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On November 10 2011 07:51 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 07:48 AndAgain wrote:
EU Go4SC2 Cup # 137 isn't the highest level of play. Exactly, any league where Protoss wins stuff isn't the highest league. It goes against the narrative that Protoss needs buffs and Terran needs nerfs.
funny thing is how couple of months before all those small tournaments were no.1 thing to mention when people like sjow and other terrans dominated all of them.
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We're looking at october, the time when we had like 20 terrans in code S. This isn't surprising to me at all. I can't wait to see the november win rates, they should be pretty even. The only remarkable thing is that in october zergs did much better against Terran which is relieving for me considering that nothing has really changed ZvT in patches. I'm only relieved because zerg didn't need a patch to increase their win rate against terran, shows that with enough skill we can win.
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On November 10 2011 07:43 pPingu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 06:59 Holophonist wrote:
I was talking more about the mobility of each. you don't think blink stalkers and HT are more mobile than marine thor? Not really a question of mobility, a thor can defend alone a base with some turrets beofre the number of mutas becomes too big, and you can very easily split marines in small groups because they have a too high dps to take the risk to kill them if you don't have enough mutas, and even if the zerg kills them, it gies the time to the terran reinforcements to come defend. You could think protoss can do the same, but terrans don't give a shit if they lose marines, they can do a lot of them in a very short time for not a lot of money. Stalkers are far more expensive and you can't lose them and if you lose to much of them mutas can kill your entire army. Storms can be "easy" to doge if you have a good muta control, because when you see the ht moving to storm, you have time to retreat most of your mutas and kill it with 2 mutas.
Yeah thors are definitely good at defending from mutas, especially in conjunction with turrets for a couple reasons
-The thor is only good if there are turrets because it stops you from sniping turrets (cause you'd clump up)
-You can't really go in to magic box the thor cause you'll take turret fire the whole time (if the thor is positioned well).
But these concepts carry over to HT and cannons. Sure they can go in and snipe a HT, but they're going to take cannon fire the whole time unless they snipe the cannons, in which case it would be a perfect time to storm them. You could say that it's easier and faster to focus down a HT than a thor, so you take less cannon fire while doing it. True, but 1 thor equals a couple HT (almost) and HT can be warped in. Not to mention that stalkers can get there to defend the HT faster than marines can.. sometimes dramatically faster if it's a situation of like blinking up onto the high ground rather than going alll the way around.
I'm not sure if protoss has it easier/harder against mutas than terran, but going mutas vs terran is STANDARD. It would have to be significantly harder for protoss to defend from mutas in order for mutas to be standard versus terran and overpowered vs protoss. But, like I said, we won't know for a while because it's new.
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I'm sure it was said already but the protoss has far less games played. Not sure if that is because they get eliminated due to imbalance at the top level or that they are just coincidentally the unlucky race. Anyways, the new patch should definitely give protoss some real power by saving money on those upgrades.
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On November 10 2011 14:19 SpoR wrote:
I'm sure it was said already but the protoss has far less games played. Not sure if that is because they get eliminated due to imbalance at the top level or that they are just coincidentally the unlucky race. Anyways, the new patch should definitely give protoss some real power by saving money on those upgrades.
Don't think the least amount of games matter in this situation because this has been a trend for over like 6 months.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On November 10 2011 05:22 Killcani wrote:Mutas speed 3.75 -> 3.5 Remove ghost snipe There I fixed balance 
..... Remove ghost snipe and terran might as well type GG if zerg gets to hive tech.
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On November 10 2011 10:15 emc wrote:
We're looking at october, the time when we had like 20 terrans in code S. This isn't surprising to me at all. I can't wait to see the november win rates, they should be pretty even. The only remarkable thing is that in october zergs did much better against Terran which is relieving for me considering that nothing has really changed ZvT in patches. I'm only relieved because zerg didn't need a patch to increase their win rate against terran, shows that with enough skill we can win.
Patch 1.4.0 released September 20, 2011.
TERRAN
Barracks
Build time increased from 60 to 65.
Hellion
Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
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On November 10 2011 14:38 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 10:15 emc wrote:
We're looking at october, the time when we had like 20 terrans in code S. This isn't surprising to me at all. I can't wait to see the november win rates, they should be pretty even. The only remarkable thing is that in october zergs did much better against Terran which is relieving for me considering that nothing has really changed ZvT in patches. I'm only relieved because zerg didn't need a patch to increase their win rate against terran, shows that with enough skill we can win. Patch 1.4.0 released September 20, 2011. TERRAN Barracks Build time increased from 60 to 65. Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
EMP included for next month. :D
Hehe, I guess it won't change much for ZvT win rate.
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On November 10 2011 05:22 Killcani wrote:Mutas speed 3.75 -> 3.5 Remove ghost snipe There I fixed balance
You know, I think it might be fun if people used the Editor to create a version of the game that corresponds to their ideals of gameplay and ideas of balance. Everyone could showcase their own preferences leading to a variety of versions of StarCraft II. We could even have a competition where the community votes on their favourite settings on various criteria.
I know my version would kill off the Colossus and reinstate Khaydarin Amulet :D.
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On November 10 2011 15:35 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:22 Killcani wrote:Mutas speed 3.75 -> 3.5 Remove ghost snipe There I fixed balance You know, I think it might be fun if people used the Editor to create a version of the game that corresponds to their ideals of gameplay and ideas of balance. Everyone could showcase their own preferences leading to a variety of versions of StarCraft II. We could even have a competition where the community votes on their favourite settings on various criteria. I know my version would kill off the Colossus and reinstate Khaydarin Amulet :D.
Why bother, we already BW UMS in SC2.
You know it is just going to be add all BW units, remove all SC2 units at some point.
Just saying.
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On November 10 2011 14:29 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:22 Killcani wrote:Mutas speed 3.75 -> 3.5 Remove ghost snipe There I fixed balance ..... Remove ghost snipe and terran might as well type GG if zerg gets to hive tech.
Haha yes that is true but snipe as it is right now is a bit too strong and muta play is abit too strong as well so i think both should get minor nerfs
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On November 13 2011 12:09 Killcani wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 14:29 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 10 2011 05:22 Killcani wrote:Mutas speed 3.75 -> 3.5 Remove ghost snipe There I fixed balance ..... Remove ghost snipe and terran might as well type GG if zerg gets to hive tech. Haha yes that is true but snipe as it is right now is a bit too strong and muta play is abit too strong as well so i think both should get minor nerfs
Both of them are perfectly fine. Terrans need something to fight T3 zerg and zerg needs a solid harass/map control unit.
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On November 09 2011 22:21 Markwerf wrote:
GSL is terrible format to look at for winrates really.
Getting into GSL requires a large qualification thus there is already quite a bit of selection going on for getting into GSL. Up until recently the change in players has been very minimal as well. Thus the balance of players in GSL could be very lopsided because it was determined by games being played quite some time ago.
In other words there is a pretty huge selection bias when you use GSL games for winrates. The worst race from months ago is underrepresented because it could be so hard to get in months ago. That means the players that did get in are likely to be more skilled then the players from other races that are in and this influences the validity of the winrates.
Anyway the stuff is still great overall, it's good to see a fairly reliable source which is at least quite complete. That stops people from referring too much to anecdotal evidence which happens WAY too much on TL (and basically any non-scientific community).
Moreover, because code S tournament ro32 use the Dual Tournament format, you only need to win 2 games to get to ro16. There's no tiebreak, no 2-1 2-1 2-1 situation, and sometimes you have to play the same opponent twice.
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dang pvt korea is painful.
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I don't think there is enough data to draw any good conclusions from monthly winrates (quarterly would be better in my opinion).
I did a small overview of winrates per player in Korea (it seemed a better way to look at it except you don't have enough data to do monthly overviews). The main thing I realised was that there were not enough games to read anything particularly good out from there about the current state.
What I did find though, was that winrates against Terran are lower on average (I think it's been generally accepted that terrans have been the strongest race so far over the game's existance) and the Zerg and Protoss are pretty much the same. It is somewhat interesting that almost all the Protoss players I looked at had the favored race of Protoss (I looked at about 40 top players according to their ELO rating) which would actually artificially lower their winrates against other races due to the single elimination tournament format (I don't know how much though).
Another thing I found was that average winning percentages were quite a bit higher for SC2 compared to BW, which would indicate that SC2 wins are less luck based than Broodwar wins. But this is probably mostly due to the greater number of games played by the BW players (also my player selection probably was far from perfect).
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A note on the Korean winrates as well. The number of matches in the september graph for PvT was 1041 and in the october graph 1048 (the difference is very small that is there probably isn't much data on october). In addition the september winrates are different in the september graph and in the october graph (pPingu maybe you can explain how you get your data?).
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On November 08 2011 07:26 Blade Fox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:50 Firesilver wrote:On November 07 2011 08:48 Blade Fox wrote:
It's obvious.
Patch 1.3
High Templar
Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed.
Thats when protoss started losing every matchup. No, it really wasn't, that needed to be removed because of how strong it was, it's stupid to blame the recent down slope of P win % on that alone. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2514162Read those patch notes. Compare to the bar graph. Look at the protoss winrate line slump PERFECTLY at the exact same time this patch came out. Which is march onwards. The protoss race as others have said has little to no options with their units when you compare to the other races. If protoss aren't outnumbering the other race or laying absolutely perfect forcefields if they manage to dodge an EMP or a fungal they lose. Terrans units are all ranged and do huge damage, easily micro'd and their siege units like Vikings and Siege Tanks have no real counter in the protoss army OTHER THAN STORM. Why do you think so many protoss do risky fast expand builds these days? They have to get ahead early and out macro their opponent if they want any chance of winning. There's no effective harass unit that's not easily countered by the other races to get ahead so the only way is to be very risky with your builds. Tell me do you think Immortals counter siege tanks? In a bizarro world of tanks vs immortals and nothing else yes but that will never happen. The counter is actually splash damage on the terran bio ball then taking out their siege units afterward. I'm amazed that people have the nerve to say khydarin amulet was broken when clearly if you looked at old infestors and ghosts to this day both have their +25 upgrade and top level players always get these upgrades. They pop out ready to do 1000+ damage to a protoss army with EMP and you call that balance? Templar are balanced with being the most squishy of casters on top of the most slowly moving. It would be amusing if they took away EMP from ghosts as a skill then had to be researched and then on top of that removed mobius reactor. Then did the same with fungal to infestors. Believe me both races win rate would drop after that change. Continue living in a bubble where everyone thinks protoss players are bad and not innovative when it's the absolutely bottom of the barrel race that has had multiple abilities removed from it that made it viable into the puddle of mud that gets stomped these days.
If you read my post, I said that you cannot blame the downslope of Protoss winrates on KA alone.
And it's funny that you posted all of this and didn't even read the one line related I put in the first place.
You mention Ghosts, yes, they get an energy upgrade, but if you actually read the threads when this change first came out, you would see the mathematics behind each of these units and basically how you can't spawn 5 ghosts instantly to the battle and EMP and can't instantly spawn 10 infestors to the middle of a battle and use fungal growth, so removing KA allowed the same time for a ghost/infestor to spawn to the battle as a HT to charge up 25 energy to storm anywhere, you should read up about this before posting and telling people - that play protoss mind you - that they shouldn't have the nerve to even bring it up. Your post basically consists of 90% irrelevance information to what I posted and 10% uninformed babble attacking me for discussing.
And thanks for assuming everything about my opinions on the entire matter over a single post that consisted of two lines - that's awesome but totally incorrect, but infact I think Protoss does have a lot of flaws and that there are a number of fixes that need to be made.
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EPT
