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On November 17 2011 13:28 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:23 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 17 2011 13:20 Mohdoo wrote:On November 17 2011 13:16 Nemireck wrote:On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy. Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game. What's your point? My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this. As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you. The vast majority of players will never make a single dime playing SC2. Its ridiculous to act like anything besides a televised match is important. Being a master league player, I was surprised when I realized that my gold/silver friends actually take the game seriously and try to improve, but its true. The game is intended to be a competitive atmosphere, and someone not making money doing it does not mean that it isn't important to them. By your logic, nothing competitive should be taken seriously at all unless there is big money or fame involved. Your argument completely ignores the competitive aspect of the game, which is the focus of the vast majority of the people who play it. I don't even play the game much anymore, but its pretty rude to say that something a lot of people actively enjoy doing is useless. It also ignores the reality for a huge amount of people.
I never said useless. Ladder and the amateur competitiveness can serve as recreation.
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Nice program, good to see more of these tools for learning.
This is a tool for learning. Using it in a tournament would be cheating, using it to practice your inject timings is perfectly acceptable and a good idea for getting them down solidly.
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On November 17 2011 13:20 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:16 Nemireck wrote:On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy. Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game. What's your point? My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this. Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:16 ODieN wrote:On November 17 2011 12:00 Fruscainte wrote:On November 17 2011 11:59 anonymitylol wrote:On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote:
It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban. Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all? You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage. SC2Gears is a 3rd party program as well. As far as I know, this program here doesn't inject anything to StarCraft 2. If anyone honestly thinks this is cheating, I feel sorry for you :p SC2gears doesn't influence your play while you are in a game. The issue is using something to help you while you are in a game against another player.
SC2 gears has a built-in APM alert that you can use as a reminder when you start to get lazy. Is it cheating to use it?
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Feels kinda like cheating 
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On November 17 2011 13:24 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:23 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 17 2011 13:20 Mohdoo wrote:On November 17 2011 13:16 Nemireck wrote:On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy. Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game. What's your point? My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this. As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you. Ok, what about helping bad players in tournaments? What if there was a bronze tournament with a cash prize and the winner was using outside programs? My point is the skill of the player shouldn't matter. As for laddering not mattering, that's just your opinion.
As for your statement about my statement about laddering not mattering being nothing else than my opinion, that's just your opinion.
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On November 17 2011 13:39 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:37 Frozenhelfire wrote:On November 17 2011 13:33 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:27 U_G_L_Y wrote:On November 17 2011 13:19 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:18 U_G_L_Y wrote:On November 17 2011 13:14 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:55 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 12:49 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:47 Frozenhelfire wrote:
[quote]
If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy. Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here. Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time. Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is. Is listening to music while laddering cheating? If the music tells you what to do in game at exactly the right times then yes. That comparison doesn't even make sense. It does tell me what to do. It reminds me to cycle through my hot keys, which I would not otherwise not remember to do. This is not opinion; I have a database of thousands of BW replays and have proven that my gaming mix makes me play faster. Rhapsody is a third party program that reminds me to do things that I am not doing. Is this cheating? I have a hard time believing this is true. But if it is, and it could be, it still isn't cheating. The other guy can listen to music too. Or maybe he plays faster without music. It depends where you draw the line. Either way we're just arguing semantics. If you think listening to music to improve your play is anywhere near as egregious as possibly never missing a larva inject due to a built in reminder that the other guy probably PROBABLY doesn't have, then there's no point in discussing where to draw the line between cheating and not cheating. We'll have to agree to disagree. A built-in reminder the other guy probably doesn't have? Looks pretty built-in to me. The reminder in the OPs program is not built in. This is simply a different form of a reminder. The game has sounds and visual alerts. Yea I see it and I know it exists. It's built into the game and everyone has it. That's an entirely different matter, and from the sounds of it the in game one is not nearly as obvious.
I have long been considering (but have thus far been too lazy/busy) changing my gaming mix playlist to a single song - an audio recording of me yelling "Supply, resources, minimap, 4! 5! 6! 7!"
Is that cheating?
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On November 17 2011 13:42 HK_TPZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:24 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:23 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 17 2011 13:20 Mohdoo wrote:On November 17 2011 13:16 Nemireck wrote:On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy. Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game. What's your point? My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this. As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you. Ok, what about helping bad players in tournaments? What if there was a bronze tournament with a cash prize and the winner was using outside programs? My point is the skill of the player shouldn't matter. As for laddering not mattering, that's just your opinion. As for your statement about my statement about laddering not mattering being nothing else than my opinion, that's just your opinion.
In my opinion, it is a fact that that my statement about your statement where you voice your opinion about ladder not mattering was in fact an opinion and not a fact.
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On November 17 2011 13:44 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:39 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:37 Frozenhelfire wrote:On November 17 2011 13:33 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:27 U_G_L_Y wrote:On November 17 2011 13:19 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:18 U_G_L_Y wrote:On November 17 2011 13:14 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:55 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 12:49 hitpoint wrote:
[quote]
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here. Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time. Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is. Is listening to music while laddering cheating? If the music tells you what to do in game at exactly the right times then yes. That comparison doesn't even make sense. It does tell me what to do. It reminds me to cycle through my hot keys, which I would not otherwise not remember to do. This is not opinion; I have a database of thousands of BW replays and have proven that my gaming mix makes me play faster. Rhapsody is a third party program that reminds me to do things that I am not doing. Is this cheating? I have a hard time believing this is true. But if it is, and it could be, it still isn't cheating. The other guy can listen to music too. Or maybe he plays faster without music. It depends where you draw the line. Either way we're just arguing semantics. If you think listening to music to improve your play is anywhere near as egregious as possibly never missing a larva inject due to a built in reminder that the other guy probably PROBABLY doesn't have, then there's no point in discussing where to draw the line between cheating and not cheating. We'll have to agree to disagree. A built-in reminder the other guy probably doesn't have? Looks pretty built-in to me. The reminder in the OPs program is not built in. This is simply a different form of a reminder. The game has sounds and visual alerts. Yea I see it and I know it exists. It's built into the game and everyone has it. That's an entirely different matter, and from the sounds of it the in game one is not nearly as obvious. I have long been considering (but have thus far been too lazy/busy) changing my gaming mix playlist to a single song - an audio recording of me yelling "Supply, resources, minimap, 4! 5! 6! 7!" Is that cheating?
yes ---
how do you sleep at night knowing that you play unfair!?!?
In case someone's sarcasm detector doesnt work, I agree with the guy whom I quote.
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On November 17 2011 13:46 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:42 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 17 2011 13:24 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:23 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 17 2011 13:20 Mohdoo wrote:On November 17 2011 13:16 Nemireck wrote:On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy. Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game. What's your point? My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this. As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you. Ok, what about helping bad players in tournaments? What if there was a bronze tournament with a cash prize and the winner was using outside programs? My point is the skill of the player shouldn't matter. As for laddering not mattering, that's just your opinion. As for your statement about my statement about laddering not mattering being nothing else than my opinion, that's just your opinion. In my opinion, it is a fact that that my statement about your statement where you voice your opinion about ladder not mattering was in fact an opinion and not a fact.
thanks for sharing your perceptual reality
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This isn't cheating any more than eating well and getting rest is. They both give you an unfair advantage that some people won't do/can't do.
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I don't get where all this cheating nonsense is coming from. Are you playing to win or get better? Do you prefer to play against better or worse players?
In the end, this is just a tool used to get better.
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On November 17 2011 13:44 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:39 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:37 Frozenhelfire wrote:On November 17 2011 13:33 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:27 U_G_L_Y wrote:On November 17 2011 13:19 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:18 U_G_L_Y wrote:On November 17 2011 13:14 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:55 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 12:49 hitpoint wrote:
[quote]
Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here. Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time. Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is. Is listening to music while laddering cheating? If the music tells you what to do in game at exactly the right times then yes. That comparison doesn't even make sense. It does tell me what to do. It reminds me to cycle through my hot keys, which I would not otherwise not remember to do. This is not opinion; I have a database of thousands of BW replays and have proven that my gaming mix makes me play faster. Rhapsody is a third party program that reminds me to do things that I am not doing. Is this cheating? I have a hard time believing this is true. But if it is, and it could be, it still isn't cheating. The other guy can listen to music too. Or maybe he plays faster without music. It depends where you draw the line. Either way we're just arguing semantics. If you think listening to music to improve your play is anywhere near as egregious as possibly never missing a larva inject due to a built in reminder that the other guy probably PROBABLY doesn't have, then there's no point in discussing where to draw the line between cheating and not cheating. We'll have to agree to disagree. A built-in reminder the other guy probably doesn't have? Looks pretty built-in to me. The reminder in the OPs program is not built in. This is simply a different form of a reminder. The game has sounds and visual alerts. Yea I see it and I know it exists. It's built into the game and everyone has it. That's an entirely different matter, and from the sounds of it the in game one is not nearly as obvious. I have long been considering (but have thus far been too lazy/busy) changing my gaming mix playlist to a single song - an audio recording of me yelling "Supply, resources, minimap, 4! 5! 6! 7!" Is that cheating?
I don't know, probably not, that's too weird and obscure. This feels like a political debate something where neither side can agree on where to draw the line and each side gives an example that the other can't contradict. We're not talking about music.
I could say aim bot in a FPS isn't cheating because the other person has cross-hairs and knows how to aim the gun, so what's the harm in doing it for him? He would probably would do it anyway right? Maybe, maybe not.
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Checked it out.., looks great my man. I'm actually really loving the Critical Mass game you have on your website. Real neat.. Reminds me a lot of the Tetrisphere 64 game.. Oh man does it bring back memories.. Keep it up buddy 
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On November 17 2011 13:14 HK_TPZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 12:59 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 12:56 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 17 2011 11:48 Gamegene wrote:
I consider larva injects a good measure of how strong a Zerg player is. This is just way too artificial for me... ;; what? A good way of determining the skill of a Zerg player is to see if he misses larva injects. Nestea, for example, misses very few if any. my what meant "rofl omg what noob Zerg misses injects"
You fail to recognize that that is not something that is easily doable when in high micro situations. Since you obviously don't know what you're talking about, you should probably watch replays of pro Zergs and see how often they miss larva injects. You will see that it happens quite often. So I guess what I meant was, "HAHAHA you're a fucking idiot, as you clearly are just talking out of your ass HAHAHA."
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Doesn't seem like cheating to me. But, I wouldn't use it.
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The problem is that this program is specifically targeted to assist with larvae injects, not just a song.
Songs are different, they don't specifically target certain timings such as larvae injects and/or any other timing (Supply, random timing pushes, etc.)
I would definitely say no to this program.
Poll: Is this cheating?No (88) 72% Yes (31) 25% Maybe/Undecided (3) 2% 122 total votes Your vote: Is this cheating? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Maybe/Undecided
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On November 17 2011 13:56 Ercster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:14 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 17 2011 12:59 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 12:56 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 17 2011 11:48 Gamegene wrote:
I consider larva injects a good measure of how strong a Zerg player is. This is just way too artificial for me... ;; what? A good way of determining the skill of a Zerg player is to see if he misses larva injects. Nestea, for example, misses very few if any. my what meant "rofl omg what noob Zerg misses injects" You fail to recognize that that is not something that is easily doable when in high micro situations. Since you obviously don't know what you're talking about, you should probably watch replays of pro Zergs and see how often they miss larva injects. You will see that it happens quite often. So I guess what I meant was, "HAHAHA you're a fucking idiot, as you clearly are just talking out of your ass HAHAHA."
You talk about missing injects while being busy with something else?
remind me, gentleman, how the software would help someone to multitask better
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As long as this doesn't edit the SC2 client in anyway it's not cheating. It would be the same as recording yourself saying and playing back "Inject" every 32 seconds.
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On November 17 2011 13:14 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 12:55 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 12:49 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:47 Frozenhelfire wrote:On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote:
This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED. If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy. Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here. Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time. Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is.
If you're not using ladder for practice, then what are you using it for?
Now I recognize answering this question might be a little difficult for you, so I will help. LADDER IS FOR PRACTICE! YOU GAIN NOTHING FROM LADDERING BUT PRACTICE!
So no, you are in fact wrong, but nice try.
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lol @ this being considered as cheating. Remember how everybody was like "Yea! Ingame timer is BS! Broodwar didn't have ingame timer! That's cheating" and now everybody's using it? yea
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EPT
