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With all the whining going on one would think P have 0% winrate.
You guys would have had a heart attack when oov was raping everyone left and right. IIRC TvZ hit an all time low during that era.
And P is getting buffed, I don´t know what you guys want, MUs winrates atm look pretty balanced, GSL format is being changed so we will see if the T dominance in Code S was just the format or if T is really OP at Code S level. But shit calm down guys, not every loss is due to balance, people make mistakes too(and pros are people too) I didn´t whine when Savior started losing.
And other than code S All races seem pretty even as far as tournament representation.As far as major tournaments lately:
IEM Guangzhou P got 2nd and 4th, Z got 1st and T 4th
IEM NY Zerg got 1st 2nd and 3rd with a P on 4th
on IPL P did badly, Z got 1st and 2nd T 3rd and 4th
MLG orlando P got 1st and 2nd , Zerg 4th and T 3rd
I mean, we can´t always have a perfect 1-1-1 (hehehe) race distribution on all tournaments and even then stuff overall its not as bad as people are making them out to be. What pisses me off is how little credit people are giving to the players themeselves and just look at the races.
I mean when P/Z do well we get people making up excuses as to why they ¨lucked out¨ or ¨were 10000x more skilled than everybody¨. When a T player does well its because of their race. Have some fucking respect for the players, stuff is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be, on ladder imbalances don't even fucking affect the majority of the players.
Stop excusing stuff and undermining the players. Of course people already made up their mind so I don't know why I am bothering is telling people to calm down. I'll just leave saying that if you want to find imbalances you will find them no matter what, hell even in BW if you look enough you will perceive some imbalance. BW is balanced because people accepted that it was balanced.Stop making excuses and just cheer for your favourite players
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On November 08 2011 07:37 VPVash wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 07:27 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 07:23 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 07:20 Plansix wrote:On November 08 2011 06:27 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:24 iamke55 wrote:On November 08 2011 06:20 Snowbear wrote:On November 08 2011 06:16 Sabu113 wrote:On November 08 2011 04:33 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 04:23 Snowbear wrote:[quote] They don't have a reason why they think terran is imba. Toss and zerg are dominating on ladder (you know, the place where all these whiners play), and tourneys (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues) get dominated by zergs. People just love to think that their race is UP and that other races are OP. This way they win because of their awesomeness, and lose because of imbalance  . The only place where we see terrans dominating is GSL CODE S, and that's the only argument they have. Don't expect some other argument because there is not a single one. After this emp nerf tvp lategame will be even a bigger joke. Someone who is actually smart????!?!?!!?!?!? Is this real life?!?!??!??! @ Vash and Snow. Why don't you want to see a balanced game? We want? I showed you grandmaster ladder stats AND I showed the tournament page. Both indicate a balanced game. The only thing you guys use is "GSL CODE S is full of terrans". Meanwhile terran is getting nerfed and alot of people claim more nerfs. This is just sad imo. When I show ladder stats I get the response: "ladder is not important, tournaments are". When I show tournament stats I get the response: "but GSL code S is full of terrans". Take a look at the tournament stat page, then take a look at the graph, and notice how something is fishy about it. All your grandmaster stats have accomplished is disprove the whole "more good players play Terran" argument. I never said that the high population of terrans in code S is due more good players playing terran. Code S is the only place with such a high population of terrans, and I think it's sad to conclude imbalance from that. Isn't it the GSL format that makes terrans stay in code S? I don't understand why so few people agree with this. You guys all conclude imbalance from code S GSL. Ladder and any other tournament show the opposite, but everybody seems to ignore this. The only thing I read is "MORE TERRAN NERFS" and "TERRAN IS IMBA". I have not seen any of these stats that show the opposite. The ladder is also a bad place to for stats, since it is build to give everyone a 50/50 win ratio. From my understanding Korea is a bad land for protoss and a grand land for terran. Korea is pretty much accepted that is the place with the highest level of play. Even pros like PainUser, EGDeMusliM and MVP have been quoted there are some parts of terran that are slightly over powered. Its a bummer if your having a rough time and your race may be nerfed, no one cared when I was getting rolled as a Protoss and they increased the time on Warpgate. The opposite is showed on sc2ranks (see ladder grandmaster stats) and on this page: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues You keep throwning those status up like that mean something. Most of the professional players do not agree with you. I am sorry I do not have a page full of stats that show this, but it is true. If you want, listen to Inside the Game from 10/25 where they discuss the EMP nerf. Both PainUser and EGDeMusliM, both terran players, have no issues and believe it is good for the game. Wait wait wait wait...didn't painuser get wrecked by HerO?????????????? Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 07:34 hytonight wrote:
well some terrans gotta lose...guess i fill that role in quite nicely Also you mean all Terrans other then Mvp,and MMA?
i am afraid that they will nerf terran into oblivion like they did with protoss after mc was wining a lot but maybe im a little bias so dont pay attention to me
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On November 08 2011 06:43 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 05:06 Silidons wrote:On November 08 2011 04:19 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 04:11 hellohilo wrote:
It's interesting that pro tosses (yuk yuk yuk) are having so much difficulty recently, especially with some of the recent metagame shifts that have occurred (mainly the use of immortals way more). I feel like it may take a new "innovator" to redefine the metagame and bring toss back to prominence, kind of like MC first did with his void ray play way back when in GSL3. Hello, please tell me why there having trouble "recently" I wanna know. This graph proves nothing at all. Look at tournaments "the only thing that matters" protoss players are winning and taking 2nd in almost every tournament. Please tell me what Terran does outside of Code S. Please???? I really wanna know why all of you think Terran is Imba...because you never been so wrong. Like the arguments on balance are literally a joke anymore. ok, i'll bite. well firstly, toss doesn't take 1st and 2nd in almost every international tournament, and secondly, the only reason people like huk and mc were at the finals was because they were way better than anyone else there. so am i allowed to make the same argument terran players do or is not not allowed? "the protoss were just better than everyone else there" But of course it's allowed ! It's also encouraged. Because the moment you realize that is the moment you realize that usually, it's the better player who wins ! Amazing, isn't it ? A new world to explore for imbacrypeople xD
^ This
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So basically the game was MORE balanced before the patches? Figures... Blizzard catering to silver league terrans crying about KA raping 200 marines 40 minutes into a game.
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On November 08 2011 11:00 CellTech wrote:
So basically the game was MORE balanced before the patches? Figures... Blizzard catering to silver league terrans crying about KA raping 200 marines 40 minutes into a game.
It was more that everyone was a lot worse, so little imbalances weren't as obvious.
FruitDealer was the best player in the world and Tester was the best protoss. It was a weird era in retrospect.
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On November 08 2011 11:11 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:00 CellTech wrote:
So basically the game was MORE balanced before the patches? Figures... Blizzard catering to silver league terrans crying about KA raping 200 marines 40 minutes into a game. It was more that everyone was a lot worse, so little imbalances weren't as obvious. FruitDealer was the best player in the world and Tester was the best protoss. It was a weird era in retrospect.
lol i like this post
and don't most people agree that KA was too strong?
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On November 08 2011 11:15 blagoonga123 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:11 Daralii wrote:On November 08 2011 11:00 CellTech wrote:
So basically the game was MORE balanced before the patches? Figures... Blizzard catering to silver league terrans crying about KA raping 200 marines 40 minutes into a game. It was more that everyone was a lot worse, so little imbalances weren't as obvious. FruitDealer was the best player in the world and Tester was the best protoss. It was a weird era in retrospect. lol i like this post and don't most people agree that KA was too strong?
Not only most people, but blizzard too thinks it was too strong.
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On November 08 2011 00:29 Holophonist wrote:
You're wrong. Almost everybody buying their product is a scrub. Also, at the highest levels of play, meta game counts for a lot more than how balanced the game is at the core. For instance, what if protoss players are doing poorly because playing protoss was easy as shit before people learned how to stop a lot of their gay stuff? Top players never had to innovate or think outside the box if every game could be won with either 4gate, 6gate or stargate play. This is true for terran as well except they're still the best because even if you figure out what they're doing, it's still hard to stop most of their junk.
The bottom line is even if zerg starts to win, it's only because we've been forced to explore every single aspect of every different tech given to us. Seriously, what unit/strat hasn't zerg tried? Whereas you really don't see a lot of different stuff from protoss becuase you simply... don't need to. Well maybe now you do. maybe now you have to get creative and get a mothership or even carriers! or get really sick with your warp prism multitasking.
This is a hilarious one. "It's because the Protoss players aren't creative enough, guys! They practice the same amount of time as their teammates but the coaches FORCE them to repeat the same three strategies over and over! If only they used the Warp Prism more!"
That argument is almost a year old now. Remember people telling Zerg players they had to experiment more with Nydus worms? Well they didn't, but what happend was Z got buffed, better maps and P got heavily nerfed. And now Z are doing awesome with pretty much the same strategies they've always used.
The fact that there are several pro teams in Korea with several pro players being coached 10-12 hours a day means that they have tried pretty much everything; remember it is their job to win games. If what you see in pro play isn't creative enough in your opinion, then guess what, it means the creative stuff just doesn't fucking work.
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On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better.
Edit: Oh yeah I forgot that one: The difference is actually not that huge guys! The scale of the Y-axis is exagerated!
um, this is all data (foreign and korean) I would immagine that the korean data is much worse lol.
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On November 08 2011 08:10 Quotidian wrote:
I haven't seen one good, analytical post here yet that aims to figure out why protoss is having such a hard time, least of all from the protoss players themselves. It's all "terran OP," which unfortunately is even a mentality that has spread to unrelated areas such as platinum/diamond on the EU server. It's just silly at this point.
You haven't read the thread then.
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On November 08 2011 08:59 windsupernova wrote:
IEM Guangzhou P got 2nd and 4th, Z got 1st and T 4th
IEM NY Zerg got 1st 2nd and 3rd with a P on 4th
on IPL P did badly, Z got 1st and 2nd T 3rd and 4th
MLG orlando P got 1st and 2nd , Zerg 4th and T 3rd
By posting something like this, you are effectively saying that only the Semi Finals and Finals of any tournament really mean anything and that the 90% of other games played don't count.
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On November 08 2011 08:59 windsupernova wrote:
With all the whining going on one would think P have 0% winrate.
You guys would have had a heart attack when oov was raping everyone left and right. IIRC TvZ hit an all time low during that era.
And P is getting buffed, I don´t know what you guys want, MUs winrates atm look pretty balanced, GSL format is being changed so we will see if the T dominance in Code S was just the format or if T is really OP at Code S level. But shit calm down guys, not every loss is due to balance, people make mistakes too(and pros are people too) I didn´t whine when Savior started losing.
And other than code S All races seem pretty even as far as tournament representation.As far as major tournaments lately:
IEM Guangzhou P got 2nd and 4th, Z got 1st and T 4th
IEM NY Zerg got 1st 2nd and 3rd with a P on 4th
on IPL P did badly, Z got 1st and 2nd T 3rd and 4th
MLG orlando P got 1st and 2nd , Zerg 4th and T 3rd
I mean, we can´t always have a perfect 1-1-1 (hehehe) race distribution on all tournaments and even then stuff overall its not as bad as people are making them out to be. What pisses me off is how little credit people are giving to the players themeselves and just look at the races.
I mean when P/Z do well we get people making up excuses as to why they ¨lucked out¨ or ¨were 10000x more skilled than everybody¨. When a T player does well its because of their race. Have some fucking respect for the players, stuff is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be, on ladder imbalances don't even fucking affect the majority of the players.
Stop excusing stuff and undermining the players. Of course people already made up their mind so I don't know why I am bothering is telling people to calm down. I'll just leave saying that if you want to find imbalances you will find them no matter what, hell even in BW if you look enough you will perceive some imbalance. BW is balanced because people accepted that it was balanced.Stop making excuses and just cheer for your favourite players
Well said, sir. Amen.
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On November 08 2011 11:15 blagoonga123 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:11 Daralii wrote:On November 08 2011 11:00 CellTech wrote:
So basically the game was MORE balanced before the patches? Figures... Blizzard catering to silver league terrans crying about KA raping 200 marines 40 minutes into a game. It was more that everyone was a lot worse, so little imbalances weren't as obvious. FruitDealer was the best player in the world and Tester was the best protoss. It was a weird era in retrospect. lol i like this post and don't most people agree that KA was too strong?
Most people think it was too strong (I do too, man would I abuse it if it was still in the game now ;D), but most people think they went overboard to just remove the upgrade altogether. Just nerf it to +15 or +10 energy or something and no more "insta imba storm".
Right now, when you warp in a templar to use for storm, he's vulnerable on the field for more than 40 seconds, which is a lot. No baracks or egg to protect him, and he doesn't benefit from the warpgame mechanics at all.
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On November 07 2011 04:31 andis35 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 04:30 Fusilero wrote:
Why is PvZ so bad for toss? I thought that with the NP nerf it'd be more even or perhaps in favour of toss perhaps someone more enlightened could explain this to me? infestor broodlord
Mothership Blink Stalker Voidray Archon
What is your point? I think PvZ is in a major upswing 'cause Protoss players are finally realising how good Warp Prisms and Stargate openings are. That, plus the fact that Immortals got a buff and Infestors got a nerf in the last patch, gives this matchup enough new timings and compositions to play around with, before Blizzard should even consider making a new change.
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On November 08 2011 11:15 blagoonga123 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:11 Daralii wrote:On November 08 2011 11:00 CellTech wrote:
So basically the game was MORE balanced before the patches? Figures... Blizzard catering to silver league terrans crying about KA raping 200 marines 40 minutes into a game. It was more that everyone was a lot worse, so little imbalances weren't as obvious. FruitDealer was the best player in the world and Tester was the best protoss. It was a weird era in retrospect. lol i like this post and don't most people agree that KA was too strong?
Actually Ive always wondered if this is true.
Before the KA nerf (removal) was announced Ive never even once seen someone call KA imbalanced. People were complaining about Protoss lategame, but I cant remember people complaining about KA specifically.
As soon as blizzard announced that they are going to remove KA people suddenly were like "uh yeah, I guess KA is imbalanced".
About the graphs:
What bothers me is that, besides june 2011, Terran had the highest winrate every single month. And even in june Zergs winrate was only higher by 0,1%. Obviously, in some months Terran was pretty close to 50%, but Terran is the only race that has never been below 50% and has basically had the highest winrate for a year.
If we think about it, even though Terran was rarely buffed and instead constantly nerfed Terran remains the highest winrate.
This might change drastically as soon as HOTS is released though, as new units will most likely change the game quite a bit.
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On November 08 2011 14:55 zanmat0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 00:29 Holophonist wrote:
You're wrong. Almost everybody buying their product is a scrub. Also, at the highest levels of play, meta game counts for a lot more than how balanced the game is at the core. For instance, what if protoss players are doing poorly because playing protoss was easy as shit before people learned how to stop a lot of their gay stuff? Top players never had to innovate or think outside the box if every game could be won with either 4gate, 6gate or stargate play. This is true for terran as well except they're still the best because even if you figure out what they're doing, it's still hard to stop most of their junk.
The bottom line is even if zerg starts to win, it's only because we've been forced to explore every single aspect of every different tech given to us. Seriously, what unit/strat hasn't zerg tried? Whereas you really don't see a lot of different stuff from protoss becuase you simply... don't need to. Well maybe now you do. maybe now you have to get creative and get a mothership or even carriers! or get really sick with your warp prism multitasking.
This is a hilarious one. "It's because the Protoss players aren't creative enough, guys! They practice the same amount of time as their teammates but the coaches FORCE them to repeat the same three strategies over and over! If only they used the Warp Prism more!" That argument is almost a year old now. Remember people telling Zerg players they had to experiment more with Nydus worms? Well they didn't, but what happend was Z got buffed, better maps and P got heavily nerfed. And now Z are doing awesome with pretty much the same strategies they've always used. The fact that there are several pro teams in Korea with several pro players being coached 10-12 hours a day means that they have tried pretty much everything; remember it is their job to win games. If what you see in pro play isn't creative enough in your opinion, then guess what, it means the creative stuff just doesn't fucking work.
You didn't actually say anything at all.... you sound like an idiot to be honest.
Nydus isn't and won't ever be good with things the way they are now. And you do see people trying it.
As for your last paragraph... it seriously does anger me when people are completely incapable of understanding BASIC ideas, no matter how many times I try to hand feed it to you people like you're fucking babies. I'm not saying any professional starcraft player (protoss or not) is more or less creative than any other person on the planet.
What I'm saying is if you spend your time doing one thing, you're not doing another, RIGHT? So you're necessarily going to be worse at things other than predetermined timing attacks if you primarily rely on on them to win most of your games(or at least more than other races. Or at least more than zerg), RIGHT? Seriously, this shouldn't be hard.
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On November 08 2011 09:12 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 06:43 MrCon wrote:On November 08 2011 05:06 Silidons wrote:On November 08 2011 04:19 VPVash wrote:On November 08 2011 04:11 hellohilo wrote:
It's interesting that pro tosses (yuk yuk yuk) are having so much difficulty recently, especially with some of the recent metagame shifts that have occurred (mainly the use of immortals way more). I feel like it may take a new "innovator" to redefine the metagame and bring toss back to prominence, kind of like MC first did with his void ray play way back when in GSL3. Hello, please tell me why there having trouble "recently" I wanna know. This graph proves nothing at all. Look at tournaments "the only thing that matters" protoss players are winning and taking 2nd in almost every tournament. Please tell me what Terran does outside of Code S. Please???? I really wanna know why all of you think Terran is Imba...because you never been so wrong. Like the arguments on balance are literally a joke anymore. ok, i'll bite. well firstly, toss doesn't take 1st and 2nd in almost every international tournament, and secondly, the only reason people like huk and mc were at the finals was because they were way better than anyone else there. so am i allowed to make the same argument terran players do or is not not allowed? "the protoss were just better than everyone else there" But of course it's allowed ! It's also encouraged. Because the moment you realize that is the moment you realize that usually, it's the better player who wins ! Amazing, isn't it ? A new world to explore for imbacrypeople xD ^ This
rofl but many people agree that a significant amount of terrans in code s dont belong there
also how was KA imba if toss still had <50% w:l
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On November 08 2011 17:05 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 14:55 zanmat0 wrote:On November 08 2011 00:29 Holophonist wrote:
You're wrong. Almost everybody buying their product is a scrub. Also, at the highest levels of play, meta game counts for a lot more than how balanced the game is at the core. For instance, what if protoss players are doing poorly because playing protoss was easy as shit before people learned how to stop a lot of their gay stuff? Top players never had to innovate or think outside the box if every game could be won with either 4gate, 6gate or stargate play. This is true for terran as well except they're still the best because even if you figure out what they're doing, it's still hard to stop most of their junk.
The bottom line is even if zerg starts to win, it's only because we've been forced to explore every single aspect of every different tech given to us. Seriously, what unit/strat hasn't zerg tried? Whereas you really don't see a lot of different stuff from protoss becuase you simply... don't need to. Well maybe now you do. maybe now you have to get creative and get a mothership or even carriers! or get really sick with your warp prism multitasking.
This is a hilarious one. "It's because the Protoss players aren't creative enough, guys! They practice the same amount of time as their teammates but the coaches FORCE them to repeat the same three strategies over and over! If only they used the Warp Prism more!" That argument is almost a year old now. Remember people telling Zerg players they had to experiment more with Nydus worms? Well they didn't, but what happend was Z got buffed, better maps and P got heavily nerfed. And now Z are doing awesome with pretty much the same strategies they've always used. The fact that there are several pro teams in Korea with several pro players being coached 10-12 hours a day means that they have tried pretty much everything; remember it is their job to win games. If what you see in pro play isn't creative enough in your opinion, then guess what, it means the creative stuff just doesn't fucking work. You didn't actually say anything at all.... you sound like an idiot to be honest. Nydus isn't and won't ever be good with things the way they are now. And you do see people trying it. As for your last paragraph... it seriously does anger me when people are completely incapable of understanding BASIC ideas, no matter how many times I try to hand feed it to you people like you're fucking babies. I'm not saying any professional starcraft player (protoss or not) is more or less creative than any other person on the planet. What I'm saying is if you spend your time doing one thing, you're not doing another, RIGHT? So you're necessarily going to be worse at things other than predetermined timing attacks if you primarily rely on on them to win most of your games(or at least more than other races. Or at least more than zerg), RIGHT? Seriously, this shouldn't be hard.
Or people have tried both other things and timing attacks, and figured out that timing attacks were way more efficient than these other things, the same way that timing attacks as zerg are easily defended unless completely unscouted, so people don't do them.
Currently the very lategame PvZ is largely in favor of Zerg. Zerg's deathball is making Protoss deathball litterally a laughing stock (HuK vs Stephano, Mana vs Stephano, Coca vs Sage, etc...). Protoss players cannot even tell how to theoretically beat that army (broodlords, corruptors, infestors + whatever ground units you can fill your supply with). What zergs need to understand when they throw at us dream compositions like "pure void rays, mothership, mass archons, 3/3 carriers" (which we're not even sure it would work, unless some archon toilet garbage) is that we usually have less money than them for one, we must keep producing units all game long for two, those units are not "tradable", when we have a max, we cannot afford to just sacrifice it and make another, and even if we could, it would not be fast enough. So when the zerg doomcloud comes, you have your slowly built-up, now useless, maxed army designed to deal with strong midgame-ish zerg compositions that the Zerg players sacrifies at you since the 13:00 minute mark where he was at 200/200 while you were at your 120/200.
No wonder Protoss are making timing attacks.
I mean I could be wrong here, but this is honestly how a "macro game" against zerg unfolds in my eyes in recent pro games. Zerg wears the daddy pants in that matchup, UNLESS you do timing attacks, either very strong ones, borderline all ins, or very weird ones, borderline cheesy.
You're going to reply that "Zerg is the reactive race, Protoss can just make whatever he wants, blablabla", and then blind spire and mass mutas anyway, infestor timing, or mass roaches if we want a third. So Protoss makes an ungodly amount of units, with some upgrades and throw everything he's got at you, to at least force you to react with what you have right now, not what monstrous army you plan to have with your 80 drones @ 10 minutes economy. Aka the so called Protoss timing attacks.
Still, I'm sure people are trying other things, because they're not winning. I'm not actually too worried about Protoss players, obviously they are, or will be, very skilled, because their race is hard to win with. It can only be good for Aiur's future 
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On November 08 2011 08:59 windsupernova wrote:
Stop excusing stuff and undermining the players. Of course people already made up their mind so I don't know why I am bothering is telling people to calm down. I'll just leave saying that if you want to find imbalances you will find them no matter what, hell even in BW if you look enough you will perceive some imbalance. BW is balanced because people accepted that it was balanced.Stop making excuses and just cheer for your favourite players
The problem is, in BW all the players are/were actually amazingly good.
In GSL we see mediocre terrans winning all the time, despite making terrible mistakes. This is proven by the fact that the few good terrans (that are not more in numbers than good zergs or protoss) dominate the larger group of mediocre terrans all the time in mirror match-ups. With protoss and zerg, the few mirrors that we see are usually close, tense fights - since the worse zergs/protoss got swept away already.
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there is always something I found funny in these imbalance issues, and that is if u have a problem with a race why don tu switch? Ur skillz ARE transferrable. There problem solved! According blizzard, the game is balanced on Bnet. I dont see more terrans winning tournaments than any other race. So maybe instead of crying of imbalance, it's time to do something about it??
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EPT
