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On November 08 2011 01:15 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 00:47 SeaSwift wrote:
...Whereas for lower league players, metagame counts for nothing and "true", hypothetical balance means nothing? Balance means nothing for lower leagues: if you get better, the balance issues you are experiencing become nothing and different ones emerge. Blizzard should clearly try to balance for the highest level of balance. What it means is pros know more about the races they don't play than people in lower leagues. So in lower leagues things like blind aggression are usually more rewarding than playing defensive or reactive. Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 00:47 SeaSwift wrote:On November 08 2011 00:29 Holophonist wrote:
For instance, what if protoss players are doing poorly because playing protoss was easy as shit before people learned how to stop a lot of their gay stuff? Then they would previously have had a higher than 50% winrate and it would be slowly averaging to 50%, dumbass. The only reason for it going lower than 50% would be that other races' players are somehow "better" on average - which there is no evidence AT ALL for, so stop talking bollocks. Also, nice "subtle" homophobia here. LOL What? Why would it slowly be averaging to 50? How can you expect people to practice basic mechanics in a haphazard game if they usually win on 2 or 3 bases with their first push, or at least do enough dmg to where they have a huge lead? That's my entire point is that with all-ins and timing attacks in general, you learn less overall about the game because you win or loss right there. So when you have a race that THRIVES on 2 base timing attacks, how could you expect them to NOT fall behind in overall skill? And protoss and terran have a lot more all-ins/timing attacks than zerg does. get it? Also, I think you noticing a commonly used word like gay or fag or whatever is much more unusual than me using it. But w/e nice argument, you really smart. You really smart man  Show nested quote + you On November 08 2011 00:29 Holophonist wrote:
Top players never had to innovate or think outside the box if every game could be won with either 4gate, 6gate or stargate play. This is true for terran as well except they're still the best because even if you figure out what they're doing, it's still hard to stop most of their junk. Baseless assertion, bullshit, yaddayaddayadda. None of this is supported by evidence, it's just some words you managed to spew while looking at statistics you clearly don't understand or else are heavily biased against. On November 08 2011 00:29 Holophonist wrote:
The bottom line is even if zerg starts to win, it's only because we've been forced to explore every single aspect of every different tech given to us. Zerg has had an over 50% winrate in PvZ since April. I'm sure that counts as "starts to win" to you. And what evidence have you shown there for Zerg having to explore every aspect while other races haven't? That's right, nada. Zilch. I find it absolutely hilarious that later on in your post you talk about me not using logic. Admittedly that's ALL I'm using, smart guy. I don't have statistics because what I'm talking about can't be quantified. That doesn't mean it's not true. In fact the idea that it can't be quantified is probably why nobody talks about it. Because there are too many people like you that just plug your ears and say things like YOU CAN'T PROVE THAT! WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE?!?! Like are you serious? Are you really going to argue that a) protoss is the king of timing attacks b) if you win most of your games (or more than other races) by using timing attacks or all-ins, then you're simply NOT GOING TO PRACTICE OTHER THINGS ABOUT THE GAME because you're too busy learning your timing attack. So once that particular attack gets figured out, you're done for. Look at MC, people figured him out and now he's losing. Oh, that's right... protoss is underpowered now.... got it. That's why he's losing. I'm so silly sometimes. Show nested quote + you On November 08 2011 00:29 Holophonist wrote:
Seriously, what unit/strat hasn't zerg tried? You really want to ask that? OK, how about mass Queen/Baneling vs Protoss with Ultra drops for harassment? See how little your question proves? No but every individual aspect of that has been and is tried all the time. We don't have entire units that go completely unused. Show nested quote + you On November 08 2011 00:29 Holophonist wrote:
Whereas you really don't see a lot of different stuff from protoss becuase you simply... don't need to. On the contrary, Protoss were using their full techtree before most Zergs knew what Infestors were. HTs were regularly seen in Beta and just after release, and the "deathball" came into play months ago. Zergs only discovered their Infestor/BL combo a couple of months ago - in what way do you not see "different stuff" from Protoss. Again, talking out of your biased, ignorant ass. No, it was before infestors were usuable, not before we knew what they were. Don't worry, now that they're not again, protoss players can go back to the cruncher style... and they are. Show nested quote + you On November 08 2011 00:29 Holophonist wrote:
Well maybe now you do. maybe now you have to get creative and get a mothership or even carriers! Because Mothership/Carriers hasn't already been extensively tried in tourney play (Kiwi vs Stephano, MLG, HongUn's MLG PvZ, White-Ra's PvZ on Shakuras for months). [/sarcasm] LOL it has and it works quite often! At the very least those aspects of their play are almost always cost effective, even if they end up losing the game. And what if those things were used by everybody to the point where there were stream lined builds for everybody to copy? Show nested quote +you On November 08 2011 00:29 Holophonist wrote:
or get really sick with your warp prism multitasking.
Yeah, Warp Prism harass is becoming more popular, but it is not purely because Protoss players finally found the extra fingers needed to micro it. There was a buff which made Warp Prism harassment more viable, and this encourages pro use. See this is a PERFECT example of why I'm right. Even now with the warp prism buff, the warp prism often gets the job done without even being hit!! You think they needed a buff, but in reality they can win a shit ton of games vs zerg (at least) without ever even being under fire. This is a prime example of what I mean when I say people don't experiment.
Did you really just say carriers "work quite often"? Blizzard themselves have admitted some units aren't for competitive play. (carriers and motherships) It's so funny when people suggest Protoss to make carriers as if that is going to help the race at all. It really highlights how clueless you are. You're also wrong about how Protoss "never had to innovate" and you basically cite MC as an example of this, which is ironic considering he is arguably the most innovative player so far. I think iamke said it well so let me quote his post.
"Protoss has been innovating the most of any race. Look how the PvT macro game has evolved from fast colossus builds to forges and gateways, then to templar builds, then to chargelot archon, and recently to double forge builds. Meanwhile Terrans have been using the same TvP strategy since release and it's still viable: 1 rax FE into 3 rax, tech to reactor medivacs and +1, add 4th and 5th barracks while taking a third, armory and 2nd ebay, tech ghosts and add more barracks on 3 bases. Occasionally they get ghosts before medivacs. MC literally does a new opening in every PvZ played in a Korean tournament while Zergs are doing the same old fast 3rd base into mass roach 1a"
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I was referring to motherships, obviously. And I don't know anything about PvT cause I don't play either. And I was using MC as an example of a protoss who used to be awesome and now he's not.
More wates of time from another one of the wonderful minds lurking around the TL boards. You make me hate life.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On November 08 2011 01:54 Holophonist wrote:
I was referring to motherships, obviously. And I don't know anything about PvT cause I don't play either. And I was using MC as an example of a protoss who used to be awesome and now he's not.
More wates of time from another one of the wonderful minds lurking around the TL boards. You make me hate life.
I was 30% sure you were a troll before this post.
Now I am 80% sure.
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Silly Techno. Don't you know? That data just shows how OP Terran REALLY is. So many people find Terran so easy that they pick the much harder Protoss and Zerg. Duh!
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On November 08 2011 00:29 Holophonist wrote:
Well maybe now you do. maybe now you have to get creative and get a mothership or even carriers!
carriers only deal 8interceptors*2attacks*5dmg/3attack speed= 23dps(w00t close to what a stimmed marauder does to a armored unit)against enemy units that dont have less armor upgrades then the P player has air attack upgrades(wich you wont vs good opponents), and that is what you get for 450 minerals 250 gas. and that is even assuming your not fighting units with base armor(wich will greatly make things worse).
carriers also build so slow that a zerg player can scout the finishing fleet beacon , build the long build time spire AND get the corruptors out before the carrier is finished, and pwn carriers with their 2 base armor.
carriers are just bad, PERIOD
a mothership while having some uses is also worth more then 2 expos teching costs not included(when you add tech costs your easily spending more then 3 expos to get your mothership out).
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On November 08 2011 01:41 Techno wrote:
Quite curious as there are more Protoss in korea GM than any other race. Quite curious indeed.
Really?
You have people like Taeja, Dream, MVP, Hawngsin, Puzzle, HuK, etc who aren't even in GM yet. Just look at the tail end of GM, you have a bunch of people who were never in GM before this season in there now.
Pretty obvious that most of the Pros aren't playing ladder because of GSL
carriers only deal 8interceptors*2attacks*5dmg/3attack speed= 23dps(w00t close to what a stimmed marauder does to a armored unit)against enemy units that dont have less armor upgrades then the P player has air attack upgrades(wich you wont vs good opponents), and that is what you get for 450 minerals 250 gas. and that is even assuming your not fighting units with base armor(wich will greatly make things worse).
carriers also build so slow that a zerg player can scout the finishing fleet beacon , build the long build time spire AND get the corruptors out before the carrier is finished, and pwn carriers with their 2 base armor.
carriers are just bad, PERIOD
DPS isn't really the strength of Carriers. If that looks bad to you then you have to realize Carrier DPS will be even lower during a fight due to interceptor death.
However a Carrier burst on the other hand is pretty darn strong. It is something like 80DPS (don't quote me on this, I can't quite remember, but it is high) over the first 3 seconds with Graviton Catapult--then it drops down to 23dps~
The only thing that has higher burst is Yamato Cannon, IIRC
Damage isn't the problem for Carriers, more so to do with things like Viking, research time, cost, Marines, etc
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On November 08 2011 02:10 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 01:41 Techno wrote:
Quite curious as there are more Protoss in korea GM than any other race. Quite curious indeed. Really? You have people like Taeja, Dream, Hawngsin, Puzzle, HuK, etc who aren't even in GM yet. Just look at the tail end of GM, you have a bunch of people who were never in GM before this season in there now. Pretty obvious that most of the Pros aren't playing ladder because of GSL
Excuses and confirmation bias. This thread is rampant with it. From both sides (Protoss UP vs shits balanced bra)
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On November 08 2011 01:57 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 01:25 Holophonist wrote:On November 08 2011 00:58 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 00:50 Holophonist wrote:On November 08 2011 00:38 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 00:29 Holophonist wrote:On November 07 2011 20:17 Sated wrote:On November 07 2011 17:39 Topdoller wrote:On November 07 2011 17:06 Gheed wrote:On November 07 2011 17:00 Topdoller wrote:
I wish the mod would lock or delete this thread, for 3 reasons
1. All it does is promote balance whine and QQ.
2. It has nothing to do with the current state of the game. Tournaments don't play on the current ladder map pool, so the results dont reflect 99.9% of total games played
3. HOTS will be here soon 1. So come up with something constructive to say instead of whining yourself. 2. That is not the purpose of the information being presented. It is clearly intended only as a representation of professional level play, not ladder matches. Whether any meaningful conclusions can be drawn for it is debatable. 3. Soom(tm) edit: lol I am not whining , the game is balanced Clearly not. Look at the graphs. The game should be balanced for the highest level of play, not scrubs like me. You're wrong. Almost everybody buying their product is a scrub. Also, at the highest levels of play, meta game counts for a lot more than how balanced the game is at the core. For instance, what if protoss players are doing poorly because playing protoss was easy as shit before people learned how to stop a lot of their gay stuff? Top players never had to innovate or think outside the box if every game could be won with either 4gate, 6gate or stargate play. This is true for terran as well except they're still the best because even if you figure out what they're doing, it's still hard to stop most of their junk. The bottom line is even if zerg starts to win, it's only because we've been forced to explore every single aspect of every different tech given to us. Seriously, what unit/strat hasn't zerg tried? Whereas you really don't see a lot of different stuff from protoss becuase you simply... don't need to. Well maybe now you do. maybe now you have to get creative and get a mothership or even carriers! or get really sick with your warp prism multitasking. Already answered this: For SC2 to be a legitimate ESPORT, the game has to be balanced at the tournament level. As for the stuff about Protoss players using "gay stuff", are you legitimately trying to say that the top Protoss players don't know what they're doing..? I don't think that's a good argument. EDIT: Also, get creative with "motherships or even carriers"? Those are units that are being removed from the game because Blizzard knows they suck. GG. =/ If you're balancing it for the pros, then it's not balanced. W/e though I'm not gonna try to explain/argue that. What I'm saying is races get into a rut because EVERYBODY DOES THE SAME DAMN THING. You can say that means the pros "don't know what they're doing" but I'm not letting you put words in my mouth. If a race has options that are easily exploitable, then the people who do those things are going to be further behind in other aspects of the game... period. That's what I'm saying. If protoss was able to herp derp a move their way to a lot of wins for the first 8 months of the game or w/e, then they're going to be behind in everything else. That's pretty much a fact. And please re-read what I said once or twice before you post something like "LOL YOU SAID IT'S A FACT THAT PROTOSS PLAYERS R BAD LOLOLOL" or whatever. You've just said Protoss players could A-move for months, implying that Protoss players are bad (even at the highest level). I'm not putting words into your mouth, I'm simply stating the obvious implication you are making with such a sentence. This assertion is silly for a number of reasons. First of all, you have no evidence for a statement like "[Protoss players] a move their way to a lot of wins". I could say something equally silly like, "All Zerg players do is build Roaches, Roaches are IMBA!", because that has just about as much evidence as your assertion does. Second of all, the so-called "gay" strategies you were referring to earlier (6gate, Stargate harassment etc.) require good use of forcefields/blink/graviton beam/void-ray micro to be viable, which means the Protoss player is doing more than A-moving to victory. Third of all, by saying that Protoss hasn't been explored, you're choosing to ignore a lot of top-level play without any good reasons. Protoss have explored their options and they have been found to be lacking, which is why Blizzard are choosing to remove units like the Mothership and the Carrier. EDIT: Look at my first point again. The fact that "macro-stomping" works at lower-levels shows that lower-level players losing to A-move are only doing so because their macro isn't good enough and they need to work on it... which is exactly why balancing for low-level players is a terrible idea: The number of mistakes they make means it is difficult to see what is imbalanced and what isn't. Besides, it's no fun watching tournaments when you know that Race X has an advantage (could be any race, I don't care which). SC2 will die as an ESPORT if the game doesn't become balanced - BW only survived as long as it did because it is very balanced at the top-level, even though it isn't at lower levels (or so I hear). I love arguing on TL. A whole bunch of semantics and word games without every approaching my core point. I use a lot of hyperbole, get over it. Protoss players have stronger timing attacks than zerg. That means protoss players have to practice everything else less. That means if certain strats stop working (get figured out, nerfed, etc) those players will be in relatively bad shape. All the while nobody knows what the current scene would look like if every protoss player played pure macro/reactive from the start I can make this kind of baseless argument, too. - Terran has stronger timing-attacks than Protoss. - That means that Terran players have to practice everything else less. - That means that if certain strats stop working (get figured out, nerfed, etc.) those players will be in relatively bad shape in PvT. - However, Terrans keep winning >50% in PvT, even when their timing-attacks are figured out (i.e. 111). - Therefore, the second point must be incorrect, as Terrans have obviously practiced stuff other than timing-attacks! - Therefore, Protoss players are probably practicing more than just timing-attacks too!! - Therefore, either Protoss are just terrible at PvZ or Protoss is underpowered in PvZ!!! - Conclusion: Protoss is underpowered because top-level players clearly aren't terrible!!!! Now, I don't believe what I have written above because it's obviously incredibly silly, but it's funny how easy it is to make an argument when you start from a flawed hypothesis based on absolutely no data whatsoever (i.e. Terran has more timings than Protoss).
guide to terran:
TvP : 1/1/1 all day errday
TvZ: marine/tank/thor like a boss
TvT: why care about this when you already auto win the two other matchups?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 08 2011 02:13 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 02:10 Dommk wrote:On November 08 2011 01:41 Techno wrote:
Quite curious as there are more Protoss in korea GM than any other race. Quite curious indeed. Really? You have people like Taeja, Dream, Hawngsin, Puzzle, HuK, etc who aren't even in GM yet. Just look at the tail end of GM, you have a bunch of people who were never in GM before this season in there now. Pretty obvious that most of the Pros aren't playing ladder because of GSL Excuses and confirmation bias. This thread is rampant with it. From both sides (Protoss UP vs shits balanced bra)
Well clearly. But are you saying what I've said is due to confirmation bias 0o? I guess to a certain extent yes, but before this Koren Masters was what? 40% Terran in the top 200 (before GM was open). And the current Masters top 100, 200, 300, etc is still 41% Terran for all~ + as I mentioned in the previous post that not a single person has yet to be kicked from Korean GM.
Though it doesn't confirm anything for sure, I'll take you on a bet if you actually think the GM ladder will still look like this 1-2months from now.
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Despite the small sample size this is the best we have to look at in the community. Thank you so much OP and all of your collaborators for the great work on these graphs each month. They are very enlightening.
So from what I can tell, Protoss is still hurting (probably less than this graph shows as the sample size is a bit small but still hurting nonetheless). Hopefully with the advent of 1.4.2 we will see if the numbers will become more favorable but in all honesty the race as a whole just feels a bit weak. Time will tell what the Protoss race is capable of but I hope we get some very serious help here in the near future if this current trend continues. Possibly a buff to Gateway units (at least make Stalkers scale properly!)
Gl and Hf!
(PS Diamond Protoss so I am scrubly ^_^; )
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On November 08 2011 01:57 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 01:25 Holophonist wrote:On November 08 2011 00:58 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 00:50 Holophonist wrote:On November 08 2011 00:38 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 00:29 Holophonist wrote:On November 07 2011 20:17 Sated wrote:On November 07 2011 17:39 Topdoller wrote:On November 07 2011 17:06 Gheed wrote:On November 07 2011 17:00 Topdoller wrote:
I wish the mod would lock or delete this thread, for 3 reasons
1. All it does is promote balance whine and QQ.
2. It has nothing to do with the current state of the game. Tournaments don't play on the current ladder map pool, so the results dont reflect 99.9% of total games played
3. HOTS will be here soon 1. So come up with something constructive to say instead of whining yourself. 2. That is not the purpose of the information being presented. It is clearly intended only as a representation of professional level play, not ladder matches. Whether any meaningful conclusions can be drawn for it is debatable. 3. Soom(tm) edit: lol I am not whining , the game is balanced Clearly not. Look at the graphs. The game should be balanced for the highest level of play, not scrubs like me. You're wrong. Almost everybody buying their product is a scrub. Also, at the highest levels of play, meta game counts for a lot more than how balanced the game is at the core. For instance, what if protoss players are doing poorly because playing protoss was easy as shit before people learned how to stop a lot of their gay stuff? Top players never had to innovate or think outside the box if every game could be won with either 4gate, 6gate or stargate play. This is true for terran as well except they're still the best because even if you figure out what they're doing, it's still hard to stop most of their junk. The bottom line is even if zerg starts to win, it's only because we've been forced to explore every single aspect of every different tech given to us. Seriously, what unit/strat hasn't zerg tried? Whereas you really don't see a lot of different stuff from protoss becuase you simply... don't need to. Well maybe now you do. maybe now you have to get creative and get a mothership or even carriers! or get really sick with your warp prism multitasking. Already answered this: For SC2 to be a legitimate ESPORT, the game has to be balanced at the tournament level. As for the stuff about Protoss players using "gay stuff", are you legitimately trying to say that the top Protoss players don't know what they're doing..? I don't think that's a good argument. EDIT: Also, get creative with "motherships or even carriers"? Those are units that are being removed from the game because Blizzard knows they suck. GG. =/ If you're balancing it for the pros, then it's not balanced. W/e though I'm not gonna try to explain/argue that. What I'm saying is races get into a rut because EVERYBODY DOES THE SAME DAMN THING. You can say that means the pros "don't know what they're doing" but I'm not letting you put words in my mouth. If a race has options that are easily exploitable, then the people who do those things are going to be further behind in other aspects of the game... period. That's what I'm saying. If protoss was able to herp derp a move their way to a lot of wins for the first 8 months of the game or w/e, then they're going to be behind in everything else. That's pretty much a fact. And please re-read what I said once or twice before you post something like "LOL YOU SAID IT'S A FACT THAT PROTOSS PLAYERS R BAD LOLOLOL" or whatever. You've just said Protoss players could A-move for months, implying that Protoss players are bad (even at the highest level). I'm not putting words into your mouth, I'm simply stating the obvious implication you are making with such a sentence. This assertion is silly for a number of reasons. First of all, you have no evidence for a statement like "[Protoss players] a move their way to a lot of wins". I could say something equally silly like, "All Zerg players do is build Roaches, Roaches are IMBA!", because that has just about as much evidence as your assertion does. Second of all, the so-called "gay" strategies you were referring to earlier (6gate, Stargate harassment etc.) require good use of forcefields/blink/graviton beam/void-ray micro to be viable, which means the Protoss player is doing more than A-moving to victory. Third of all, by saying that Protoss hasn't been explored, you're choosing to ignore a lot of top-level play without any good reasons. Protoss have explored their options and they have been found to be lacking, which is why Blizzard are choosing to remove units like the Mothership and the Carrier. EDIT: Look at my first point again. The fact that "macro-stomping" works at lower-levels shows that lower-level players losing to A-move are only doing so because their macro isn't good enough and they need to work on it... which is exactly why balancing for low-level players is a terrible idea: The number of mistakes they make means it is difficult to see what is imbalanced and what isn't. Besides, it's no fun watching tournaments when you know that Race X has an advantage (could be any race, I don't care which). SC2 will die as an ESPORT if the game doesn't become balanced - BW only survived as long as it did because it is very balanced at the top-level, even though it isn't at lower levels (or so I hear). I love arguing on TL. A whole bunch of semantics and word games without every approaching my core point. I use a lot of hyperbole, get over it. Protoss players have stronger timing attacks than zerg. That means protoss players have to practice everything else less. That means if certain strats stop working (get figured out, nerfed, etc) those players will be in relatively bad shape. All the while nobody knows what the current scene would look like if every protoss player played pure macro/reactive from the start I can make this kind of baseless argument, too. - Terran has stronger timing-attacks than Protoss. - That means that Terran players have to practice everything else less. - That means that if certain strats stop working (get figured out, nerfed, etc.) those players will be in relatively bad shape in PvT. - However, Terrans keep winning >50% in PvT, even when their timing-attacks are figured out (i.e. 111). - Therefore, the second point must be incorrect, as Terrans have obviously practiced stuff other than timing-attacks! - Therefore, Protoss players are probably practicing more than just timing-attacks too!! - Therefore, either Protoss are just terrible at PvZ or Protoss is underpowered in PvZ!!! - Conclusion: Protoss is underpowered because top-level players clearly aren't terrible!!!! Now, I don't believe what I have written above because it's obviously incredibly silly, but it's funny how easy it is to make an argument when you start from a flawed hypothesis based on absolutely no data whatsoever (i.e. Terran has more timings than Protoss).
Do I really have to hand feed you logic lessons? Protoss and Terran are different races. A big piece of evidence in my argument is that protoss was winning and now protoss isn't winning. Terran is still winning. A number of things could be the cause of this. Maybe their strats don't rely as much on keeping it a secret... maybe they rely MORE on keeping it a secret! Maybe they have more options. I hate how every argument I get in on these forums turns into me holding people's hands through what SHOULD be basic levels of common sense/logic.
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On November 08 2011 03:07 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 02:44 Holophonist wrote:On November 08 2011 01:57 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 01:25 Holophonist wrote:On November 08 2011 00:58 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 00:50 Holophonist wrote:On November 08 2011 00:38 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 00:29 Holophonist wrote:On November 07 2011 20:17 Sated wrote:On November 07 2011 17:39 Topdoller wrote:
[quote]
I am not whining , the game is balanced Clearly not. Look at the graphs. The game should be balanced for the highest level of play, not scrubs like me. You're wrong. Almost everybody buying their product is a scrub. Also, at the highest levels of play, meta game counts for a lot more than how balanced the game is at the core. For instance, what if protoss players are doing poorly because playing protoss was easy as shit before people learned how to stop a lot of their gay stuff? Top players never had to innovate or think outside the box if every game could be won with either 4gate, 6gate or stargate play. This is true for terran as well except they're still the best because even if you figure out what they're doing, it's still hard to stop most of their junk. The bottom line is even if zerg starts to win, it's only because we've been forced to explore every single aspect of every different tech given to us. Seriously, what unit/strat hasn't zerg tried? Whereas you really don't see a lot of different stuff from protoss becuase you simply... don't need to. Well maybe now you do. maybe now you have to get creative and get a mothership or even carriers! or get really sick with your warp prism multitasking. Already answered this: For SC2 to be a legitimate ESPORT, the game has to be balanced at the tournament level. As for the stuff about Protoss players using "gay stuff", are you legitimately trying to say that the top Protoss players don't know what they're doing..? I don't think that's a good argument. EDIT: Also, get creative with "motherships or even carriers"? Those are units that are being removed from the game because Blizzard knows they suck. GG. =/ If you're balancing it for the pros, then it's not balanced. W/e though I'm not gonna try to explain/argue that. What I'm saying is races get into a rut because EVERYBODY DOES THE SAME DAMN THING. You can say that means the pros "don't know what they're doing" but I'm not letting you put words in my mouth. If a race has options that are easily exploitable, then the people who do those things are going to be further behind in other aspects of the game... period. That's what I'm saying. If protoss was able to herp derp a move their way to a lot of wins for the first 8 months of the game or w/e, then they're going to be behind in everything else. That's pretty much a fact. And please re-read what I said once or twice before you post something like "LOL YOU SAID IT'S A FACT THAT PROTOSS PLAYERS R BAD LOLOLOL" or whatever. You've just said Protoss players could A-move for months, implying that Protoss players are bad (even at the highest level). I'm not putting words into your mouth, I'm simply stating the obvious implication you are making with such a sentence. This assertion is silly for a number of reasons. First of all, you have no evidence for a statement like "[Protoss players] a move their way to a lot of wins". I could say something equally silly like, "All Zerg players do is build Roaches, Roaches are IMBA!", because that has just about as much evidence as your assertion does. Second of all, the so-called "gay" strategies you were referring to earlier (6gate, Stargate harassment etc.) require good use of forcefields/blink/graviton beam/void-ray micro to be viable, which means the Protoss player is doing more than A-moving to victory. Third of all, by saying that Protoss hasn't been explored, you're choosing to ignore a lot of top-level play without any good reasons. Protoss have explored their options and they have been found to be lacking, which is why Blizzard are choosing to remove units like the Mothership and the Carrier. EDIT: Look at my first point again. The fact that "macro-stomping" works at lower-levels shows that lower-level players losing to A-move are only doing so because their macro isn't good enough and they need to work on it... which is exactly why balancing for low-level players is a terrible idea: The number of mistakes they make means it is difficult to see what is imbalanced and what isn't. Besides, it's no fun watching tournaments when you know that Race X has an advantage (could be any race, I don't care which). SC2 will die as an ESPORT if the game doesn't become balanced - BW only survived as long as it did because it is very balanced at the top-level, even though it isn't at lower levels (or so I hear). I love arguing on TL. A whole bunch of semantics and word games without every approaching my core point. I use a lot of hyperbole, get over it. Protoss players have stronger timing attacks than zerg. That means protoss players have to practice everything else less. That means if certain strats stop working (get figured out, nerfed, etc) those players will be in relatively bad shape. All the while nobody knows what the current scene would look like if every protoss player played pure macro/reactive from the start I can make this kind of baseless argument, too. - Terran has stronger timing-attacks than Protoss. - That means that Terran players have to practice everything else less. - That means that if certain strats stop working (get figured out, nerfed, etc.) those players will be in relatively bad shape in PvT. - However, Terrans keep winning >50% in PvT, even when their timing-attacks are figured out (i.e. 111). - Therefore, the second point must be incorrect, as Terrans have obviously practiced stuff other than timing-attacks! - Therefore, Protoss players are probably practicing more than just timing-attacks too!! - Therefore, either Protoss are just terrible at PvZ or Protoss is underpowered in PvZ!!! - Conclusion: Protoss is underpowered because top-level players clearly aren't terrible!!!! Now, I don't believe what I have written above because it's obviously incredibly silly, but it's funny how easy it is to make an argument when you start from a flawed hypothesis based on absolutely no data whatsoever (i.e. Terran has more timings than Protoss). Do I really have to hand feed you logic lessons? Protoss and Terran are different races. A big piece of evidence in my argument is that protoss was winning and now protoss isn't winning. Terran is still winning. A number of things could be the cause of this. Maybe their strats don't rely as much on keeping it a secret... maybe they rely MORE on keeping it a secret! Maybe they have more options. I hate how every argument I get in on these forums turns into me holding people's hands through what SHOULD be basic levels of common sense/logic. That's not a logic lesson. To be honest, you're just re-inforcing the idea that you're a troll.
Typical response from somebody who doesn't know how to think. You can't say the same thing about Terran. It's possible that terran is just a more powerful race than protoss so even when zergs figure out how to stop a bunker rush (or it gets nerfed), they can find a different, arguably better opening to use (hellion expand). Understand?
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On November 08 2011 02:13 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 02:10 Dommk wrote:On November 08 2011 01:41 Techno wrote:
Quite curious as there are more Protoss in korea GM than any other race. Quite curious indeed. Really? You have people like Taeja, Dream, Hawngsin, Puzzle, HuK, etc who aren't even in GM yet. Just look at the tail end of GM, you have a bunch of people who were never in GM before this season in there now. Pretty obvious that most of the Pros aren't playing ladder because of GSL Excuses and confirmation bias. This thread is rampant with it. From both sides (Protoss UP vs shits balanced bra)
The whole who is in grandmasters argument isn't very good. GM is based on ladder points and you get those by playing more games. If you watch any pro's stream in Korea, NA or EU, they get cheesed ALL the time and lose to it. Does that mean that the player in GM who cheesed them is better than them and should be a pro? Didn't think anyone is going to make that argument. Should that player be in GM? And how should that factor into balance?
It shouldn't, beause the ladder rank only reflects someones ability to play on the ladder.
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On November 08 2011 03:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 02:13 Techno wrote:On November 08 2011 02:10 Dommk wrote:On November 08 2011 01:41 Techno wrote:
Quite curious as there are more Protoss in korea GM than any other race. Quite curious indeed. Really? You have people like Taeja, Dream, Hawngsin, Puzzle, HuK, etc who aren't even in GM yet. Just look at the tail end of GM, you have a bunch of people who were never in GM before this season in there now. Pretty obvious that most of the Pros aren't playing ladder because of GSL Excuses and confirmation bias. This thread is rampant with it. From both sides (Protoss UP vs shits balanced bra) The whole who is in grandmasters argument isn't very good. GM is based on ladder points and you get those by playing more games. If you watch any pro's stream in Korea, NA or EU, they get cheesed ALL the time and lose to it. Does that mean that the player in GM who cheesed them is better than them and should be a pro? Didn't think anyone is going to make that argument. Should that player be in GM? And how should that factor into balance? It shouldn't, beause the ladder rank only reflects someones ability to play on the ladder.
Then why aren't you gm? Just play on the ladder and cheese.
It's clearly that terran is doing worse then z and p on ladder. When I look at the tournament page I see very few blue, and meanwhile alot of RED. Watch this: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues. If you look HONESTLY then you will see p and t winning equally tournaments. Zerg on the other hand..
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On November 08 2011 01:41 Techno wrote:
Quite curious as there are more Protoss in korea GM than any other race. Quite curious indeed.
Wait I thought there were more Terrans in korea and that's why they're dominating the GSL 
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On November 08 2011 04:02 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 01:41 Techno wrote:
Quite curious as there are more Protoss in korea GM than any other race. Quite curious indeed. Wait I thought there were more Terrans in korea and that's why they're dominating the GSL
I will edit your post:
Wait I thought there were more Terrans in korea and that's why they're dominating the GSL code S :P
Code S is full of terrans because of the FORMAT. Take a look at code A..
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On November 08 2011 02:13 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 02:10 Dommk wrote:On November 08 2011 01:41 Techno wrote:
Quite curious as there are more Protoss in korea GM than any other race. Quite curious indeed. Really? You have people like Taeja, Dream, Hawngsin, Puzzle, HuK, etc who aren't even in GM yet. Just look at the tail end of GM, you have a bunch of people who were never in GM before this season in there now. Pretty obvious that most of the Pros aren't playing ladder because of GSL Excuses and confirmation bias. This thread is rampant with it. From both sides (Protoss UP vs shits balanced bra)
Techno: Nobody who actually understands the game and follows these balance threads bothers to give constructive feedback to you anymore. Whenever you're caught suggesting idiotic strategies or screaming about how easy Protoss is, you just ignore the poster who called attention to it and keep chugging along.
Stop acting so immature, hit the find match button, and be quiet.
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EPT
