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On November 17 2011 12:00 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 11:59 anonymitylol wrote:On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote:
It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban. Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all? You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage.
Not really, you have to do something extra for the program to work. Press Control + Z to star/stop timer. This is kind of like changing scenes in XSplit. I don't think this is cheating. If anything, this is a tedious task to do every time you inject larva as you have to do something else. Chances are you will eventually forget to set the timer just like you forget larva injects.
OHH, btw, there is an in game notification that the game has which alerts you whenever a mule has expired or whenever larva have popped up. This can't be cheating at all.
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On November 17 2011 14:06 Ercster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:14 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:55 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 12:49 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:47 Frozenhelfire wrote:On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote:
This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED. If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy. Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here. Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time. Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is. If you're not using ladder for practice, then what are you using it for? Now I recognize answering this question might be a little difficult for you, so I will help. LADDER IS FOR PRACTICE! YOU GAIN NOTHING FROM LADDERING BUT PRACTICE! So no, you are in fact wrong, but nice try.
Your opinion. There's people who care a great deal about ladder, I'm not one of them but there are lots out there. I've actually already answered this. Guess you're not so original.
On November 17 2011 13:46 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:42 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 17 2011 13:24 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:23 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 17 2011 13:20 Mohdoo wrote:On November 17 2011 13:16 Nemireck wrote:On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy. Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game. What's your point? My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this. As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you. Ok, what about helping bad players in tournaments? What if there was a bronze tournament with a cash prize and the winner was using outside programs? My point is the skill of the player shouldn't matter. As for laddering not mattering, that's just your opinion. As for your statement about my statement about laddering not mattering being nothing else than my opinion, that's just your opinion. In my opinion, it is a fact that that my statement about your statement where you voice your opinion about ladder not mattering was in fact an opinion and not a fact.
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On November 17 2011 14:10 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 14:06 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 13:14 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:55 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 12:49 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:47 Frozenhelfire wrote:On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote:
This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED. If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy. Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here. Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time. Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is. If you're not using ladder for practice, then what are you using it for? Now I recognize answering this question might be a little difficult for you, so I will help. LADDER IS FOR PRACTICE! YOU GAIN NOTHING FROM LADDERING BUT PRACTICE! So no, you are in fact wrong, but nice try. Your opinion. There's people who care a great deal about ladder, I'm not one of them but there are lots out there. I've actually already answered this. Guess you're not so original. Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:46 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:42 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 17 2011 13:24 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:23 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 17 2011 13:20 Mohdoo wrote:On November 17 2011 13:16 Nemireck wrote:On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy. Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game. What's your point? My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this. As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you. Ok, what about helping bad players in tournaments? What if there was a bronze tournament with a cash prize and the winner was using outside programs? My point is the skill of the player shouldn't matter. As for laddering not mattering, that's just your opinion. As for your statement about my statement about laddering not mattering being nothing else than my opinion, that's just your opinion. In my opinion, it is a fact that that my statement about your statement where you voice your opinion about ladder not mattering was in fact an opinion and not a fact.
nobody worth mentioning cares about ladder
I beg you to prove my wrong by finding someone who does
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I don't see it as cheating anymore than using the in game clock to time builds or using the hot key indicators currently do. Remember, both of these feature were originally first mods themselves. I don't see what the big deal is, this is only helpful to people in platinum and below, everyone else will already have the skill and apm necessary to time their injects. If you're afraid that less skilled players will plague the upper leagues you are just being sensationalist. First of all, the mod does not tell you in till after your larva have already spawned, which means you will already be behind on your larva injects. Those seconds will add up to several missed total injects over the course of a game.
Additionally, a player who lacks the skill and apm to keep track of their larva injects will not have the mechanics down to defeat a player significantly better than him (there is a lot more to winning as zerg than just larva injecting). Lets not forget that their already are plenty of people on the ladder who have managed to climb into the higher leagues by repeating the same cheese over again, so this is but a drop in the bucket when it comes to reducing skill on the ladder. This mod is designed for those low leaguers who forget to larva inject after the third time. It's basically just training wheels, and you would be hard pressed to convince me that someone with training wheels will win a race over a proficient bicyclist. After all, the whole point of the ladder is for practicing and entertainment, if you are using it as a source of epeen then you are doing it completely wrong, go play in some tournaments if you want to actually prove yourself.
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Oh god, I used to have the APM reader making sure my apm was above 150, because it kept me aware or more if I was playing with a high APM.
Guess thats cheating too.
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On November 17 2011 14:11 HK_TPZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 14:10 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 14:06 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 13:14 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:55 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 12:49 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:47 Frozenhelfire wrote:On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote:
This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED. If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy. Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here. Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time. Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is. If you're not using ladder for practice, then what are you using it for? Now I recognize answering this question might be a little difficult for you, so I will help. LADDER IS FOR PRACTICE! YOU GAIN NOTHING FROM LADDERING BUT PRACTICE! So no, you are in fact wrong, but nice try. Your opinion. There's people who care a great deal about ladder, I'm not one of them but there are lots out there. I've actually already answered this. Guess you're not so original. On November 17 2011 13:46 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:42 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 17 2011 13:24 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:23 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 17 2011 13:20 Mohdoo wrote:On November 17 2011 13:16 Nemireck wrote:On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy. Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game. What's your point? My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this. As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you. Ok, what about helping bad players in tournaments? What if there was a bronze tournament with a cash prize and the winner was using outside programs? My point is the skill of the player shouldn't matter. As for laddering not mattering, that's just your opinion. As for your statement about my statement about laddering not mattering being nothing else than my opinion, that's just your opinion. In my opinion, it is a fact that that my statement about your statement where you voice your opinion about ladder not mattering was in fact an opinion and not a fact. nobody worth mentioning cares about ladder I beg you to prove my wrong by finding someone who does
Who's worth mentioning? I don't need to find anyone, go ahead and put a poll up if you want to. Pros and casuals alike rage or feel good about ladder all the time. Blizzcon uses ladder for invites (couldn't this year because of drop hacks but did last year), so does GSL. I believe you need to be GM or have a certain amount of points in Korea to play in the qualifier tournament for code A. I think that covers pretty much everyone. Now you're going to say players this good don't need help with injects, and they probably don't, but you're still wrong about ladder not mattering to people.
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On November 17 2011 12:51 CrimsnDragn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 12:47 Frozenhelfire wrote:On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote:
This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED. If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy. well, it would be argued cheating because it's outside of the client that not everyone has becomes it doesn't come with the game, and this could give one person an unfair advantage. it's like at a weight lifting competition everyone lifts the same weights but if one dude comes in with steroids or super power gloves that could be cheating.
Sooo... are clocks now considered cheating too?
What about watches, are watches considered cheating?
Oven timers, well those must be cheating since not everyone has one.
This thread is getting silly, but not in a good way 
On November 17 2011 12:06 WuK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 11:59 anonymitylol wrote:On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote:
It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban. Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all? I honestly have no idea about the specifics but i guess it is the same thing that they use for maphacks and such? All i know is that back when i played WoW a lot of people were banned because they used some third party program to change the apperance of their characters so...
In other words, magic.
You know what? A guy spends his free time to make a cool little tool to help players train and be better gamers, and then is met with a wall of illogical criticism. I have a problem with that. If you don't like it, don't use it.
And gogo idiotech, I think it's great that you are contributing to the community.
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This isn't cheating people have been modding the UI for years in WOW and it's totally legit how is this any different? i used to have timers displayed on screen to keep track of dot times and other various cooldowns/timed effects. I can see how this would give players an edge but not in a way that is unfair. If this was a mod that did injects for you then that would be cheating. Konaa mentioned this isnt any more fair/unfair than eating well and getting rest. it isnt any more fair or unfair than some players having better blink stalker micro because they turn on the show unit health in the UI. or some being able to detect cloaked units better because they can play on ultra graphics settings.
UI mods are not cheating and have never been considered cheating in any game ever. However for high levels it isnt a good idea to use this since lan's wont be able to offer this setting since they most likely wont have it installed on their comp's
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As a protoss player who always tries to get better. I welcome this program into the zerg arsenal. Finally i'll be playing against master players who actually know how to larvae inject properly and can actually hit timings. So I dont get destroyed by pros all day long who can hit those timings properly.
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People should use this in customs to help better there timing, but on ladder I personally see this as a bit to easy, better to learn it with the tool and then you have the mental "tool" forever. 
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On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote:
This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
You don't have an advantage if the other guy is already perfect at larva injecting.
This is no worse than having a coach behind you telling you when to inject.
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On November 17 2011 14:20 TedJustice wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote:
This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED. You don't have an advantage if the other guy is already perfect at larva injecting. This is no worse than having a coach behind you telling you when to inject.
You're right it's exactly like having a coach next to you telling you when to inject...
How is that NOT an unfair advantage for one player?
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On November 17 2011 14:20 TedJustice wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote:
This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED. You don't have an advantage if the other guy is already perfect at larva injecting. This is no worse than having a coach behind you telling you when to inject.
Umm except nobody has perfect larvae injects except for nestea? I didn`t think that this would actually turn into a debate it just seems so blatantly obvious that its cheating to me.
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On November 17 2011 14:22 gogatorsfoster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 14:20 TedJustice wrote:On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote:
This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED. You don't have an advantage if the other guy is already perfect at larva injecting. This is no worse than having a coach behind you telling you when to inject. Umm except nobody has perfect larvae injects except for nestea? I didn`t think that this would actually turn into a debate it just seems so blatantly obvious that its cheating to me.
So if I put a stop watch on my desk and set it to beep every 32 seconds this is cheating. That's what you are arguing. Because that is all this program is, it beeps once for every interval you set it to.
Please explain what constitutes cheating. Because putting a stop watch on your desk is not cheating by even the most remote definition.
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Isn't this cheating? Also I don't want a program to make this game any more easier.
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On November 17 2011 13:54 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:44 U_G_L_Y wrote:On November 17 2011 13:39 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:37 Frozenhelfire wrote:On November 17 2011 13:33 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:27 U_G_L_Y wrote:On November 17 2011 13:19 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:18 U_G_L_Y wrote:On November 17 2011 13:14 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:55 Ercster wrote:
[quote]
Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time. Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is. Is listening to music while laddering cheating? If the music tells you what to do in game at exactly the right times then yes. That comparison doesn't even make sense. It does tell me what to do. It reminds me to cycle through my hot keys, which I would not otherwise not remember to do. This is not opinion; I have a database of thousands of BW replays and have proven that my gaming mix makes me play faster. Rhapsody is a third party program that reminds me to do things that I am not doing. Is this cheating? I have a hard time believing this is true. But if it is, and it could be, it still isn't cheating. The other guy can listen to music too. Or maybe he plays faster without music. It depends where you draw the line. Either way we're just arguing semantics. If you think listening to music to improve your play is anywhere near as egregious as possibly never missing a larva inject due to a built in reminder that the other guy probably PROBABLY doesn't have, then there's no point in discussing where to draw the line between cheating and not cheating. We'll have to agree to disagree. A built-in reminder the other guy probably doesn't have? Looks pretty built-in to me. The reminder in the OPs program is not built in. This is simply a different form of a reminder. The game has sounds and visual alerts. Yea I see it and I know it exists. It's built into the game and everyone has it. That's an entirely different matter, and from the sounds of it the in game one is not nearly as obvious. I have long been considering (but have thus far been too lazy/busy) changing my gaming mix playlist to a single song - an audio recording of me yelling "Supply, resources, minimap, 4! 5! 6! 7!" Is that cheating? I don't know, probably not, that's too weird and obscure. This feels like a political debate something where neither side can agree on where to draw the line and each side gives an example that the other can't contradict. We're not talking about music. I could say aim bot in a FPS isn't cheating because the other person has cross-hairs and knows how to aim the gun, so what's the harm in doing it for him? He would probably would do it anyway right? Maybe, maybe not.
That's the point I am making - any line you or I draw is arbitrary. So if a tournament's rules prohibit switching races mid way, or bringing your iPod into the booth, or not running Starcraft in a window, then that is the line. For the ladder, Blizzard has drawn a line, because it is their ladder. A timer or music or anything that doesn't mess with Star Craft itself is not over the line they drew. So if you're going to draw a different line, it isn't logical to put it somewhere that isn't black and white.
If you accept that shades of grey exist, and you draw your own line somewhere in the middle, that puts you in the awkward position of trying to justify why one shade of grey is tolerable but another isn't.
But speaking as an obsessive compulsive, I suppose that seeing the whole world in terms of black and white has definitely not made my life better, so I guess my position makes LESS sense, in that light...
I surrender
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On November 17 2011 14:11 HK_TPZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 14:10 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 14:06 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 13:14 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:55 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 12:49 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:47 Frozenhelfire wrote:On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote:
This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED. If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy. Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here. Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time. Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is. If you're not using ladder for practice, then what are you using it for? Now I recognize answering this question might be a little difficult for you, so I will help. LADDER IS FOR PRACTICE! YOU GAIN NOTHING FROM LADDERING BUT PRACTICE! So no, you are in fact wrong, but nice try. Your opinion. There's people who care a great deal about ladder, I'm not one of them but there are lots out there. I've actually already answered this. Guess you're not so original. On November 17 2011 13:46 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:42 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 17 2011 13:24 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:23 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 17 2011 13:20 Mohdoo wrote:On November 17 2011 13:16 Nemireck wrote:On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy. Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game. What's your point? My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this. As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you. Ok, what about helping bad players in tournaments? What if there was a bronze tournament with a cash prize and the winner was using outside programs? My point is the skill of the player shouldn't matter. As for laddering not mattering, that's just your opinion. As for your statement about my statement about laddering not mattering being nothing else than my opinion, that's just your opinion. In my opinion, it is a fact that that my statement about your statement where you voice your opinion about ladder not mattering was in fact an opinion and not a fact. nobody worth mentioning cares about ladder I beg you to prove my wrong by finding someone who does
Really? I think all of the GSL staff cares about the ladder, seeing as how Choya was punished severely for "win-trading" on the ladder. Is Mr. Chae not someone worth mentioning?
Personally, I think this tool is analogous to using a metronome for playing the piano. You can use it to practice a song, but no one you're not going to be able to bring your metronome out onto stage during a concert. Similarly, I think It's fine if you're using this tool during your own training vs CPU or something, but not while laddering vs other players.
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On November 17 2011 14:10 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 14:06 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 13:14 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:55 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 12:49 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:47 Frozenhelfire wrote:On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote:
This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED. If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy. Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here. Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time. Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is. If you're not using ladder for practice, then what are you using it for? Now I recognize answering this question might be a little difficult for you, so I will help. LADDER IS FOR PRACTICE! YOU GAIN NOTHING FROM LADDERING BUT PRACTICE! So no, you are in fact wrong, but nice try. Your opinion. There's people who care a great deal about ladder, I'm not one of them but there are lots out there. I've actually already answered this. Guess you're not so original. Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:46 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:42 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 17 2011 13:24 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:23 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 17 2011 13:20 Mohdoo wrote:On November 17 2011 13:16 Nemireck wrote:On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy. Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game. What's your point? My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this. As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you. Ok, what about helping bad players in tournaments? What if there was a bronze tournament with a cash prize and the winner was using outside programs? My point is the skill of the player shouldn't matter. As for laddering not mattering, that's just your opinion. As for your statement about my statement about laddering not mattering being nothing else than my opinion, that's just your opinion. In my opinion, it is a fact that that my statement about your statement where you voice your opinion about ladder not mattering was in fact an opinion and not a fact.
I never once said that people didn't care about ladder. All I said was that ladder is for practice (I guess I should be more clear and say that ladder is for either practice or for fun).
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This is good for people who are trying to focus on something else such as micro, and this allows them to be able to improve those skills. That said, I would be very disappointed in somebody Plat or above who used this software, because that is the are where learning your injects are key.
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On November 17 2011 11:56 Fruscainte wrote:
Useful for practice, but in ladder, 100% cheating.
Isn't ladder just practice anyway?
in tournaments, 100% cheating.
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EPT
