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On November 17 2011 12:00 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 11:59 anonymitylol wrote:On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote:
It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban. Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all? You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage.
SC2Gears is a 3rd party program as well.
As far as I know, this program here doesn't inject anything to StarCraft 2.
If anyone honestly thinks this is cheating, I feel sorry for you :p
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On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy.
Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game.
What's your point?
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theres already an in game notification. Why do you need this additional tool to help you remember when to inject?
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On November 17 2011 13:14 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 12:55 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 12:49 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:47 Frozenhelfire wrote:On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote:
This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED. If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy. Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here. Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time. Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is.
Is listening to music while laddering cheating?
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On November 17 2011 13:18 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:14 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:55 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 12:49 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:47 Frozenhelfire wrote:On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote:
This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED. If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy. Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here. Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time. Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is. Is listening to music while laddering cheating?
If the music tells you what to do in game at exactly the right times then yes. That comparison doesn't even make sense.
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If player A plays gold level without the software and platinum with, how does that affect player B who plays platinum level as well. Blizzard's match making system works very well. As far as tournaments go, the software wouldnt change anything in important matches.
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On November 17 2011 13:16 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy. Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game. What's your point?
My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this.
On November 17 2011 13:16 ODieN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 12:00 Fruscainte wrote:On November 17 2011 11:59 anonymitylol wrote:On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote:
It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban. Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all? You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage. SC2Gears is a 3rd party program as well. As far as I know, this program here doesn't inject anything to StarCraft 2. If anyone honestly thinks this is cheating, I feel sorry for you :p
SC2gears doesn't influence your play while you are in a game. The issue is using something to help you while you are in a game against another player.
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I would not consider this to be cheating as in Blizzard would take action if they somehow knew but it is definitely unethical.
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On November 17 2011 13:20 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:16 Nemireck wrote:On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy. Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game. What's your point? My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this.
As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you.
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On November 17 2011 13:23 HK_TPZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:20 Mohdoo wrote:On November 17 2011 13:16 Nemireck wrote:On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy. Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game. What's your point? My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this. As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you.
Ok, what about helping bad players in tournaments? What if there was a bronze tournament with a cash prize and the winner was using outside programs? My point is the skill of the player shouldn't matter.
As for laddering not mattering, that's just your opinion.
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On November 17 2011 13:19 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:18 U_G_L_Y wrote:On November 17 2011 13:14 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:55 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 12:49 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:47 Frozenhelfire wrote:On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote:
This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED. If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy. Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here. Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time. Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is. Is listening to music while laddering cheating? If the music tells you what to do in game at exactly the right times then yes. That comparison doesn't even make sense.
It does tell me what to do. It reminds me to cycle through my hot keys, which I would not otherwise not remember to do. This is not opinion; I have a database of thousands of BW replays and have proven that my gaming mix makes me play faster. Rhapsody is a third party program that reminds me to do things that I am not doing. Is this cheating?
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Reading the strategy forum might give you an advantage over your opponent. Just like the inject timer though, it isn't an unfair advantage. It doesn't allow you to do anything you couldn't otherwise do.
I want my opponents on the ladder to be as good as they can possibly be and hope that people use all tools they can to bring their best possible game.
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On November 17 2011 13:23 HK_TPZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:20 Mohdoo wrote:On November 17 2011 13:16 Nemireck wrote:On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy. Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game. What's your point? My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this. As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you.
The vast majority of players will never make a single dime playing SC2. Its ridiculous to act like anything besides a televised match is important. Being a master league player, I was surprised when I realized that my gold/silver friends actually take the game seriously and try to improve, but its true. The game is intended to be a competitive atmosphere, and someone not making money doing it does not mean that it isn't important to them. By your logic, nothing competitive should be taken seriously at all unless there is big money or fame involved. Your argument completely ignores the competitive aspect of the game, which is the focus of the vast majority of the people who play it.
I don't even play the game much anymore, but its pretty rude to say that something a lot of people actively enjoy doing is useless. It also ignores the reality for a huge amount of people.
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On November 17 2011 13:27 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:19 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:18 U_G_L_Y wrote:On November 17 2011 13:14 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:55 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 12:49 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:47 Frozenhelfire wrote:On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote:
This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED. If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy. Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here. Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time. Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is. Is listening to music while laddering cheating? If the music tells you what to do in game at exactly the right times then yes. That comparison doesn't even make sense. It does tell me what to do. It reminds me to cycle through my hot keys, which I would not otherwise not remember to do. This is not opinion; I have a database of thousands of BW replays and have proven that my gaming mix makes me play faster. Rhapsody is a third party program that reminds me to do things that I am not doing. Is this cheating?
I have a hard time believing this is true. But if it is, and it could be, it still isn't cheating. The other guy can listen to music too. Or maybe he plays faster without music. It depends where you draw the line.
Either way we're just arguing semantics. If you think listening to music to improve your play is anywhere near as egregious as possibly never missing a larva inject due to a built in reminder that the other guy PROBABLY doesn't have, then there's no point in discussing where to draw the line between cheating and not cheating. We'll have to agree to disagree.
I think this might be useful for practice or something.
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On November 17 2011 13:13 idiotech wrote:
Didn't intend for my first post to start a flame war... lol
LOL don't worry you could post what you had for lunch and it would produce some kind of flame war...
I don't think this is cheating, someone who is bad is still gonna miss an inject when the timer goes off then the timer will be fucked and then its useless anyway.
Its good for helping create a mental clock to get better... In the end I think this well help a lot of players because a lot of lower level zergs are really bad at injects.
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On November 17 2011 13:20 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:16 Nemireck wrote:On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy. Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game. What's your point? My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this. Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:16 ODieN wrote:On November 17 2011 12:00 Fruscainte wrote:On November 17 2011 11:59 anonymitylol wrote:On November 17 2011 11:59 WuK wrote:
It sounds awesome, but Blizzard has always been pretty unforgiving regarding any tiers software that would create a disadvantage to the player not using it so you should probably be aware that you might get banned if they don't like it. If I were you i would post on the official forums to ask if you can use it or not if you don't want to get an unintended ban. Uh, how would Blizzard know if you're running a program that doesn't change anything about the SC2 client at all? You're using a Third Party program to give yourself an unfair advantage. SC2Gears is a 3rd party program as well. As far as I know, this program here doesn't inject anything to StarCraft 2. If anyone honestly thinks this is cheating, I feel sorry for you :p SC2gears doesn't influence your play while you are in a game. The issue is using something to help you while you are in a game against another player.
True, but SC2gears helps influence your game outside the game. I mean if people are making a big deal out of this little program, just get some sort of external timer on the internet so when you inject your larva, you can just set a hot key so it can beep every 30 seconds.
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I would consider this cheating. Very nice thing you did for the community but its not allowed  .
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On November 17 2011 13:33 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:27 U_G_L_Y wrote:On November 17 2011 13:19 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:18 U_G_L_Y wrote:On November 17 2011 13:14 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:55 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 12:49 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:47 Frozenhelfire wrote:On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote:
This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED. If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy. Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here. Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time. Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is. Is listening to music while laddering cheating? If the music tells you what to do in game at exactly the right times then yes. That comparison doesn't even make sense. It does tell me what to do. It reminds me to cycle through my hot keys, which I would not otherwise not remember to do. This is not opinion; I have a database of thousands of BW replays and have proven that my gaming mix makes me play faster. Rhapsody is a third party program that reminds me to do things that I am not doing. Is this cheating? I have a hard time believing this is true. But if it is, and it could be, it still isn't cheating. The other guy can listen to music too. Or maybe he plays faster without music. It depends where you draw the line. Either way we're just arguing semantics. If you think listening to music to improve your play is anywhere near as egregious as possibly never missing a larva inject due to a built in reminder that the other guy probably PROBABLY doesn't have, then there's no point in discussing where to draw the line between cheating and not cheating. We'll have to agree to disagree.
A built-in reminder the other guy probably doesn't have? Looks pretty built-in to me. The reminder in the OPs program is not built in. This is simply a different form of a reminder. The game has sounds and visual alerts.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QCxgN.jpg)
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On November 17 2011 13:24 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:23 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 17 2011 13:20 Mohdoo wrote:On November 17 2011 13:16 Nemireck wrote:On November 17 2011 12:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone plays a sport, so they aim to improve their physical abilities. They do so by lifting weights. Once they have lifted weights, they go to play their game. Similarly, someone will ladder or practice build orders against computers. However, there is no parallel to be made between something which remains in effect during the match. Lifting weights is intended to *prepare* you for an activity. An automated timer is intended to *assist* you during the game.
Ergo, it is a false analogy. Someone plays Starcraft 2, so they aim to improve their larva injects. They do so by setting a timer that beeps every 30 seconds. Once they have played a multitude of games against the computer or custom practice matches, they go play on ladder/in a tournament without the timer. Similarly, someone will lift weights to increase their physical strength. Both are methods that *prepare* you for an activity. Both potentially have long-term effects that will *assist* you during a game. What's your point? My argument was against the idea of using this against other people. Obviously there are no issues with practicing by yourself using this. As everyone knows, ladder doesnt mean anything and the software wouldnt help good players in tournaments which leads me to disagree with you. Ok, what about helping bad players in tournaments? What if there was a bronze tournament with a cash prize and the winner was using outside programs? My point is the skill of the player shouldn't matter. As for laddering not mattering, that's just your opinion.
Bronze tournaments dont matter
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 17 2011 13:37 Frozenhelfire wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 13:33 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:27 U_G_L_Y wrote:On November 17 2011 13:19 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 13:18 U_G_L_Y wrote:On November 17 2011 13:14 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:55 Ercster wrote:On November 17 2011 12:49 hitpoint wrote:On November 17 2011 12:47 Frozenhelfire wrote:On November 17 2011 12:29 Mohdoo wrote:
This is cheating.
Proof:
If you are using this, you are using it because you think it will help your play.
If you are using this in a mirror match, and the other guy is not, by the logic you have already used, you have an advantage.
QED. If an athlete lifts weights because it will improve their play in X sport, they are now cheating. What a great proof buddy. Other athletes can lift weights too. That's not the same as this. A more accurate example would be athletes use steroids to improve their play, while others can't/won't. Same principal applies here. Actually a more accurate analogy would be, two weight lifters, training for the same competition, want to lift weights every hour for 8 hours a day. One uses a stopwatch with a beeper to remind him that it has been an hour, and the other doesn't. They both have the same goal and same task to achieve it, just one decided to be reminded to do so every time. Not even close. You're not using it to practice if you're using this on ladder, you're using it to get an unfair advantage. Using this practicing against comps or partners isn't cheating, using it on ladder absolutely is. Is listening to music while laddering cheating? If the music tells you what to do in game at exactly the right times then yes. That comparison doesn't even make sense. It does tell me what to do. It reminds me to cycle through my hot keys, which I would not otherwise not remember to do. This is not opinion; I have a database of thousands of BW replays and have proven that my gaming mix makes me play faster. Rhapsody is a third party program that reminds me to do things that I am not doing. Is this cheating? I have a hard time believing this is true. But if it is, and it could be, it still isn't cheating. The other guy can listen to music too. Or maybe he plays faster without music. It depends where you draw the line. Either way we're just arguing semantics. If you think listening to music to improve your play is anywhere near as egregious as possibly never missing a larva inject due to a built in reminder that the other guy probably PROBABLY doesn't have, then there's no point in discussing where to draw the line between cheating and not cheating. We'll have to agree to disagree. A built-in reminder the other guy probably doesn't have? Looks pretty built-in to me. The reminder in the OPs program is not built in. This is simply a different form of a reminder. The game has sounds and visual alerts.
Yea I see it and I know it exists. It's built into the game and everyone has it. That's an entirely different matter, and from the sounds of it the in game one is not nearly as obvious.
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EPT
