This is my first post on TL. I am a game developer and myself and my mate Matt were watching Showcraft today and decided to take a break from work to write a little application that will notify you when you need to inject larva. Just wanted to share it with you all and I hope it helps some of the less proficient players like myself.
(This application does not interact with the SC2 client in anyway)
You can download it for free at the following site. There is also some instructions on how to use it. If you like the tool please let me know. We are considering making one for Mules and Chronoboost.
You are going to get a lot of posts like the one above, but I don't personally mind this. People could be doing a lot worse things in my opinion like using large macros or hacks. I don't use these but I think they will be beneficial to some people. There are like 50 of these though.
You could just as easily set this up with a stopwatch. It's just a tool intended to get people in the habit of larva injecting. If you are a bad player having something beep at you every 30 seconds isn't going to fix that.
cheating... I do not like things like this, your skills should be there. MAYBE if your playing vs a computer then I can see it being ok... but I dislike this when playing real 1v1s.
"Use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the Game experience, including without limitation, mods that violate the terms of this License Agreement or the Terms of Use"
How is this cheating? You get a mental clock eventually anyway...how is this different to beginners using metronomes to stutterstep, eventually you just do it automatically
It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all?
On November 17 2011 11:57 Ruscour wrote: How is this cheating? You get a mental clock eventually anyway...how is this different to beginners using metronomes to stutterstep, eventually you just do it automatically
The difference being that you can't use a metronome during a competition or an exam.
I'm pretty sure you this fits Battle.net's definition of cheating, i.e. someone can report you if you use this during a game (even though I don't see how they will detect you are using it). Maybe it will help you when practicing, I don't know, but it will 100% be unfair if you use it on ladder.
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all?
You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage.
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all?
You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage.
Once again: How will Blizzard know? They won't, is what I'm trying to say. Are you going to e-mail Blizzard and tell them you're using that program? They can only track programs that actually modify the SC2 client (MPQ editors, etc.)
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all?
probably Blizzard nor your opponent will notice that u are using it on ladder, but I'm fairly sure that this kind of software won't be allowed on any kind of tournament
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all?
I honestly have no idea about the specifics but i guess it is the same thing that they use for maphacks and such? All i know is that back when i played WoW a lot of people were banned because they used some third party program to change the apperance of their characters so...
Cheating? A reminder to larva inject (doesn't actually do anything in game)? Get a grip all. You do realize that Pro's train with people talking in their ear when training and playing, even laddering. People also copy builds and timing pushes but because, by almost the same logic, they didn't come up with the build that could be cheating. Grow the flip up. This is a training tool.
It's identical to having a friend behind you saying "INJECT" when he spots the notification. It's advantagous but certainly not unfairly so. It doesn't allow you to do anything that anyone else can't do.
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all?
You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage.
Once again: How will Blizzard know? They won't, is what I'm trying to say. Are you going to e-mail Blizzard and tell them you're using that program? They can only track programs that actually modify the SC2 client (MPQ editors, etc.)
OMG a third party program! That means no Skype either. They have an in game chat, but you're using third party program! lol this conversation is laughable. Definitely not cheating.
Been done before, and it gets really off if you miss an inject. Honestly not worth getting, unless you can never miss an inject no matter what's happening.
This is not cheating. You can have a timer next to you and hit it everytime you inject too. It's called timing and helps you build that sense of injecting. You people are ridiculous.
Have any of the people in this thread read the front page articles on expertise studies? They've shown a hundred times over that to get better at something the best method is to train specific tasks until they're ingrained in your memory. Cheating blah blah blah.... total and complete misunderstanding of how to get better at something.
On November 17 2011 12:02 Existential wrote: Pretty sure this is cheating. I don't know why you would want to make SC2 easier for yourself anyway.
nothing beats the satisfaction knowing that you get to win games with training wheels. apparently.
Have you ever followed a build order on the internet? Training wheels...
lol, i think that the majority of people on this forum can agree that using a program to hit larvae injects is quite a bit more shady than executing a build order.
On November 17 2011 12:02 Existential wrote: Pretty sure this is cheating. I don't know why you would want to make SC2 easier for yourself anyway.
nothing beats the satisfaction knowing that you get to win games with training wheels. apparently.
Have you ever followed a build order on the internet? Training wheels...
lol, i think that the majority of people on this forum can agree that using a program to hit larvae injects is quite a bit more shady than executing a build order.
But yet you give no reasons other than "agreeing". Please contribute to the conversation with actual points and not nonsense.
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all?
You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage.
On November 17 2011 12:26 GMonster wrote: there were things like this in wc3, you got banned for using if it uses the client (sc2) in any way. cheating.
Good chance anyone using can get banned.
lmao. It's like people aren't even reading the OP or bothering to look at the actual program. It's just a TIMER. It's like having a clock next to you, or a friend sitting next to you to tell you every 32 seconds that you should creep inject. Nothing to do with the SC2 client, and there's no way for Blizzard to ever find out. And once again, who the fuck cares. It's just a clock.
On November 17 2011 12:26 GMonster wrote: there were things like this in wc3, you got banned for using if it uses the client (sc2) in any way. cheating.
Good chance anyone using can get banned.
lmao. It's like people aren't even reading the OP or bothering to look at the actual program. It's just a TIMER. It's like having a clock next to you, or a friend sitting next to you to tell you every 32 seconds that you should creep inject. Nothing to do with the SC2 client, and there's no way for Blizzard to ever find out. And once again, who the fuck cares. It's just a clock.
Having a friend next to you in a booth at a tourney and telling you your timings would definitely be cheating. Remembering your timings - even ones as minor as inject larva - is a huge part of sc2, and a 3rd party program that gives an uneven advantage in that area, regardless of skill, is cheating. End of story. You can argue about the scale of the cheating, or whether you can get away with it, but it remains cheating.
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all?
You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage.
Once again: How will Blizzard know? They won't, is what I'm trying to say. Are you going to e-mail Blizzard and tell them you're using that program? They can only track programs that actually modify the SC2 client (MPQ editors, etc.)
Just because they won't find out, doesn't mean it's wrong. Go for it, use the program for practice. If you really love the game and want to have fun, you won't use the program on ladder or tournament matches.
Besides, how hard is it to tap 4, tap 5, go back to what you were doing, tap 4, tap 5, repeat.
I do think that this is cheating slightly, however I don't think that there is anything anybody can do about it. Blizzard could try to set up Warden (their anti-cheating software) to handle it, however I doubt this.
On November 17 2011 12:26 GMonster wrote: there were things like this in wc3, you got banned for using if it uses the client (sc2) in any way. cheating.
Good chance anyone using can get banned.
lmao. It's like people aren't even reading the OP or bothering to look at the actual program. It's just a TIMER. It's like having a clock next to you, or a friend sitting next to you to tell you every 32 seconds that you should creep inject. Nothing to do with the SC2 client, and there's no way for Blizzard to ever find out. And once again, who the fuck cares. It's just a clock.
Having a friend next to you in a booth at a tourney and telling you your timings would definitely be cheating. Remembering your timings - even ones as minor as inject larva - is a huge part of sc2, and a 3rd party program that gives an uneven advantage in that area, regardless of skill, is cheating. End of story. You can argue about the scale of the cheating, or whether you can get away with it, but it remains cheating.
Although I don't support the used of this software, I don't think you define cheating correctly. Sure, there are a lot of things you can't use in a tournament booth. Like skype. or alt tabbing to check your email. Does that influence your game play? sure. on skype your friend might say something like "lol cheese him", and of course that affects your game play.
just because you have it running parallel to the game doesn't mean it's cheating. doesn't mean i advocate it's use either. I don't think this is how you learn inject timings; if anything, it'll make it worse. Kind of like how some pro players talk about learning to use the minimap cues by playing with the game sound off, rather than design a software that blow fireworks on your screen every time the game says "your x is under attack"
If you have to use this in a tourney, you shouldn't be in the tourney. Same as if you need someone to set next to you and tell you what to do, you shouldn't be there.
How many people have been in a ladder match and a mate has said oh you missed that? OMG Filthy cheaters.
This doesn't interact with the SC2 client in anyway. I could construct an elaborate pendulum system to hit me in the head precisely every 32 seconds and it would accomplish the same thing.
I think this is probably bad if you hope to get good at injecting, instead of learning the timing you will just learn to react to the alert. Unless you expect to use that forever I don't really see the point.
On November 17 2011 12:26 GMonster wrote: there were things like this in wc3, you got banned for using if it uses the client (sc2) in any way. cheating.
Good chance anyone using can get banned.
lmao. It's like people aren't even reading the OP or bothering to look at the actual program. It's just a TIMER. It's like having a clock next to you, or a friend sitting next to you to tell you every 32 seconds that you should creep inject. Nothing to do with the SC2 client, and there's no way for Blizzard to ever find out. And once again, who the fuck cares. It's just a clock.
Having a friend next to you in a booth at a tourney and telling you your timings would definitely be cheating. Remembering your timings - even ones as minor as inject larva - is a huge part of sc2, and a 3rd party program that gives an uneven advantage in that area, regardless of skill, is cheating. End of story. You can argue about the scale of the cheating, or whether you can get away with it, but it remains cheating.
Although I don't support the used of this software, I don't think you define cheating correctly. Sure, there are a lot of things you can't use in a tournament booth. Like skype. or alt tabbing to check your email. Does that influence your game play? sure. on skype your friend might say something like "lol cheese him", and of course that affects your game play.
just because you have it running parallel to the game doesn't mean it's cheating. doesn't mean i advocate it's use either. I don't think this is how you learn inject timings; if anything, it'll make it worse. Kind of like how some pro players talk about learning to use the minimap cues by playing with the game sound off, rather than design a software that blow fireworks on your screen every time the game says "your x is under attack"
Huge difference between a timer that makes you land your injects and a friend on skype saying "lol cheese him". One gives an uneven advantage, another just makes you change your strategy, which if you read my post, is what I defined as cheating - something that gives an uneven advantage to a player regardless of skill.
On November 17 2011 12:41 VarnishedOtter wrote: If you have to use this in a tourney, you shouldn't be in the tourney. Same as if you need someone to set next to you and tell you what to do, you shouldn't be there.
How many people have been in a ladder match and a mate has said oh you missed that? OMG Filthy cheaters.
This doesn't interact with the SC2 client in anyway. I could construct an elaborate pendulum system to hit me in the head precisely every 32 seconds and it would accomplish the same thing.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here.
This is an external influence over you while you are playing. That's very different from an activity which is self-contained by yourself. You're essentially equating this tool to practicing. Better luck next time!
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
well, it would be argued cheating because it's outside of the client that not everyone has becomes it doesn't come with the game, and this could give one person an unfair advantage. it's like at a weight lifting competition everyone lifts the same weights but if one dude comes in with steroids or super power gloves that could be cheating.
This is an external influence over you while you are playing. That's very different from an activity which is self-contained by yourself. You're essentially equating this tool to practicing. Better luck next time!
No I'm not. Lifting weights isn't practicing for a sport unless the sport is weight lifting. If you're playing something like hand egg (foot ball American version) then no, it isn't practice.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
well, it would be argued cheating because it's outside of the client that not everyone has becomes it doesn't come with the game, and this could give one person an unfair advantage. it's like at a weight lifting competition everyone lifts the same weights but if one dude comes in with steroids or super power gloves that could be cheating.
Weights are outside of any sport technically. They are widely available but not everyone has innate access to them. It generally takes more work to acquire weights, be it going to the gym or buying them, then using something like this or an online stop watch.
So when I listen to to my gaming playlist when I ladder I am cheating. BW chart clearly showed that my hand speed was lower when I didn't listen to my punk/ska gaming mix. Like 20 APM lower.
So when Ret meets Stephano on the ladder and Ret doesn't happen to be listing to Bob Marley, Stephano is cheating!
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here.
Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time.
On November 17 2011 11:48 Gamegene wrote: I consider larva injects a good measure of how strong a Zerg player is. This is just way too artificial for me... ;;
This is an external influence over you while you are playing. That's very different from an activity which is self-contained by yourself. You're essentially equating this tool to practicing. Better luck next time!
No I'm not. Lifting weights isn't practicing for a sport unless the sport is weight lifting. If you're playing something like hand egg (foot ball American version) then no, it isn't practice.
Let me try explaining this another way:
Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
This is an external influence over you while you are playing. That's very different from an activity which is self-contained by yourself. You're essentially equating this tool to practicing. Better luck next time!
No I'm not. Lifting weights isn't practicing for a sport unless the sport is weight lifting. If you're playing something like hand egg (foot ball American version) then no, it isn't practice.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
well, it would be argued cheating because it's outside of the client that not everyone has becomes it doesn't come with the game, and this could give one person an unfair advantage. it's like at a weight lifting competition everyone lifts the same weights but if one dude comes in with steroids or super power gloves that could be cheating.
Weights are outside of any sport technically. They are widely available but not everyone has innate access to them. It generally takes more work to acquire weights, be it going to the gym or buying them, then using something like this or an online stop watch.
What? yeah okay, but does that mean coming into sc2 with bw background is cheating? how about, to practice for sc2, I go play bw to improve my mechanics? much the same way a basketball player or whatever can lift weights to hopefully improve his abilities.
This is an external influence over you while you are playing. That's very different from an activity which is self-contained by yourself. You're essentially equating this tool to practicing. Better luck next time!
No I'm not. Lifting weights isn't practicing for a sport unless the sport is weight lifting. If you're playing something like hand egg (foot ball American version) then no, it isn't practice.
Let me try explaining this another way:
Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy.
This I can more or less agree with. Like i said, Im not in favor of this software because I could see how it could be cheating, and that's because you get do get an unfair advantage (like a 3rd party loud reminder to inject your larva) during the game.
On November 17 2011 11:48 Gamegene wrote: I consider larva injects a good measure of how strong a Zerg player is. This is just way too artificial for me... ;;
what?
A good way of determining the skill of a Zerg player is to see if he misses larva injects. Nestea, for example, misses very few if any.
Nor would it be cheating to write a program that logs keystrokes and sets a timer after V+click not preceded by B (build overlords).
Nor would it be cheating to have a build order coach inform you what to build at specific times.
If you're dependent on these aids to play then you'll never be able to preempt these triggers and so your mind will always be 1 second behind the crucial timings. Deep strategy comes from thinking 10 steps in the future, and interruptions like this need to become habitual.
It's about as useful as your adviser reminding you to construct additional pylons... if you do not already know to build them then you are in big trouble.
It's kind of a cheat but in the same way as the in game timer, except everyone has access to that one. I dont think it's a big thing to get angry about, as long as it's not being used in tournaments. How does it work when you have multiple hatcheries anyways?
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all?
You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage.
Indeed,
So if a 2v2 team uses Skype they're cheating? Get real.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here.
You act like other people can't download this program too. Weights are harder to get than this. Weights cost money, and some generally require machines. Most people need a gym membership or live in dorms or apartments that have a public facility with weights. A more accurate analogy to steroids would be using a blink hack or a map hack.
On November 17 2011 13:00 dgwow wrote: It's kind of a cheat but in the same way as the in game timer, except everyone has access to that one. I dont think it's a big thing to get angry about, as long as it's not being used in tournaments. How does it work when you have multiple hatcheries anyways?
You could write a program that clusters groups of similar-time injections and alerts you when the entire cluster is ready for injection, setting a cluster-size to whatever you want.
This isn't a crutch, this isn't a cheat tool. It's a practice tool. You eventually won't need it because you'll have this beep in your brain. It's meant to be used and then left alone, it would NEVER be allowed in a tourney anywhere.
I don't understand what the issue is, these guys make a tool to help the community in their first post and get flamed. gg TL.
If it is completely external and just uses like a 29 second timer or whatever its perfectly fine, though not in tourneys probably. As long as it doesn't use the sc2 memory. Its little different from terrans using a metronome for stutter micro which is also perfectly allowed.
Also these things generally get really screwed if you miss injects or 2/3 hatcheries. Much better to just get in the habbit of checking the hatcheries individually
i'm not really sure why so many people are complaining on here and screaming about cheating. blizz put a notification IN GAME to tell you when larva was done, so honestly this program is pretty useless, especially considering the fact that they never factor in the time it takes to inject. and if you miss one, what are you going to do? wait until the next beep? if a bad player is in the middle of doing something is he really going to be accustomed to jumping back and larva injecting? there's so many things wrong with people's assumptions. bottom line is bad players will still be bad using this. good players won't need it.
This is an external influence over you while you are playing. That's very different from an activity which is self-contained by yourself. You're essentially equating this tool to practicing. Better luck next time!
No I'm not. Lifting weights isn't practicing for a sport unless the sport is weight lifting. If you're playing something like hand egg (foot ball American version) then no, it isn't practice.
On November 17 2011 12:51 CrimsnDragn wrote:
On November 17 2011 12:47 Frozenhelfire wrote:
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
well, it would be argued cheating because it's outside of the client that not everyone has becomes it doesn't come with the game, and this could give one person an unfair advantage. it's like at a weight lifting competition everyone lifts the same weights but if one dude comes in with steroids or super power gloves that could be cheating.
Weights are outside of any sport technically. They are widely available but not everyone has innate access to them. It generally takes more work to acquire weights, be it going to the gym or buying them, then using something like this or an online stop watch.
What? yeah okay, but does that mean coming into sc2 with bw background is cheating? how about, to practice for sc2, I go play bw to improve my mechanics? much the same way a basketball player or whatever can lift weights to hopefully improve his abilities..
Did I say weights were cheating? Learn to read. I was making the point that just because something is outside of a game doesn't mean it is cheating. Weights are outside of football (American) but every player uses weights. Football players don't lug weights around the field during a game.
This is an external influence over you while you are playing. That's very different from an activity which is self-contained by yourself. You're essentially equating this tool to practicing. Better luck next time!
No I'm not. Lifting weights isn't practicing for a sport unless the sport is weight lifting. If you're playing something like hand egg (foot ball American version) then no, it isn't practice.
Let me try explaining this another way:
Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy.
Where in the tool does it say that it is strictly for ladder use? Why couldn't someone use it against a friend or computer in custom matches? Try interchanging the weight lifting to energy drinks or sports drinks. Sports drinks aren't a part of the game but they give athletes that use them advantages.
On November 17 2011 11:48 Gamegene wrote: I consider larva injects a good measure of how strong a Zerg player is. This is just way too artificial for me... ;;
what?
A good way of determining the skill of a Zerg player is to see if he misses larva injects. Nestea, for example, misses very few if any.
my what meant "rofl omg what noob Zerg misses injects"
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here.
Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time.
Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is.
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all?
You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage.
SC2Gears is a 3rd party program as well. As far as I know, this program here doesn't inject anything to StarCraft 2. If anyone honestly thinks this is cheating, I feel sorry for you :p
On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote: Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy.
Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here.
Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time.
Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here.
Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time.
Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is.
Is listening to music while laddering cheating?
If the music tells you what to do in game at exactly the right times then yes. That comparison doesn't even make sense.
If player A plays gold level without the software and platinum with, how does that affect player B who plays platinum level as well. Blizzard's match making system works very well. As far as tournaments go, the software wouldnt change anything in important matches.
On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote: Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy.
Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game.
What's your point?
My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this.
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all?
You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage.
SC2Gears is a 3rd party program as well. As far as I know, this program here doesn't inject anything to StarCraft 2. If anyone honestly thinks this is cheating, I feel sorry for you :p
SC2gears doesn't influence your play while you are in a game. The issue is using something to help you while you are in a game against another player.
On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote: Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy.
Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game.
What's your point?
My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this.
As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you.
On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote: Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy.
Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game.
What's your point?
My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this.
As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you.
Ok, what about helping bad players in tournaments? What if there was a bronze tournament with a cash prize and the winner was using outside programs? My point is the skill of the player shouldn't matter.
As for laddering not mattering, that's just your opinion.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here.
Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time.
Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is.
Is listening to music while laddering cheating?
If the music tells you what to do in game at exactly the right times then yes. That comparison doesn't even make sense.
It does tell me what to do. It reminds me to cycle through my hot keys, which I would not otherwise not remember to do. This is not opinion; I have a database of thousands of BW replays and have proven that my gaming mix makes me play faster. Rhapsody is a third party program that reminds me to do things that I am not doing. Is this cheating?
Reading the strategy forum might give you an advantage over your opponent. Just like the inject timer though, it isn't an unfair advantage. It doesn't allow you to do anything you couldn't otherwise do.
I want my opponents on the ladder to be as good as they can possibly be and hope that people use all tools they can to bring their best possible game.
On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote: Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy.
Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game.
What's your point?
My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this.
As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you.
The vast majority of players will never make a single dime playing SC2. Its ridiculous to act like anything besides a televised match is important. Being a master league player, I was surprised when I realized that my gold/silver friends actually take the game seriously and try to improve, but its true. The game is intended to be a competitive atmosphere, and someone not making money doing it does not mean that it isn't important to them. By your logic, nothing competitive should be taken seriously at all unless there is big money or fame involved. Your argument completely ignores the competitive aspect of the game, which is the focus of the vast majority of the people who play it.
I don't even play the game much anymore, but its pretty rude to say that something a lot of people actively enjoy doing is useless. It also ignores the reality for a huge amount of people.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here.
Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time.
Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is.
Is listening to music while laddering cheating?
If the music tells you what to do in game at exactly the right times then yes. That comparison doesn't even make sense.
It does tell me what to do. It reminds me to cycle through my hot keys, which I would not otherwise not remember to do. This is not opinion; I have a database of thousands of BW replays and have proven that my gaming mix makes me play faster. Rhapsody is a third party program that reminds me to do things that I am not doing. Is this cheating?
I have a hard time believing this is true. But if it is, and it could be, it still isn't cheating. The other guy can listen to music too. Or maybe he plays faster without music. It depends where you draw the line.
Either way we're just arguing semantics. If you think listening to music to improve your play is anywhere near as egregious as possibly never missing a larva inject due to a built in reminder that the other guy PROBABLY doesn't have, then there's no point in discussing where to draw the line between cheating and not cheating. We'll have to agree to disagree.
I think this might be useful for practice or something.
On November 17 2011 13:13 idiotech wrote: Didn't intend for my first post to start a flame war... lol
LOL don't worry you could post what you had for lunch and it would produce some kind of flame war...
I don't think this is cheating, someone who is bad is still gonna miss an inject when the timer goes off then the timer will be fucked and then its useless anyway.
Its good for helping create a mental clock to get better... In the end I think this well help a lot of players because a lot of lower level zergs are really bad at injects.
On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote: Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy.
Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game.
What's your point?
My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this.
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all?
You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage.
SC2Gears is a 3rd party program as well. As far as I know, this program here doesn't inject anything to StarCraft 2. If anyone honestly thinks this is cheating, I feel sorry for you :p
SC2gears doesn't influence your play while you are in a game. The issue is using something to help you while you are in a game against another player.
True, but SC2gears helps influence your game outside the game. I mean if people are making a big deal out of this little program, just get some sort of external timer on the internet so when you inject your larva, you can just set a hot key so it can beep every 30 seconds.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here.
Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time.
Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is.
Is listening to music while laddering cheating?
If the music tells you what to do in game at exactly the right times then yes. That comparison doesn't even make sense.
It does tell me what to do. It reminds me to cycle through my hot keys, which I would not otherwise not remember to do. This is not opinion; I have a database of thousands of BW replays and have proven that my gaming mix makes me play faster. Rhapsody is a third party program that reminds me to do things that I am not doing. Is this cheating?
I have a hard time believing this is true. But if it is, and it could be, it still isn't cheating. The other guy can listen to music too. Or maybe he plays faster without music. It depends where you draw the line.
Either way we're just arguing semantics. If you think listening to music to improve your play is anywhere near as egregious as possibly never missing a larva inject due to a built in reminder that the other guy probably PROBABLY doesn't have, then there's no point in discussing where to draw the line between cheating and not cheating. We'll have to agree to disagree.
A built-in reminder the other guy probably doesn't have? Looks pretty built-in to me. The reminder in the OPs program is not built in. This is simply a different form of a reminder. The game has sounds and visual alerts.
On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote: Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy.
Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game.
What's your point?
My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this.
As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you.
Ok, what about helping bad players in tournaments? What if there was a bronze tournament with a cash prize and the winner was using outside programs? My point is the skill of the player shouldn't matter.
As for laddering not mattering, that's just your opinion.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here.
Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time.
Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is.
Is listening to music while laddering cheating?
If the music tells you what to do in game at exactly the right times then yes. That comparison doesn't even make sense.
It does tell me what to do. It reminds me to cycle through my hot keys, which I would not otherwise not remember to do. This is not opinion; I have a database of thousands of BW replays and have proven that my gaming mix makes me play faster. Rhapsody is a third party program that reminds me to do things that I am not doing. Is this cheating?
I have a hard time believing this is true. But if it is, and it could be, it still isn't cheating. The other guy can listen to music too. Or maybe he plays faster without music. It depends where you draw the line.
Either way we're just arguing semantics. If you think listening to music to improve your play is anywhere near as egregious as possibly never missing a larva inject due to a built in reminder that the other guy probably PROBABLY doesn't have, then there's no point in discussing where to draw the line between cheating and not cheating. We'll have to agree to disagree.
A built-in reminder the other guy probably doesn't have? Looks pretty built-in to me. The reminder in the OPs program is not built in. This is simply a different form of a reminder. The game has sounds and visual alerts.
Yea I see it and I know it exists. It's built into the game and everyone has it. That's an entirely different matter, and from the sounds of it the in game one is not nearly as obvious.
On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote: Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy.
Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game.
What's your point?
My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this.
As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you.
The vast majority of players will never make a single dime playing SC2. Its ridiculous to act like anything besides a televised match is important. Being a master league player, I was surprised when I realized that my gold/silver friends actually take the game seriously and try to improve, but its true. The game is intended to be a competitive atmosphere, and someone not making money doing it does not mean that it isn't important to them. By your logic, nothing competitive should be taken seriously at all unless there is big money or fame involved. Your argument completely ignores the competitive aspect of the game, which is the focus of the vast majority of the people who play it.
I don't even play the game much anymore, but its pretty rude to say that something a lot of people actively enjoy doing is useless. It also ignores the reality for a huge amount of people.
I never said useless. Ladder and the amateur competitiveness can serve as recreation.
Nice program, good to see more of these tools for learning.
This is a tool for learning. Using it in a tournament would be cheating, using it to practice your inject timings is perfectly acceptable and a good idea for getting them down solidly.
On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote: Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy.
Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game.
What's your point?
My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this.
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all?
You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage.
SC2Gears is a 3rd party program as well. As far as I know, this program here doesn't inject anything to StarCraft 2. If anyone honestly thinks this is cheating, I feel sorry for you :p
SC2gears doesn't influence your play while you are in a game. The issue is using something to help you while you are in a game against another player.
SC2 gears has a built-in APM alert that you can use as a reminder when you start to get lazy. Is it cheating to use it?
On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote: Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy.
Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game.
What's your point?
My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this.
As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you.
Ok, what about helping bad players in tournaments? What if there was a bronze tournament with a cash prize and the winner was using outside programs? My point is the skill of the player shouldn't matter.
As for laddering not mattering, that's just your opinion.
As for your statement about my statement about laddering not mattering being nothing else than my opinion, that's just your opinion.
On November 17 2011 12:47 Frozenhelfire wrote: [quote]
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here.
Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time.
Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is.
Is listening to music while laddering cheating?
If the music tells you what to do in game at exactly the right times then yes. That comparison doesn't even make sense.
It does tell me what to do. It reminds me to cycle through my hot keys, which I would not otherwise not remember to do. This is not opinion; I have a database of thousands of BW replays and have proven that my gaming mix makes me play faster. Rhapsody is a third party program that reminds me to do things that I am not doing. Is this cheating?
I have a hard time believing this is true. But if it is, and it could be, it still isn't cheating. The other guy can listen to music too. Or maybe he plays faster without music. It depends where you draw the line.
Either way we're just arguing semantics. If you think listening to music to improve your play is anywhere near as egregious as possibly never missing a larva inject due to a built in reminder that the other guy probably PROBABLY doesn't have, then there's no point in discussing where to draw the line between cheating and not cheating. We'll have to agree to disagree.
A built-in reminder the other guy probably doesn't have? Looks pretty built-in to me. The reminder in the OPs program is not built in. This is simply a different form of a reminder. The game has sounds and visual alerts.
Yea I see it and I know it exists. It's built into the game and everyone has it. That's an entirely different matter, and from the sounds of it the in game one is not nearly as obvious.
I have long been considering (but have thus far been too lazy/busy) changing my gaming mix playlist to a single song - an audio recording of me yelling "Supply, resources, minimap, 4! 5! 6! 7!"
On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote: Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy.
Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game.
What's your point?
My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this.
As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you.
Ok, what about helping bad players in tournaments? What if there was a bronze tournament with a cash prize and the winner was using outside programs? My point is the skill of the player shouldn't matter.
As for laddering not mattering, that's just your opinion.
As for your statement about my statement about laddering not mattering being nothing else than my opinion, that's just your opinion.
In my opinion, it is a fact that that my statement about your statement where you voice your opinion about ladder not mattering was in fact an opinion and not a fact.
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here.
Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time.
Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is.
Is listening to music while laddering cheating?
If the music tells you what to do in game at exactly the right times then yes. That comparison doesn't even make sense.
It does tell me what to do. It reminds me to cycle through my hot keys, which I would not otherwise not remember to do. This is not opinion; I have a database of thousands of BW replays and have proven that my gaming mix makes me play faster. Rhapsody is a third party program that reminds me to do things that I am not doing. Is this cheating?
I have a hard time believing this is true. But if it is, and it could be, it still isn't cheating. The other guy can listen to music too. Or maybe he plays faster without music. It depends where you draw the line.
Either way we're just arguing semantics. If you think listening to music to improve your play is anywhere near as egregious as possibly never missing a larva inject due to a built in reminder that the other guy probably PROBABLY doesn't have, then there's no point in discussing where to draw the line between cheating and not cheating. We'll have to agree to disagree.
A built-in reminder the other guy probably doesn't have? Looks pretty built-in to me. The reminder in the OPs program is not built in. This is simply a different form of a reminder. The game has sounds and visual alerts.
Yea I see it and I know it exists. It's built into the game and everyone has it. That's an entirely different matter, and from the sounds of it the in game one is not nearly as obvious.
I have long been considering (but have thus far been too lazy/busy) changing my gaming mix playlist to a single song - an audio recording of me yelling "Supply, resources, minimap, 4! 5! 6! 7!"
Is that cheating?
yes ---
how do you sleep at night knowing that you play unfair!?!?
In case someone's sarcasm detector doesnt work, I agree with the guy whom I quote.
On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote: Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy.
Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game.
What's your point?
My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this.
As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you.
Ok, what about helping bad players in tournaments? What if there was a bronze tournament with a cash prize and the winner was using outside programs? My point is the skill of the player shouldn't matter.
As for laddering not mattering, that's just your opinion.
As for your statement about my statement about laddering not mattering being nothing else than my opinion, that's just your opinion.
In my opinion, it is a fact that that my statement about your statement where you voice your opinion about ladder not mattering was in fact an opinion and not a fact.
I don't get where all this cheating nonsense is coming from. Are you playing to win or get better? Do you prefer to play against better or worse players?
In the end, this is just a tool used to get better.
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here.
Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time.
Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is.
Is listening to music while laddering cheating?
If the music tells you what to do in game at exactly the right times then yes. That comparison doesn't even make sense.
It does tell me what to do. It reminds me to cycle through my hot keys, which I would not otherwise not remember to do. This is not opinion; I have a database of thousands of BW replays and have proven that my gaming mix makes me play faster. Rhapsody is a third party program that reminds me to do things that I am not doing. Is this cheating?
I have a hard time believing this is true. But if it is, and it could be, it still isn't cheating. The other guy can listen to music too. Or maybe he plays faster without music. It depends where you draw the line.
Either way we're just arguing semantics. If you think listening to music to improve your play is anywhere near as egregious as possibly never missing a larva inject due to a built in reminder that the other guy probably PROBABLY doesn't have, then there's no point in discussing where to draw the line between cheating and not cheating. We'll have to agree to disagree.
A built-in reminder the other guy probably doesn't have? Looks pretty built-in to me. The reminder in the OPs program is not built in. This is simply a different form of a reminder. The game has sounds and visual alerts.
Yea I see it and I know it exists. It's built into the game and everyone has it. That's an entirely different matter, and from the sounds of it the in game one is not nearly as obvious.
I have long been considering (but have thus far been too lazy/busy) changing my gaming mix playlist to a single song - an audio recording of me yelling "Supply, resources, minimap, 4! 5! 6! 7!"
Is that cheating?
I don't know, probably not, that's too weird and obscure. This feels like a political debate something where neither side can agree on where to draw the line and each side gives an example that the other can't contradict. We're not talking about music.
I could say aim bot in a FPS isn't cheating because the other person has cross-hairs and knows how to aim the gun, so what's the harm in doing it for him? He would probably would do it anyway right? Maybe, maybe not.
Checked it out.., looks great my man. I'm actually really loving the Critical Mass game you have on your website. Real neat.. Reminds me a lot of the Tetrisphere 64 game.. Oh man does it bring back memories.. Keep it up buddy
On November 17 2011 11:48 Gamegene wrote: I consider larva injects a good measure of how strong a Zerg player is. This is just way too artificial for me... ;;
what?
A good way of determining the skill of a Zerg player is to see if he misses larva injects. Nestea, for example, misses very few if any.
my what meant "rofl omg what noob Zerg misses injects"
You fail to recognize that that is not something that is easily doable when in high micro situations. Since you obviously don't know what you're talking about, you should probably watch replays of pro Zergs and see how often they miss larva injects. You will see that it happens quite often. So I guess what I meant was, "HAHAHA you're a fucking idiot, as you clearly are just talking out of your ass HAHAHA."
The problem is that this program is specifically targeted to assist with larvae injects, not just a song. Songs are different, they don't specifically target certain timings such as larvae injects and/or any other timing (Supply, random timing pushes, etc.)
On November 17 2011 11:48 Gamegene wrote: I consider larva injects a good measure of how strong a Zerg player is. This is just way too artificial for me... ;;
what?
A good way of determining the skill of a Zerg player is to see if he misses larva injects. Nestea, for example, misses very few if any.
my what meant "rofl omg what noob Zerg misses injects"
You fail to recognize that that is not something that is easily doable when in high micro situations. Since you obviously don't know what you're talking about, you should probably watch replays of pro Zergs and see how often they miss larva injects. You will see that it happens quite often. So I guess what I meant was, "HAHAHA you're a fucking idiot, as you clearly are just talking out of your ass HAHAHA."
You talk about missing injects while being busy with something else?
remind me, gentleman, how the software would help someone to multitask better
As long as this doesn't edit the SC2 client in anyway it's not cheating. It would be the same as recording yourself saying and playing back "Inject" every 32 seconds.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here.
Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time.
Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is.
If you're not using ladder for practice, then what are you using it for? Now I recognize answering this question might be a little difficult for you, so I will help. LADDER IS FOR PRACTICE! YOU GAIN NOTHING FROM LADDERING BUT PRACTICE!
lol @ this being considered as cheating. Remember how everybody was like "Yea! Ingame timer is BS! Broodwar didn't have ingame timer! That's cheating" and now everybody's using it? yea
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all?
You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage.
Not really, you have to do something extra for the program to work. Press Control + Z to star/stop timer. This is kind of like changing scenes in XSplit. I don't think this is cheating. If anything, this is a tedious task to do every time you inject larva as you have to do something else. Chances are you will eventually forget to set the timer just like you forget larva injects.
OHH, btw, there is an in game notification that the game has which alerts you whenever a mule has expired or whenever larva have popped up. This can't be cheating at all.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here.
Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time.
Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is.
If you're not using ladder for practice, then what are you using it for? Now I recognize answering this question might be a little difficult for you, so I will help. LADDER IS FOR PRACTICE! YOU GAIN NOTHING FROM LADDERING BUT PRACTICE!
So no, you are in fact wrong, but nice try.
Your opinion. There's people who care a great deal about ladder, I'm not one of them but there are lots out there. I've actually already answered this. Guess you're not so original.
On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote: Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy.
Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game.
What's your point?
My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this.
As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you.
Ok, what about helping bad players in tournaments? What if there was a bronze tournament with a cash prize and the winner was using outside programs? My point is the skill of the player shouldn't matter.
As for laddering not mattering, that's just your opinion.
As for your statement about my statement about laddering not mattering being nothing else than my opinion, that's just your opinion.
In my opinion, it is a fact that that my statement about your statement where you voice your opinion about ladder not mattering was in fact an opinion and not a fact.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here.
Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time.
Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is.
If you're not using ladder for practice, then what are you using it for? Now I recognize answering this question might be a little difficult for you, so I will help. LADDER IS FOR PRACTICE! YOU GAIN NOTHING FROM LADDERING BUT PRACTICE!
So no, you are in fact wrong, but nice try.
Your opinion. There's people who care a great deal about ladder, I'm not one of them but there are lots out there. I've actually already answered this. Guess you're not so original.
On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote: Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy.
Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game.
What's your point?
My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this.
As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you.
Ok, what about helping bad players in tournaments? What if there was a bronze tournament with a cash prize and the winner was using outside programs? My point is the skill of the player shouldn't matter.
As for laddering not mattering, that's just your opinion.
As for your statement about my statement about laddering not mattering being nothing else than my opinion, that's just your opinion.
In my opinion, it is a fact that that my statement about your statement where you voice your opinion about ladder not mattering was in fact an opinion and not a fact.
nobody worth mentioning cares about ladder
I beg you to prove my wrong by finding someone who does
I don't see it as cheating anymore than using the in game clock to time builds or using the hot key indicators currently do. Remember, both of these feature were originally first mods themselves. I don't see what the big deal is, this is only helpful to people in platinum and below, everyone else will already have the skill and apm necessary to time their injects. If you're afraid that less skilled players will plague the upper leagues you are just being sensationalist. First of all, the mod does not tell you in till after your larva have already spawned, which means you will already be behind on your larva injects. Those seconds will add up to several missed total injects over the course of a game.
Additionally, a player who lacks the skill and apm to keep track of their larva injects will not have the mechanics down to defeat a player significantly better than him (there is a lot more to winning as zerg than just larva injecting). Lets not forget that their already are plenty of people on the ladder who have managed to climb into the higher leagues by repeating the same cheese over again, so this is but a drop in the bucket when it comes to reducing skill on the ladder. This mod is designed for those low leaguers who forget to larva inject after the third time. It's basically just training wheels, and you would be hard pressed to convince me that someone with training wheels will win a race over a proficient bicyclist. After all, the whole point of the ladder is for practicing and entertainment, if you are using it as a source of epeen then you are doing it completely wrong, go play in some tournaments if you want to actually prove yourself.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here.
Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time.
Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is.
If you're not using ladder for practice, then what are you using it for? Now I recognize answering this question might be a little difficult for you, so I will help. LADDER IS FOR PRACTICE! YOU GAIN NOTHING FROM LADDERING BUT PRACTICE!
So no, you are in fact wrong, but nice try.
Your opinion. There's people who care a great deal about ladder, I'm not one of them but there are lots out there. I've actually already answered this. Guess you're not so original.
On November 17 2011 13:46 hitpoint wrote:
On November 17 2011 13:42 HK_TPZ wrote:
On November 17 2011 13:24 hitpoint wrote:
On November 17 2011 13:23 HK_TPZ wrote:
On November 17 2011 13:20 Mohdoo wrote:
On November 17 2011 13:16 Nemireck wrote:
On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote: Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy.
Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game.
What's your point?
My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this.
As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you.
Ok, what about helping bad players in tournaments? What if there was a bronze tournament with a cash prize and the winner was using outside programs? My point is the skill of the player shouldn't matter.
As for laddering not mattering, that's just your opinion.
As for your statement about my statement about laddering not mattering being nothing else than my opinion, that's just your opinion.
In my opinion, it is a fact that that my statement about your statement where you voice your opinion about ladder not mattering was in fact an opinion and not a fact.
nobody worth mentioning cares about ladder
I beg you to prove my wrong by finding someone who does
Who's worth mentioning? I don't need to find anyone, go ahead and put a poll up if you want to. Pros and casuals alike rage or feel good about ladder all the time. Blizzcon uses ladder for invites (couldn't this year because of drop hacks but did last year), so does GSL. I believe you need to be GM or have a certain amount of points in Korea to play in the qualifier tournament for code A. I think that covers pretty much everyone. Now you're going to say players this good don't need help with injects, and they probably don't, but you're still wrong about ladder not mattering to people.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
well, it would be argued cheating because it's outside of the client that not everyone has becomes it doesn't come with the game, and this could give one person an unfair advantage. it's like at a weight lifting competition everyone lifts the same weights but if one dude comes in with steroids or super power gloves that could be cheating.
Sooo... are clocks now considered cheating too?
What about watches, are watches considered cheating?
Oven timers, well those must be cheating since not everyone has one.
This thread is getting silly, but not in a good way
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all?
I honestly have no idea about the specifics but i guess it is the same thing that they use for maphacks and such? All i know is that back when i played WoW a lot of people were banned because they used some third party program to change the apperance of their characters so...
In other words, magic.
You know what? A guy spends his free time to make a cool little tool to help players train and be better gamers, and then is met with a wall of illogical criticism. I have a problem with that. If you don't like it, don't use it.
And gogo idiotech, I think it's great that you are contributing to the community.
This isn't cheating people have been modding the UI for years in WOW and it's totally legit how is this any different? i used to have timers displayed on screen to keep track of dot times and other various cooldowns/timed effects. I can see how this would give players an edge but not in a way that is unfair. If this was a mod that did injects for you then that would be cheating. Konaa mentioned this isnt any more fair/unfair than eating well and getting rest. it isnt any more fair or unfair than some players having better blink stalker micro because they turn on the show unit health in the UI. or some being able to detect cloaked units better because they can play on ultra graphics settings.
UI mods are not cheating and have never been considered cheating in any game ever. However for high levels it isnt a good idea to use this since lan's wont be able to offer this setting since they most likely wont have it installed on their comp's
As a protoss player who always tries to get better. I welcome this program into the zerg arsenal. Finally i'll be playing against master players who actually know how to larvae inject properly and can actually hit timings. So I dont get destroyed by pros all day long who can hit those timings properly.
People should use this in customs to help better there timing, but on ladder I personally see this as a bit to easy, better to learn it with the tool and then you have the mental "tool" forever.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
You don't have an advantage if the other guy is already perfect at larva injecting.
This is no worse than having a coach behind you telling you when to inject.
Umm except nobody has perfect larvae injects except for nestea? I didn`t think that this would actually turn into a debate it just seems so blatantly obvious that its cheating to me.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
You don't have an advantage if the other guy is already perfect at larva injecting.
This is no worse than having a coach behind you telling you when to inject.
Umm except nobody has perfect larvae injects except for nestea? I didn`t think that this would actually turn into a debate it just seems so blatantly obvious that its cheating to me.
So if I put a stop watch on my desk and set it to beep every 32 seconds this is cheating. That's what you are arguing. Because that is all this program is, it beeps once for every interval you set it to.
Please explain what constitutes cheating. Because putting a stop watch on your desk is not cheating by even the most remote definition.
On November 17 2011 12:55 Ercster wrote: [quote] Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time.
Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is.
Is listening to music while laddering cheating?
If the music tells you what to do in game at exactly the right times then yes. That comparison doesn't even make sense.
It does tell me what to do. It reminds me to cycle through my hot keys, which I would not otherwise not remember to do. This is not opinion; I have a database of thousands of BW replays and have proven that my gaming mix makes me play faster. Rhapsody is a third party program that reminds me to do things that I am not doing. Is this cheating?
I have a hard time believing this is true. But if it is, and it could be, it still isn't cheating. The other guy can listen to music too. Or maybe he plays faster without music. It depends where you draw the line.
Either way we're just arguing semantics. If you think listening to music to improve your play is anywhere near as egregious as possibly never missing a larva inject due to a built in reminder that the other guy probably PROBABLY doesn't have, then there's no point in discussing where to draw the line between cheating and not cheating. We'll have to agree to disagree.
A built-in reminder the other guy probably doesn't have? Looks pretty built-in to me. The reminder in the OPs program is not built in. This is simply a different form of a reminder. The game has sounds and visual alerts.
Yea I see it and I know it exists. It's built into the game and everyone has it. That's an entirely different matter, and from the sounds of it the in game one is not nearly as obvious.
I have long been considering (but have thus far been too lazy/busy) changing my gaming mix playlist to a single song - an audio recording of me yelling "Supply, resources, minimap, 4! 5! 6! 7!"
Is that cheating?
I don't know, probably not, that's too weird and obscure. This feels like a political debate something where neither side can agree on where to draw the line and each side gives an example that the other can't contradict. We're not talking about music.
I could say aim bot in a FPS isn't cheating because the other person has cross-hairs and knows how to aim the gun, so what's the harm in doing it for him? He would probably would do it anyway right? Maybe, maybe not.
That's the point I am making - any line you or I draw is arbitrary. So if a tournament's rules prohibit switching races mid way, or bringing your iPod into the booth, or not running Starcraft in a window, then that is the line. For the ladder, Blizzard has drawn a line, because it is their ladder. A timer or music or anything that doesn't mess with Star Craft itself is not over the line they drew. So if you're going to draw a different line, it isn't logical to put it somewhere that isn't black and white.
If you accept that shades of grey exist, and you draw your own line somewhere in the middle, that puts you in the awkward position of trying to justify why one shade of grey is tolerable but another isn't.
But speaking as an obsessive compulsive, I suppose that seeing the whole world in terms of black and white has definitely not made my life better, so I guess my position makes LESS sense, in that light...
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here.
Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time.
Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is.
If you're not using ladder for practice, then what are you using it for? Now I recognize answering this question might be a little difficult for you, so I will help. LADDER IS FOR PRACTICE! YOU GAIN NOTHING FROM LADDERING BUT PRACTICE!
So no, you are in fact wrong, but nice try.
Your opinion. There's people who care a great deal about ladder, I'm not one of them but there are lots out there. I've actually already answered this. Guess you're not so original.
On November 17 2011 13:46 hitpoint wrote:
On November 17 2011 13:42 HK_TPZ wrote:
On November 17 2011 13:24 hitpoint wrote:
On November 17 2011 13:23 HK_TPZ wrote:
On November 17 2011 13:20 Mohdoo wrote:
On November 17 2011 13:16 Nemireck wrote:
On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote: Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy.
Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game.
What's your point?
My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this.
As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you.
Ok, what about helping bad players in tournaments? What if there was a bronze tournament with a cash prize and the winner was using outside programs? My point is the skill of the player shouldn't matter.
As for laddering not mattering, that's just your opinion.
As for your statement about my statement about laddering not mattering being nothing else than my opinion, that's just your opinion.
In my opinion, it is a fact that that my statement about your statement where you voice your opinion about ladder not mattering was in fact an opinion and not a fact.
nobody worth mentioning cares about ladder
I beg you to prove my wrong by finding someone who does
Really? I think all of the GSL staff cares about the ladder, seeing as how Choya was punished severely for "win-trading" on the ladder. Is Mr. Chae not someone worth mentioning?
Personally, I think this tool is analogous to using a metronome for playing the piano. You can use it to practice a song, but no one you're not going to be able to bring your metronome out onto stage during a concert. Similarly, I think It's fine if you're using this tool during your own training vs CPU or something, but not while laddering vs other players.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here.
Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time.
Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is.
If you're not using ladder for practice, then what are you using it for? Now I recognize answering this question might be a little difficult for you, so I will help. LADDER IS FOR PRACTICE! YOU GAIN NOTHING FROM LADDERING BUT PRACTICE!
So no, you are in fact wrong, but nice try.
Your opinion. There's people who care a great deal about ladder, I'm not one of them but there are lots out there. I've actually already answered this. Guess you're not so original.
On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote: Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy.
Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game.
What's your point?
My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this.
As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you.
Ok, what about helping bad players in tournaments? What if there was a bronze tournament with a cash prize and the winner was using outside programs? My point is the skill of the player shouldn't matter.
As for laddering not mattering, that's just your opinion.
As for your statement about my statement about laddering not mattering being nothing else than my opinion, that's just your opinion.
In my opinion, it is a fact that that my statement about your statement where you voice your opinion about ladder not mattering was in fact an opinion and not a fact.
I never once said that people didn't care about ladder. All I said was that ladder is for practice (I guess I should be more clear and say that ladder is for either practice or for fun).
This is good for people who are trying to focus on something else such as micro, and this allows them to be able to improve those skills. That said, I would be very disappointed in somebody Plat or above who used this software, because that is the are where learning your injects are key.
Look, another thread where people desperately try to say that something is inherently different because it's done on the same machine as the one the game is being played on rather than a physically separate one!
...Yeah. Do people really believe that something being digital somehow makes it magically more advantageous than anything else?
I guess I'll have to turn of the Windows Timer, too, since I happen to have that running in the background. It's unfair to have a visible clock on the screen, since not everybody plays in windowed mode.
@Fruscainte: I think anon was talking about the fact that Blizzard would have no idea of knowing he was running that 3rd party program, it doesn't modify the client in any way. Only way really would be to find this thread, track down his blizz id, and then ban it. Personally if you're just using it as a tool to improve in practice, I don't see anything wrong with it. Using it in any sort of tournament environment would definitely be cheating though.
On November 17 2011 11:57 Ruscour wrote: beginners using metronomes to stutterstep,
Head=blown.
Guys get off your white horses lol. Clearly they just made it for practise. I think it's ok to use it up till mid-masters, since still up to that point you clearly have a problem with mechanics which you need to improve. I would be perfectly fine if somebody from gold league used that against me.
Are you guys so hardcore that something used to make your game mechanics better is cheating? Even at the high levels of masters, using something like this is hardly considered cheating... There is a reminder on the left side of the screen even that notifies you of the inject completion. So I guess SCII is cheating too? It's just another sense (hearing) being used instead of visual. I don't understand. if you're at the high levels of diamond/masters, then you shouldn't be missing larva injects anyways, at least until mid-late game, and if you do, it's just helping you fix that error. Calling this on the same level of maphacking or large macro is completely ridiculous.
On November 17 2011 14:03 LanTAs wrote: The problem is that this program is specifically targeted to assist with larvae injects, not just a song. Songs are different, they don't specifically target certain timings such as larvae injects and/or any other timing (Supply, random timing pushes, etc.)
So if my song's lyrics repeat "Supply, mini-map, 4, 5, 6, 7!" then it isn't okay because it targets something specific, but if it generally makes me keep my APM high due to the beat (or to put it another way, is an audio file that is slightly more difficult to benefit from,) then it is okay?
What if I have a song that changes from bridge to chorus every 32 seconds and I set that on repeat? Because it is a more obscure, is that okay? Who is the judge of how obscure these reminders have to be?
This is a pretty interesting line you are trying to draw here.
As a Protoss player, I say: use this program as much as you want, I hope it makes you better and soon you won't need it. If you always need it, then that's fine. Use it against me in a money tournament even, I DGAF - more power to you.
It's only an indicator. If it was tied to the game and actually waited for the inject ability to be ready, then IMO that would be cheating, but this system is pretty innocent.
Also, I don't know how the app works but I would suggest that if it's basically a sound loop, the sound should be progressive. For instance if you inject every 32 seconds (if that's the actual timing), at 29 seconds into the loop, the notification should start beeping, getting progressively louder and stop at 32 seconds. Just a thought.
On November 17 2011 14:34 GhandiEAGLE wrote: This is good for people who are trying to focus on something else such as micro, and this allows them to be able to improve those skills. That said, I would be very disappointed in somebody Plat or above who used this software, because that is the are where learning your injects are key.
So the morality of the issue is based on league placement...
Its okay in Gold but not Platinum. What if I'm in Gold and I'm matched against a Platinum player and don't know it before hand? What's the moral thing to do in this situation?
I think the appropriate thing to do is if I win the game in that situation, I need to call Blizzard and ask that they remove the win from my record, and send a check for the pro-rated minimum wage in my opponent's state to compensate him for defrauding him out of his playing time with my cheater software.
I don't think this is cheating. It's like a friend sitting beside you telling you to inject. It's like looking at game time.
OKAY it's a third party program and SHOULD NEVER be used in competitive matches but obviously it won't. Makes learning a little easier for people, chill.
There is no morality to this, geez. I've been thinking for a long time about practicing some zerg play with a stopwatch timer. I know people make notes of build orders on a notepad to follow along.
This is not cheating. It does not give the opponent a disadvantage, and if anything for players who aren't already close to this timer, they'll struggle to use it properly beyond the 10 minute mark anyway, as always.
Besides, if you miss an inject and do it halfway, your timer becomes useless.
Anyway, I can't believe people consider this cheating. Next I'll hear skype is cheating, or having someone give you tips while you play. League placement is a non issue in this. It's a non issue for live tournaments, and honestly not even an issue for online tournaments since all of the above is just distracting at a high level.
On November 17 2011 11:48 idiotech wrote: It just a tool to help people learn
Weeeeeelll.. You could argue that a bot spreading creep for you is to focus on other stuff and hence help learning. You could argue that a maphack is to learn how different builds look at different times without checking out replays.
Not sure how much I like this, but then again zerg is the race I play the least, so probably biased. Just saying that argument doesn't hold water.
This is an excellent tool for playing customs with your friends, or during practice. However, if you were to use this on the ladder, it should be considered cheating. The competition of Starcraft assumes that both players are equal in the physical resources available to them. Use of this add-on obviously tips the equilibrium against the player not using it, even if that player has perfect injects.
I don't condemn the program that has been developed here. I condemn the improper use of this program.
holy shit, idiotech i applaud you taking all the shit from stupid TL forumers.
as a programmer, it doesn't encourage me to do ANYTHING for the community if something thats the same as a fucking STOPWATCH is flamed and incites hatred and accusations of 'fostering/propagating cheating' from the masses.
good job on the tools. IMO its a good learning tool and even on ladder, its not cheating because do you consider watching a fucking wall clock or your watch cheating? NO.
I don't understand how people can say using this on ladder is ok, but not in a tournament. Ladder is competitive play as well, even Blizzard states this.
On November 17 2011 16:37 Panzerfaust7 wrote: whats the chances you can get banned from this??
Honestly? 0.
This isn't cheating by Blizzard's standards. For those of you who have made your own standards (which seem rather illogical to me btw), fine. Just don't use it =p
I played a zvz once on ladder, after I absolutely crushed him with macro advantage, he messaged me that he was mid masters player smurfing in diamond league, and he said he should have crushed me but he did not have a macro that injects automatically for him on his computer he was using at that moment. I just felt so sad about these cheaters. I mean if you rely on the timer to inject, the muscle memory you are building is to the timer not the injects itself. It is pretty much like the inject macro I was talking about.
A clear advantage that you will never be able to use in a tournament setting. It's better to learn by "feeling", or just keep checking up on things(both of these will improve your game greatly, whereas using the timer will not). But I guess if you're just looking to ladder, whatever you like I guess. Seems interesting.
On November 17 2011 17:13 lhr0909 wrote: I played a zvz once on ladder, after I absolutely crushed him with macro advantage, he messaged me that he was mid masters player smurfing in diamond league, and he said he should have crushed me but he did not have a macro that injects automatically for him on his computer he was using at that moment. I just felt so sad about these cheaters. I mean if you rely on the timer to inject, the muscle memory you are building is to the timer not the injects itself. It is pretty much like the inject macro I was talking about.
Must be interesting being an elitist, we should talk about it sometime, except I'd have nothing to say.
1) You're opponent is a crybaby. People tell me that they would have won if my race wasn't what it was (random btw) when perhaps I just played better? Shocking I know. When I lose, it's because I'm a shit player hahaha.
2) The muscle memory does combine with the audio instinct, they are not mutually exclusive. The human body can multitask =P
3) Inject macro is cheating. It does things, in game, for you. Name 1 thing a timer which does something every 32 seconds does in game? One, please. In game.
Soooooooooo, if anything from what you've said, the people who use the timers are potentially worse players without them? Of course, that's why they're using this to train.
I hear in rugby league/union/nfl that they train using 'touch' rules, but apparently that doesn't make your physical conditioning for taking a proper tackle in a real game any better. Best tell real sports they've been cheating for years. Honestly, this is how I relate it. Timer let's you focus on maybe some non-inject macro or army micro, but at the same time only reminds you to inject. Players only need to mistime it once (easy to do) and then it's annoying.
On November 17 2011 16:46 nath wrote: holy shit, idiotech i applaud you taking all the shit from stupid TL forumers.
as a programmer, it doesn't encourage me to do ANYTHING for the community if something thats the same as a fucking STOPWATCH is flamed and incites hatred and accusations of 'fostering/propagating cheating' from the masses.
good job on the tools. IMO its a good learning tool and even on ladder, its not cheating because do you consider watching a fucking wall clock or your watch cheating? NO.
also whats your game studio? pm me!
Hi, Yeah it's generally not this bad. However, when we released our game we did receive a fair amount of hate. I think it's just par for the course. Our studio is manic game studios, we released our game critical mass on steam a few months back now
This discussion is retarded. I don't see how this will help you as you still have to do the actual inject part yourself, and do so exactly on time so the timer won't be off. And how are bronzies who "micro" supposed to get off their ass "microing" and get back to most likely a single hatchery (seeing as bronzies tend to 1base alot), inject (most likely with mouse clicks) and then screen scroll back to the battle to "micro" some more. About the software, it's probably useful to SOME, but still completely unnecesary for just about everyone above silver league. Not cheating, just a bad reminding tool that anyone could setup themselves.
No harsh feelings bronzies, you are hillarious to watch <3
EDIT
holy shit, idiotech i applaud you taking all the shit from stupid TL forumers.
as a programmer, it doesn't encourage me to do ANYTHING for the community if something thats the same as a fucking STOPWATCH is flamed and incites hatred and accusations of 'fostering/propagating cheating' from the masses.
good job on the tools. IMO its a good learning tool and even on ladder, its not cheating because do you consider watching a fucking wall clock or your watch cheating? NO.
Thanks, always glad to see programmers developing tools for the community. Do you think you could add an option to customize the Activate/Reactivate hotkey?
Shift+Z isn't a good hotkey for some people because it conflicts with certain commands and prevents you from pressing Shift+Z. People that use Grid hotkeys frequently need to press Shift+Z in SC2. And anyone that uses 'Z' as a custom hotkey could have problems too (for example, I have Patrol assigned to Z, I can't queue a Patrol order while running this program).
I'm sure a lot of us would appreciate it if you could add a way to reassign the hotkey, or maybe just change the hotkey to something else that won't conflict (Alt+Z seems like a good choice). Thanks
On November 17 2011 16:46 Blackthorne wrote: I don't understand how people can say using this on ladder is ok, but not in a tournament. Ladder is competitive play as well, even Blizzard states this.
blizzard also doesnt care about ladder[as much]. they're not going to balance the game based off of ladder results but they will look at tournaments
This is a useless tool imo and its also cheating in any form of competitive game.
1) You do not build muscle memory to your queens energy, only to this "sound". Allowing you to become lazy and not bother tabbing around your hatches to check your queens, reducing your overall APM and brainspeed anyway, probably reducing how often you check the minimap, production and a number of things too.
2) Its fucking cheating on ladder, tournaments and anything like them. Illegal 100%, you would probably be banned from Bnet if it was found and for sure from any respectful tournament.
On November 17 2011 16:46 Blackthorne wrote: I don't understand how people can say using this on ladder is ok, but not in a tournament. Ladder is competitive play as well, even Blizzard states this.
blizzard also doesnt care about ladder[as much]. they're not going to balance the game based off of ladder results but they will look at tournaments
WRONG. I dont know if you just arrived at this scene or are completely ignoring anything major coming from blizzard. They have always stated (as dustin browder did at blizzcon interviews multiple times they want to balance the game from the low to the high. They analyse the ladder win % and more in order to get an overall view of the 3 races in the game (im talking win % across all regions not just korea, land of the "pro's") so yeah, they are looking to balance from the ladder results, tournaments too, but ladder is very much a part of balancing for blizzard.
On November 17 2011 19:11 lysergic wrote: Thanks, always glad to see programmers developing tools for the community. Do you think you could add an option to customize the Activate/Reactivate hotkey?
Shift+Z isn't a good hotkey for some people because it conflicts with certain commands and prevents you from pressing Shift+Z. People that use Grid hotkeys frequently need to press Shift+Z in SC2. And anyone that uses 'Z' as a custom hotkey could have problems too (for example, I have Patrol assigned to Z, I can't queue a Patrol order while running this program).
I'm sure a lot of us would appreciate it if you could add a way to reassign the hotkey, or maybe just change the hotkey to something else that won't conflict (Alt+Z seems like a good choice). Thanks
it is possible for us to add this feature. We did this as a side project today during work. If we get some free time we will look at adding this feature. I personally use grid and haven't had an issue yet.
On November 17 2011 19:31 soulist wrote: Im pretty sure this is considered a 3rd party tool therefore illegal and will get you banned.
xDDDDDDDD
This is an app that can be written in any PL in ~ 10 minutes. I can use it to determine when I should go grab my fucking eggs from the water.
It most definitely won't get you banned, since it has 0 (zero) interaction with the game. It's a cool app, and I'm sure it will help some people improve a bit.
On the other hand, I think it shows that maybe the whole Larva Inject mechanic is a bit flawed - probably not the best piece of design that they could come up with.
On November 17 2011 19:36 idiotech wrote: Also guys you might want to go read the terms of service before you start saying that this is "illegal".
Its not "illegal" in physical prospect. Your program does not interfere with SC2 / battlenet client at all, so no it isnt "Illegal"
Does it break the rules of the game? Yes. Is it unfair? Yes. Would blizzard tell you its a great thing to do? Hell fuck no. Would tournaments let you use it? Nope.
Would ANYONE you played using it tell you "oh thats awesome man, well done for beating me!"? doubt it very much.
I think this is considered cheating, if you look at the wording in the blizz ToS, what with it being a third party software and all. However, you could just have a stopclock running or w/e, so i really dont think it's that big a deal. I would not be against using it vs prac partners andd computers, however i can see why some people would feel like they are at a disadvantage when playing against someone who is using this, if they are not. But then again, you could just set up a stopwatch on your desk, which would not be cheating...
Also, to all those saying that they dont understand why you would do this, it gives you a really good feel for when your injects are done, so that, when you stop using it, you will already have the rythm ingrained in your play.
Conclusion: Cheating, according to the Tos, however, a stopwatch on your desk would do the same thing, and would not be cheating. Definetlhy a usefull tool for learning.
Seriously what is all this about? Nearly everyone is using third party programmes (be it skype,sc2gears,...). Are those cheating? No. From the logic of most of you if i play with my game sounds and inject pops (yes it makes sound) and i just inject again did i just cheat?
On November 17 2011 19:49 Veriol wrote: Seriously what is all this about? Nearly everyone is using third party programmes (be it skype,sc2gears,...). Are those cheating? No.
ehhhh yes it is?!?!?( well maybe not sc2gears cause it's mainly used for replay analyzing ) but anything that helps you to improve your game drastically without having to practice
On November 17 2011 20:02 ntssauce wrote: ehhhh yes it is?!?!?( well maybe not sc2gears cause it's mainly used for replay analyzing ) but anything that helps you to improve your game drastically without having to practice
Who says this improves your game without practising? It makes you practice.
It doesn't magically make you win games, it helps you to practise and get in your head that you have to larva/mule/chrono every x seconds until you don't need it anymore.
I don't see how it's cheating. Blizzard even put in their own notification for injects. IT IS NO DIFFERENT. Bottom line, it won't even make a fucking if you don't have the apm. This is the same with the in-game notification. Everyone has the notifications on but it doesn't mean everyone is having perfect injects. It comes down to awareness ( and awareness of the timer) and apm anyway. This is no different to copying a build order from a piece of paper. Eventually it won't be needed.
Lol, players are so lazy to check their bases more often?
Also, it's not cheating and Blizzard can't ban you for that, because you can launch this programm in real life, on other notebook nearby, or turn on timer-tiker in mobile phone or ipad or other.
It just seems like a really poor idea to use this and get used to having some external timer to depend on instead of the internal timings you've developed by grinding through a bunch of games. I wouldn't call it cheating at all though.
On November 17 2011 20:22 ThePlayer33 wrote: I really dont care if people use this on ladder. If you're good you can make GM versus people who use it.
My main main main main concern, is the use of this program in online qualifiers and tournaments.
MASSIVE PROBLEM right there.
It's a training tool. If a masters and above level player uses this and couldn't do almost the same without it I would be shocked and retract a lot of statements. But really, do masters players really forget to larva inject over simply choosing to focus on other aspects of the game which might happen at the 32 second mark.
Also, I know this might either be me mis-remembering or giving everyone a total shock: but I believe Blizzard included a spawn larva expiry in game alert...WHEN THE LARVA SPAWNS! D=
That means, Blizzard do this in game already, soooooooooo~
In a way this is unnecessary and helpful at the same time since it will remind you how sub optimal your play is.
And if this is a third party tool, then firefox notepad and skype all have a lot to answer for!
this is cheating. maybe im biased because im coming from an fps background where you had to do all those timings in your head and this was frowned upon.
if youre strictly using it in practise game where your enemy knows AND approves what youre doing or using it against a cpu to get inject timings into your head ok, i can see a point. but this tends to people getting lazy (ie. the timer does it for me, why should i bother?)
a way more effective training method is just actively focusing on the task at hand.
f.e. ive played so much unreal ive got a 54sec timer built into my brain, seriously ive played a little lately and i still instinctively almost always get the timings right without paying any attention to it. thats how training works, if you use this tool dont get complacent.
oh and there should be no way for sc2 to detect this unless it checks what other tools are running on your computer and recognises this as a hack. btw, just because something its undetectable doesnt make it not cheating.
Total Biscuit was using something like this on his stream last night since he was trying out Zerg (and loving it!)
He somehow still managed to miss so many injects it hurt watching him play
I think it can be helpful but for alot of Zergs the problem with injects is that they are doing other things and don't have the APM to do it on time. Having said that i think some sort of timer which just beeps every 30seconds would be very helpful for me, because it would remind me to do things, not just inject (inject, creep, overlords, money, make stuff)
On November 17 2011 21:08 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote: I think it can be helpful but for alot of Zergs the problem with injects is that they are doing other things and don't have the APM to do it on time. Having said that i think some sort of timer which just beeps every 30seconds would be very helpful for me, because it would remind me to do things, not just inject (inject, creep, overlords, money, make stuff)
You don't understand, the problem in the first place is not that you don't have the APM, it's just your general approach of mechanics. The fact that you have to remind yourself of doing stuff like this is your problem, not that you don't have "any time".
The APM will come with the right approach and training time, but finding the right approach is the real issue here.
I already use a training app on my phone to do the same think. I don't think it's cheating, just the same as you wouldn't consider using a keyboard with a custom layout cheating.
Guys its just a stopwatch going off at set intervals this is not cheating lol, it would be cheating if it was coded into the client so it took your literal injections and told you when to do the next one.
looolll at extreme over reacting on every tl thread
I`m sure you just meant good, but I feel it is important to get a feeling for all the timings (includings macro abilitys like inject, chrono and mule) and therefore I recommend not to use it.
so the guys who dont consider this cheating, where do you draw the line? how about a timer that goes off at important attack timings, or to remind you to get detection/turrets etc? or something that centers the screen on your hatches when the larva is finished and then takes you back to where you were before. and when were that far it might aswell do it automatically amirite? we could also implement something that tells you what units to get or to send out scouts at various intervals. maybe a little help splitting your army? or a tool that beeps as soon as an enemy unit is visible on the minimap.
seriously, if you use this on ladder dont fool yourselves. youre cheating. regardless if youre using this tool, a stopwatch, an old brit with a pocket watch or a trained orangutan.
On November 17 2011 21:31 paschl wrote: so the guys who dont consider this cheating, where do you draw the line? how about a timer that goes off at important attack timings, or to remind you to get detection/turrets etc? or something that centers the screen on your hatches when the larva is finished and then takes you back to where you were before. and when were that far it might aswell do it automatically amirite? we could also implement something that tells you what units to get or to send out scouts at various intervals. maybe a little help splitting your army? or a tool that beeps as soon as an enemy unit is visible on the minimap.
seriously, if you use this on ladder dont fool yourselves. youre cheating. regardless if youre using this tool, a stopwatch, an old brit with a pocket watch or a trained orangutan.
Do you really not understand the obvious difference between something that interacts with the game and something that DOES NOT interact with the game?
How do some people manage to register an account Oo
On November 17 2011 21:31 paschl wrote: so the guys who dont consider this cheating, where do you draw the line? how about a timer that goes off at important attack timings, or to remind you to get detection/turrets etc? or something that centers the screen on your hatches when the larva is finished and then takes you back to where you were before. and when were that far it might aswell do it automatically amirite? we could also implement something that tells you what units to get or to send out scouts at various intervals. maybe a little help splitting your army? or a tool that beeps as soon as an enemy unit is visible on the minimap.
seriously, if you use this on ladder dont fool yourselves. youre cheating. regardless if youre using this tool, a stopwatch, an old brit with a pocket watch or a trained orangutan.
this program does neither read nor analyze any ingame information, that's were you draw the line.
using a program to help you play is always some kind of cheating
And I doubt this will actually help playing better at all: I don't have problems knowing when to inject, but I sometimes just don't have the time to do it - which means i have to improve my handspeed/apm, having some program telling me my injects need to be done won't improve this anyway
For Terran and Toss it sounds completely useless, as already stated.
Sigh at so many people comparing it to other stuff as an argument for not beeing cheating..
Anyone outside help, be it a BO list on your other monitor, timed beeps for w/e it is. Another guy sitting next to you obsing the minimap, they're all advantages that makes it unfair for your opponent. If it's not a leveled playingfield, there's cheating involed.
However, used in practice this tool can be rather useless, aslong as you don't get lazy and rely on the beep instead of trying to get used to it and predict it.
On November 17 2011 21:31 paschl wrote: so the guys who dont consider this cheating, where do you draw the line? how about a timer that goes off at important attack timings, or to remind you to get detection/turrets etc? or something that centers the screen on your hatches when the larva is finished and then takes you back to where you were before. and when were that far it might aswell do it automatically amirite? we could also implement something that tells you what units to get or to send out scouts at various intervals. maybe a little help splitting your army? or a tool that beeps as soon as an enemy unit is visible on the minimap.
seriously, if you use this on ladder dont fool yourselves. youre cheating. regardless if youre using this tool, a stopwatch, an old brit with a pocket watch or a trained orangutan.
Do you really not understand the obvious difference between something that interacts with the game and something that DOES NOT interact with the game?
How do some people manage to register an account Oo
oh but i do. im just wondering where people draw the line and tried to pull the argument out of proportion. also please dont release your worked up anger on a forum, it doesnt really help to make your points. and i <3 you. seriously.
good to see so many think of such stuff as cheating :3, makes you think you are actually in a fair environment on ladder, where no one uses any sort of tool to increase their play. Also interesting that this should help your training ... guess you would get the timing faster in your head by just concentrating on it. While the timer would just throw you off if its not there at first.
But anyway most games show that people that are using tools don't progress in their abilities and once tempted they normally never go back and stagnate. So i don't mind if people use tools, at some point you will leave them in the dust behind you ^.^ .
Obviously people who read an optimized build order from the internet on their second monitor have an unfair advantage over their opponent that has to do it all from memory. According to 90% of the logic in this thread, these people should be banned as well.
On November 17 2011 21:31 paschl wrote: so the guys who dont consider this cheating, where do you draw the line? how about a timer that goes off at important attack timings, or to remind you to get detection/turrets etc? or something that centers the screen on your hatches when the larva is finished and then takes you back to where you were before. and when were that far it might aswell do it automatically amirite? we could also implement something that tells you what units to get or to send out scouts at various intervals. maybe a little help splitting your army? or a tool that beeps as soon as an enemy unit is visible on the minimap.
seriously, if you use this on ladder dont fool yourselves. youre cheating. regardless if youre using this tool, a stopwatch, an old brit with a pocket watch or a trained orangutan.
Do you really not understand the obvious difference between something that interacts with the game and something that DOES NOT interact with the game?
How do some people manage to register an account Oo
oh but i do. im just wondering where people draw the line and tried to pull the argument out of proportion. also please dont release your worked up anger on a forum, it doesnt really help to make your points. and i <3 you. seriously.
You draw the line where the ToS/Blizzard tells you to draw it, or where your tournament organiser tells you to draw it.
I cant really tell this apart from having a friend or a coach standing next to you and saying "hey, you missed an inject"... noone would ever consider that cheating... anyways, the game allready notifies you when larva pops, so if you watch the edge of your screen, you dont even have to use a program like that... what would be cool though, would be if someone actually made a zerg training map, where it notifies you about larvae with a sound or something... that way, you could train yourself in real game situations (unlike most practice maps out there) while learning the inject timings...
On November 17 2011 21:31 paschl wrote: so the guys who dont consider this cheating, where do you draw the line? how about a timer that goes off at important attack timings, or to remind you to get detection/turrets etc? or something that centers the screen on your hatches when the larva is finished and then takes you back to where you were before. and when were that far it might aswell do it automatically amirite? we could also implement something that tells you what units to get or to send out scouts at various intervals. maybe a little help splitting your army? or a tool that beeps as soon as an enemy unit is visible on the minimap.
seriously, if you use this on ladder dont fool yourselves. youre cheating. regardless if youre using this tool, a stopwatch, an old brit with a pocket watch or a trained orangutan.
Do you really not understand the obvious difference between something that interacts with the game and something that DOES NOT interact with the game?
How do some people manage to register an account Oo
oh but i do. im just wondering where people draw the line and tried to pull the argument out of proportion. also please dont release your worked up anger on a forum, it doesnt really help to make your points. and i <3 you. seriously.
You draw the line where the ToS/Blizzard tells you to draw it, or where your tournament organiser tells you to draw it.
/sigh
so if there is a gray area in the ToS or a tourneys rules that does allow (or doesnt forbid) you to use a bot its not cheating?
If you want to learn about larva inject timings, just learn how to tab. There are a lot of great resources on tabbing methods to keep track of injects accurately and efficiently. Go check out Day[9] Daily #360 to find a great first person view tutorial.
Trying to get a feel for inject timings via this program won't do much, especially if your injects ever get off sync. With tabbing you will never miss it. With this program you will run into trouble really fast.
On November 17 2011 21:31 paschl wrote: so the guys who dont consider this cheating, where do you draw the line? how about a timer that goes off at important attack timings, or to remind you to get detection/turrets etc? or something that centers the screen on your hatches when the larva is finished and then takes you back to where you were before. and when were that far it might aswell do it automatically amirite? we could also implement something that tells you what units to get or to send out scouts at various intervals. maybe a little help splitting your army? or a tool that beeps as soon as an enemy unit is visible on the minimap.
seriously, if you use this on ladder dont fool yourselves. youre cheating. regardless if youre using this tool, a stopwatch, an old brit with a pocket watch or a trained orangutan.
Do you really not understand the obvious difference between something that interacts with the game and something that DOES NOT interact with the game?
How do some people manage to register an account Oo
oh but i do. im just wondering where people draw the line and tried to pull the argument out of proportion. also please dont release your worked up anger on a forum, it doesnt really help to make your points. and i <3 you. seriously.
You draw the line where the ToS/Blizzard tells you to draw it, or where your tournament organiser tells you to draw it.
/sigh
so if there is a gray area in the ToS or a tourneys rules that does allow (or doesnt forbid) you to use a bot its not cheating?
If there's a certain *whatever* (granting you an advantage) that is clearly not prohibited, then yes, it's not cheating. Such is the nature of competition. People are going to do whatever it takes to get ahead.
And obviously, if it's something abusive that was looked over, admins will take notice and reevaluate their rules.
Extrapolating to this discussion, since this is a 20 lines program that interacts with the game as much as your MSN messenger (as in, not at all), you can't label it as a "hack".
And that's where the unfriendly tone in my earlier post came from - trying to explain a simple, simple concept to someone that just refuses to understand it does create some frustration. It's all chemistry, I guess.
The only implication that is worth discussing about this is in a tournament setting - however, I think this is a moot point, since I'm sure 99% of high-level zergs would find this more annoying than helpful.
On November 17 2011 22:20 Rammstorm wrote: If this program usage is cheating then they should remove the in-game timer too!!
Getting an advanage or doing something good is not cheating, because by that definition killing workers would be cheating, or even playing the game.
Cheating is playing outside the rules or doing something that is clearly not allowed. So basically, if blizz decided to take out the ToS and say "go ahead hack with whatever you want", technically hacking wouldn't be cheating anymore since everyone would be free to do it. Game would be stupid as fucking but that would be the game.
Like others have said, learning the timing by instinct is best so not my sort of program but if a ladder opponent was using this vs me I personally couldn't care less.
Why does everyone say that this is cheating lol? This is blizzard's ladder ffs, they make the rules not you. And nowhere do they say they have a problem with this, AFAIK it only becomes a problem if it interacts with the game.
When you go to another country do you start deciding which laws should be laws there and hence what you follow? No you don't, you obey the rules set up in that country. Just like when you are on battlenet you obey the rules and conditions blizzard states, and nowhere do they state that this is cheating. As many people have said its the same as using a stop watch. There are also many factors on ladder that makes the playing feel not equal so don't give me that shit.
Tournaments however is obviously a different scenario, because each tournament sets its own rules. Just like in lots of tournaments you can't listen to music, can't chat apart from gl hf and can't pause for a toilet break which would all be acceptable on ladder.
TL:DR, blizzard's ladder, blizzard's rules. Don't come in here saying 'that's cheating!' based on nothing but your personal opinion... They make the rules, and all they state is that he program can't interact with game client.
It's not really cheating. But it doesn't feel right or fair. When I win games I want to be able to say I've won them by myself and not with the help of some program
Third Party program .... to gain an unfair advantage ... this is basically a timer hack. How does TL support and let people post this but ban Savior streams?
We all know this is cheating, doesn't matter if you choose to admit it or not.
The problem here is that people see the ladder differently. Some people see it as a practice area while others see it as legitimate competition. I personally think the ladder's a joke of a competition, so train with it all you want. If it makes you timings better more power to you.
On November 17 2011 22:31 Apolex wrote: Third Party program .... to gain an unfair advantage ... this is basically a timer hack. How does TL support and let people post this but ban Savior streams?
We all know this is cheating, doesn't matter if you choose to admit it or not.
HOLY SHIT! How does anyone think this is cheating in the least?
Is having a friend coach you cheating? What if a friend stood behind you and told you to larva inject every time he saw the alert on the side of the screen? That's what this does. To say this is cheating is absolutely retarded, to say the least. It's not an "unfair" advantage in the least. It's just a damn reminder, it doesn't do it for you.
On November 17 2011 22:31 Apolex wrote: Third Party program .... to gain an unfair advantage ... this is basically a timer hack. How does TL support and let people post this but ban Savior streams?
We all know this is cheating, doesn't matter if you choose to admit it or not.
You my friend should try to participate in the conversation instead of "blah, blah blah it's cheating." How about you give some aspect as to why it is cheating? BTW, this is by far not even close to cheating. All it does is TRAIN the mind to get injects correct.
On November 17 2011 22:58 Aeris130 wrote: I hope none of the players crying "cheating!" talks in skype or similar programs when playing team games. In-game chat only, guys.
Actually there's a vocal chat also incorporated in bnet, so the case is kinda different...
On November 17 2011 22:58 Aeris130 wrote: I hope none of the players crying "cheating!" talks in skype or similar programs when playing team games. In-game chat only, guys.
On November 17 2011 21:31 paschl wrote: so the guys who dont consider this cheating, where do you draw the line? how about a timer that goes off at important attack timings, or to remind you to get detection/turrets etc? or something that centers the screen on your hatches when the larva is finished and then takes you back to where you were before. and when were that far it might aswell do it automatically amirite? we could also implement something that tells you what units to get or to send out scouts at various intervals. maybe a little help splitting your army? or a tool that beeps as soon as an enemy unit is visible on the minimap.
seriously, if you use this on ladder dont fool yourselves. youre cheating. regardless if youre using this tool, a stopwatch, an old brit with a pocket watch or a trained orangutan.
Do you really not understand the obvious difference between something that interacts with the game and something that DOES NOT interact with the game?
How do some people manage to register an account Oo
oh but i do. im just wondering where people draw the line and tried to pull the argument out of proportion. also please dont release your worked up anger on a forum, it doesnt really help to make your points. and i <3 you. seriously.
You draw the line where the ToS/Blizzard tells you to draw it, or where your tournament organiser tells you to draw it.
/sigh
so if there is a gray area in the ToS or a tourneys rules that does allow (or doesnt forbid) you to use a bot its not cheating?
If there's a certain *whatever* (granting you an advantage) that is clearly not prohibited, then yes, it's not cheating. Such is the nature of competition. People are going to do whatever it takes to get ahead.
And obviously, if it's something abusive that was looked over, admins will take notice and reevaluate their rules.
Extrapolating to this discussion, since this is a 20 lines program that interacts with the game as much as your MSN messenger (as in, not at all), you can't label it as a "hack".
And that's where the unfriendly tone in my earlier post came from - trying to explain a simple, simple concept to someone that just refuses to understand it does create some frustration. It's all chemistry, I guess.
The only implication that is worth discussing about this is in a tournament setting - however, I think this is a moot point, since I'm sure 99% of high-level zergs would find this more annoying than helpful.
i understand your point i just have a different oppinion on it. imo there should be some sort of moral responsibility on the players side (and yeah i know that sounds stupid).
j4f ive sent a support to blizzard asking about it. this is what they responded:
Vielen Dank für Ihre Anfrage.
Solange Programme nicht aktiv in Starcraft eingreifen kann man diese benutzen. Wenn es nebenher läuft als Stopuhr ist das nicht verboten.
which translates to: "As long as a tool doesnt directly interact with sc2 its legal."
This isn't cheating anymore than having a build on a sticky note next to your monitor is... it's just a coaching tool to help you along.
Personally, I don't think I'll use it because I don't want to handicap myself and become too reliant on the timer, and also, my injects aren't that bad anyhow.
I could see this being really useful for newer players though who need to get in the habit of injecting.
It's not tied into the game at all, it doesn't do any actions for you, so it's not cheating.
I remember when the ingame timer came out and so many people freaked and said that it was basically a cheat and should be disabled, bla bla bla. Now everyone uses it and it doesn't matter.
On November 18 2011 06:55 PhilipScrewdriver wrote: I think since Blizzard gives you a note saying that your larva has popped, this just makes it more noticeable, therefore not cheating.
I'm willing to wager that most of the haters and people claiming this is cheating are just people who don't want to have to use the program or just don't want to use it in general. So they demonize it to justify their lack of interest in hopes of persuading others not to use it.
On November 17 2011 11:48 idiotech wrote: It just a tool to help people learn
How does giving someone a crutch help them learn? It'll help them perform better while using it but will make them worse in the long run. Once the external reminder is gone they'll be even worse at injecting than they were before
Nice effort but this program is an awful idea and nobody should use it if they actually want to improve.
How is it any different to listening to music while playing? I find very rhythmic music helps my game play because it helps enforce repetition in my macro. Is this not equivalent to listening to a specifically tailored song?
On November 17 2011 11:48 idiotech wrote: It just a tool to help people learn
How does giving someone a crutch help them learn? It'll help them perform better while using it but will make them worse in the long run. Once the external reminder is gone they'll be even worse at injecting than they were before
Nice effort but this program is an awful idea and nobody should use it if they actually want to improve.
They could just always use it.
Not like people who need this will be playing in tournaments.
On November 18 2011 07:17 scudst0rm wrote: How is it any different to listening to music while playing? I find very rhythmic music helps my game play because it helps enforce repetition in my macro. Is this not equivalent to listening to a specifically tailored song?
Most genres of music I listen to while playing zerg have a beat that I can correlate to inject timing.
To all those who think this is cheating: WAHHHHH!
If anything, using it for maybe a few days will inevitably build the inject mechanic into your play. This is no different than someone telling you to inject, when to spread creep, etc that you could do simply by recording your voice and playing that MP3 during laddering. Anyone who actually is going to compete isn't going to use this and it should be used as a LEARNING device.
It does not violate the ToS, but it does seem to bring out all the people who whine that it is unfair. If it's software, people will rage. If it's music or a device sitting by your computer performing the exact same function, people don't care. It doesn't give you an unfair advantage simply because the timer in no way modifies the ability of larva inject to benefit you over the opponent. You could argue that it makes one player more likely to inject, but you might as well just blow hot air as both players have to eventually learn to inject. I'd rather be the player with the tool. If I couldn't use the tool, I'd train with a metronome or similar device.
To Stropheum: If you repeat an action so much under the aid of a training device, do you honestly think the user of said device is going to get WORSE at the repeated activity? From my personal experience, I can honestly state that my injects were better upon using a similar method of remembering to inject because it would force me to work it into my mechanical rhythm while playing the game. Nobody should listen to Stropheum if they actually want to improve. They should try it for themselves and come to their own conclusions.
Gosh, it's a third party program so you wouldn't be able to use it at a tournament. I think that much is obvious.
It's separate of the Blizzard client so they won't know that you're using it and you won't lose your account over it.
Whether or not it's considered cheating, it is a noob tool which is intended to train you to hit your injects (/mules/chrono). If you don't like it, don't use it. The intent is not to give you an unfair advantage, the intent is obviously to train you.
I won't use this product because I have concerns about dependency. ie, I fear that if I use the inject timer, then I would forget to inject if I didn't hear the tune. If my opponent used the inject timer, I don't care because it's just a game and I'm not being paid to play. You won't be able to use it at LAN-style tournaments, so for the most part money won't be won or lost as a result of this tool.
You gain an (unfair?) advantage over someone who isnt using it. "But I can record myself and loop the soundfile". First - that's cheating as well (gaining an advantage). Second, what's the reasoning behind it _not_ to be cheating? That a) everyone can do that, or b) that you can do it yourself and dont have to rely on the work of others? Concerning a) everyone can download a maphack. Everyone can easily turn into a stream and streamcheat that player. So if a) is your point, then you endorse stream cheating & maphacking. If it's b), well, you probably didnt build / write the recorder yourself, so you actually do rely on the work of others to gain that advantage. Also - for some people - writing a hack for SC2 is quite trivial. So you'd be ok if I play with a selfprogrammed hack, since I didnt use the work of others & it's trivial?
So imho again, yes it's cheating. But does it actually matter? No. It's just another example that the world is not black & white. Even the world of cheating. No one will care if you use it. You can use it to gain an advantage, you can use it as a practice tool only. It's your own personal decision where you draw the line between "over the top should be banned" and "it's still fine".
And as long as Blizzard is fine with it - you dont run the risk of being banned (and yes, Warden is actively scanning the memory, so it could easily detect the memory footprint of this program and ban you because of it).
It will only interfere in the game. Don't be lazy, just rebuild backspace to other hotkey and start use your fingers and brain, please. StarCraft 2 is already not hard, and you want to make it easier -_-
On November 17 2011 11:57 dAPhREAk wrote: doesnt sc2 already notify you when larva inject is done? they added it as part of a patch.
Eeyep, they did... You get a pretty obvious notification right there on the left side of your screen. If that isn't enough and you need some 3rd party software - I kindda feel the problem is the player... This is not needed... This WILL be considered cheating...
Not hating on your software... But it's not really something I can see help the community
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all?
You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage.
Once again: How will Blizzard know? They won't, is what I'm trying to say. Are you going to e-mail Blizzard and tell them you're using that program? They can only track programs that actually modify the SC2 client (MPQ editors, etc.)
Yeah you're right, and as long as you don't get caught cheating is fine right? I mean, thats the very spirit of competition ...
On November 17 2011 23:22 pileopoop wrote: Cheating is legal on ladder, but not in tourneys.
I think you misunderstood something... While people are actually cheating on ladder - it's really easy to report them and for blizzard to look into it. Blizzard is doing a massive effort to prevent cheats - on ladder (which is their responsibility), while they have nothing to say 'bout tournaments.
Of course this is cheating. It's like in 9th grade algebra when I wrote programs for my ti83 to do all the problems on my test for me. Was it technically against the rules? No, we were allowed to use calculators. Not my fault the teacher didn't make us clear their memories before we started. Was it against the spirit of the test? Yes.
Unfortunately, "show all work" is not a principal that can be applied to a ladder game.
The only people who would use this are people who want to improve their gameplay. I don't see the point in using this as a crutch instead of just learning.
On November 18 2011 07:25 DaCheF wrote: Can you make one for mac users?
I second that request. Yeah this isn't really cheating at all. Musicians use a metronome during practice all the time. Why can't we do the same.
lolwut... 'cuz musicians aren't playing REAL TIME against other musicians. It's not like - if a musician drops his rhythm ever so slightly that it will have the same obvious consequences as a vital missed inject...
On November 17 2011 11:55 PR4Y wrote: does this know when you have finished your inject rounds? if not, 5 minutes into the game your timer will be off by like 20-30 seconds.
people have tried this before, and it usually just doesn't work correctly. unless you have the above mentioned feature, it will be quite useless.
not to mention there are already 500 of these on the internet.
Not to hijack the thread or anything, but I made a program similar to this one awhile ago, that *does* keep track of when injects finish/mules expire/chrono boost expires, so it's never off.
cheat.. like many ppl write . One thing that make good zerg player is NOT miss larva inject. Close this topic or something...
Its can even helps your opponents to kill a zerg player.. just simple watch when larvas hatch , then see on timer when zerg unit will have NO NEW fighting units , just drones...
I play Zerg and I agree, it's cheat. Then you can use it in cg or vs-ai games "to get the rythme" but better to play with what the game is giving you, left sided alarm, queen/hatch switch. My opinion; but doesn't seem a bad one.
It seems like people will do ANYTHING to avoid just practicing to improve. So many people spend hours and hours reading or getting programs to help their mouse accuracy or even silly shit like this. When in reality the best way to improve is to just play the damn game.
On November 18 2011 08:48 Odal wrote: It seems like people will do ANYTHING to avoid just practicing to improve. So many people spend hours and hours reading or getting programs to help their mouse accuracy or even silly shit like this. When in reality the best way to improve is to just play the damn game.
Yeah, that's what I thought aswell. Not to hate on devs or anything, but bad shit is bad.
idk why so many ppl r hatin on this, i think its a very brilliant program and it might help some ppl, even tho i dont plan on using it myself because i dont really need to..
On November 18 2011 20:33 iNkopwnz wrote: idk why so many ppl r hatin on this, i think its a very brilliant program and it might help some ppl, even tho i dont plan on using it myself because i dont really need to..
Well it's not really a new idea I'm sure any Zerg player who can code has made something like this but it's 100% cheating.
On November 18 2011 20:33 iNkopwnz wrote: idk why so many ppl r hatin on this, i think its a very brilliant program and it might help some ppl, even tho i dont plan on using it myself because i dont really need to..
ok to those of you claiming that pros dont miss larvae injects obviously ignorant.
The well known macro players: losira, ret, idra, dimaga, there isnt a single replay where these players keep all the queens below 15 energy through a 20 minute game.
However, the main cause of this is because their apm is spent doing other worthwhile things, not because they forgot to inject.
But many players can make a high level of play even without learning a good inject cycle due to the poor standards of the world's players today. (obviously because not all the players invest all their time into this game, stephano being one)
This is one of the most stupid things I have seen. Injecting is a mechanic that you are supposed to learn, It's a skill. Making software that tells people when they have to inject is fucking ridiculous.
This is not cheating. I am surprised that this is even being argued about. It would be used to get better and eventually develop your own timing and internal clock. I would be willing to bet at least some top tier players have used something similar. It could be clock or a coach talking in your ear but it is all done with the same intention to get better. You would actually probably be a moron not to use every tool possible to get better as fast as possible. Sad that you get blasted for trying to help the community out.
I don't see how this is cheating.. How is this any different than using an external timer that will issue a beep every X seconds? I could write an android or iPhone app doing the same thing..
The concept is similar to a metronome, you use a mechanical assist to develop a habit and after it becomes intuitive you remove the assist and now you have excellent inject mechanics.
I think the idea was well intentioned but the product itself is not that helpful to be honest. If anything, it is distracting. If you miss an inject you have to sync it again etc. Sometimes players choose to focus on microing in a battle that can win the game.
Also, I personally play StarCraft with music and that is what get's me pumped and focused (an annoying warning ever few seconds would really not help) and if you are using your hotkeys correctly you should be able to learn to stay on top of your injects, even if they are not 100% perfect.
I wouldn't go as far as calling it cheating but I think it is just not the best way to learn to nail your injects. I think there are more effective ways like going through your hotkeys, that'll help you not only to stay on top of your injects but will help you with multitasking etc. (Much quicker way to get better I think)
it's 3rd party which is used to improve your game so yea, it's cheating.
but whatever, you guys are so overestimating the power of this. this is good for training just to get some exact sense about larva inject but in real games... naah, there are too many situations where you need to do a lot of other things and you just can't keep larva inject perfect because your qeen is placing tumors, fighting etc. + it often isn't all that important that you inject on exact time. As soon as you get macro hatches and your tech up it isn't really that big of a problem for good players.
perhaps cheating but its only a running programm and as long it not goes into sc2 its like winamp ... no one can see but still dont like it even its usefull
On November 18 2011 23:46 bLooD. wrote: Why would this be cheating? You could just look at the ingame time. But you would have to do a little math...
With this program you don't need to do the math or remember when to inject it just beeps and you inject...you can make yourself one in C++ with Sleep() and char 7.
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all?
You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage.
He didn't ask what the activity he is, he asked how Blizzard discovers the activity. You didn't answer..
On topic: This is a nifty idea for getting exposure out to your Critical Mass game project, without being blatantly overt about the advertising. Well played and good luck with further developing
I think we established that there are two opinions about it being cheating or not. I don't find it useful to keep posting the same two opinions over and over.
Perhaps focusing on strategies that are focused on ONES skill IN the game rather than something external is a better way to go about it. There are threads for that though.
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all?
You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage.
He didn't ask what the activity he is, he asked how Blizzard discovers the activity. You didn't answer..
On topic: This is a nifty idea for getting exposure out to your Critical Mass game project, without being blatantly overt about the advertising. Well played and good luck with further developing
Blizzard has an anti-cheat program called Warden that can scan a list of active processes on your computer. They can manually add the name of this program (or any other they deem inappropriate) to the watchlist and have Warden report back when this process is found running in conjunction with SC2.
As for the cheating / non-cheating discussion. Some people argue that it's not cheating because you could use a stopwatch or smartphone app to do the same. But doing that would also be cheating. It's an undetectable cheat (in ladder play / online tournaments), but that doesn't make it legit. You wouldn't be allowed to use your smartphone while playing an offline tournament. Looking at the ingame timer is of a completely different level than having something that automatically beeps every 40 Blizz-seconds. If you can time your injects by looking at the ingame timer, then that's just an alternative way of doing it instead of tapping past your queens/hatches regularly.
Why is everyone freaking out about this? It's really just a timer to tell you when to inject. I could accomplish the same thing by having a timer beep every 42.5 seconds.
Why is everyone freaking out about this? It's really just a timer to tell you when to inject. I could accomplish the same thing by having a timer beep every 42.5 seconds.
Please read the thread and don't ask a question that has been answered multiple times. And Rannasha, I agree:
If you can time your injects by looking at the ingame timer, then that's just an alternative way of doing it instead of tapping past your queens/hatches regularly.
It's a practice tool. Using it competitively is obviously cheating, as any practice tool would be. I don't think anyone would argue that. The difference in opinion comes from the fact that different people use the ladder in different ways.
There's been dozens of mods and programs like this already - why has this one received so much attention? It doesn't even add anything new. **
The game already gives you a visual notification, a written notification AND a sound notification that it is time to inject (not to mention if you are macroing constantly you will see the extra larvae burst, and you can hotkey a hatch to visually check a progress bar) - I don't see how a different sound notification is going to suddenly give you an overwhelming advantage. If anything the sound is going to get off-sync from your actual injects, and so you would be better simply listening for the inject sound effect.
** If you really want to do it properly, allow the user to enter the specific sequence of keys THEY use to inject so that the program can continuously re-sync itself with the game by picking up your button presses and restarting the clock.Do a visual progress bar too while you're at it.
how is this cheating? seems like a good way to learn larva injects. if you think a stopwatch is cheating then you might as well remove the in game timer too.
It's a tough call for me. I definetly think this program gives an unfair advantage to the player because one of the reasons a zerg is placed in the league he's placed in is his/her ability to macro, which is directly linked to the amount of inject larva timings they hit correctly. Those people using music or a stopwatch as an example to justify this program are completely wrong. Music has a beat that varies and is more passive; it blends in wih the environment you play in. You can even get lost in it when the music you're listening to climaxes at a particularily epic moment. Although yes it can influence your apm, it doesn't help as much as an annoying beep that disconnects you from what you're doing and immediately makes you think about injects. My point is that such things don't happen naturally without real practice, even with music playing in the background. This program bypasses the 'practice' part of that instinct. A stopwatch is completely out of place in this discussion since it isn't part of the processes running on your computer. I mean who honestly has a stopwatch hanging on the side of their computer and can spare the apm to glance at it every 30 seconds. That's simply ridiculous.
On the other hand, I really don't care if people do this, because I wouldn't consider them to be legitimate players. Ok, great, you're using a program that helps you win the game that you probably wouldn't have won on your own. I just gained some skill that will help me beat better zergs in the future, enjoy your +10 points and false sense of accomplishment.
I don't think this is cheating, though I would never use it because I think the best way to improve is to just learn it on your own so you don't learn to rely on this and have to use it everytime you play. I'm a competitive person and wouldn't use this because I feel it gives me an advantage, but for me the same could be said with any timer on a desk. So in my opinion, if you don't object to having a timer next to you, I don't see why you should object to this.
On November 19 2011 04:34 PolskaGora wrote: It's a tough call for me. I definetly think this program gives an unfair advantage to the player because one of the reasons a zerg is placed in the league he's placed in is his/her ability to macro, which is directly linked to the amount of inject larva timings they hit correctly. Those people using music or a stopwatch as an example to justify this program are completely wrong. Music has a beat that varies and is more passive; it blends in wih the environment you play in. You can even get lost in it when the music you're listening to climaxes at a particularily epic moment. Although yes it can influence your apm, it doesn't help as much as an annoying beep that disconnects you from what you're doing and immediately makes you think about injects. My point is that such things don't happen naturally without real practice, even with music playing in the background. This program bypasses the 'practice' part of that instinct. A stopwatch is completely out of place in this discussion since it isn't part of the processes running on your computer. I mean who honestly has a stopwatch hanging on the side of their computer and can spare the apm to glance at it every 30 seconds. That's simply ridiculous.
On the other hand, I really don't care if people do this, because I wouldn't consider them to be legitimate players. Ok, great, you're using a program that helps you win the game that you probably wouldn't have won on your own. I just gained some skill that will help me beat better zergs in the future, enjoy your +10 points and false sense of accomplishment.
If you've actually ever used a similar tool to this, you would have found that you would beat the default timer and inject properly on your own long before you became reliant on the tool to have proper macro mechanics.
The thread was pretty much solved on the first page and yet it has gotten to page 16...
"Use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the Game experience, including without limitation, mods that violate the terms of this License Agreement or the Terms of Use"
Read that, then look at the issue at hand, which is this program, and we can go through this next step togheter kids: Can we call it a cheat kids? "nooooo" good, can we call it an automation software (bot)? "noo!" correct! is it a hack? "no" very good, is it an unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the Game experiance...? "N... Wait, Yes!" VERY GOOD!
What is the purpose of this software? to remind you on injecting larva, OP was very clear about that. Is injecting larva part of the Game experiance? Blizzard sure thinks so, and common sence agrees. Is the software a part of SC2? no. With that established does anyone still fail to see how it is illegal?
As for the people saying stopwatch, egg timers etc I also refer you people to the quote, which does NOT mention anything about real world cheats. Maybe they have a different rule against it, but that particular rule does not restrict things that are not on the computer/part of it.
As for the people saying music and the arguements "but I play better when I listen to music, so is music a cheat as well since it gives me an advantage?!!?!?!?!?".
First of all, to determine whetever you actually play better with music or not is difficult, a slightly higher apm does not equal playing any better, can just as well be that you double click everything due to following the beat/rythm. Now if we assume you actually do play better with music it is fairly safe to say it is not due to the music directly. Maybe you play better angry, and the music makes you angry, then when you listen to music you will be playing better.
If you play better calm and the music makes you calm, then listening to music while playing will make you play better; but not due to the music, but rather because you are calm, the music might just be one of the factors making you calm.
Since the ladder is more or less meaningless, and there have been SO MANY OTHER UTILITIES that do this, the argument that "this is cheating!" is pretty much also meaningless. We live in a world where people watch other peoples streams to see everything they are doing, in a world with drop hacks and production queue hacks. This is a simple tool which helps you practice your macro (since zerg cant just spam 30 MULES at once like Terran can when they forget about macro). People who change team colours and background pictures modify SC2 more than this program does.
The argument that it's on your computer is also stupid. What if it was on my cell phone? Another computer beside me? What if I used a metronome or egg timer? Defining the line as "on the PC you play starcraft with" is pretty pointless, since you're basically admitting the rule is made worthless by a loophole/technicality.
This isn't GSL people, its ladder. Ladder is for practice and practice tools are fine, don't get your panties in a knot. Does it really matter if someone surges to the #1 spot of his platinum division using this? You still have to have other skills to get to Grand Master and even then GM spots are just for e-peen.
Oh yeah, and there's been like 30 threads on similar utilities before;
TLDR if you think its cheating and it sullies your honour don't use it, but it's not cheating so stop shitting on people who do, you could actually be playing the game and getting better instead of wasting your time complaining about other people trying to get better.
On November 19 2011 05:14 NTTemplar wrote: The thread was pretty much solved on the first page and yet it has gotten to page 16...
"Use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the Game experience, including without limitation, mods that violate the terms of this License Agreement or the Terms of Use"
Read that, then look at the issue at hand, which is this program, and we can go through this next step togheter kids: Can we call it a cheat kids? "nooooo" good, can we call it an automation software (bot)? "noo!" correct! is it a hack? "no" very good, is it an unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the Game experiance...? "N... Wait, Yes!" VERY GOOD!
What is the purpose of this software? to remind you on injecting larva, OP was very clear about that. Is injecting larva part of the Game experiance? Blizzard sure thinks so, and common sence agrees. Is the software a part of SC2? no. With that established does anyone still fail to see how it is illegal?
As for the people saying stopwatch, egg timers etc I also refer you people to the quote, which does NOT mention anything about real world cheats. Maybe they have a different rule against it, but that particular rule does not restrict things that are not on the computer/part of it.
As for the people saying music and the arguements "but I play better when I listen to music, so is music a cheat as well since it gives me an advantage?!!?!?!?!?".
First of all, to determine whetever you actually play better with music or not is difficult, a slightly higher apm does not equal playing any better, can just as well be that you double click everything due to following the beat/rythm. Now if we assume you actually do play better with music it is fairly safe to say it is not due to the music directly. Maybe you play better angry, and the music makes you angry, then when you listen to music you will be playing better.
If you play better calm and the music makes you calm, then listening to music while playing will make you play better; but not due to the music, but rather because you are calm, the music might just be one of the factors making you calm.
The fact this is such a touchy subject, and that Blizz will almost certainly not rly like you using a timer, would probably mean it's more trouble than it's worth.
If you really want to get at timings, practice is key, and if you're looking for ways to get on the top levels of SC2, this is certainly not it. For everyone else, I agree it would help, but tbh, I don' t think you're losing THAT much. As I said, more trouble that it's worth.
How is this not cheating? People are so idiotic... this is like using a software that tells you whenever you should make a new round of units with your barracks / WGs... You may say "well there is already an in-game message that says it" yeah... obviously that's as good as a FREAKING SOUND NOTIFICATION, I mean, people never miss an injection/round of units, right?
Do people realize that injects is the zergs production? This is just as using a software that make you hit production cycles 100%...
Cheating 100%, don't see how you can argue with that, "it's for practicing" well you're fucking over ppl on the ladder by using this, it's an unfair advantage.
OP, you just defeated the whole purpose of these macro spells. Timing these spells at the right time is one of the few skills that separates a professional and an amateur. I think you're better off implementing this in a custom map.
Well one queen is easy, the main reason for such a tool for me would be multiple, desynchronized timers. An immediate improvement would be that each time you press the hotkey, a different timer is started with an additional one for resetting. Even better would be that the software recognizes when you inject through your keyboard/mouse patterns (e.g. I only use "next hatchery" when injecting) but that would potentially be cheating...
@"it's cheating": It's a different software on the same machine that does not interface with SC2 in any way. How is that in any way more cheating than having the software on a different machine or using a stopwatch??
P.S.: Oh come on, why do I have to install a big framework just for such a minimalistic app? :-)
Anyone who cares about having perfect injects would want to be able to do them in tournament conditions and good luck getting that into the GSL undetected.
Play Zerg as your main for a month and you'll have the timing engraved in your brain.
These threads remind me why I hardly play sc2, as it's being made easier all the time when it should be made harder...
but then again you won't be allowed using such a thing in cups & tournaments on & offline.. which only makes sense so if you have some kind of self respect, learn the timings out of your head.
I think this kind of program aren't allowed in tourneys online and offline, so is better to learn timing of larva inject without that program but using your brain as all the people did until now.
Most of you Guys are kinda Hypocritical and make more out of it than it really is, cuz in the long run its a practice method to get better not to get an advantage and it isnt even big deal.
btw then would like a notice on your desk that reminds you on stuff to do in sc2 would also be a third party tool and u see where this goes its pretty stupid.
On January 02 2012 01:06 DanceOnCreep wrote: Most of you Guys are kinda Hypocritical and make more out of it than it really is, cuz in the long run its a practice method to get better not to get an advantage and it isnt even big deal.
btw then would like a notice on your desk that reminds you on stuff to do in sc2 would also be a third party tool and u see where this goes its pretty stupid.
Huge discrepancies between a note on a desk and a reminder every 40 in game seconds that you have to inject.
On January 02 2012 01:06 DanceOnCreep wrote: Most of you Guys are kinda Hypocritical and make more out of it than it really is, cuz in the long run its a practice method to get better not to get an advantage and it isnt even big deal.
how are we hypocrits? lmao
in the long run it's something that numbs down sc2 even more, it's supposed to be a game where you have to use your brain & not some external software tools to make things easier for you (when sc2 is already too easy to begin with).
a practice method? best practice method is playing the game day in day out & learn the timings out of your head regarding injects, creep tumors, upgrade timings, BO timings,... for every single race even if you only just play 1 of them. Hell, you should even know the timing when your lair's finished, when a spawning pool is finished, spawning times for your units ect ect ect...
but hey, have fun ruining the game even more, i'll be smiling whilst enjoying/playing bw.
p.s.: anyone who's a little bit decent doesn't need notes sticked on his screen with timings ect.. they just learn it out of their head but I guess those numbers are growing smaller when you keep on making things easier.
A program like this existed before and i feel like the only reason this thread exists is to sell their game but don't get the thread on tl locked because of advertisement.
there is already a timer for injects, ccs and chronos, click on the queen or nexus and look at the energy... if ur attacking just remind yourself u have to macro when u micro...
if your having trouble with injects just spend your next 10 to 20 games only being concerned about injects.
And i would consider this cheating on the ladder or in tournys, but if u want to use it vs ai for practice i dont see anything wrong with it, but you might just get use to being told when to inject and not actually know yourself when you should be injecting
i didnt said that i use it and i didnt say that its really helpfull at all but you guys always kinda make more out of it than it really is i mean its not like the inject gets automaticly done or something
On January 02 2012 01:15 DanceOnCreep wrote: i didnt said that i use it and i didnt say that its really helpfull at all but you guys always kinda make more out of it than it really is i mean its not like the inject gets automaticly done or something
...
still trying to figure out how you can possibly be making any sense. It's like someone holding your hand when you're learning how to walk, ofcourse it's really helpful so it's actually stupid to try & defend yourself by saying "i didnt say that its really helpfull at all".
& oh man i'd actually start crying out of laughter if i'd see the inject being done automaticly
On January 02 2012 01:22 FaCE_1 wrote: I find this useful. It will help your intern mechanic to do it automatically.
actually no... it's like someone saying when I get to 10 you jump. You wouldn't be timing things yourself, you'd just wait 'till they give you the sign to jump & if you'd play with something like that & then take it away from you.. you'd be back to square one.
Starting to wonder why I even bother like.. so silly
On November 19 2011 11:54 Noli wrote: Or just time them out?
Anyone who cares about having perfect injects would want to be able to do them in tournament conditions and good luck getting that into the GSL undetected.
Play Zerg as your main for a month and you'll have the timing engraved in your brain.
yeah right because 99% of us are going to play in the gsl wtf dude
ninety fucking nine percent in this forum are not even gonna play in a online tournament and when that would be something for 5 ducks or something
and even with this tool a bronze will be still a bronze player.
you could just have the same shit on a winamp player and just press play on the keyboard when you inject tadaaaaaaaaaaa magic...wooohoooo....
Since it gives you an unfair advantage it pretty much defines cheating, however if it doesn't interact with the SC2 client or any of its files i don't think that it can be acknowledged by Blizzard :s
On November 19 2011 11:54 Noli wrote: Or just time them out?
Anyone who cares about having perfect injects would want to be able to do them in tournament conditions and good luck getting that into the GSL undetected.
Play Zerg as your main for a month and you'll have the timing engraved in your brain.
yeah right because 99% of us are going to play in the gsl wtf dude
ninety fucking nine percent in this forum are not even gonna play in a online tournament and when that would be something for 5 ducks or something
and even with this tool a bronze will be still a bronze player.
you could just have the same shit on a winamp player and just press play on the keyboard when you inject tadaaaaaaaaaaa magic...wooohoooo....
stop being so ridiculous people
Noli's point being that it's still cheating, so taking his gsl comment so literal is actually beyond stupid.
a bronze player (even though the leagues are no reference to skill) might be able to know the timings out of his/her head but when they get into a battle they might forget about such things which is actually a big deal, bigger than you might actually realise yourself but with a timer that tells you when you can inject again they get reminded of those things & in the long run it would make a difference in their performance and don't even try to deny this coz if you do you're just full of it.
On November 19 2011 11:54 Noli wrote: Or just time them out?
Anyone who cares about having perfect injects would want to be able to do them in tournament conditions and good luck getting that into the GSL undetected.
Play Zerg as your main for a month and you'll have the timing engraved in your brain.
yeah right because 99% of us are going to play in the gsl wtf dude
ninety fucking nine percent in this forum are not even gonna play in a online tournament and when that would be something for 5 ducks or something
and even with this tool a bronze will be still a bronze player.
you could just have the same shit on a winamp player and just press play on the keyboard when you inject tadaaaaaaaaaaa magic...wooohoooo....
stop being so ridiculous people
Noli's point being that it's still cheating, so taking his gsl comment so literal is actually beyond stupid.
and my point is that this is not cheating. and taking my gsl comment so literal about his gsl comment is beyond beyond stupid?
On November 19 2011 11:54 Noli wrote: Or just time them out?
Anyone who cares about having perfect injects would want to be able to do them in tournament conditions and good luck getting that into the GSL undetected.
Play Zerg as your main for a month and you'll have the timing engraved in your brain.
yeah right because 99% of us are going to play in the gsl wtf dude
ninety fucking nine percent in this forum are not even gonna play in a online tournament and when that would be something for 5 ducks or something
and even with this tool a bronze will be still a bronze player.
you could just have the same shit on a winamp player and just press play on the keyboard when you inject tadaaaaaaaaaaa magic...wooohoooo....
stop being so ridiculous people
Noli's point being that it's still cheating, so taking his gsl comment so literal is actually beyond stupid.
and my point is that this is not cheating. and taking my gsl comment so literal about his gsl comment is beyond beyond stupid?
so you're basicly just full of it & not capable to reason with nor to inform you about what this program is actually capable of... So basicly there's no point in talking to you so have fun xx
and actually, trying to say that you didn't take his comment too literal really shows in the way you replied.. fuck my life, you're actually one of the biggest simpletons i've ever seen on this website.
On November 19 2011 11:54 Noli wrote: Or just time them out?
Anyone who cares about having perfect injects would want to be able to do them in tournament conditions and good luck getting that into the GSL undetected.
Play Zerg as your main for a month and you'll have the timing engraved in your brain.
yeah right because 99% of us are going to play in the gsl wtf dude
ninety fucking nine percent in this forum are not even gonna play in a online tournament and when that would be something for 5 ducks or something
and even with this tool a bronze will be still a bronze player.
you could just have the same shit on a winamp player and just press play on the keyboard when you inject tadaaaaaaaaaaa magic...wooohoooo....
stop being so ridiculous people
Noli's point being that it's still cheating, so taking his gsl comment so literal is actually beyond stupid.
and my point is that this is not cheating. and taking my gsl comment so literal about his gsl comment is beyond beyond stupid?
On November 19 2011 11:54 Noli wrote: Or just time them out?
Anyone who cares about having perfect injects would want to be able to do them in tournament conditions and good luck getting that into the GSL undetected.
Play Zerg as your main for a month and you'll have the timing engraved in your brain.
yeah right because 99% of us are going to play in the gsl wtf dude
ninety fucking nine percent in this forum are not even gonna play in a online tournament and when that would be something for 5 ducks or something
and even with this tool a bronze will be still a bronze player.
you could just have the same shit on a winamp player and just press play on the keyboard when you inject tadaaaaaaaaaaa magic...wooohoooo....
stop being so ridiculous people
Noli's point being that it's still cheating, so taking his gsl comment so literal is actually beyond stupid.
and my point is that this is not cheating. and taking my gsl comment so literal about his gsl comment is beyond beyond stupid?
That's just stupid.
viva la france! *high five*
at least someone who's able to keep up, sir, i commend you.
On November 19 2011 11:54 Noli wrote: Or just time them out?
Anyone who cares about having perfect injects would want to be able to do them in tournament conditions and good luck getting that into the GSL undetected.
Play Zerg as your main for a month and you'll have the timing engraved in your brain.
yeah right because 99% of us are going to play in the gsl wtf dude
ninety fucking nine percent in this forum are not even gonna play in a online tournament and when that would be something for 5 ducks or something
and even with this tool a bronze will be still a bronze player.
you could just have the same shit on a winamp player and just press play on the keyboard when you inject tadaaaaaaaaaaa magic...wooohoooo....
stop being so ridiculous people
Noli's point being that it's still cheating, so taking his gsl comment so literal is actually beyond stupid.
and my point is that this is not cheating. and taking my gsl comment so literal about his gsl comment is beyond beyond stupid?
so you're basicly just full of it & not capable to reason with nor to inform you about what this program is actually capable of... So basicly there's no point in talking to you so have fun xx
but you still do it...saying im full of it and there is no point in talking to me is still talking. with the reason/point to insult me or disagree in a douchebaggery behavior trying to make someone else look stupid does not make you smarter or gives your piont any value
18 pages of pointless arguing and horrible analogies lol
It is identical to having a friend watching you play and telling you when to inject. It is a practice tool developed by the OP giving back to this community. It is aimed at the bronze - masters players who may still need to improve their mental timings for injects.
It is up to tournaments to allow this or not, but it is highly unlikely players of that caliber would even need it.
So please stop arguing about how ethical you think it may or may not be, I would much prefer to hear if any Zergs have used this yet and what their thoughts are, and if it helping them to improve.
I am sure the OP would also appreciate some nice feedback for the effort he put in.
Chrono boost should never be automated IMO. It is an ability focused on adaptation and pooling, and really is not that useful at all if you just use it whenever you hit 25 energy. If the program is about chaining chronos, its only like a 10 second timer, it is far far far easier to learn than injects and much easier to chrono a building once than to inject 3+ hatcheries using hotkeys, double tapping etc, really, if you need a program to beep every 10 seconds in order to play the game properly you are going a little bit too far with the automation i think. Inject Larvae is kind of a different matter (i still kinda disagree with that) but using a timer for chrono boost is taking it too far i think.
I don't want to touch the point of it being unethical.
However, it's very unlikely that you can practice with the tool, and get better without it. The human mind, as proven by studies, can not consistently produce a rhythm that has more than a few seconds between it's beats. You can "prove" this by yourself by trying to do a 10-second rhythm without counting the seconds or counting anything in between. It's just not possible. Now I may suspect a 40-second rhythm is just as impossible.
You will obviously play better with the tool. But that's just logical. It will however not help you improve your play without the tool.
Now I'm open to being proved wrong, but I think the usage of this tool for "practice" reasons is just nonsense. If you use it for this reason, you just lie to yourself and use the tool to just be better than you really are, because losing sucks, and you lose less with it (or gain a higher rank with it)
cheating is not defined as whether blizzard will ban you for it or not lol cheating is when you are going into the game with an unfair advantage. It doesn't matter if this interacts with the SC2 client or not, it's helping you inject and reminding you to.
There are always maphacks out there that blizzard won't detect, maphacking software is always ahead of blizzard, it doesn't make it right to use.
Depending on what league you are in, the more advantageous this timer becomes, a PLatnium player who might have missed injects by 10 seconds every round, now injects 5 seconds early, over a period of 5 minutes, you have 2 - 3 full cycle of larva extra to use. Personally I believe, having a bigger army is much better then seeing what the other guy is doing.
Blizzard created this game and its rules and thus they are the only ones in any position to say what is cheating and what isnt. Likewise the host of a tournament creates its rules and gets to decide what is cheating in that environment.
Its highly unlikely any tourny would allow software like this, and as far as ladder goes all that matters is what blizz says.
I personally think this software is stupid and wouldnt use it, but whether its cheating or not isnt up to us, its up to blizzard and tournament hosts.
Welcome to cheating in SC. How will you learn if you don't practice and get an internal clock to do these mechanics? Not to mention as the game goes later things like chrono become less valuable. So, kinda silly
On January 02 2012 02:24 Equity213 wrote: Blizzard created this game and its rules and thus they are the only ones in any position to say what is cheating and what isnt. Likewise the host of a tournament creates its rules and gets to decide what is cheating in that environment.
Its highly unlikely any tourny would allow software like this, and as far as ladder goes all that matters is what blizz says.
I personally think this software is stupid and wouldnt use it, but whether its cheating or not isnt up to us, its up to blizzard and tournament hosts.
if you bring notes to a test and the teacher doesn't say anything even though you know she saw you, is it considered cheating? Blizzard is not going to ban this because it is UNDETECTABLE. If they make an issue about it, the greater population will start using it and blizzard CANNOT stop them. There's no way scanning your computer for files unrelated to sc2 is legal lol , that's the only way to detect this.
On January 02 2012 02:24 Equity213 wrote: Blizzard created this game and its rules and thus they are the only ones in any position to say what is cheating and what isnt. Likewise the host of a tournament creates its rules and gets to decide what is cheating in that environment.
Its highly unlikely any tourny would allow software like this, and as far as ladder goes all that matters is what blizz says.
I personally think this software is stupid and wouldnt use it, but whether its cheating or not isnt up to us, its up to blizzard and tournament hosts.
if you bring notes to a test and the teacher doesn't say anything even though you know she saw you, is it considered cheating? Blizzard is not going to ban this because it is UNDETECTABLE. If they make an issue about it, the greater population will start using it and blizzard CANNOT stop them. There's no way scanning your computer for files unrelated to sc2 is legal lol , that's the only way to detect this.
So if I steal from 7-11 but I dont get caught, is that considered stealing?
Come on. Getting caught has nothing to do with it.
Consent to Monitor. WHEN RUNNING, THE GAME MAY MONITOR YOUR COMPUTER'S RANDOM ACCESS MEMORY (RAM) FOR UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAMS RUNNING CONCURRENTLY WITH THE GAME. AN "UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM" AS USED HEREIN SHALL BE DEFINED AS ANY THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE PROHIBITED BY SECTION 2. IN THE EVENT THAT THE GAME DETECTS AN UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM, THE GAME MAY (a) COMMUNICATE INFORMATION BACK TO BLIZZARD, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION YOUR ACCOUNT NAME, DETAILS ABOUT THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM DETECTED, AND THE TIME AND DATE; AND/OR (b) EXERCISE ANY OR ALL OF ITS RIGHTS UNDER THIS AGREEMENT, WITH OR WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE TO THE USER.
On January 02 2012 02:24 Equity213 wrote: Blizzard created this game and its rules and thus they are the only ones in any position to say what is cheating and what isnt. Likewise the host of a tournament creates its rules and gets to decide what is cheating in that environment.
Its highly unlikely any tourny would allow software like this, and as far as ladder goes all that matters is what blizz says.
I personally think this software is stupid and wouldnt use it, but whether its cheating or not isnt up to us, its up to blizzard and tournament hosts.
Blizzard is not going to ban this because it is UNDETECTABLE. If they make an issue about it, the greater population will start using it and blizzard CANNOT stop them. There's no way scanning your computer for files unrelated to sc2 is legal lol , that's the only way to detect this.
If it's running while you are playing SC2 they don't have to scan your computer for files, only your RAM. Which, if you read the EULA, you agreed that they may do when you installed the game. That's exactly what they do to detect all banned third-party software, as well.
So, no, it's not undetectable. If Blizzard wanted to ban people for it, they could easily do so. I don't imagine they would care to do so, however, since it doesn't accomplish anything you couldn't do with a stopwatch or another human being looking over your shoulder.
if you want to get better you need to learn to scroll through your hatcheries to nail your inject timings. if you use a timer youre probably very very noob.
LOL@those of you getting your panties in a bunch over this application. its a learning tool. Obviously its not something you'd use for every single game you play until the end of time and in fact, it would get kindve annoying if you tried to. Furthermore anyone at any competitive level of play wouldn't need one of these anyway so it doesnt really tarnish competitive play at the highest level. Chill out.
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all?
You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage.
nope a beep tone every 30 seconds happens to me my favourite "music" while playing sc2
that cant be a bannable violation of the terms of use
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all?
You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage.
nope a beep tone every 30 seconds happens to me my favourite "music" while playing sc2
that cant be a bannable violation of the terms of use
Indeed So if you play an audio file that gives a bleep every 30 sec its k but if its a program its cheating? Also note that starcraft 2 gives in game messages about when birthing extra larvae is finished.. don't see what is "unfair" about that either
On November 17 2011 11:57 jidolboy wrote: "Use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the Game experience, including without limitation, mods that violate the terms of this License Agreement or the Terms of Use"
....
It's not any of those listed above, as it simply notify you, and then you have to react yourself accordingly
I am really blown away by all the people that think this is "cheating."
This is nothing more than a glorified stopwatch.
Would you consider a player using a stopwatch on his desk, or having a friend coach his play to be cheating?
I have unfortunately deleted the email, but I previously talked to a Blizzard rep at length about having someone coach your LADDER session's over a streaming/screen sharing program, and he explained to me very clearly that as long as it's you doing the work, and the 3rd party program (skype for instance) doesn't interact with the actual game, it is 100% inside of the TOS.
Based on that information, I would logically conclude that a timer which does not interact with SC2 in any way, or execute any commands for you is 100% legal.
This is not cheating. It's a very simple tool that's designed to help train your mechanics. To try and help illustrate how use of these timers is not cheating, I'd like to use a real sports example.
I'm a golfer, and there are many things that you can do on the practice range to help your mechanics that you can not do on the course. For example, to help ensure I have a clean follow through, sometimes I'll place 3 golf balls down in a row, and only try to hit the center one. Another example would be on the practice putting green. To help keep my shoulders steady, and my arms swinging like a pendulum, I will try to swing my putter head between 2 tee's that I stick in the ground. Another trick I've seen on the range is sticking a rod in the ground on an angle to help ensure your downswing is on the proper plane. There are DOZENS of these little things that you can do in a practice environment that can help correct negative behaviors, however, you can't use any of these aids once you hit the course.
These little tools do not modify the game client, therefore they are not illegal or against the EULA. This would be the exact same thing has setting the stop watch on my cell phone to beep at me every 30 seconds. Now, when you move from a practice environment (ladder) to a competition (tournament) then these aids would not be allowed as they would provide an unfair advantage.
Use these aids to help train your mechanics, but don't rely on them.
On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote: This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED.
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy.
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here.
Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time.
Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is.
Ladder IS practice.
The whole difference of opinion here is that people are coming in with the mindset that ladder is EQUIVALENT to tournament play, which it absolutely is not. If it were, there's a hell of a lot of other stuff that people can do on ladder that shouldn't be done (like having someone else ladder on your account, or even having someone coach you while you're playing the game).
This thing some may call cheating, others may think it is an unfair advantage. let me state that about 4-5 mins into the game this program will be useless and have to be reset periodically thru out the match in order to keep accurate time. now also all this does is Enhance the already in game sound that is created when larvae pop off(you wont get the exact timings ever time and to be fully honest you will probably be behind using a program like this to track your larvae injections). That being said however this is not a cheat/hack/macro that can or will be punished by blizzard this is not cheating or an advantage giving tool... any that say it is you are just ignorant that it is a glorified stopwatch o my... I can do this without a program by using a metronome or my phones stopwatch set to 30 seconds to alarm me ... Honestly this will help people learn how to play slightly better and over time they wouldn't use this program ... it is sad to think that you folks in bronze and silver would get so angry over something that is meant to help you learn and not give you an unfair advantage in the process... It is a stop watch that is all... not some macro that automatically does the injects for you at the appropriate times(believe me they exist) all this is, is a damned stop watch so stop the rage about its cheating and unfair.. when its JUST A STOP WATCH!!!
Edit: Question to u nay sayers...
How is this any worse or better than lets say me paying money for coaching while i ladder a few games? I am obvoiusly cheating the ladder because im having another person that is much better than myself tell me what im doin wrong when i do it... but hey this stop watch is really bad right.
This software is conisdered cheating, because you are using a third party program to give an unfair advantage. Everything you need is already in the game.
This might not be considered cheating, but it definitely gives you an unfair advantage over your opponent and most importantly, you don't actually get better if you use it.
Think about how pathetic you must be if you have to use something to benefit yourself, just to win in an online game. While your e-peen might get bigger and you get e-fame and shit like that, you're complete crap in reality and you'll do like shit offline tournaments where it matters.
On January 06 2012 06:05 MassacrisM wrote: This might not be considered cheating, but it definitely gives you an unfair advantage over your opponent and most importantly, you don't actually get better if you use it.
It clearly isn't cheating, any more than having a buddy remind you is. And actually, thousands of dollars are payed out every month so that people can have a coach tell them to hit their larva inject. It is a perfectly FAIR advantage that you have gained over your opponent, and if you use it correctly, it will probably help you get better.
Think about how pathetic you must be if you have to use something to benefit yourself, just to win in an online game. While your e-peen might get bigger and you get e-fame and shit like that, you're complete crap in reality and you'll do like shit offline tournaments where it matters.
Honestly, I don't see how you could possibly come to that conclusion unless you seriously misunderstood the OP. Like seriously misunderstood it.
Every time someone shows that a tool can be used to help with timings half the crowd flips out and starts going red in the face arguing that you should play every ladder game of starcraft2 in a sealed off booth with you coach on the other side of the double plated glass. And every time the amount of games everyone collectively would use the tool would be easily under 1000.
Good luck with the game design, you probably hear it a lot but you should move a game like that to the emerging market of mobile apps.
Calling this cheating is kind of weird in my opinion. When I play zerg I have a stopwatch next to my pc that beeps after 40 seconds. I inject larva and press my stopwatch reset button.
Yeah this is no different to having a click track in your ears if your performing music live which almost everyone does... like other people said if it doesn't know when you have finished your injects (which it can't possibly if it doesn't interfere with the client) then it's only useful if you're really nailing those injects anyway and will easily get out of sync. It could help you to not go long periods without injecting though, but only very low level players will tend to do that anyway so yeah I think it's an overreaction to call it cheating.
I wouldn't consider this cheating. Isn't this the same thing as having your build order beside you as you play? Or having it written down on a notepad on your other screen? I think people ought to treat this as a helpful aid. It's designed to help you remember to do something you should be doing anyways. It is not doing it for you or altering what is happening in-game (if it really works as described). You won't see pro's writing down their BO's in major tournamnets, and you won't see them using programs such as this, but if an average player wants to use this while laddering, who can fault them? Another point is that this discusion of whether it is cheating or not may be a moot point due to the fact that it's impossible to detect. The same goes for "stream sniping". While this is considered BM and looked down upon, the harsh reality is that it cannot be monitered and technically is not "cheating". All in all, even if Blizzard doesnt allow the program, or 99% of players consider it cheating, how can it even hope to be stopped? (please note that hacking is an entirely different topic. In those cases, a player is actually altering the game to gain an unfair advantage. This behavior should never be tolerated and ought to be punished accordingly)
If one can use this to help them become mechanically better at the game, I say go for it.
On January 06 2012 06:02 HeeroFX wrote: This software is conisdered cheating, because you are using a third party program to give an unfair advantage. Everything you need is already in the game.
I have a steelseries sensei, and I use steelseries 3rd party program to set my DPI at 800. This clearly gives me an unfair advantage over my opponent who has a mouse set at the standard 1600 DPI that cannot be adjusted.
Blizzard should just ban me now. I'm such a dirty cheater.
I firmly believe that a 3rd party program is not considered cheating unless it alters the game itself. If you really choose to believe what you said above, you have to be consistent. So that means you have to think that changing your DPI is cheating. Also, if someone buys a really nice set of headphones, isn't the software that comes with it cheating if it allows you to hear the game clearer? So players will be able to react quicker to subtle sounds. Come on, be real.
Yeah this is definitely cheating. It's a crutch and it's not going to help you in the long run. I saw a silver league player using it and it was the only thing keeping him in the game. You have to learn macro and mechanics not cheat.
If zerg players want to learn how to inject larva more efficiently then they need to count themselves and constantly check back at their bases. That's part of learning how to play. They also have a small in-game text that indicates the larva has been spawned.
This is like putting a stop watch right in the middle of your screen where you literally can't NOT see it. You might think it's to help newer players but this is cheating. It's a software that makes the game easier.
On June 26 2012 02:43 Inquisitor1323 wrote: The hardest part of playing zerg is keeping on top of your injects, this just makes zerg easy. It's cheap.
Don't talk if you're just going to make shit up. You have absolutely no idea what makes zerg hard if you think you lost to a silver player only because he had a stop watch next to him. -.-
On June 26 2012 02:43 Inquisitor1323 wrote: The hardest part of playing zerg is keeping on top of your injects, this just makes zerg easy. It's cheap.
Don't talk if you're just going to make shit up. You have absolutely no idea what makes zerg hard if you think you lost to a silver player only because he had a stop watch next to him. -.-
He was streaming bro. Zerg is a macro race, learn how to macro...
On June 26 2012 01:06 superbarnie wrote: This isnt cheating. This would be like my friend sitting next to me and telling me when the injects are done.
Also cheating.
I don't really care if people use this or if people have a friend telling them to inject, but make no mistake, it is cheating. You can't get banned for it, if you think it'll help you go right ahead, if you have the smallest hope of ever playing live anywhere then don't use this.
Big deal...
People should want opponents with advantages like this, it makes them better. Sure there are limits but this is harmless.
Simple software like this, yes it would help to zerg to inject properly. However, this sort of thing can be easily made with any sort of timer. In my opinion, this doesn't promote cheating or any of the sorts since it doesn't automatically do it for you. Not to mention, if the zerg player is paying attention, and can see when the inject larva popped from the notification. That is pretty much the same concept as this. If you call these timers cheating and what not, in bw; I see people stream with in game clock and apm chart on. Is that really considered cheating? It's a "third" party program right?
On June 26 2012 02:43 Inquisitor1323 wrote: The hardest part of playing zerg is keeping on top of your injects, this just makes zerg easy. It's cheap.
Don't talk if you're just going to make shit up. You have absolutely no idea what makes zerg hard if you think you lost to a silver player only because he had a stop watch next to him. -.-
He was streaming bro. Zerg is a macro race, learn how to macro...
Are you seriously telling me "learn to macro" after you claim the hardest part about zerg is simply injecting? Laugh out fucking loud.
Man, drg is the best with injects right? Since hes like the best zerg? Oh wait! I saw him with almost 75 energy on all his queens yesterday when he was streaming. That must mean hes a horrible zerg and shoudl have been losing all his matches right?
If you're going to insult me, at least make it long, your short posts are just useless banter.
I think everyone who is calling this cheating is WAY overreacting. It has no direct interaction with SC2. You have to manually set the clock timer every time you inject. This program does not automatically inject for you either--you still have to use the APM and multitasking in order to inject.
High tier players won't use this because its not worth the APM or time to set the clock; and they constantly have inject awareness anyways (so clock is pretty much useless). This is just a cool trick for new players to help them learn how to macro properly.
On June 26 2012 03:17 FailCow wrote: I think everyone who is calling this cheating is WAY overreacting. It has no direct interaction with SC2. You have to manually set the clock timer every time you inject. This program does not automatically inject for you either--you still have to use the APM and multitasking in order to inject.
High tier players won't use this because its not worth the APM or time to set the clock; and they constantly have inject awareness anyways (so clock is pretty much useless). This is just a cool trick for new players to help them learn how to macro properly.
IMO, it's better to learn by failing. Fail to inject larva will leave u without larva and might lose you the game. This will make a player remeber to inject larva. A clock is just a cheap way of "remembering".
On June 26 2012 03:17 FailCow wrote: I think everyone who is calling this cheating is WAY overreacting. It has no direct interaction with SC2. You have to manually set the clock timer every time you inject. This program does not automatically inject for you either--you still have to use the APM and multitasking in order to inject.
High tier players won't use this because its not worth the APM or time to set the clock; and they constantly have inject awareness anyways (so clock is pretty much useless). This is just a cool trick for new players to help them learn how to macro properly.
You don't understand. This is essentially map hacking.
On June 26 2012 03:17 FailCow wrote: I think everyone who is calling this cheating is WAY overreacting. It has no direct interaction with SC2. You have to manually set the clock timer every time you inject. This program does not automatically inject for you either--you still have to use the APM and multitasking in order to inject.
High tier players won't use this because its not worth the APM or time to set the clock; and they constantly have inject awareness anyways (so clock is pretty much useless). This is just a cool trick for new players to help them learn how to macro properly.
IMO, it's better to learn by failing. Fail to inject larva will leave u without larva and might lose you the game. This will make a player remeber to inject larva. A clock is just a cheap way of "remembering".
People learn differently. I personally would never use it but other people might. And losing a game isn't going to help you remember to inject every 32 seconds. It might reinforce injecting is important--but that doesn't help new players with small multitasking abilities able to remember to inject.
On June 26 2012 03:21 InfCereal wrote: You don't understand. This is essentially map hacking.
On June 26 2012 03:04 Inquisitor1323 wrote: Hide nested quote - On June 26 2012 02:43 Inquisitor1323 wrote: The hardest part of playing zerg is keeping on top of your injects, this just makes zerg easy. It's cheap.
Don't talk if you're just going to make shit up. You have absolutely no idea what makes zerg hard if you think you lost to a silver
Are you seriously telling me "learn to macro" after you claim the hardest part about zerg is simply injecting? Laugh out fucking loud.
Man, drg is the best with injects right? Since hes like the best zerg? Oh wait! I saw him with almost 75 energy on all his queens yesterday when he was streaming. That must mean hes a horrible zerg and shoudl have been losing all his matches right?
If you're going to insult me, at least make it long, your short posts are just useless banter.
Fine by me. It's a hard part but not the only part of playing zerg. Sorry if I'm a little biased. That being said, this is clearly cheating. A big part of starcraft is remembering to do things like build supply depots, units, upgrades, etc. This is a tool that basically tells you when to inject and thus you dont have to remember to do it on your own. You need to inject to build units, and you need to have units to win the game. Concerning DRG, 75 energy on his queens may mean he's not using that queen for injecting and going for one of those lovely 6 queen defense openings. This isnt rocket science bro. Stop getting pissy over it. Learn to inject and you will play better.
So is having a coach or a friend teach you how to play also cheating? They help you remember to build stuff and give suggestions. By this logic most things would be considered cheating.
On June 26 2012 03:26 FailCow wrote: So is having a coach or a friend teach you how to play also cheating? They help you remember to build stuff and give suggestions. By this logic most things would be considered cheating.
If you're playing on the ladder and they are helping you then, yes, technically that is cheating.
On June 26 2012 03:04 Inquisitor1323 wrote: Hide nested quote - On June 26 2012 02:43 Inquisitor1323 wrote: The hardest part of playing zerg is keeping on top of your injects, this just makes zerg easy. It's cheap.
Don't talk if you're just going to make shit up. You have absolutely no idea what makes zerg hard if you think you lost to a silver
Are you seriously telling me "learn to macro" after you claim the hardest part about zerg is simply injecting? Laugh out fucking loud.
Man, drg is the best with injects right? Since hes like the best zerg? Oh wait! I saw him with almost 75 energy on all his queens yesterday when he was streaming. That must mean hes a horrible zerg and shoudl have been losing all his matches right?
If you're going to insult me, at least make it long, your short posts are just useless banter.
Fine by me. It's a hard part but not the only part of playing zerg. Sorry if I'm a little biased. That being said, this is clearly cheating. A big part of starcraft is remembering to do things like build supply depots, units, upgrades, etc. This is a tool that basically tells you when to inject and thus you dont have to remember to do it on your own. You need to inject to build units, and you need to have units to win the game. Concerning DRG, 75 energy on his queens may mean he's not using that queen for injecting and going for one of those lovely 6 queen defense openings. This isnt rocket science bro. Stop getting pissy over it. Learn to inject and you will play better.
1.) So you admit you're wrong about the only thing I cared about. 2.) DRG had 4 queens, i wouldn't mention this otherwise, this isnt rocket science bro. 3.) Whoa?! You need to inject to build units?! You should totally write a guide man! I bet you'd blow away everyone with your profound zerg knowledge. 4.) Telling someone that injects fine and doesn't use this lame program to learn to inject just makes you sound really silly. Why are you fucking telling me to learn to inject?
Also, a LITTLE biased?! You claimed that the hardest part about the zerg race is injecting, when, in fact, if you had ANY knowledge of playing the race, you'd know its like the easiest thing to do.
Also I'm going to ask everyone that thinks this is cheating a question. If you were listening to a song with a certain beat that had the same timer as queen injects would THAT be cheating as well? =))
On June 26 2012 03:26 FailCow wrote: So is having a coach or a friend teach you how to play also cheating? They help you remember to build stuff and give suggestions. By this logic most things would be considered cheating.
If you're playing on the ladder and they are helping you then, yes, technically that is cheating.
No one cares though, nor should they.
I think you guys take ladder way to seriously... there are ladder rules and tournament rules... ladder is casual and is for practice.
Its in an tournament environment where this could be considered cheating.
On June 26 2012 03:26 FailCow wrote: So is having a coach or a friend teach you how to play also cheating? They help you remember to build stuff and give suggestions. By this logic most things would be considered cheating.
On Ladder, yes. Basically everything is cheating that will give you an edge and is not provided by the game itself. But there are either those who want to win by all means, or those who don't care about it. And in these cases they aren't really better then your common grand master hacker. I really dislike this everyone can do it argument though as I like to win with my own skill and not some skill boosting things. And the ladder would consist of 90% maphackers etc at the end.
competition should be based on an even environment and nothing else. For cheating and training purposes custom games should be used.
But i doubt someone plays ladder seriously nowadays expecting your opponent playing fair.
On June 26 2012 03:04 Inquisitor1323 wrote: Hide nested quote - On June 26 2012 02:43 Inquisitor1323 wrote: The hardest part of playing zerg is keeping on top of your injects, this just makes zerg easy. It's cheap.
Don't talk if you're just going to make shit up. You have absolutely no idea what makes zerg hard if you think you lost to a silver
Are you seriously telling me "learn to macro" after you claim the hardest part about zerg is simply injecting? Laugh out fucking loud.
Man, drg is the best with injects right? Since hes like the best zerg? Oh wait! I saw him with almost 75 energy on all his queens yesterday when he was streaming. That must mean hes a horrible zerg and shoudl have been losing all his matches right?
If you're going to insult me, at least make it long, your short posts are just useless banter.
Fine by me. It's a hard part but not the only part of playing zerg. Sorry if I'm a little biased. That being said, this is clearly cheating. A big part of starcraft is remembering to do things like build supply depots, units, upgrades, etc. This is a tool that basically tells you when to inject and thus you dont have to remember to do it on your own. You need to inject to build units, and you need to have units to win the game. Concerning DRG, 75 energy on his queens may mean he's not using that queen for injecting and going for one of those lovely 6 queen defense openings. This isnt rocket science bro. Stop getting pissy over it. Learn to inject and you will play better.
1.) So you admit you're wrong about the only thing I cared about. 2.) DRG had 4 queens, i wouldn't mention this otherwise, this isnt rocket science bro. 3.) Whoa?! You need to inject to build units?! You should totally write a guide man! I bet you'd blow away everyone with your profound zerg knowledge. 4.) Telling someone that injects fine and doesn't use this lame program to learn to inject just makes you sound really silly. Why are you fucking telling me to learn to inject?
Also, a LITTLE biased?! You claimed that the hardest part about the zerg race is injecting, when, in fact, if you had ANY knowledge of playing the race, you'd know its like the easiest thing to do.
Also I'm going to ask everyone that thinks this is cheating a question. If you were listening to a song with a certain beat that had the same timer as queen injects would THAT be cheating as well? =))
The fact that someone like DRG who has absurdly fast apm and good multi-task can still fall behind on injects should tell you that it's incredibly difficult. Is it the hardest thing to stay on top of injects? maybe, maybe not, but when the best players in the game fall behind with it you certainly can't call it the easiest thing to do.
On June 26 2012 03:26 FailCow wrote: So is having a coach or a friend teach you how to play also cheating? They help you remember to build stuff and give suggestions. By this logic most things would be considered cheating.
If you're playing on the ladder and they are helping you then, yes, technically that is cheating.
No one cares though, nor should they.
I think you guys take ladder way to seriously... there are ladder rules and tournament rules... ladder is casual and is for practice.
Its in an tournament environment where this could be considered cheating.
Technically it's cheating.
You can say you disagree with this statement all you like, but it's still true. If you want to derive from that: that I take ladder way too seriously that's fine. Especially after the part where I said, and I quote: "No one cares, nor should they."
On June 26 2012 03:04 Inquisitor1323 wrote: Hide nested quote - On June 26 2012 02:43 Inquisitor1323 wrote: The hardest part of playing zerg is keeping on top of your injects, this just makes zerg easy. It's cheap.
Don't talk if you're just going to make shit up. You have absolutely no idea what makes zerg hard if you think you lost to a silver
Are you seriously telling me "learn to macro" after you claim the hardest part about zerg is simply injecting? Laugh out fucking loud.
Man, drg is the best with injects right? Since hes like the best zerg? Oh wait! I saw him with almost 75 energy on all his queens yesterday when he was streaming. That must mean hes a horrible zerg and shoudl have been losing all his matches right?
If you're going to insult me, at least make it long, your short posts are just useless banter.
Fine by me. It's a hard part but not the only part of playing zerg. Sorry if I'm a little biased. That being said, this is clearly cheating. A big part of starcraft is remembering to do things like build supply depots, units, upgrades, etc. This is a tool that basically tells you when to inject and thus you dont have to remember to do it on your own. You need to inject to build units, and you need to have units to win the game. Concerning DRG, 75 energy on his queens may mean he's not using that queen for injecting and going for one of those lovely 6 queen defense openings. This isnt rocket science bro. Stop getting pissy over it. Learn to inject and you will play better.
1.) So you admit you're wrong about the only thing I cared about. 2.) DRG had 4 queens, i wouldn't mention this otherwise, this isnt rocket science bro. 3.) Whoa?! You need to inject to build units?! You should totally write a guide man! I bet you'd blow away everyone with your profound zerg knowledge. 4.) Telling someone that injects fine and doesn't use this lame program to learn to inject just makes you sound really silly. Why are you fucking telling me to learn to inject?
Also, a LITTLE biased?! You claimed that the hardest part about the zerg race is injecting, when, in fact, if you had ANY knowledge of playing the race, you'd know its like the easiest thing to do.
Also I'm going to ask everyone that thinks this is cheating a question. If you were listening to a song with a certain beat that had the same timer as queen injects would THAT be cheating as well? =))
The fact that someone like DRG who has absurdly fast apm and good multi-task can still fall behind on injects should tell you that it's incredibly difficult. Is it the hardest thing to stay on top of injects? maybe, maybe not, but when the best players in the game fall behind with it you certainly can't call it the easiest thing to do.
I saw him do it once. His injects were pretty flawless otherwise as expected. It's extremely easy, and his original point was that its the hardest thing to do as zerg, which is just complete talking out of your butt nonsense.
WHy you can't use backspace + select larva method? Do that every 40 seconds and it becomes an easiest race to play. Terrans and Protosses are less comfort, than zergs with their injections
You can say you disagree with this statement all you like, but it's still true. If you want to derive from that: that I take ladder way too seriously that's fine. Especially after the part where I said, and I quote: "No one cares, nor should they."
Are there official ladder rules anywhere? If it is "technically" cheating, then it has to actually break a rule. I would say it is clearly in violation of "the spirit of competition" or something like that... but that is different.
On June 26 2012 03:42 Tachion wrote: Show nested quote +
I saw him do it once. His injects were pretty flawless otherwise as expected. It's extremely easy, and his original point was that its the hardest thing to do as zerg, which is just complete talking out of your butt nonsense.
It's a matter of opinion really. From what I've seen injecting does seem to be a major part of playing zerg. If not, what is the hardest mechanic in playing zerg?
On June 26 2012 03:46 Existor wrote: WHy you can't use backspace + select larva method? Do that every 40 seconds and it becomes an easiest race to play. Terrans and Protosses are less comfort, than zergs with their injections
LOL terran and toss macro is easy , just all buldings under one key , and produce. When you play zerg you got the same situation , but you must inject larva. One larva E can decide of game.. you forgot it , you lose..
I dont understand you.. less comfort is hiting produce or warp key ? , maby we are playing diffrent gams
On June 26 2012 03:46 Existor wrote: WHy you can't use backspace + select larva method? Do that every 40 seconds and it becomes an easiest race to play. Terrans and Protosses are less comfort, than zergs with their injections
Yes but remembering to do that is the point of the OPs timer.
And your last statement is like saying "Terran is the easiest race to play if you can keep track of mule energy." Completely untrue for all 3 races.
On June 26 2012 03:46 Existor wrote: WHy you can't use backspace + select larva method? Do that every 40 seconds and it becomes an easiest race to play. Terrans and Protosses are less comfort, than zergs with their injections
LOL terran and toss macro is easy , just all buldings under one key , and produce. When you play zerg you got the same situation , but you must inject larva. One larva E can decide of game.. you forgot it , you lose..
I dont understand you.. less comfort is hiting produce or warp key ? , maby we are playing diffrent gams
That's actually completely false. I understand people like to think they play the hardest race (assuming you play zerg), but you don't need to exaggerate like that. I used to main zerg, got to low masters (not great, but good enough for me), and injecting isn't nearly as unforgiving as you mention.
Early game it's pretty important, you're right. But it's also very easy to have perfect injects for the first 10 minutes of a game, it's when it becomes more involved and hectic that people start to get worse. And even then, if you inject every 50 seconds instead of 40, 9.5 times out of 10, you're not going to lose a game because of that.
Are there official ladder rules anywhere? If it is "technically" cheating, then it has to actually break a rule. I would say it is clearly in violation of "the spirit of competition" or something like that... but that is different.
Using a 3rd party program has nothing to do with competitive spirit, it's clearly cheating.
I dont see how anyone can claim that this would be fair play at all, it is a 3rd party program that gives you a unfair advantage over your opponent, unless he has the software as well.
Anything that gives you a handicap is bullcrap.
On June 26 2012 04:04 ToAn8 wrote: Then counting in ur head would also be considered cheating ?
Your opponent can count in his head as well(maybe he cant if he is bad). But he does not have a software doing it for him. That gives you an unfair advantage. How is this difficult to comprehend?
You can say you disagree with this statement all you like, but it's still true. If you want to derive from that: that I take ladder way too seriously that's fine. Especially after the part where I said, and I quote: "No one cares, nor should they."
Are there official ladder rules anywhere? If it is "technically" cheating, then it has to actually break a rule. I would say it is clearly in violation of "the spirit of competition" or something like that... but that is different.
I used the word technically for a reason. Blizzard has terms of service you know. Third party software is an obvious breach. Using out of game things that aren't computer hardware accessible to all to gain an advantage while playing is less obvious but still there.
I don't feel like going through the TOS to find a quote but you get the idea.
this IS cheating. not really a need for discussion, though i´d like to clarify as it seems unclear to many: A software, that is not available to all players by deafult ( you have to install it) that gives you a clear advantage in the game, by giving you an information that the game doesnt provide. Plain to see it´s a cheat.
On June 26 2012 03:04 Inquisitor1323 wrote: Hide nested quote - On June 26 2012 02:43 Inquisitor1323 wrote: The hardest part of playing zerg is keeping on top of your injects, this just makes zerg easy. It's cheap.
Don't talk if you're just going to make shit up. You have absolutely no idea what makes zerg hard if you think you lost to a silver
Are you seriously telling me "learn to macro" after you claim the hardest part about zerg is simply injecting? Laugh out fucking loud.
Man, drg is the best with injects right? Since hes like the best zerg? Oh wait! I saw him with almost 75 energy on all his queens yesterday when he was streaming. That must mean hes a horrible zerg and shoudl have been losing all his matches right?
If you're going to insult me, at least make it long, your short posts are just useless banter.
Fine by me. It's a hard part but not the only part of playing zerg. Sorry if I'm a little biased. That being said, this is clearly cheating. A big part of starcraft is remembering to do things like build supply depots, units, upgrades, etc. This is a tool that basically tells you when to inject and thus you dont have to remember to do it on your own. You need to inject to build units, and you need to have units to win the game. Concerning DRG, 75 energy on his queens may mean he's not using that queen for injecting and going for one of those lovely 6 queen defense openings. This isnt rocket science bro. Stop getting pissy over it. Learn to inject and you will play better.
1.) So you admit you're wrong about the only thing I cared about. 2.) DRG had 4 queens, i wouldn't mention this otherwise, this isnt rocket science bro. 3.) Whoa?! You need to inject to build units?! You should totally write a guide man! I bet you'd blow away everyone with your profound zerg knowledge. 4.) Telling someone that injects fine and doesn't use this lame program to learn to inject just makes you sound really silly. Why are you fucking telling me to learn to inject?
Also, a LITTLE biased?! You claimed that the hardest part about the zerg race is injecting, when, in fact, if you had ANY knowledge of playing the race, you'd know its like the easiest thing to do.
Also I'm going to ask everyone that thinks this is cheating a question. If you were listening to a song with a certain beat that had the same timer as queen injects would THAT be cheating as well? =))
umm, kinda yeah. i mean, it wouldnt be allowed in tournament play, so i guess it would be cheating. i dont think anyone really cares about little things on the ladder, if it teaches you a rhythm then thats all good, but i dont imagine you'd get much self-fulfilment from having good injects if you were using a timer for it. and thing thing about floating energy on your queens is that unless you have one queen per hatch and never more, your injects can be perfect and you still stock energy on at least one of them. and having energy on a queen for transfuse is a good thing in alot of circumstances. obviously DRG doesn't have perfect injects all the time, but most top tier zergs have very good injects, and it is something that makes a noticeable difference between very good zergs and just mediocre zergs. plus your wrong about injecting being the easiest thing to do as zerg. the easiest thing to do is press SRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. (not a balance whine, i dont thing roaches are broken enough for blizzard to attempt to fix them)
saying this is cheating is like saying APM Alert in broodwars ChaosLauncher or APMAlert in SC2Ranks is cheating because if your opponent isn't using it and you are you know when you're getting lazy and your multi-tasking is dropping. ^^:
If the argument is that this gives you an unfair advantage over your opponent, how is this different from watching the alerts? The game tells you when an inject is done, and this program just does the same thing.
I wonder if playing with all sounds muted except alerts would be a better way to remind yourself to inject.
On June 26 2012 04:51 johnnybravo wrote: If the argument is that this gives you an unfair advantage over your opponent, how is this different from watching the alerts? The game tells you when an inject is done, and this program just does the same thing.
I wonder if playing with all sounds muted except alerts would be a better way to remind yourself to inject.
If its the same as watching the alerts why do you need this program?
On June 26 2012 04:34 sc2CruSha wrote: saying this is cheating is like saying APM Alert in broodwars ChaosLauncher or APMAlert in SC2Ranks is cheating because if your opponent isn't using it and you are you know when you're getting lazy and your multi-tasking is dropping. ^^:
Dont be silly, the APM meters are simply a gauge for how fast you are playing. It does not make any part of the game easier.
If the argument is that this gives you an unfair advantage over your opponent, how is this different from watching the alerts? The game tells you when an inject is done, and this program just does the same thing.
I wonder if playing with all sounds muted except alerts would be a better way to remind yourself to inject.
The ingame tool does not play a sound at you, also it is available to everyone.
I dont see how this is cheating. It does not give you a real advantage..thus it is not cheating.
When i did piano lessons, i used to have a metronome... this tool is just the same for starcraft, to help you learn get a good feel of when to use your macro stuff. Sorry but i do not understand what all the shouting around about cheating is here.
On June 26 2012 07:16 Xenocide_EU wrote: I dont see how this is cheating. It does not give you a real advantage..thus it is not cheating.
When i did piano lessons, i used to have a metronome... this tool is just the same for starcraft, to help you learn get a good feel of when to use your macro stuff. Sorry but i do not understand what all the shouting around about cheating is here.
are you mentally retarded? when you have a recital, do you have a metronome on the entire time while playing? No.
On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote: It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban.
Since when has Blizzard been unforgiving regarding 3rd Party Software?
Last I knew, maphacking was running rampant everywhere...but I guess this post was made nine months ago, too. :/
On June 26 2012 07:16 Xenocide_EU wrote: I dont see how this is cheating. It does not give you a real advantage..thus it is not cheating.
When i did piano lessons, i used to have a metronome... this tool is just the same for starcraft, to help you learn get a good feel of when to use your macro stuff. Sorry but i do not understand what all the shouting around about cheating is here.
are you mentally retarded? when you have a recital, do you have a metronome on the entire time while playing? No.
User was temp banned for this post.
Ignoring the first part of that post. During a recital you dont use a metronome because it would not sound/look very good before a live audience..that is the only reason. Also, ladder is practice as mentioned before. There have even been tools that tell you when to make what building using the same mechanics as this timer (was some build order creation tool), i also do not consider that cheating as it is the same as writing a build order on a piece of paper and quickly looking at it now and then while you play.
Name from the post maker is idiotech i think that something mean, on training vs pc maybe but i wonder if ppl dont use it on ladder or tour or only to beat better friend...... for these programs i have in my pc special spot trash for recyclation....is sad i cant recyclate users of this cheating s...s or makers......
On November 17 2011 11:48 idiotech wrote: It just a tool to help people learn
To learn what? I only see this one as a cheat. Hey lets make programs that automatically executes build orders, no that totally not cheating.
Have you actually downloaded it? It is a stopwatch, it counts down from 32 seconds and then makes a beep. How can you even compare it with auto executing a build order?
Ah well, i know i will be trying this out, to get a better feel for hitting my chronoes.
But everyone his/her opinion, but i highly doubt if blizzard would ban people for this.
On November 17 2011 11:48 idiotech wrote: It just a tool to help people learn
To learn what? I only see this one as a cheat. Hey lets make programs that automatically executes build orders, no that totally not cheating.
I downloaded it to give it a shot. Really after awhile you get use to the sound and it sometimes alerts me that I need to inject maybe if it said inject it be different. The beep just becomes a redundant sound that you get use to quickly from my experience. In the end I stopped using it after 3 days and just remember to check my hatches more frequently. Maybe for some it works maybe for some it doesn't do anything.
I think the important thing with injects is finding your method of injecting and sticking with it the timing will come with practice. Some people backspace some don't I saw somebody bring up drg who just goes to his hatches and swipes and injects. I think having a set method is probably the best method to learn at first.
EPT
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