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awwww poor protoss 
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It's interesting that pro tosses (yuk yuk yuk) are having so much difficulty recently, especially with some of the recent metagame shifts that have occurred (mainly the use of immortals way more). I feel like it may take a new "innovator" to redefine the metagame and bring toss back to prominence, kind of like MC first did with his void ray play way back when in GSL3.
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On November 08 2011 01:57 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 01:25 Holophonist wrote:On November 08 2011 00:58 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 00:50 Holophonist wrote:On November 08 2011 00:38 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 00:29 Holophonist wrote:On November 07 2011 20:17 Sated wrote:On November 07 2011 17:39 Topdoller wrote:On November 07 2011 17:06 Gheed wrote:On November 07 2011 17:00 Topdoller wrote:
I wish the mod would lock or delete this thread, for 3 reasons
1. All it does is promote balance whine and QQ.
2. It has nothing to do with the current state of the game. Tournaments don't play on the current ladder map pool, so the results dont reflect 99.9% of total games played
3. HOTS will be here soon 1. So come up with something constructive to say instead of whining yourself. 2. That is not the purpose of the information being presented. It is clearly intended only as a representation of professional level play, not ladder matches. Whether any meaningful conclusions can be drawn for it is debatable. 3. Soom(tm) edit: lol I am not whining , the game is balanced Clearly not. Look at the graphs. The game should be balanced for the highest level of play, not scrubs like me. You're wrong. Almost everybody buying their product is a scrub. Also, at the highest levels of play, meta game counts for a lot more than how balanced the game is at the core. For instance, what if protoss players are doing poorly because playing protoss was easy as shit before people learned how to stop a lot of their gay stuff? Top players never had to innovate or think outside the box if every game could be won with either 4gate, 6gate or stargate play. This is true for terran as well except they're still the best because even if you figure out what they're doing, it's still hard to stop most of their junk. The bottom line is even if zerg starts to win, it's only because we've been forced to explore every single aspect of every different tech given to us. Seriously, what unit/strat hasn't zerg tried? Whereas you really don't see a lot of different stuff from protoss becuase you simply... don't need to. Well maybe now you do. maybe now you have to get creative and get a mothership or even carriers! or get really sick with your warp prism multitasking. Already answered this: For SC2 to be a legitimate ESPORT, the game has to be balanced at the tournament level. As for the stuff about Protoss players using "gay stuff", are you legitimately trying to say that the top Protoss players don't know what they're doing..? I don't think that's a good argument. EDIT: Also, get creative with "motherships or even carriers"? Those are units that are being removed from the game because Blizzard knows they suck. GG. =/ If you're balancing it for the pros, then it's not balanced. W/e though I'm not gonna try to explain/argue that. What I'm saying is races get into a rut because EVERYBODY DOES THE SAME DAMN THING. You can say that means the pros "don't know what they're doing" but I'm not letting you put words in my mouth. If a race has options that are easily exploitable, then the people who do those things are going to be further behind in other aspects of the game... period. That's what I'm saying. If protoss was able to herp derp a move their way to a lot of wins for the first 8 months of the game or w/e, then they're going to be behind in everything else. That's pretty much a fact. And please re-read what I said once or twice before you post something like "LOL YOU SAID IT'S A FACT THAT PROTOSS PLAYERS R BAD LOLOLOL" or whatever. You've just said Protoss players could A-move for months, implying that Protoss players are bad (even at the highest level). I'm not putting words into your mouth, I'm simply stating the obvious implication you are making with such a sentence. This assertion is silly for a number of reasons. First of all, you have no evidence for a statement like "[Protoss players] a move their way to a lot of wins". I could say something equally silly like, "All Zerg players do is build Roaches, Roaches are IMBA!", because that has just about as much evidence as your assertion does. Second of all, the so-called "gay" strategies you were referring to earlier (6gate, Stargate harassment etc.) require good use of forcefields/blink/graviton beam/void-ray micro to be viable, which means the Protoss player is doing more than A-moving to victory. Third of all, by saying that Protoss hasn't been explored, you're choosing to ignore a lot of top-level play without any good reasons. Protoss have explored their options and they have been found to be lacking, which is why Blizzard are choosing to remove units like the Mothership and the Carrier. EDIT: Look at my first point again. The fact that "macro-stomping" works at lower-levels shows that lower-level players losing to A-move are only doing so because their macro isn't good enough and they need to work on it... which is exactly why balancing for low-level players is a terrible idea: The number of mistakes they make means it is difficult to see what is imbalanced and what isn't. Besides, it's no fun watching tournaments when you know that Race X has an advantage (could be any race, I don't care which). SC2 will die as an ESPORT if the game doesn't become balanced - BW only survived as long as it did because it is very balanced at the top-level, even though it isn't at lower levels (or so I hear). I love arguing on TL. A whole bunch of semantics and word games without every approaching my core point. I use a lot of hyperbole, get over it. Protoss players have stronger timing attacks than zerg. That means protoss players have to practice everything else less. That means if certain strats stop working (get figured out, nerfed, etc) those players will be in relatively bad shape. All the while nobody knows what the current scene would look like if every protoss player played pure macro/reactive from the start I can make this kind of baseless argument, too. - Terran has stronger timing-attacks than Protoss. - That means that Terran players have to practice everything else less. - That means that if certain strats stop working (get figured out, nerfed, etc.) those players will be in relatively bad shape in PvT. - However, Terrans keep winning >50% in PvT, even when their timing-attacks are figured out (i.e. 111). - Therefore, the second point must be incorrect, as Terrans have obviously practiced stuff other than timing-attacks! - Therefore, Protoss players are probably practicing more than just timing-attacks too!! - Therefore, either Protoss are just terrible at PvZ or Protoss is underpowered in PvZ!!! - Conclusion: Protoss is underpowered because top-level players clearly aren't terrible!!!! Now, I don't believe what I have written above because it's obviously incredibly silly, but it's funny how easy it is to make an argument when you start from a flawed hypothesis based on absolutely no data whatsoever (i.e. Terran has more timings than Protoss). Quit looking at Code S for your problems....Protoss does well in every tournament other then Code S. I 'm so sick of seeing this balance crap when none of you even at that caliber of play. You don't know anything...you all agree with something huk says because he's so mad that he won MLG Orlando right? Also MC got 2nd. Protoss is a good race and if you don't think so...you're playing the wrong game, go play CoD scrubs
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On November 08 2011 04:11 hellohilo wrote:
It's interesting that pro tosses (yuk yuk yuk) are having so much difficulty recently, especially with some of the recent metagame shifts that have occurred (mainly the use of immortals way more). I feel like it may take a new "innovator" to redefine the metagame and bring toss back to prominence, kind of like MC first did with his void ray play way back when in GSL3.
Hello, please tell me why there having trouble "recently" I wanna know. This graph proves nothing at all. Look at tournaments "the only thing that matters" protoss players are winning and taking 2nd in almost every tournament. Please tell me what Terran does outside of Code S. Please???? I really wanna know why all of you think Terran is Imba...because you never been so wrong. Like the arguments on balance are literally a joke anymore.
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On November 08 2011 04:19 VPVash wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 04:11 hellohilo wrote:
It's interesting that pro tosses (yuk yuk yuk) are having so much difficulty recently, especially with some of the recent metagame shifts that have occurred (mainly the use of immortals way more). I feel like it may take a new "innovator" to redefine the metagame and bring toss back to prominence, kind of like MC first did with his void ray play way back when in GSL3. Hello, please tell me why there having trouble "recently" I wanna know. This graph proves nothing at all. Look at tournaments "the only thing that matters" protoss players are winning and taking 2nd in almost every tournament. Please tell me what Terran does outside of Code S. Please???? I really wanna know why all of you think Terran is Imba...because you never been so wrong. Like the arguments on balance are literally a joke anymore.
They don't have a reason why they think terran is imba. Toss and zerg are dominating on ladder (you know, the place where all these whiners play), and tourneys (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues) get dominated by zergs. People just love to think that their race is UP and that other races are OP. This way they win because of their awesomeness, and lose because of imbalance  .
The only place where we see terrans dominating is GSL CODE S, and that's the only argument they have. Don't expect some other argument because there is not a single one.
After this emp nerf tvp lategame will be even a bigger joke.
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44.8% keep at it guys we only need 2.3 more to beat the zerg all time low in jan at 42.6 !
But seriously i would have expected PvT to be more imba and ZvT also more terran favored so i guess it kind of oky :p
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On November 08 2011 04:15 VPVash wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 01:57 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 01:25 Holophonist wrote:On November 08 2011 00:58 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 00:50 Holophonist wrote:On November 08 2011 00:38 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 00:29 Holophonist wrote:On November 07 2011 20:17 Sated wrote:On November 07 2011 17:39 Topdoller wrote:On November 07 2011 17:06 Gheed wrote:
[quote]
1. So come up with something constructive to say instead of whining yourself.
2. That is not the purpose of the information being presented. It is clearly intended only as a representation of professional level play, not ladder matches. Whether any meaningful conclusions can be drawn for it is debatable.
3. Soom(tm)
edit: lol
I am not whining , the game is balanced Clearly not. Look at the graphs. The game should be balanced for the highest level of play, not scrubs like me. You're wrong. Almost everybody buying their product is a scrub. Also, at the highest levels of play, meta game counts for a lot more than how balanced the game is at the core. For instance, what if protoss players are doing poorly because playing protoss was easy as shit before people learned how to stop a lot of their gay stuff? Top players never had to innovate or think outside the box if every game could be won with either 4gate, 6gate or stargate play. This is true for terran as well except they're still the best because even if you figure out what they're doing, it's still hard to stop most of their junk. The bottom line is even if zerg starts to win, it's only because we've been forced to explore every single aspect of every different tech given to us. Seriously, what unit/strat hasn't zerg tried? Whereas you really don't see a lot of different stuff from protoss becuase you simply... don't need to. Well maybe now you do. maybe now you have to get creative and get a mothership or even carriers! or get really sick with your warp prism multitasking. Already answered this: For SC2 to be a legitimate ESPORT, the game has to be balanced at the tournament level. As for the stuff about Protoss players using "gay stuff", are you legitimately trying to say that the top Protoss players don't know what they're doing..? I don't think that's a good argument. EDIT: Also, get creative with "motherships or even carriers"? Those are units that are being removed from the game because Blizzard knows they suck. GG. =/ If you're balancing it for the pros, then it's not balanced. W/e though I'm not gonna try to explain/argue that. What I'm saying is races get into a rut because EVERYBODY DOES THE SAME DAMN THING. You can say that means the pros "don't know what they're doing" but I'm not letting you put words in my mouth. If a race has options that are easily exploitable, then the people who do those things are going to be further behind in other aspects of the game... period. That's what I'm saying. If protoss was able to herp derp a move their way to a lot of wins for the first 8 months of the game or w/e, then they're going to be behind in everything else. That's pretty much a fact. And please re-read what I said once or twice before you post something like "LOL YOU SAID IT'S A FACT THAT PROTOSS PLAYERS R BAD LOLOLOL" or whatever. You've just said Protoss players could A-move for months, implying that Protoss players are bad (even at the highest level). I'm not putting words into your mouth, I'm simply stating the obvious implication you are making with such a sentence. This assertion is silly for a number of reasons. First of all, you have no evidence for a statement like "[Protoss players] a move their way to a lot of wins". I could say something equally silly like, "All Zerg players do is build Roaches, Roaches are IMBA!", because that has just about as much evidence as your assertion does. Second of all, the so-called "gay" strategies you were referring to earlier (6gate, Stargate harassment etc.) require good use of forcefields/blink/graviton beam/void-ray micro to be viable, which means the Protoss player is doing more than A-moving to victory. Third of all, by saying that Protoss hasn't been explored, you're choosing to ignore a lot of top-level play without any good reasons. Protoss have explored their options and they have been found to be lacking, which is why Blizzard are choosing to remove units like the Mothership and the Carrier. EDIT: Look at my first point again. The fact that "macro-stomping" works at lower-levels shows that lower-level players losing to A-move are only doing so because their macro isn't good enough and they need to work on it... which is exactly why balancing for low-level players is a terrible idea: The number of mistakes they make means it is difficult to see what is imbalanced and what isn't. Besides, it's no fun watching tournaments when you know that Race X has an advantage (could be any race, I don't care which). SC2 will die as an ESPORT if the game doesn't become balanced - BW only survived as long as it did because it is very balanced at the top-level, even though it isn't at lower levels (or so I hear). I love arguing on TL. A whole bunch of semantics and word games without every approaching my core point. I use a lot of hyperbole, get over it. Protoss players have stronger timing attacks than zerg. That means protoss players have to practice everything else less. That means if certain strats stop working (get figured out, nerfed, etc) those players will be in relatively bad shape. All the while nobody knows what the current scene would look like if every protoss player played pure macro/reactive from the start I can make this kind of baseless argument, too. - Terran has stronger timing-attacks than Protoss. - That means that Terran players have to practice everything else less. - That means that if certain strats stop working (get figured out, nerfed, etc.) those players will be in relatively bad shape in PvT. - However, Terrans keep winning >50% in PvT, even when their timing-attacks are figured out (i.e. 111). - Therefore, the second point must be incorrect, as Terrans have obviously practiced stuff other than timing-attacks! - Therefore, Protoss players are probably practicing more than just timing-attacks too!! - Therefore, either Protoss are just terrible at PvZ or Protoss is underpowered in PvZ!!! - Conclusion: Protoss is underpowered because top-level players clearly aren't terrible!!!! Now, I don't believe what I have written above because it's obviously incredibly silly, but it's funny how easy it is to make an argument when you start from a flawed hypothesis based on absolutely no data whatsoever (i.e. Terran has more timings than Protoss). Quit looking at Code S for your problems....Protoss does well in every tournament other then Code S. I 'm so sick of seeing this balance crap when none of you even at that caliber of play. You don't know anything...you all agree with something huk says because he's so mad that he won MLG Orlando right? Also MC got 2nd. Protoss is a good race and if you don't think so...you're playing the wrong game, go play CoD scrubs
You do realize the statistics is not only from Code S but all tournaments and therefore you argument about Terran only doing good in Code S and nowhere else is invalid. You know, just saying.
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On November 08 2011 04:23 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 04:19 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 04:11 hellohilo wrote:
It's interesting that pro tosses (yuk yuk yuk) are having so much difficulty recently, especially with some of the recent metagame shifts that have occurred (mainly the use of immortals way more). I feel like it may take a new "innovator" to redefine the metagame and bring toss back to prominence, kind of like MC first did with his void ray play way back when in GSL3. Hello, please tell me why there having trouble "recently" I wanna know. This graph proves nothing at all. Look at tournaments "the only thing that matters" protoss players are winning and taking 2nd in almost every tournament. Please tell me what Terran does outside of Code S. Please???? I really wanna know why all of you think Terran is Imba...because you never been so wrong. Like the arguments on balance are literally a joke anymore. They don't have a reason why they think terran is imba. Toss and zerg are dominating on ladder (you know, the place where all these whiners play), and tourneys (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues) get dominated by zergs. People just love to think that their race is UP and that other races are OP. This way they win because of their awesomeness, and lose because of imbalance . The only place where we see terrans dominating is GSL CODE S, and that's the only argument they have. Don't expect some other argument because there is not a single one. After this emp nerf tvp lategame will be even a bigger joke.
Someone who is actually smart????!?!?!!?!?!? Is this real life?!?!??!??!
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On November 08 2011 04:33 Bratalix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 04:15 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 01:57 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 01:25 Holophonist wrote:On November 08 2011 00:58 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 00:50 Holophonist wrote:On November 08 2011 00:38 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 00:29 Holophonist wrote:On November 07 2011 20:17 Sated wrote:On November 07 2011 17:39 Topdoller wrote:
[quote]
I am not whining , the game is balanced Clearly not. Look at the graphs. The game should be balanced for the highest level of play, not scrubs like me. You're wrong. Almost everybody buying their product is a scrub. Also, at the highest levels of play, meta game counts for a lot more than how balanced the game is at the core. For instance, what if protoss players are doing poorly because playing protoss was easy as shit before people learned how to stop a lot of their gay stuff? Top players never had to innovate or think outside the box if every game could be won with either 4gate, 6gate or stargate play. This is true for terran as well except they're still the best because even if you figure out what they're doing, it's still hard to stop most of their junk. The bottom line is even if zerg starts to win, it's only because we've been forced to explore every single aspect of every different tech given to us. Seriously, what unit/strat hasn't zerg tried? Whereas you really don't see a lot of different stuff from protoss becuase you simply... don't need to. Well maybe now you do. maybe now you have to get creative and get a mothership or even carriers! or get really sick with your warp prism multitasking. Already answered this: For SC2 to be a legitimate ESPORT, the game has to be balanced at the tournament level. As for the stuff about Protoss players using "gay stuff", are you legitimately trying to say that the top Protoss players don't know what they're doing..? I don't think that's a good argument. EDIT: Also, get creative with "motherships or even carriers"? Those are units that are being removed from the game because Blizzard knows they suck. GG. =/ If you're balancing it for the pros, then it's not balanced. W/e though I'm not gonna try to explain/argue that. What I'm saying is races get into a rut because EVERYBODY DOES THE SAME DAMN THING. You can say that means the pros "don't know what they're doing" but I'm not letting you put words in my mouth. If a race has options that are easily exploitable, then the people who do those things are going to be further behind in other aspects of the game... period. That's what I'm saying. If protoss was able to herp derp a move their way to a lot of wins for the first 8 months of the game or w/e, then they're going to be behind in everything else. That's pretty much a fact. And please re-read what I said once or twice before you post something like "LOL YOU SAID IT'S A FACT THAT PROTOSS PLAYERS R BAD LOLOLOL" or whatever. You've just said Protoss players could A-move for months, implying that Protoss players are bad (even at the highest level). I'm not putting words into your mouth, I'm simply stating the obvious implication you are making with such a sentence. This assertion is silly for a number of reasons. First of all, you have no evidence for a statement like "[Protoss players] a move their way to a lot of wins". I could say something equally silly like, "All Zerg players do is build Roaches, Roaches are IMBA!", because that has just about as much evidence as your assertion does. Second of all, the so-called "gay" strategies you were referring to earlier (6gate, Stargate harassment etc.) require good use of forcefields/blink/graviton beam/void-ray micro to be viable, which means the Protoss player is doing more than A-moving to victory. Third of all, by saying that Protoss hasn't been explored, you're choosing to ignore a lot of top-level play without any good reasons. Protoss have explored their options and they have been found to be lacking, which is why Blizzard are choosing to remove units like the Mothership and the Carrier. EDIT: Look at my first point again. The fact that "macro-stomping" works at lower-levels shows that lower-level players losing to A-move are only doing so because their macro isn't good enough and they need to work on it... which is exactly why balancing for low-level players is a terrible idea: The number of mistakes they make means it is difficult to see what is imbalanced and what isn't. Besides, it's no fun watching tournaments when you know that Race X has an advantage (could be any race, I don't care which). SC2 will die as an ESPORT if the game doesn't become balanced - BW only survived as long as it did because it is very balanced at the top-level, even though it isn't at lower levels (or so I hear). I love arguing on TL. A whole bunch of semantics and word games without every approaching my core point. I use a lot of hyperbole, get over it. Protoss players have stronger timing attacks than zerg. That means protoss players have to practice everything else less. That means if certain strats stop working (get figured out, nerfed, etc) those players will be in relatively bad shape. All the while nobody knows what the current scene would look like if every protoss player played pure macro/reactive from the start I can make this kind of baseless argument, too. - Terran has stronger timing-attacks than Protoss. - That means that Terran players have to practice everything else less. - That means that if certain strats stop working (get figured out, nerfed, etc.) those players will be in relatively bad shape in PvT. - However, Terrans keep winning >50% in PvT, even when their timing-attacks are figured out (i.e. 111). - Therefore, the second point must be incorrect, as Terrans have obviously practiced stuff other than timing-attacks! - Therefore, Protoss players are probably practicing more than just timing-attacks too!! - Therefore, either Protoss are just terrible at PvZ or Protoss is underpowered in PvZ!!! - Conclusion: Protoss is underpowered because top-level players clearly aren't terrible!!!! Now, I don't believe what I have written above because it's obviously incredibly silly, but it's funny how easy it is to make an argument when you start from a flawed hypothesis based on absolutely no data whatsoever (i.e. Terran has more timings than Protoss). Quit looking at Code S for your problems....Protoss does well in every tournament other then Code S. I 'm so sick of seeing this balance crap when none of you even at that caliber of play. You don't know anything...you all agree with something huk says because he's so mad that he won MLG Orlando right? Also MC got 2nd. Protoss is a good race and if you don't think so...you're playing the wrong game, go play CoD scrubs You do realize the statistics is not only from Code S but all tournaments and therefore you argument about Terran only doing good in Code S and nowhere else is invalid. You know, just saying.
These statistics are FISHY as hell. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues take a look here and come back with these stats.
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On November 08 2011 04:33 Bratalix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 04:15 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 01:57 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 01:25 Holophonist wrote:On November 08 2011 00:58 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 00:50 Holophonist wrote:On November 08 2011 00:38 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 00:29 Holophonist wrote:On November 07 2011 20:17 Sated wrote:On November 07 2011 17:39 Topdoller wrote:
[quote]
I am not whining , the game is balanced Clearly not. Look at the graphs. The game should be balanced for the highest level of play, not scrubs like me. You're wrong. Almost everybody buying their product is a scrub. Also, at the highest levels of play, meta game counts for a lot more than how balanced the game is at the core. For instance, what if protoss players are doing poorly because playing protoss was easy as shit before people learned how to stop a lot of their gay stuff? Top players never had to innovate or think outside the box if every game could be won with either 4gate, 6gate or stargate play. This is true for terran as well except they're still the best because even if you figure out what they're doing, it's still hard to stop most of their junk. The bottom line is even if zerg starts to win, it's only because we've been forced to explore every single aspect of every different tech given to us. Seriously, what unit/strat hasn't zerg tried? Whereas you really don't see a lot of different stuff from protoss becuase you simply... don't need to. Well maybe now you do. maybe now you have to get creative and get a mothership or even carriers! or get really sick with your warp prism multitasking. Already answered this: For SC2 to be a legitimate ESPORT, the game has to be balanced at the tournament level. As for the stuff about Protoss players using "gay stuff", are you legitimately trying to say that the top Protoss players don't know what they're doing..? I don't think that's a good argument. EDIT: Also, get creative with "motherships or even carriers"? Those are units that are being removed from the game because Blizzard knows they suck. GG. =/ If you're balancing it for the pros, then it's not balanced. W/e though I'm not gonna try to explain/argue that. What I'm saying is races get into a rut because EVERYBODY DOES THE SAME DAMN THING. You can say that means the pros "don't know what they're doing" but I'm not letting you put words in my mouth. If a race has options that are easily exploitable, then the people who do those things are going to be further behind in other aspects of the game... period. That's what I'm saying. If protoss was able to herp derp a move their way to a lot of wins for the first 8 months of the game or w/e, then they're going to be behind in everything else. That's pretty much a fact. And please re-read what I said once or twice before you post something like "LOL YOU SAID IT'S A FACT THAT PROTOSS PLAYERS R BAD LOLOLOL" or whatever. You've just said Protoss players could A-move for months, implying that Protoss players are bad (even at the highest level). I'm not putting words into your mouth, I'm simply stating the obvious implication you are making with such a sentence. This assertion is silly for a number of reasons. First of all, you have no evidence for a statement like "[Protoss players] a move their way to a lot of wins". I could say something equally silly like, "All Zerg players do is build Roaches, Roaches are IMBA!", because that has just about as much evidence as your assertion does. Second of all, the so-called "gay" strategies you were referring to earlier (6gate, Stargate harassment etc.) require good use of forcefields/blink/graviton beam/void-ray micro to be viable, which means the Protoss player is doing more than A-moving to victory. Third of all, by saying that Protoss hasn't been explored, you're choosing to ignore a lot of top-level play without any good reasons. Protoss have explored their options and they have been found to be lacking, which is why Blizzard are choosing to remove units like the Mothership and the Carrier. EDIT: Look at my first point again. The fact that "macro-stomping" works at lower-levels shows that lower-level players losing to A-move are only doing so because their macro isn't good enough and they need to work on it... which is exactly why balancing for low-level players is a terrible idea: The number of mistakes they make means it is difficult to see what is imbalanced and what isn't. Besides, it's no fun watching tournaments when you know that Race X has an advantage (could be any race, I don't care which). SC2 will die as an ESPORT if the game doesn't become balanced - BW only survived as long as it did because it is very balanced at the top-level, even though it isn't at lower levels (or so I hear). I love arguing on TL. A whole bunch of semantics and word games without every approaching my core point. I use a lot of hyperbole, get over it. Protoss players have stronger timing attacks than zerg. That means protoss players have to practice everything else less. That means if certain strats stop working (get figured out, nerfed, etc) those players will be in relatively bad shape. All the while nobody knows what the current scene would look like if every protoss player played pure macro/reactive from the start I can make this kind of baseless argument, too. - Terran has stronger timing-attacks than Protoss. - That means that Terran players have to practice everything else less. - That means that if certain strats stop working (get figured out, nerfed, etc.) those players will be in relatively bad shape in PvT. - However, Terrans keep winning >50% in PvT, even when their timing-attacks are figured out (i.e. 111). - Therefore, the second point must be incorrect, as Terrans have obviously practiced stuff other than timing-attacks! - Therefore, Protoss players are probably practicing more than just timing-attacks too!! - Therefore, either Protoss are just terrible at PvZ or Protoss is underpowered in PvZ!!! - Conclusion: Protoss is underpowered because top-level players clearly aren't terrible!!!! Now, I don't believe what I have written above because it's obviously incredibly silly, but it's funny how easy it is to make an argument when you start from a flawed hypothesis based on absolutely no data whatsoever (i.e. Terran has more timings than Protoss). Quit looking at Code S for your problems....Protoss does well in every tournament other then Code S. I 'm so sick of seeing this balance crap when none of you even at that caliber of play. You don't know anything...you all agree with something huk says because he's so mad that he won MLG Orlando right? Also MC got 2nd. Protoss is a good race and if you don't think so...you're playing the wrong game, go play CoD scrubs You do realize the statistics is not only from Code S but all tournaments and therefore you argument about Terran only doing good in Code S and nowhere else is invalid. You know, just saying.
Tecnically this month terran has been getting destoryed in Code S and even in Code A....sorry brohan looks like they suck shit other then MvP, Bomber, and MMA. Only terrans that are amazing becasue of "SKILL" not "IMBALANCE"...I believe none of you think a player can actually be better then another player....it's so sad when a player wins you all look to imbalance of a race not the players skill
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On November 08 2011 04:34 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 04:33 Bratalix wrote:On November 08 2011 04:15 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 01:57 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 01:25 Holophonist wrote:On November 08 2011 00:58 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 00:50 Holophonist wrote:On November 08 2011 00:38 Sated wrote:On November 08 2011 00:29 Holophonist wrote:On November 07 2011 20:17 Sated wrote:
[quote]
Clearly not. Look at the graphs. The game should be balanced for the highest level of play, not scrubs like me. You're wrong. Almost everybody buying their product is a scrub. Also, at the highest levels of play, meta game counts for a lot more than how balanced the game is at the core. For instance, what if protoss players are doing poorly because playing protoss was easy as shit before people learned how to stop a lot of their gay stuff? Top players never had to innovate or think outside the box if every game could be won with either 4gate, 6gate or stargate play. This is true for terran as well except they're still the best because even if you figure out what they're doing, it's still hard to stop most of their junk. The bottom line is even if zerg starts to win, it's only because we've been forced to explore every single aspect of every different tech given to us. Seriously, what unit/strat hasn't zerg tried? Whereas you really don't see a lot of different stuff from protoss becuase you simply... don't need to. Well maybe now you do. maybe now you have to get creative and get a mothership or even carriers! or get really sick with your warp prism multitasking. Already answered this: For SC2 to be a legitimate ESPORT, the game has to be balanced at the tournament level. As for the stuff about Protoss players using "gay stuff", are you legitimately trying to say that the top Protoss players don't know what they're doing..? I don't think that's a good argument. EDIT: Also, get creative with "motherships or even carriers"? Those are units that are being removed from the game because Blizzard knows they suck. GG. =/ If you're balancing it for the pros, then it's not balanced. W/e though I'm not gonna try to explain/argue that. What I'm saying is races get into a rut because EVERYBODY DOES THE SAME DAMN THING. You can say that means the pros "don't know what they're doing" but I'm not letting you put words in my mouth. If a race has options that are easily exploitable, then the people who do those things are going to be further behind in other aspects of the game... period. That's what I'm saying. If protoss was able to herp derp a move their way to a lot of wins for the first 8 months of the game or w/e, then they're going to be behind in everything else. That's pretty much a fact. And please re-read what I said once or twice before you post something like "LOL YOU SAID IT'S A FACT THAT PROTOSS PLAYERS R BAD LOLOLOL" or whatever. You've just said Protoss players could A-move for months, implying that Protoss players are bad (even at the highest level). I'm not putting words into your mouth, I'm simply stating the obvious implication you are making with such a sentence. This assertion is silly for a number of reasons. First of all, you have no evidence for a statement like "[Protoss players] a move their way to a lot of wins". I could say something equally silly like, "All Zerg players do is build Roaches, Roaches are IMBA!", because that has just about as much evidence as your assertion does. Second of all, the so-called "gay" strategies you were referring to earlier (6gate, Stargate harassment etc.) require good use of forcefields/blink/graviton beam/void-ray micro to be viable, which means the Protoss player is doing more than A-moving to victory. Third of all, by saying that Protoss hasn't been explored, you're choosing to ignore a lot of top-level play without any good reasons. Protoss have explored their options and they have been found to be lacking, which is why Blizzard are choosing to remove units like the Mothership and the Carrier. EDIT: Look at my first point again. The fact that "macro-stomping" works at lower-levels shows that lower-level players losing to A-move are only doing so because their macro isn't good enough and they need to work on it... which is exactly why balancing for low-level players is a terrible idea: The number of mistakes they make means it is difficult to see what is imbalanced and what isn't. Besides, it's no fun watching tournaments when you know that Race X has an advantage (could be any race, I don't care which). SC2 will die as an ESPORT if the game doesn't become balanced - BW only survived as long as it did because it is very balanced at the top-level, even though it isn't at lower levels (or so I hear). I love arguing on TL. A whole bunch of semantics and word games without every approaching my core point. I use a lot of hyperbole, get over it. Protoss players have stronger timing attacks than zerg. That means protoss players have to practice everything else less. That means if certain strats stop working (get figured out, nerfed, etc) those players will be in relatively bad shape. All the while nobody knows what the current scene would look like if every protoss player played pure macro/reactive from the start I can make this kind of baseless argument, too. - Terran has stronger timing-attacks than Protoss. - That means that Terran players have to practice everything else less. - That means that if certain strats stop working (get figured out, nerfed, etc.) those players will be in relatively bad shape in PvT. - However, Terrans keep winning >50% in PvT, even when their timing-attacks are figured out (i.e. 111). - Therefore, the second point must be incorrect, as Terrans have obviously practiced stuff other than timing-attacks! - Therefore, Protoss players are probably practicing more than just timing-attacks too!! - Therefore, either Protoss are just terrible at PvZ or Protoss is underpowered in PvZ!!! - Conclusion: Protoss is underpowered because top-level players clearly aren't terrible!!!! Now, I don't believe what I have written above because it's obviously incredibly silly, but it's funny how easy it is to make an argument when you start from a flawed hypothesis based on absolutely no data whatsoever (i.e. Terran has more timings than Protoss). Quit looking at Code S for your problems....Protoss does well in every tournament other then Code S. I 'm so sick of seeing this balance crap when none of you even at that caliber of play. You don't know anything...you all agree with something huk says because he's so mad that he won MLG Orlando right? Also MC got 2nd. Protoss is a good race and if you don't think so...you're playing the wrong game, go play CoD scrubs You do realize the statistics is not only from Code S but all tournaments and therefore you argument about Terran only doing good in Code S and nowhere else is invalid. You know, just saying. These statistics are FISHY as hell. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues take a look here and come back with these stats.
Yeah seriously, I honestly thought Protoss did quite well in the international scene last month, at least compared to the other month before.
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PvZ now is worse than ZvP at the height of the deathball era, and has been for two straight months. PvZ is getting worse and not better, even as pro P players attempt to explore more possibilities like the FFE into 2 gates and warp prism play.
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On November 08 2011 04:19 VPVash wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 04:11 hellohilo wrote:
It's interesting that pro tosses (yuk yuk yuk) are having so much difficulty recently, especially with some of the recent metagame shifts that have occurred (mainly the use of immortals way more). I feel like it may take a new "innovator" to redefine the metagame and bring toss back to prominence, kind of like MC first did with his void ray play way back when in GSL3. Hello, please tell me why there having trouble "recently" I wanna know. This graph proves nothing at all. Look at tournaments "the only thing that matters" protoss players are winning and taking 2nd in almost every tournament. Please tell me what Terran does outside of Code S. Please???? I really wanna know why all of you think Terran is Imba...because you never been so wrong. Like the arguments on balance are literally a joke anymore.
ok, i'll bite.
well firstly, toss doesn't take 1st and 2nd in almost every international tournament, and secondly, the only reason people like huk and mc were at the finals was because they were way better than anyone else there.
so am i allowed to make the same argument terran players do or is not not allowed? "the protoss were just better than everyone else there"
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On November 08 2011 04:19 VPVash wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 04:11 hellohilo wrote:
It's interesting that pro tosses (yuk yuk yuk) are having so much difficulty recently, especially with some of the recent metagame shifts that have occurred (mainly the use of immortals way more). I feel like it may take a new "innovator" to redefine the metagame and bring toss back to prominence, kind of like MC first did with his void ray play way back when in GSL3. Hello, please tell me why there having trouble "recently" I wanna know. This graph proves nothing at all. Look at tournaments "the only thing that matters" protoss players are winning and taking 2nd in almost every tournament. Please tell me what Terran does outside of Code S. Please???? I really wanna know why all of you think Terran is Imba...because you never been so wrong. Like the arguments on balance are literally a joke anymore.
I feel like you're just baiting but it has been brought the reasons have been brought up many, many times. I'll give you one:
-Ghosts: Specifically EMP. Which is being nerfed next patch. And yes we may not all be top code S players, but I know personally I've had games where a smaller EMP radius would've been enough to get just a couple more storms off and win the game.
Also I think you're using 'every tournament' incorrectly instead of saying 'the last MLG'.
Blizzard seems to agree toss needs help by looking at the PTR notes.
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On November 08 2011 04:19 VPVash wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 04:11 hellohilo wrote:
It's interesting that pro tosses (yuk yuk yuk) are having so much difficulty recently, especially with some of the recent metagame shifts that have occurred (mainly the use of immortals way more). I feel like it may take a new "innovator" to redefine the metagame and bring toss back to prominence, kind of like MC first did with his void ray play way back when in GSL3. Hello, please tell me why there having trouble "recently" I wanna know. This graph proves nothing at all. Look at tournaments "the only thing that matters" protoss players are winning and taking 2nd in almost every tournament. Please tell me what Terran does outside of Code S. Please???? I really wanna know why all of you think Terran is Imba...because you never been so wrong. Like the arguments on balance are literally a joke anymore.
While he deserved the title, it should also be noted that Huk probably played more PvPs than any other match-ups at MLG. MC who came in second went through a more balanced road to the finals, though he came from the group of PvP as well. The other major tournament that had Protoss as second was ESWC, where Mana had a pure PvP route in the main tournament to the finals. Even Oz in the Code A finals had PvP for the quarter and semi finals.
I'm not saying they failed to impress, but rather, statistically speaking, it just turns out that the tournament roads for these Protoss achievements had little impact on Protoss match-ups relative to the other two races. This just simply means that there's reason for me to trust the graph that the Protoss indeed have trouble in playing other races.
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On November 08 2011 04:33 VPVash wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 04:23 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 04:19 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 04:11 hellohilo wrote:
It's interesting that pro tosses (yuk yuk yuk) are having so much difficulty recently, especially with some of the recent metagame shifts that have occurred (mainly the use of immortals way more). I feel like it may take a new "innovator" to redefine the metagame and bring toss back to prominence, kind of like MC first did with his void ray play way back when in GSL3. Hello, please tell me why there having trouble "recently" I wanna know. This graph proves nothing at all. Look at tournaments "the only thing that matters" protoss players are winning and taking 2nd in almost every tournament. Please tell me what Terran does outside of Code S. Please???? I really wanna know why all of you think Terran is Imba...because you never been so wrong. Like the arguments on balance are literally a joke anymore. They don't have a reason why they think terran is imba. Toss and zerg are dominating on ladder (you know, the place where all these whiners play), and tourneys (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues) get dominated by zergs. People just love to think that their race is UP and that other races are OP. This way they win because of their awesomeness, and lose because of imbalance . The only place where we see terrans dominating is GSL CODE S, and that's the only argument they have. Don't expect some other argument because there is not a single one. After this emp nerf tvp lategame will be even a bigger joke. Someone who is actually smart????!?!?!!?!?!? Is this real life?!?!??!??!
@ Vash and Snow.
Why don't you want to see a balanced game?
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Upload the korean games please.
edit: i mean the graph, ofc.
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On November 08 2011 04:11 hellohilo wrote:
It's interesting that pro tosses (yuk yuk yuk) are having so much difficulty recently, especially with some of the recent metagame shifts that have occurred (mainly the use of immortals way more). I feel like it may take a new "innovator" to redefine the metagame and bring toss back to prominence, kind of like MC first did with his void ray play way back when in GSL3.
But there has already been innovation with warp prism harass and that kind of stuff and it isn't really helping . Although balance doesn't really affect me I still feel bad for my race doing so poorly.
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On November 08 2011 06:16 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 04:33 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 04:23 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 04:19 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 04:11 hellohilo wrote:
It's interesting that pro tosses (yuk yuk yuk) are having so much difficulty recently, especially with some of the recent metagame shifts that have occurred (mainly the use of immortals way more). I feel like it may take a new "innovator" to redefine the metagame and bring toss back to prominence, kind of like MC first did with his void ray play way back when in GSL3. Hello, please tell me why there having trouble "recently" I wanna know. This graph proves nothing at all. Look at tournaments "the only thing that matters" protoss players are winning and taking 2nd in almost every tournament. Please tell me what Terran does outside of Code S. Please???? I really wanna know why all of you think Terran is Imba...because you never been so wrong. Like the arguments on balance are literally a joke anymore. They don't have a reason why they think terran is imba. Toss and zerg are dominating on ladder (you know, the place where all these whiners play), and tourneys (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues) get dominated by zergs. People just love to think that their race is UP and that other races are OP. This way they win because of their awesomeness, and lose because of imbalance . The only place where we see terrans dominating is GSL CODE S, and that's the only argument they have. Don't expect some other argument because there is not a single one. After this emp nerf tvp lategame will be even a bigger joke. Someone who is actually smart????!?!?!!?!?!? Is this real life?!?!??!??! @ Vash and Snow. Why don't you want to see a balanced game?
We want? I showed you grandmaster ladder stats AND I showed the tournament page. Both indicate a balanced game. The only thing you guys use is "GSL CODE S is full of terrans". Meanwhile terran is getting nerfed and alot of people claim more nerfs. This is just sad imo.
When I show ladder stats I get the response: "ladder is not important, tournaments are".
When I show tournament stats I get the response: "but GSL code S is full of terrans".
Take a look at the tournament stat page, then take a look at the graph, and notice how something is fishy about it.
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I don´t know why you guys love trying to prove someone wrong on this kind of threads.
Everybody shows up with their minds already made up no matter what.
If stats say they are wrong they don´t matter
If they do they matter.
Hell, most tournaments bar Code S have been pretty balanced results wise, but people don´t want to acknowledge that. I don´t know if the game is balanced or not, but things are not as bad as people are making them out to be.
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EPT
