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On October 30 2011 14:30 Jragon wrote:
What? I thought the Kespa SC2 would be with separate players, not the BW players playing both.
This is sad news. I am not an SC2 anti-fan; before its release I was hoping it would surpass BW as a worthy successor. But it has not. As it stands, BW is the superior game. It's gameplay has more depth, it's strategy more intricacies, it is better balanced, and, for the educated observer, it is more entertaining.
Maybe this will change with the expansions, but SC2 does not deserve this, not at this cost. BW survived and grew into an esport on its own merits. SC2 is the triumph of corporate marketing dollars and, relatively, style over substance. Originally I was fine with SC2 running alongside the Proleague, trusting BW to gain converts with increased exposure, but to take the attention and talents of BW's best players, creators of beautiful games, is not fine. The misconception that newer means better is destroying something wonderful.
well said.
newer does not equal better. it's really dumbfounding how so many people don't understand this simple logical fallacy. but then, i look at the tea party and republicans, then it all makes sense. good thing there still exist common sense people like Jragon, even if he/she may be part of a minority. makes me have at least some speck of faith in humanity. lolz
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On October 30 2011 15:25 hmmm... wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 14:30 Jragon wrote:
What? I thought the Kespa SC2 would be with separate players, not the BW players playing both.
This is sad news. I am not an SC2 anti-fan; before its release I was hoping it would surpass BW as a worthy successor. But it has not. As it stands, BW is the superior game. It's gameplay has more depth, it's strategy more intricacies, it is better balanced, and, for the educated observer, it is more entertaining.
Maybe this will change with the expansions, but SC2 does not deserve this, not at this cost. BW survived and grew into an esport on its own merits. SC2 is the triumph of corporate marketing dollars and, relatively, style over substance. Originally I was fine with SC2 running alongside the Proleague, trusting BW to gain converts with increased exposure, but to take the attention and talents of BW's best players, creators of beautiful games, is not fine. The misconception that newer means better is destroying something wonderful. well said. newer does not equal better. it's really dumbfounding how so many people don't understand this simple logical fallacy. but then, i look at the tea party and republicans, then it all makes sense. good thing there still exist common sense people like Jragon, even if he/she may be part of a minority. makes me have at least some speck of faith in humanity. lolz
Posts like yours make me lose faith in humanity.
To the point I do hope that for the most part the "A team" bw players still play bw and maybe B teamers play. I don't think all of them will jump ship (at least I hope tbh while it would be cool I still enjoy watching bw to)
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On October 30 2011 11:37 ninini wrote:
Seriously, what's the point of the existing BW players playing SC2? Isn't it better if the teams started SC2 branches instead, and then the ppl who wanted to could switch without having to change teams. To me this sounds like KESPA and/or the teams have stopped believing in BW, which is strange since half of the fans want nothing to do with SC2. So if they stopped BW altogether, they would lose 50% of their fanbase. Sure, they would get some more fans, but right now BW have the larger fanbase, so in the end they would lose more than they gained, especially since they could invest in both games.
While I agree with most of what you said. I believe KESPA is smart and realizes that BW has a finite amount of time left to stay relevant and they are just making sure the transition to SC2 comes as smoothly as possible. I want to see BW live on more but how things are going with SC2, I think BW's time is getting shorter. The fans of BW will have no choice than to switch over and learn to like and love SC2. They might lose some fans but they would gain I think just as many.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
This would all be so much easier if SCII was a better game. It doesn't even have LAN, right?
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This is pretty sad. I was having a good day until I saw this. I'm not gonna skim through 107 pages of people arguing, does anyone know how Korean fans have reacted?
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On October 30 2011 15:41 overt wrote:
This is pretty sad. I was having a good day until I saw this. I'm not gonna skim through 107 pages of people arguing, does anyone know how Korean fans have reacted?
The same way TL did. SC2 vs BW.
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On October 30 2011 15:25 hmmm... wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 14:30 Jragon wrote:
What? I thought the Kespa SC2 would be with separate players, not the BW players playing both.
This is sad news. I am not an SC2 anti-fan; before its release I was hoping it would surpass BW as a worthy successor. But it has not. As it stands, BW is the superior game. It's gameplay has more depth, it's strategy more intricacies, it is better balanced, and, for the educated observer, it is more entertaining.
Maybe this will change with the expansions, but SC2 does not deserve this, not at this cost. BW survived and grew into an esport on its own merits. SC2 is the triumph of corporate marketing dollars and, relatively, style over substance. Originally I was fine with SC2 running alongside the Proleague, trusting BW to gain converts with increased exposure, but to take the attention and talents of BW's best players, creators of beautiful games, is not fine. The misconception that newer means better is destroying something wonderful. well said. newer does not equal better. it's really dumbfounding how so many people don't understand this simple logical fallacy. but then, i look at the tea party and republicans, then it all makes sense. good thing there still exist common sense people like Jragon, even if he/she may be part of a minority. makes me have at least some speck of faith in humanity. lolz
While i have to agree with BW being the superior game to SC2 (as in its current state), it is unlikely that BW can live for more than 3 years from now. Esport lives on because of its fans, as you can see, there are alot more people transitioning to sc2 as well as the massive influx of new players than people start playing BW. Hence, sponsors will not be interested in supporting BW anymore.
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On October 30 2011 15:35 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 11:37 ninini wrote:
Seriously, what's the point of the existing BW players playing SC2? Isn't it better if the teams started SC2 branches instead, and then the ppl who wanted to could switch without having to change teams. To me this sounds like KESPA and/or the teams have stopped believing in BW, which is strange since half of the fans want nothing to do with SC2. So if they stopped BW altogether, they would lose 50% of their fanbase. Sure, they would get some more fans, but right now BW have the larger fanbase, so in the end they would lose more than they gained, especially since they could invest in both games. While I agree with most of what you said. I believe KESPA is smart and realizes that BW has a finite amount of time left to stay relevant and they are just making sure the transition to SC2 comes as smoothly as possible. I want to see BW live on more but how things are going with SC2, I think BW's time is getting shorter. The fans of BW will have no choice than to switch over and learn to like and love SC2. They might lose some fans but they would gain I think just as many.
SC2 will never get as big as BW was. If there comes a time when ppl think BW isn't relevant, then a transition to SC2 won't do any good. The scene would eventually implode because there will not be enough fans to support the salaries that the BW players are used to. MBC withdrew from the scene probably because they feared BW's future and because they didn't see a future in SC2. Because MBC Game was just a subsidiary they was able to drop out from the esports scene without any regrets. OGN and KESPA can't do that though. If they think that BW will not hold for much longer, they will do anything to make a transition to SC2 work. I don't think it will though. I think the only right thing they can do is to start a new SC2 league and keep it separate from the BW league. Trying to convert the BW scene into a SC2 scene will not work, because they won't have the fanbase to back it up.
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On October 30 2011 15:25 hmmm... wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 14:30 Jragon wrote:
What? I thought the Kespa SC2 would be with separate players, not the BW players playing both.
This is sad news. I am not an SC2 anti-fan; before its release I was hoping it would surpass BW as a worthy successor. But it has not. As it stands, BW is the superior game. It's gameplay has more depth, it's strategy more intricacies, it is better balanced, and, for the educated observer, it is more entertaining.
Maybe this will change with the expansions, but SC2 does not deserve this, not at this cost. BW survived and grew into an esport on its own merits. SC2 is the triumph of corporate marketing dollars and, relatively, style over substance. Originally I was fine with SC2 running alongside the Proleague, trusting BW to gain converts with increased exposure, but to take the attention and talents of BW's best players, creators of beautiful games, is not fine. The misconception that newer means better is destroying something wonderful. well said. newer does not equal better. it's really dumbfounding how so many people don't understand this simple logical fallacy. but then, i look at the tea party and republicans, then it all makes sense. good thing there still exist common sense people like Jragon, even if he/she may be part of a minority. makes me have at least some speck of faith in humanity. lolz
It's dumbfounding to me that you guys expected a game to be released and polished in the same way another game was for 10 years..
BW was constantly tweaked, and the balance was constantly shifting, expecting SC2 to be super balanced and deep right out of the gates is just unrealistic because SC2 is not SC:BW. If you want to play brood war, you play brood war... the way to expand something is to move away and try new things.
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On October 30 2011 10:24 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 09:44 VPCursed wrote:On October 30 2011 09:42 JustQuitWarcraftIII wrote:On October 30 2011 09:28 HappyChris wrote:
Starcraft 2 is another game then Broodwar. I allways say prove youself first. So until the BW players start winning something I wont really pay them much attention. MC = former BW player Mvp = former BW player Nestea = fomer BW player MMA = former BW player Bomber = former BW player Idra = fomer BW player Where these non fomer-BW players who are winning? ? are u fucking serious? THORZAIN NANIWA STEPHANO lol, don't bother with these people. When Stephano became noticeable and gained notoriety, the haters said that he hadn't won anything of note yet. "Let's see him win a big tournament during the next... year or so, let's see him win against Koreans." When Stephano won IPL3 two weeks later, the haters said it was a fluke and winning against MMA was a fluke and MMA was tired.Also, those Koreans weren't the best Koreans. "Winning only one tournament doesn't prove anything. He won't win anything again. Winning against those Koreans doesn't prove anything." When Stephano won ESCW a week after that, the haters said the opponents he beat were weak. Only Mana. Only MarineKingPrime. "MarineKingPrime didn't play his best. This doesn't prove anything. He has to win a GSL." Fuck it, I'm sick and tired of people moving the goalposts just to keep their fucking precious Koreans on a pedestal and refuse a non-Korean the same kind of respect. Jesus fucking Christ, you people will never be happy. Stephano could win a GSL and you would find something to bitch about, to downplay, to attempt and discredit him, make his victory mean less.Sick and tired of it.
Intense post! I agree with it but maybe not so passionately! :D
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On October 30 2011 15:38 Fenrax wrote:
This would all be so much easier if SCII was a better game. It doesn't even have LAN, right?
the best thing that can happen to SC2 is is KESPA picks up SC2 for proleague, the first match Bnet crashes, and KESPA drops SC2 from proleague and blizzard puts in LAN to try to get them back.
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On October 30 2011 16:38 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 15:38 Fenrax wrote:
This would all be so much easier if SCII was a better game. It doesn't even have LAN, right? the best thing that can happen to SC2 is is KESPA picks up SC2 for proleague, the first match Bnet crashes, and KESPA drops SC2 from proleague and blizzard puts in LAN to try to get them back.
Not plausible lol what a gullible insight.
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On October 30 2011 16:45 teslar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 16:38 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 30 2011 15:38 Fenrax wrote:
This would all be so much easier if SCII was a better game. It doesn't even have LAN, right? the best thing that can happen to SC2 is is KESPA picks up SC2 for proleague, the first match Bnet crashes, and KESPA drops SC2 from proleague and blizzard puts in LAN to try to get them back. Not plausible lol what a gullible insight.
i didn't say it WOULD happen. just that the best thing that COULD happen  it's pretty much not going to happen though. i just want blizzard to be shamed into putting in LAN so badly. a few GSL finals have been messed up because of lag/drops already.
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Switzerland1365 Posts
On October 30 2011 16:38 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 15:38 Fenrax wrote:
This would all be so much easier if SCII was a better game. It doesn't even have LAN, right? the best thing that can happen to SC2 is is KESPA picks up SC2 for proleague, the first match Bnet crashes, and KESPA drops SC2 from proleague and blizzard puts in LAN to try to get them back.
They will never include lan. However, they talked about an option to have special servers for tournaments (Servers that are physically where the tournament is or something like that).
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Switzerland1365 Posts
On October 30 2011 11:02 crazyweasel wrote:
what we can all say is that BW players have an advantage over the others when they pick the game because of its deep similarities as an RTS, as mentionned they all get past master really quick. although, these players had to pick up BW and yet became good with alot of practice. this is why players with no rts background are still making great (huk/stephano) as for the ones from WC3, they have to unlearn stuff because wc3 wasnt the same at-all. BW definately is closer to sc2 than wc3, tho any players who is consitent in training and has talent and motivation can reach the top players. as for those who claim BW players will do better than the others because BW was harder and was said to require more skills (i disagree) be cause sc2 is more noobfriendly(group controls, keybinds, auto gather etc.) theyll soon find out that it is as hard to be on top the game because the game speed is faster. sc2 is even more competitive since the gap between very good and perfect play is shorter - alot of players can play very good but still few can play perfectly. i dont think we've yet to see perfect play from anybody who is outhere yet.
Just as a sidenote, Stephano has rts experience, he was a WC3 player (since a very young age).
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On October 30 2011 16:38 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 15:38 Fenrax wrote:
This would all be so much easier if SCII was a better game. It doesn't even have LAN, right? the best thing that can happen to SC2 is is KESPA picks up SC2 for proleague, the first match Bnet crashes, and KESPA drops SC2 from proleague and blizzard puts in LAN to try to get them back.
pfft keep dreamin son.
And btw, for each day i dont know who said these quotes, a little bit of me dies
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On October 30 2011 15:44 brachester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 15:25 hmmm... wrote:On October 30 2011 14:30 Jragon wrote:
What? I thought the Kespa SC2 would be with separate players, not the BW players playing both.
This is sad news. I am not an SC2 anti-fan; before its release I was hoping it would surpass BW as a worthy successor. But it has not. As it stands, BW is the superior game. It's gameplay has more depth, it's strategy more intricacies, it is better balanced, and, for the educated observer, it is more entertaining.
Maybe this will change with the expansions, but SC2 does not deserve this, not at this cost. BW survived and grew into an esport on its own merits. SC2 is the triumph of corporate marketing dollars and, relatively, style over substance. Originally I was fine with SC2 running alongside the Proleague, trusting BW to gain converts with increased exposure, but to take the attention and talents of BW's best players, creators of beautiful games, is not fine. The misconception that newer means better is destroying something wonderful. well said. newer does not equal better. it's really dumbfounding how so many people don't understand this simple logical fallacy. but then, i look at the tea party and republicans, then it all makes sense. good thing there still exist common sense people like Jragon, even if he/she may be part of a minority. makes me have at least some speck of faith in humanity. lolz While i have to agree with BW being the superior game to SC2 (as in its current state), it is unlikely that BW can live for more than 3 years from now. Esport lives on because of its fans, as you can see, there are alot more people transitioning to sc2 as well as the massive influx of new players than people start playing BW. Hence, sponsors will not be interested in supporting BW anymore.
I know, and I'm bemoaning their reasoning
On October 30 2011 16:23 ptrpb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 15:25 hmmm... wrote:On October 30 2011 14:30 Jragon wrote:
What? I thought the Kespa SC2 would be with separate players, not the BW players playing both.
This is sad news. I am not an SC2 anti-fan; before its release I was hoping it would surpass BW as a worthy successor. But it has not. As it stands, BW is the superior game. It's gameplay has more depth, it's strategy more intricacies, it is better balanced, and, for the educated observer, it is more entertaining.
Maybe this will change with the expansions, but SC2 does not deserve this, not at this cost. BW survived and grew into an esport on its own merits. SC2 is the triumph of corporate marketing dollars and, relatively, style over substance. Originally I was fine with SC2 running alongside the Proleague, trusting BW to gain converts with increased exposure, but to take the attention and talents of BW's best players, creators of beautiful games, is not fine. The misconception that newer means better is destroying something wonderful. well said. newer does not equal better. it's really dumbfounding how so many people don't understand this simple logical fallacy. but then, i look at the tea party and republicans, then it all makes sense. good thing there still exist common sense people like Jragon, even if he/she may be part of a minority. makes me have at least some speck of faith in humanity. lolz It's dumbfounding to me that you guys expected a game to be released and polished in the same way another game was for 10 years.. BW was constantly tweaked, and the balance was constantly shifting, expecting SC2 to be super balanced and deep right out of the gates is just unrealistic because SC2 is not SC:BW. If you want to play brood war, you play brood war... the way to expand something is to move away and try new things.
Acknowledged to a degree, although in my opinion SC2's design direction is fundamentally flawed with its removal of a number of positional elements (lurker, high-ground mechanic, etc.) as covered in a number of other threads. Each to their own most definitely though, but this is not each to their own, this is SC2 being forced into BW's territory and taking BW's players.
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Give SC2 a chance, it can be pretty exciting. Everytime I see a bunch of Colossus killing stuff or marauders kiting zealots I scream like a little girl. Massing roaches is quite fun to watch as well.
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On October 30 2011 17:12 Dante08 wrote:
Give SC2 a chance, it can be pretty exciting. Everytime I see a bunch of Colossus killing stuff or marauders kiting zealots I scream like a little girl. Massing roaches is quite fun to watch as well.
Did you just name the three most boring units in SC2 as a selling point, or was this sarcasm that flew right over my head?
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On October 30 2011 17:12 Dante08 wrote:
Give SC2 a chance, it can be pretty exciting. Everytime I see a bunch of Colossus killing stuff or marauders kiting zealots I scream like a little girl. Massing roaches is quite fun to watch as well.
That's like the only situation where I don't scream like a little girl. SC2 has many things that will eventually match up to Brood War (the evolution of TvT, TvZ etc over the past year, OL Baneling drops). But Colosus and Marauder kiting are not one of them.
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EPT
