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On November 08 2011 07:23 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 07:20 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 06:27 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:24 iamke55 wrote:On November 08 2011 06:20 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:16 Sabu113 wrote:On November 08 2011 04:33 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 04:23 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 04:19 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 04:11 hellohilo wrote:
It's interesting that pro tosses (yuk yuk yuk) are having so much difficulty recently, especially with some of the recent metagame shifts that have occurred (mainly the use of immortals way more). I feel like it may take a new "innovator" to redefine the metagame and bring toss back to prominence, kind of like MC first did with his void ray play way back when in GSL3. Hello, please tell me why there having trouble "recently" I wanna know. This graph proves nothing at all. Look at tournaments "the only thing that matters" protoss players are winning and taking 2nd in almost every tournament. Please tell me what Terran does outside of Code S. Please???? I really wanna know why all of you think Terran is Imba...because you never been so wrong. Like the arguments on balance are literally a joke anymore. They don't have a reason why they think terran is imba. Toss and zerg are dominating on ladder (you know, the place where all these whiners play), and tourneys (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues) get dominated by zergs. People just love to think that their race is UP and that other races are OP. This way they win because of their awesomeness, and lose because of imbalance  . The only place where we see terrans dominating is GSL CODE S, and that's the only argument they have. Don't expect some other argument because there is not a single one. After this emp nerf tvp lategame will be even a bigger joke. Someone who is actually smart????!?!?!!?!?!? Is this real life?!?!??!??! @ Vash and Snow. Why don't you want to see a balanced game? We want? I showed you grandmaster ladder stats AND I showed the tournament page. Both indicate a balanced game. The only thing you guys use is "GSL CODE S is full of terrans". Meanwhile terran is getting nerfed and alot of people claim more nerfs. This is just sad imo. When I show ladder stats I get the response: "ladder is not important, tournaments are". When I show tournament stats I get the response: "but GSL code S is full of terrans". Take a look at the tournament stat page, then take a look at the graph, and notice how something is fishy about it. All your grandmaster stats have accomplished is disprove the whole "more good players play Terran" argument. I never said that the high population of terrans in code S is due more good players playing terran. Code S is the only place with such a high population of terrans, and I think it's sad to conclude imbalance from that. Isn't it the GSL format that makes terrans stay in code S? I don't understand why so few people agree with this. You guys all conclude imbalance from code S GSL. Ladder and any other tournament show the opposite, but everybody seems to ignore this. The only thing I read is "MORE TERRAN NERFS" and "TERRAN IS IMBA". I have not seen any of these stats that show the opposite. The ladder is also a bad place to for stats, since it is build to give everyone a 50/50 win ratio. From my understanding Korea is a bad land for protoss and a grand land for terran. Korea is pretty much accepted that is the place with the highest level of play. Even pros like PainUser, EGDeMusliM and MVP have been quoted there are some parts of terran that are slightly over powered. Its a bummer if your having a rough time and your race may be nerfed, no one cared when I was getting rolled as a Protoss and they increased the time on Warpgate. The opposite is showed on sc2ranks (see ladder grandmaster stats) and on this page: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues
You keep throwning those status up like that mean something. Most of the professional players do not agree with you. I am sorry I do not have a page full of stats that show this, but it is true. If you want, listen to Inside the Game from 10/25 where they discuss the EMP nerf. Both PainUser and EGDeMusliM, both terran players, have no issues and believe it is good for the game.
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On November 08 2011 07:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 07:23 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 07:20 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 06:27 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:24 iamke55 wrote:On November 08 2011 06:20 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:16 Sabu113 wrote:On November 08 2011 04:33 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 04:23 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 04:19 VPVash wrote:
[quote]
Hello, please tell me why there having trouble "recently" I wanna know. This graph proves nothing at all. Look at tournaments "the only thing that matters" protoss players are winning and taking 2nd in almost every tournament. Please tell me what Terran does outside of Code S. Please???? I really wanna know why all of you think Terran is Imba...because you never been so wrong. Like the arguments on balance are literally a joke anymore. They don't have a reason why they think terran is imba. Toss and zerg are dominating on ladder (you know, the place where all these whiners play), and tourneys (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues) get dominated by zergs. People just love to think that their race is UP and that other races are OP. This way they win because of their awesomeness, and lose because of imbalance . The only place where we see terrans dominating is GSL CODE S, and that's the only argument they have. Don't expect some other argument because there is not a single one. After this emp nerf tvp lategame will be even a bigger joke. Someone who is actually smart????!?!?!!?!?!? Is this real life?!?!??!??! @ Vash and Snow. Why don't you want to see a balanced game? We want? I showed you grandmaster ladder stats AND I showed the tournament page. Both indicate a balanced game. The only thing you guys use is "GSL CODE S is full of terrans". Meanwhile terran is getting nerfed and alot of people claim more nerfs. This is just sad imo. When I show ladder stats I get the response: "ladder is not important, tournaments are". When I show tournament stats I get the response: "but GSL code S is full of terrans". Take a look at the tournament stat page, then take a look at the graph, and notice how something is fishy about it. All your grandmaster stats have accomplished is disprove the whole "more good players play Terran" argument. I never said that the high population of terrans in code S is due more good players playing terran. Code S is the only place with such a high population of terrans, and I think it's sad to conclude imbalance from that. Isn't it the GSL format that makes terrans stay in code S? I don't understand why so few people agree with this. You guys all conclude imbalance from code S GSL. Ladder and any other tournament show the opposite, but everybody seems to ignore this. The only thing I read is "MORE TERRAN NERFS" and "TERRAN IS IMBA". I have not seen any of these stats that show the opposite. The ladder is also a bad place to for stats, since it is build to give everyone a 50/50 win ratio. From my understanding Korea is a bad land for protoss and a grand land for terran. Korea is pretty much accepted that is the place with the highest level of play. Even pros like PainUser, EGDeMusliM and MVP have been quoted there are some parts of terran that are slightly over powered. Its a bummer if your having a rough time and your race may be nerfed, no one cared when I was getting rolled as a Protoss and they increased the time on Warpgate. The opposite is showed on sc2ranks (see ladder grandmaster stats) and on this page: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues You keep throwning those status up like that mean something. Most of the professional players do not agree with you. I am sorry I do not have a page full of stats that show this, but it is true. If you want, listen to Inside the Game from 10/25 where they discuss the EMP nerf. Both PainUser and EGDeMusliM, both terran players, have no issues and believe it is good for the game.
Yes, and meanwhile demuslim and painuser are winning tournaments  , or don't they?
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well some terrans gotta lose...guess i fill that role in quite nicely
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On November 08 2011 07:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 07:23 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 07:20 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 06:27 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:24 iamke55 wrote:On November 08 2011 06:20 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:16 Sabu113 wrote:On November 08 2011 04:33 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 04:23 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 04:19 VPVash wrote:
[quote]
Hello, please tell me why there having trouble "recently" I wanna know. This graph proves nothing at all. Look at tournaments "the only thing that matters" protoss players are winning and taking 2nd in almost every tournament. Please tell me what Terran does outside of Code S. Please???? I really wanna know why all of you think Terran is Imba...because you never been so wrong. Like the arguments on balance are literally a joke anymore. They don't have a reason why they think terran is imba. Toss and zerg are dominating on ladder (you know, the place where all these whiners play), and tourneys (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues) get dominated by zergs. People just love to think that their race is UP and that other races are OP. This way they win because of their awesomeness, and lose because of imbalance . The only place where we see terrans dominating is GSL CODE S, and that's the only argument they have. Don't expect some other argument because there is not a single one. After this emp nerf tvp lategame will be even a bigger joke. Someone who is actually smart????!?!?!!?!?!? Is this real life?!?!??!??! @ Vash and Snow. Why don't you want to see a balanced game? We want? I showed you grandmaster ladder stats AND I showed the tournament page. Both indicate a balanced game. The only thing you guys use is "GSL CODE S is full of terrans". Meanwhile terran is getting nerfed and alot of people claim more nerfs. This is just sad imo. When I show ladder stats I get the response: "ladder is not important, tournaments are". When I show tournament stats I get the response: "but GSL code S is full of terrans". Take a look at the tournament stat page, then take a look at the graph, and notice how something is fishy about it. All your grandmaster stats have accomplished is disprove the whole "more good players play Terran" argument. I never said that the high population of terrans in code S is due more good players playing terran. Code S is the only place with such a high population of terrans, and I think it's sad to conclude imbalance from that. Isn't it the GSL format that makes terrans stay in code S? I don't understand why so few people agree with this. You guys all conclude imbalance from code S GSL. Ladder and any other tournament show the opposite, but everybody seems to ignore this. The only thing I read is "MORE TERRAN NERFS" and "TERRAN IS IMBA". I have not seen any of these stats that show the opposite. The ladder is also a bad place to for stats, since it is build to give everyone a 50/50 win ratio. From my understanding Korea is a bad land for protoss and a grand land for terran. Korea is pretty much accepted that is the place with the highest level of play. Even pros like PainUser, EGDeMusliM and MVP have been quoted there are some parts of terran that are slightly over powered. Its a bummer if your having a rough time and your race may be nerfed, no one cared when I was getting rolled as a Protoss and they increased the time on Warpgate. The opposite is showed on sc2ranks (see ladder grandmaster stats) and on this page: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues You keep throwning those status up like that mean something. Most of the professional players do not agree with you. I am sorry I do not have a page full of stats that show this, but it is true. If you want, listen to Inside the Game from 10/25 where they discuss the EMP nerf. Both PainUser and EGDeMusliM, both terran players, have no issues and believe it is good for the game.
Wait wait wait wait...didn't painuser get wrecked by HerO??????????????
On November 08 2011 07:34 hytonight wrote:
well some terrans gotta lose...guess i fill that role in quite nicely
Also you mean all Terrans other then Mvp,and MMA?
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On November 08 2011 06:48 Masq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 05:06 Silidons wrote:On November 08 2011 04:19 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 04:11 hellohilo wrote:
It's interesting that pro tosses (yuk yuk yuk) are having so much difficulty recently, especially with some of the recent metagame shifts that have occurred (mainly the use of immortals way more). I feel like it may take a new "innovator" to redefine the metagame and bring toss back to prominence, kind of like MC first did with his void ray play way back when in GSL3. Hello, please tell me why there having trouble "recently" I wanna know. This graph proves nothing at all. Look at tournaments "the only thing that matters" protoss players are winning and taking 2nd in almost every tournament. Please tell me what Terran does outside of Code S. Please???? I really wanna know why all of you think Terran is Imba...because you never been so wrong. Like the arguments on balance are literally a joke anymore. ok, i'll bite. well firstly, toss doesn't take 1st and 2nd in almost every international tournament, and secondly, the only reason people like huk and mc were at the finals was because they were way better than anyone else there. so am i allowed to make the same argument terran players do or is not not allowed? "the protoss were just better than everyone else there" not really safe to say huk and MC are WAY better than people like stc, alive, stephano, ret, sheth, idra, july, alive, artist, bomber, marineking, polt, puma, rain, inori, kiwikaki, sase, whitera, yadda yadda yadda
As far as I'm aware they only encountered STC (both), Ret (MC), Marineking (both), July (both but MC did lose that series due to his pylon mess-up, even though his build when executed properly beats July's all-in),Puma (MC), and Rain (MC) and yes, they are better than all of them with Marineking being around even because of the power of his early/mid game and STC a bit behind. In the end you named a bunch of other protoss which is weird in light of your argument, but yes they are better than all of those protosses minus Inori being better PvP.
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On November 08 2011 07:38 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 06:48 Masq wrote:On November 08 2011 05:06 Silidons wrote:On November 08 2011 04:19 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 04:11 hellohilo wrote:
It's interesting that pro tosses (yuk yuk yuk) are having so much difficulty recently, especially with some of the recent metagame shifts that have occurred (mainly the use of immortals way more). I feel like it may take a new "innovator" to redefine the metagame and bring toss back to prominence, kind of like MC first did with his void ray play way back when in GSL3. Hello, please tell me why there having trouble "recently" I wanna know. This graph proves nothing at all. Look at tournaments "the only thing that matters" protoss players are winning and taking 2nd in almost every tournament. Please tell me what Terran does outside of Code S. Please???? I really wanna know why all of you think Terran is Imba...because you never been so wrong. Like the arguments on balance are literally a joke anymore. ok, i'll bite. well firstly, toss doesn't take 1st and 2nd in almost every international tournament, and secondly, the only reason people like huk and mc were at the finals was because they were way better than anyone else there. so am i allowed to make the same argument terran players do or is not not allowed? "the protoss were just better than everyone else there" not really safe to say huk and MC are WAY better than people like stc, alive, stephano, ret, sheth, idra, july, alive, artist, bomber, marineking, polt, puma, rain, inori, kiwikaki, sase, whitera, yadda yadda yadda As far as I'm aware they only encountered STC (both), Ret (MC), Marineking (both), July (Huk),Puma (MC), and Rain (MC) and yes, they are better than all of them with Marineking being around even because of the power of his early/mid game and STC a bit behind. In the end you named a bunch of other protoss which is weird in light of your argument, but yes they are better than all of those protosses minus Inori being better PvP.
Your argument is so well thought out. Calling them "better". Nicely stated
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to be fair- BW was NEVER balanced
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On November 08 2011 07:32 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 07:27 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 07:23 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 07:20 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 06:27 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:24 iamke55 wrote:On November 08 2011 06:20 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:16 Sabu113 wrote:On November 08 2011 04:33 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 04:23 Snowbear wrote:[quote] They don't have a reason why they think terran is imba. Toss and zerg are dominating on ladder (you know, the place where all these whiners play), and tourneys (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues) get dominated by zergs. People just love to think that their race is UP and that other races are OP. This way they win because of their awesomeness, and lose because of imbalance . The only place where we see terrans dominating is GSL CODE S, and that's the only argument they have. Don't expect some other argument because there is not a single one. After this emp nerf tvp lategame will be even a bigger joke. Someone who is actually smart????!?!?!!?!?!? Is this real life?!?!??!??! @ Vash and Snow. Why don't you want to see a balanced game? We want? I showed you grandmaster ladder stats AND I showed the tournament page. Both indicate a balanced game. The only thing you guys use is "GSL CODE S is full of terrans". Meanwhile terran is getting nerfed and alot of people claim more nerfs. This is just sad imo. When I show ladder stats I get the response: "ladder is not important, tournaments are". When I show tournament stats I get the response: "but GSL code S is full of terrans". Take a look at the tournament stat page, then take a look at the graph, and notice how something is fishy about it. All your grandmaster stats have accomplished is disprove the whole "more good players play Terran" argument. I never said that the high population of terrans in code S is due more good players playing terran. Code S is the only place with such a high population of terrans, and I think it's sad to conclude imbalance from that. Isn't it the GSL format that makes terrans stay in code S? I don't understand why so few people agree with this. You guys all conclude imbalance from code S GSL. Ladder and any other tournament show the opposite, but everybody seems to ignore this. The only thing I read is "MORE TERRAN NERFS" and "TERRAN IS IMBA". I have not seen any of these stats that show the opposite. The ladder is also a bad place to for stats, since it is build to give everyone a 50/50 win ratio. From my understanding Korea is a bad land for protoss and a grand land for terran. Korea is pretty much accepted that is the place with the highest level of play. Even pros like PainUser, EGDeMusliM and MVP have been quoted there are some parts of terran that are slightly over powered. Its a bummer if your having a rough time and your race may be nerfed, no one cared when I was getting rolled as a Protoss and they increased the time on Warpgate. The opposite is showed on sc2ranks (see ladder grandmaster stats) and on this page: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues You keep throwning those status up like that mean something. Most of the professional players do not agree with you. I am sorry I do not have a page full of stats that show this, but it is true. If you want, listen to Inside the Game from 10/25 where they discuss the EMP nerf. Both PainUser and EGDeMusliM, both terran players, have no issues and believe it is good for the game. Yes, and meanwhile demuslim and painuser are winning tournaments , or don't they?
I think you just made my point for me. They are not winning tournments, but they seem to have no problem with the nerf. Also, demuslim is doing quite well recently.
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On November 08 2011 06:20 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 06:16 Sabu113 wrote:On November 08 2011 04:33 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 04:23 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 04:19 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 04:11 hellohilo wrote:
It's interesting that pro tosses (yuk yuk yuk) are having so much difficulty recently, especially with some of the recent metagame shifts that have occurred (mainly the use of immortals way more). I feel like it may take a new "innovator" to redefine the metagame and bring toss back to prominence, kind of like MC first did with his void ray play way back when in GSL3. Hello, please tell me why there having trouble "recently" I wanna know. This graph proves nothing at all. Look at tournaments "the only thing that matters" protoss players are winning and taking 2nd in almost every tournament. Please tell me what Terran does outside of Code S. Please???? I really wanna know why all of you think Terran is Imba...because you never been so wrong. Like the arguments on balance are literally a joke anymore. They don't have a reason why they think terran is imba. Toss and zerg are dominating on ladder (you know, the place where all these whiners play), and tourneys (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues) get dominated by zergs. People just love to think that their race is UP and that other races are OP. This way they win because of their awesomeness, and lose because of imbalance . The only place where we see terrans dominating is GSL CODE S, and that's the only argument they have. Don't expect some other argument because there is not a single one. After this emp nerf tvp lategame will be even a bigger joke. Someone who is actually smart????!?!?!!?!?!? Is this real life?!?!??!??! @ Vash and Snow. Why don't you want to see a balanced game? We want? I showed you grandmaster ladder stats AND I showed the tournament page. Both indicate a balanced game. The only thing you guys use is "GSL CODE S is full of terrans". Meanwhile terran is getting nerfed and alot of people claim more nerfs. This is just sad imo. When I show ladder stats I get the response: "ladder is not important, tournaments are". When I show tournament stats I get the response: "but GSL code S is full of terrans". Take a look at the tournament stat page, then take a look at the graph, and notice how something is fishy about it.
Are you using straight up ladder win rates? or some kind of mmr adjusted stat? Because if you're not, it doesn't mean anything at all except their mmr system is effective enough to keep people of the same capabilities (personal skill + race preference) together.
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On November 08 2011 07:48 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 06:20 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:16 Sabu113 wrote:On November 08 2011 04:33 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 04:23 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 04:19 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 04:11 hellohilo wrote:
It's interesting that pro tosses (yuk yuk yuk) are having so much difficulty recently, especially with some of the recent metagame shifts that have occurred (mainly the use of immortals way more). I feel like it may take a new "innovator" to redefine the metagame and bring toss back to prominence, kind of like MC first did with his void ray play way back when in GSL3. Hello, please tell me why there having trouble "recently" I wanna know. This graph proves nothing at all. Look at tournaments "the only thing that matters" protoss players are winning and taking 2nd in almost every tournament. Please tell me what Terran does outside of Code S. Please???? I really wanna know why all of you think Terran is Imba...because you never been so wrong. Like the arguments on balance are literally a joke anymore. They don't have a reason why they think terran is imba. Toss and zerg are dominating on ladder (you know, the place where all these whiners play), and tourneys (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues) get dominated by zergs. People just love to think that their race is UP and that other races are OP. This way they win because of their awesomeness, and lose because of imbalance . The only place where we see terrans dominating is GSL CODE S, and that's the only argument they have. Don't expect some other argument because there is not a single one. After this emp nerf tvp lategame will be even a bigger joke. Someone who is actually smart????!?!?!!?!?!? Is this real life?!?!??!??! @ Vash and Snow. Why don't you want to see a balanced game? We want? I showed you grandmaster ladder stats AND I showed the tournament page. Both indicate a balanced game. The only thing you guys use is "GSL CODE S is full of terrans". Meanwhile terran is getting nerfed and alot of people claim more nerfs. This is just sad imo. When I show ladder stats I get the response: "ladder is not important, tournaments are". When I show tournament stats I get the response: "but GSL code S is full of terrans". Take a look at the tournament stat page, then take a look at the graph, and notice how something is fishy about it. Are you using straight up ladder win rates? or some kind of mmr adjusted stat? Because if you're not, it doesn't mean anything at all except their mmr system is effective enough to keep people of the same capabilities (personal skill + race preference) together.
I'm using the amount of players in grandmaster. If there are more tosses then terran in grandmaster then toss isn't that weak, or is it?
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On November 08 2011 07:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 07:32 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 07:27 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 07:23 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 07:20 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 06:27 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:24 iamke55 wrote:On November 08 2011 06:20 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:16 Sabu113 wrote:On November 08 2011 04:33 VPVash wrote:
[quote]
Someone who is actually smart????!?!?!!?!?!? Is this real life?!?!??!??! @ Vash and Snow. Why don't you want to see a balanced game? We want? I showed you grandmaster ladder stats AND I showed the tournament page. Both indicate a balanced game. The only thing you guys use is "GSL CODE S is full of terrans". Meanwhile terran is getting nerfed and alot of people claim more nerfs. This is just sad imo. When I show ladder stats I get the response: "ladder is not important, tournaments are". When I show tournament stats I get the response: "but GSL code S is full of terrans". Take a look at the tournament stat page, then take a look at the graph, and notice how something is fishy about it. All your grandmaster stats have accomplished is disprove the whole "more good players play Terran" argument. I never said that the high population of terrans in code S is due more good players playing terran. Code S is the only place with such a high population of terrans, and I think it's sad to conclude imbalance from that. Isn't it the GSL format that makes terrans stay in code S? I don't understand why so few people agree with this. You guys all conclude imbalance from code S GSL. Ladder and any other tournament show the opposite, but everybody seems to ignore this. The only thing I read is "MORE TERRAN NERFS" and "TERRAN IS IMBA". I have not seen any of these stats that show the opposite. The ladder is also a bad place to for stats, since it is build to give everyone a 50/50 win ratio. From my understanding Korea is a bad land for protoss and a grand land for terran. Korea is pretty much accepted that is the place with the highest level of play. Even pros like PainUser, EGDeMusliM and MVP have been quoted there are some parts of terran that are slightly over powered. Its a bummer if your having a rough time and your race may be nerfed, no one cared when I was getting rolled as a Protoss and they increased the time on Warpgate. The opposite is showed on sc2ranks (see ladder grandmaster stats) and on this page: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues You keep throwning those status up like that mean something. Most of the professional players do not agree with you. I am sorry I do not have a page full of stats that show this, but it is true. If you want, listen to Inside the Game from 10/25 where they discuss the EMP nerf. Both PainUser and EGDeMusliM, both terran players, have no issues and believe it is good for the game. Yes, and meanwhile demuslim and painuser are winning tournaments , or don't they? I think you just made my point for me. They are not winning tournments, but they seem to have no problem with the nerf. Also, demuslim is doing quite well recently.
That doesn't prove your point. You don't even have a point.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On November 08 2011 07:51 VPVash wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 07:47 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 07:32 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 07:27 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 07:23 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 07:20 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 06:27 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:24 iamke55 wrote:On November 08 2011 06:20 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:16 Sabu113 wrote:
[quote]
@ Vash and Snow.
Why don't you want to see a balanced game? We want? I showed you grandmaster ladder stats AND I showed the tournament page. Both indicate a balanced game. The only thing you guys use is "GSL CODE S is full of terrans". Meanwhile terran is getting nerfed and alot of people claim more nerfs. This is just sad imo. When I show ladder stats I get the response: "ladder is not important, tournaments are". When I show tournament stats I get the response: "but GSL code S is full of terrans". Take a look at the tournament stat page, then take a look at the graph, and notice how something is fishy about it. All your grandmaster stats have accomplished is disprove the whole "more good players play Terran" argument. I never said that the high population of terrans in code S is due more good players playing terran. Code S is the only place with such a high population of terrans, and I think it's sad to conclude imbalance from that. Isn't it the GSL format that makes terrans stay in code S? I don't understand why so few people agree with this. You guys all conclude imbalance from code S GSL. Ladder and any other tournament show the opposite, but everybody seems to ignore this. The only thing I read is "MORE TERRAN NERFS" and "TERRAN IS IMBA". I have not seen any of these stats that show the opposite. The ladder is also a bad place to for stats, since it is build to give everyone a 50/50 win ratio. From my understanding Korea is a bad land for protoss and a grand land for terran. Korea is pretty much accepted that is the place with the highest level of play. Even pros like PainUser, EGDeMusliM and MVP have been quoted there are some parts of terran that are slightly over powered. Its a bummer if your having a rough time and your race may be nerfed, no one cared when I was getting rolled as a Protoss and they increased the time on Warpgate. The opposite is showed on sc2ranks (see ladder grandmaster stats) and on this page: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues You keep throwning those status up like that mean something. Most of the professional players do not agree with you. I am sorry I do not have a page full of stats that show this, but it is true. If you want, listen to Inside the Game from 10/25 where they discuss the EMP nerf. Both PainUser and EGDeMusliM, both terran players, have no issues and believe it is good for the game. Yes, and meanwhile demuslim and painuser are winning tournaments , or don't they? I think you just made my point for me. They are not winning tournments, but they seem to have no problem with the nerf. Also, demuslim is doing quite well recently. That doesn't prove your point. You don't even have a point.
Vash, do you actually have a point in the whole topic?
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On November 08 2011 07:51 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 07:48 Holophonist wrote:On November 08 2011 06:20 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:16 Sabu113 wrote:On November 08 2011 04:33 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 04:23 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 04:19 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 04:11 hellohilo wrote:
It's interesting that pro tosses (yuk yuk yuk) are having so much difficulty recently, especially with some of the recent metagame shifts that have occurred (mainly the use of immortals way more). I feel like it may take a new "innovator" to redefine the metagame and bring toss back to prominence, kind of like MC first did with his void ray play way back when in GSL3. Hello, please tell me why there having trouble "recently" I wanna know. This graph proves nothing at all. Look at tournaments "the only thing that matters" protoss players are winning and taking 2nd in almost every tournament. Please tell me what Terran does outside of Code S. Please???? I really wanna know why all of you think Terran is Imba...because you never been so wrong. Like the arguments on balance are literally a joke anymore. They don't have a reason why they think terran is imba. Toss and zerg are dominating on ladder (you know, the place where all these whiners play), and tourneys (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues) get dominated by zergs. People just love to think that their race is UP and that other races are OP. This way they win because of their awesomeness, and lose because of imbalance . The only place where we see terrans dominating is GSL CODE S, and that's the only argument they have. Don't expect some other argument because there is not a single one. After this emp nerf tvp lategame will be even a bigger joke. Someone who is actually smart????!?!?!!?!?!? Is this real life?!?!??!??! @ Vash and Snow. Why don't you want to see a balanced game? We want? I showed you grandmaster ladder stats AND I showed the tournament page. Both indicate a balanced game. The only thing you guys use is "GSL CODE S is full of terrans". Meanwhile terran is getting nerfed and alot of people claim more nerfs. This is just sad imo. When I show ladder stats I get the response: "ladder is not important, tournaments are". When I show tournament stats I get the response: "but GSL code S is full of terrans". Take a look at the tournament stat page, then take a look at the graph, and notice how something is fishy about it. Are you using straight up ladder win rates? or some kind of mmr adjusted stat? Because if you're not, it doesn't mean anything at all except their mmr system is effective enough to keep people of the same capabilities (personal skill + race preference) together. I'm using the amount of players in grandmaster. If there are more tosses then terran in grandmaster then toss isn't that weak, or is it?
The correct answer is there should be an equal percentage of players for the race in grandmaster relative to the total population that plays that race. If the game were truely balanced that would be the expectation at least. So yes, if 40% of players play Protoss but 50% of GM is toss, you might be able to conclude toss being OP. Obviously many other factors and my numbers are just made up.
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Kill me. Please.
<-Protoss player =(
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On November 08 2011 07:55 pPingu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 07:51 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 07:47 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 07:32 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 07:27 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 07:23 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 07:20 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 06:27 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:24 iamke55 wrote:On November 08 2011 06:20 Snowbear wrote:
[quote]
We want? I showed you grandmaster ladder stats AND I showed the tournament page. Both indicate a balanced game. The only thing you guys use is "GSL CODE S is full of terrans". Meanwhile terran is getting nerfed and alot of people claim more nerfs. This is just sad imo.
When I show ladder stats I get the response: "ladder is not important, tournaments are".
When I show tournament stats I get the response: "but GSL code S is full of terrans".
Take a look at the tournament stat page, then take a look at the graph, and notice how something is fishy about it. All your grandmaster stats have accomplished is disprove the whole "more good players play Terran" argument. I never said that the high population of terrans in code S is due more good players playing terran. Code S is the only place with such a high population of terrans, and I think it's sad to conclude imbalance from that. Isn't it the GSL format that makes terrans stay in code S? I don't understand why so few people agree with this. You guys all conclude imbalance from code S GSL. Ladder and any other tournament show the opposite, but everybody seems to ignore this. The only thing I read is "MORE TERRAN NERFS" and "TERRAN IS IMBA". I have not seen any of these stats that show the opposite. The ladder is also a bad place to for stats, since it is build to give everyone a 50/50 win ratio. From my understanding Korea is a bad land for protoss and a grand land for terran. Korea is pretty much accepted that is the place with the highest level of play. Even pros like PainUser, EGDeMusliM and MVP have been quoted there are some parts of terran that are slightly over powered. Its a bummer if your having a rough time and your race may be nerfed, no one cared when I was getting rolled as a Protoss and they increased the time on Warpgate. The opposite is showed on sc2ranks (see ladder grandmaster stats) and on this page: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues You keep throwning those status up like that mean something. Most of the professional players do not agree with you. I am sorry I do not have a page full of stats that show this, but it is true. If you want, listen to Inside the Game from 10/25 where they discuss the EMP nerf. Both PainUser and EGDeMusliM, both terran players, have no issues and believe it is good for the game. Yes, and meanwhile demuslim and painuser are winning tournaments , or don't they? I think you just made my point for me. They are not winning tournments, but they seem to have no problem with the nerf. Also, demuslim is doing quite well recently. That doesn't prove your point. You don't even have a point. Vash, do you actually have a point in the whole topic?
His point is that GSL statistics are meaningless, and should not be used to guage balance now or ever.
Blizzard's stats "account for skill," which is a complex algorithm that takes into account factors of uneven skilled players playing one another. (For example you would expect MMA to always beat Sheth(or other pseudo pro) because he's simply better, not because of race. This is not accounted for in straight up GSL stats, amongst other things such as Korean dominance.)
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On November 08 2011 07:45 mrRoflpwn wrote:
to be fair- BW was NEVER balanced
Doesnt mean we should not try to makes this game balanced tho?
Edit: Wow that was some poor english right there, ill just leave it for you guys to figure it out.
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On November 08 2011 07:58 JustTray wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 07:55 pPingu wrote:On November 08 2011 07:51 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 07:47 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 07:32 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 07:27 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 07:23 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 07:20 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 06:27 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:24 iamke55 wrote:
[quote]
All your grandmaster stats have accomplished is disprove the whole "more good players play Terran" argument. I never said that the high population of terrans in code S is due more good players playing terran. Code S is the only place with such a high population of terrans, and I think it's sad to conclude imbalance from that. Isn't it the GSL format that makes terrans stay in code S? I don't understand why so few people agree with this. You guys all conclude imbalance from code S GSL. Ladder and any other tournament show the opposite, but everybody seems to ignore this. The only thing I read is "MORE TERRAN NERFS" and "TERRAN IS IMBA". I have not seen any of these stats that show the opposite. The ladder is also a bad place to for stats, since it is build to give everyone a 50/50 win ratio. From my understanding Korea is a bad land for protoss and a grand land for terran. Korea is pretty much accepted that is the place with the highest level of play. Even pros like PainUser, EGDeMusliM and MVP have been quoted there are some parts of terran that are slightly over powered. Its a bummer if your having a rough time and your race may be nerfed, no one cared when I was getting rolled as a Protoss and they increased the time on Warpgate. The opposite is showed on sc2ranks (see ladder grandmaster stats) and on this page: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues You keep throwning those status up like that mean something. Most of the professional players do not agree with you. I am sorry I do not have a page full of stats that show this, but it is true. If you want, listen to Inside the Game from 10/25 where they discuss the EMP nerf. Both PainUser and EGDeMusliM, both terran players, have no issues and believe it is good for the game. Yes, and meanwhile demuslim and painuser are winning tournaments , or don't they? I think you just made my point for me. They are not winning tournments, but they seem to have no problem with the nerf. Also, demuslim is doing quite well recently. That doesn't prove your point. You don't even have a point. Vash, do you actually have a point in the whole topic? His point is that GSL statistics are meaningless, and should not be used to guage balance now or ever. Blizzard's stats "account for skill," which is a complex algorithm that takes into account factors of uneven skilled players playing one another. (For example you would expect MMA to always beat Sheth(or other pseudo pro) because he's simply better, not because of race. This is not accounted for in straight up GSL stats, amongst other things such as Korean dominance.)
This is my point exactly
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On November 08 2011 07:55 pPingu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 07:51 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 07:47 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 07:32 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 07:27 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 07:23 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 07:20 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 06:27 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:24 iamke55 wrote:On November 08 2011 06:20 Snowbear wrote:
[quote]
We want? I showed you grandmaster ladder stats AND I showed the tournament page. Both indicate a balanced game. The only thing you guys use is "GSL CODE S is full of terrans". Meanwhile terran is getting nerfed and alot of people claim more nerfs. This is just sad imo.
When I show ladder stats I get the response: "ladder is not important, tournaments are".
When I show tournament stats I get the response: "but GSL code S is full of terrans".
Take a look at the tournament stat page, then take a look at the graph, and notice how something is fishy about it. All your grandmaster stats have accomplished is disprove the whole "more good players play Terran" argument. I never said that the high population of terrans in code S is due more good players playing terran. Code S is the only place with such a high population of terrans, and I think it's sad to conclude imbalance from that. Isn't it the GSL format that makes terrans stay in code S? I don't understand why so few people agree with this. You guys all conclude imbalance from code S GSL. Ladder and any other tournament show the opposite, but everybody seems to ignore this. The only thing I read is "MORE TERRAN NERFS" and "TERRAN IS IMBA". I have not seen any of these stats that show the opposite. The ladder is also a bad place to for stats, since it is build to give everyone a 50/50 win ratio. From my understanding Korea is a bad land for protoss and a grand land for terran. Korea is pretty much accepted that is the place with the highest level of play. Even pros like PainUser, EGDeMusliM and MVP have been quoted there are some parts of terran that are slightly over powered. Its a bummer if your having a rough time and your race may be nerfed, no one cared when I was getting rolled as a Protoss and they increased the time on Warpgate. The opposite is showed on sc2ranks (see ladder grandmaster stats) and on this page: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues You keep throwning those status up like that mean something. Most of the professional players do not agree with you. I am sorry I do not have a page full of stats that show this, but it is true. If you want, listen to Inside the Game from 10/25 where they discuss the EMP nerf. Both PainUser and EGDeMusliM, both terran players, have no issues and believe it is good for the game. Yes, and meanwhile demuslim and painuser are winning tournaments , or don't they? I think you just made my point for me. They are not winning tournments, but they seem to have no problem with the nerf. Also, demuslim is doing quite well recently. That doesn't prove your point. You don't even have a point. Vash, do you actually have a point in the whole topic?
I do...maybe read my previous posts instead of trolling.
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On November 08 2011 07:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 07:32 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 07:27 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 07:23 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 07:20 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 06:27 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:24 iamke55 wrote:On November 08 2011 06:20 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:16 Sabu113 wrote:On November 08 2011 04:33 VPVash wrote:
[quote]
Someone who is actually smart????!?!?!!?!?!? Is this real life?!?!??!??! @ Vash and Snow. Why don't you want to see a balanced game? We want? I showed you grandmaster ladder stats AND I showed the tournament page. Both indicate a balanced game. The only thing you guys use is "GSL CODE S is full of terrans". Meanwhile terran is getting nerfed and alot of people claim more nerfs. This is just sad imo. When I show ladder stats I get the response: "ladder is not important, tournaments are". When I show tournament stats I get the response: "but GSL code S is full of terrans". Take a look at the tournament stat page, then take a look at the graph, and notice how something is fishy about it. All your grandmaster stats have accomplished is disprove the whole "more good players play Terran" argument. I never said that the high population of terrans in code S is due more good players playing terran. Code S is the only place with such a high population of terrans, and I think it's sad to conclude imbalance from that. Isn't it the GSL format that makes terrans stay in code S? I don't understand why so few people agree with this. You guys all conclude imbalance from code S GSL. Ladder and any other tournament show the opposite, but everybody seems to ignore this. The only thing I read is "MORE TERRAN NERFS" and "TERRAN IS IMBA". I have not seen any of these stats that show the opposite. The ladder is also a bad place to for stats, since it is build to give everyone a 50/50 win ratio. From my understanding Korea is a bad land for protoss and a grand land for terran. Korea is pretty much accepted that is the place with the highest level of play. Even pros like PainUser, EGDeMusliM and MVP have been quoted there are some parts of terran that are slightly over powered. Its a bummer if your having a rough time and your race may be nerfed, no one cared when I was getting rolled as a Protoss and they increased the time on Warpgate. The opposite is showed on sc2ranks (see ladder grandmaster stats) and on this page: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues You keep throwning those status up like that mean something. Most of the professional players do not agree with you. I am sorry I do not have a page full of stats that show this, but it is true. If you want, listen to Inside the Game from 10/25 where they discuss the EMP nerf. Both PainUser and EGDeMusliM, both terran players, have no issues and believe it is good for the game. Yes, and meanwhile demuslim and painuser are winning tournaments , or don't they? I think you just made my point for me. They are not winning tournments, but they seem to have no problem with the nerf. Also, demuslim is doing quite well recently.
Is he? You're just buying into EG's hype machine. He hasn't posted any results for quite a while from what I can see on TLPD.
I doubt the ghost nerfs will do anything to reduce the korean terran winrate though. They're winning for generally very different reasons as far as I can tell.
I'm kind of surprised threads like this are allowed to go unmoderated for so long though - this is the biggest, sloppiest whinefest I've seen in quite a while. I haven't seen one good, analytical post here yet that aims to figure out why protoss is having such a hard time, least of all from the protoss players themselves. It's all "terran OP," which unfortunately is even a mentality that has spread to unrelated areas such as platinum/diamond on the EU server. It's just silly at this point.
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You guys can argue for 50 more pages but it won't make any difference because both sides have already made up their minds.
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EPT
