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On October 30 2011 07:23 revy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 05:42 roymarthyup wrote:
the bw pro with the most promise in SC2 is jaedong. Jaedong still has all of his mechanics and is injury free and is even better than he was at any time because jaedong is still owning the young bloods in bw that should be owning him but it isnt happening.
Also i feel sc2 zerg played right is nigh unstoppable against terran. Give it a few more months and the ZvT metagame will be completely figured out. Lategame ghosts will be countered by mass overseers (to stop them from getting sniped) + mass lings and a dozen roaches + a few banelings /infestors/broodlords/ultras. By the time terran even gets to the point to use ghosts, against a good zerg the zerg should be massively ahead in econ to field the perfect counter. nestea just didnt know how to react properly in that shakuras game, but once zergs have more lategame experience against top terrans soon it will be figured out how to absolutely crush ghosts and terran will be left with nothing else and zerg will reign supreme. Of course this is all just my theory, so whatever, but i believe zerg truly is the strongest race and terran is only reigning right now because the metagame hasnt been figured out
regardless, even if my theory is wrong and zerg is not overpowered compared to terran and is just equal compared to terran, still my point was simply that jaedong is the bw pro with the most promise because IMO zerg is not a weak race in sc2. so whether or not zerg is overpowered or equal to terran, whatever, i think its one of those possibilities that is the truth and regardless jaedong will reign supreme in either possibility
Flash on the other hand has way too much injury and will soon retire. His injuries are growing way worse every year and and its such a shame that a great RTS mind has to go out to injury. Very sad for flash indeed. It doesn't really seem like you know much about the BW scene. JD is in the worst spot he's been in years. By no means is he down and out but his ZvZ and ZvP aren't exactly setting the world on fire. Also, Flash started complaining about his wrist towards the end of last year maybe? Kind of tough to say that his injuries are growing worse every year when he's only been injured for one year. Also, he's just had successful surgery, again not to say beyond a reasonable doubt he'll be fine but you can say it with more certainty than he'll soon retire. Assuming they all switch (big assumption), if Flash's wrist is fine he'll most likely be the best of the batch. The advantage he holds against all other BW players is his decision making and that will transfer perfectly to SC2. For me it is difficult to rank all the other BW players if they were to switch, but so long as Flash's body holds out I know he'll be the best.
I mean you can go by their strength and how well they translate.
I would guess some of the abilities could translate like this (other people might think otherwise)
Macro->translates badly, because it's easy enough that anybody should be able to execute it nearly perfect soon.
Multitasking->translates very well (e.G. drop play)
Good at casting spells->translates bad, because of smartcasting
Decision making-> translates well
Predicting opponents decisions-> translates well
Now you could look at the BW players strength and then try to estimate which could be better after a switch, however additional factors will surely also come into play.
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On October 30 2011 07:27 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 07:06 Razuik wrote:On October 30 2011 06:39 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On October 30 2011 02:18 chatuka wrote:
I think MMA could compete if he trains hard enough and eats healthy food. brain food no toxic non-sense
top SC2 players could go like this.
1. Flash (terran)
2. Jaedong? (Zerg)
3. Jangbi(Protoss)
4. Bisu (Protoss)
5. MMA?(terran)
6 Fantasy(Terran)
7. MVP(terran)
8. zero(zerg)
9. Huk(Protoss)
10. MC(Protoss)
Shuttle, Calm, Hyuk are probably top 20
MKP, Ryung, Puzzle, Rainbow are top 50.
If Effort gets back in the money game.. he could be a dark horse.
Stephano is also a wild card. he could be top five he decides SC2 as a career.
Nestea would be probably around top 15. Am I being trolled? Let's be realistic here. MVP would be extremely lucky to be in the top 50 if and when the pro BW teams switch. Stephano top 5? What am I seeing? O_o MVP sub-top 50? You're overestimating how much better BW pros are going to be... to extremes lol. Am I being trolled? Sure he could be in top 30 or top 20. But MVP couldn't compete with the top in anything in BW. He was far behind players like Jaedong, Zero, Bisu, Flash, Stork, Hydra, Effort, Snow, Calm, Fantasy etc etc in ALL aspects of the game: micro, macro, game sense, timing, preparation. I see no reason that he should remain in the top if these players decide to switch. And I whole heartedly hope they don't switch!
I don't understand this logic at all.. That was in their game like two years ago.. How can you take that information, apply it two years later to a different game and expect the exact same outcome?
I remember hearing Artosis saying in the beginning of SC2 "Oh MvP? He's a cheesy noob. I don't expect him going anywhere". And he didn't.
Some months later though he started improving drastically, and is now the most solid, macro based terran in SC2.
You can change a lot in two years.
What if MVP had stayed in the BW scene? Maybe he had exploded there as well, winning everything and being the best of the best. Who knows? You can't really compare anyway.
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On October 30 2011 07:37 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 07:27 Elroi wrote:On October 30 2011 07:06 Razuik wrote:On October 30 2011 06:39 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On October 30 2011 02:18 chatuka wrote:
I think MMA could compete if he trains hard enough and eats healthy food. brain food no toxic non-sense
top SC2 players could go like this.
1. Flash (terran)
2. Jaedong? (Zerg)
3. Jangbi(Protoss)
4. Bisu (Protoss)
5. MMA?(terran)
6 Fantasy(Terran)
7. MVP(terran)
8. zero(zerg)
9. Huk(Protoss)
10. MC(Protoss)
Shuttle, Calm, Hyuk are probably top 20
MKP, Ryung, Puzzle, Rainbow are top 50.
If Effort gets back in the money game.. he could be a dark horse.
Stephano is also a wild card. he could be top five he decides SC2 as a career.
Nestea would be probably around top 15. Am I being trolled? Let's be realistic here. MVP would be extremely lucky to be in the top 50 if and when the pro BW teams switch. Stephano top 5? What am I seeing? O_o MVP sub-top 50? You're overestimating how much better BW pros are going to be... to extremes lol. Am I being trolled? Sure he could be in top 30 or top 20. But MVP couldn't compete with the top in anything in BW. He was far behind players like Jaedong, Zero, Bisu, Flash, Stork, Hydra, Effort, Snow, Calm, Fantasy etc etc in ALL aspects of the game: micro, macro, game sense, timing, preparation. I see no reason that he should remain in the top if these players decide to switch. And I whole heartedly hope they don't switch! I don't understand this logic at all.. That was in their game like two years ago.. How can you take that information, apply it two years later to a different game and expect the exact same outcome? I remember hearing Artosis saying in the beginning of SC2 "Oh MvP? He's a cheesy noob. I don't expect him going anywhere". And he didn't. Some months later though he started improving drastically, and is now the most solid, macro based terran in SC2. You can change a lot in two years. What if MVP had stayed in the BW scene? Maybe he had exploded there as well, winning everything and being the best of the best. Who knows? You can't really compare anyway.
Hmm, MVP wasn't all that cheesy in BW. He was just dull, hit his peak and his career wasn't going anywhere. Comparable to someone like Clide in SC2.
I also don't remember Artosis saying that. I do remember that a lot of people already considered MVP to be the best (SC2) player around the time of GSL Open 3, when he was struggling to break into RO8.
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Australia9933 Posts
On October 30 2011 02:18 chatuka wrote:
I think MMA could compete if he trains hard enough and eats healthy food. brain food no toxic non-sense
top SC2 players could go like this.
1. Flash (terran)
2. Jaedong? (Zerg)
3. Jangbi(Protoss)
4. Bisu (Protoss)
5. MMA?(terran)
6 Fantasy(Terran)
7. MVP(terran)
8. zero(zerg)
9. Huk(Protoss)
10. MC(Protoss)
Shuttle, Calm, Hyuk are probably top 20
MKP, Ryung, Puzzle, Rainbow are top 50.
If Effort gets back in the money game.. he could be a dark horse.
Stephano is also a wild card. he could be top five he decides SC2 as a career.
Nestea would be probably around top 15.
I tried to believe that you were making a very detailed analysis and forecast of the future. Then I saw the parts in bold (and underlined). Now I'm 100% certain you're trolling.
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On October 30 2011 07:37 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 07:27 Elroi wrote:On October 30 2011 07:06 Razuik wrote:On October 30 2011 06:39 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On October 30 2011 02:18 chatuka wrote:
I think MMA could compete if he trains hard enough and eats healthy food. brain food no toxic non-sense
top SC2 players could go like this.
1. Flash (terran)
2. Jaedong? (Zerg)
3. Jangbi(Protoss)
4. Bisu (Protoss)
5. MMA?(terran)
6 Fantasy(Terran)
7. MVP(terran)
8. zero(zerg)
9. Huk(Protoss)
10. MC(Protoss)
Shuttle, Calm, Hyuk are probably top 20
MKP, Ryung, Puzzle, Rainbow are top 50.
If Effort gets back in the money game.. he could be a dark horse.
Stephano is also a wild card. he could be top five he decides SC2 as a career.
Nestea would be probably around top 15. Am I being trolled? Let's be realistic here. MVP would be extremely lucky to be in the top 50 if and when the pro BW teams switch. Stephano top 5? What am I seeing? O_o MVP sub-top 50? You're overestimating how much better BW pros are going to be... to extremes lol. Am I being trolled? Sure he could be in top 30 or top 20. But MVP couldn't compete with the top in anything in BW. He was far behind players like Jaedong, Zero, Bisu, Flash, Stork, Hydra, Effort, Snow, Calm, Fantasy etc etc in ALL aspects of the game: micro, macro, game sense, timing, preparation. I see no reason that he should remain in the top if these players decide to switch. And I whole heartedly hope they don't switch! I don't understand this logic at all.. That was in their game like two years ago.. How can you take that information, apply it two years later to a different game and expect the exact same outcome? I remember hearing Artosis saying in the beginning of SC2 "Oh MvP? He's a cheesy noob. I don't expect him going anywhere". And he didn't. Some months later though he started improving drastically, and is now the most solid, macro based terran in SC2.
You can change a lot in two years.
What if MVP had stayed in the BW scene? Maybe he had exploded there as well, winning everything and being the best of the best. Who knows? You can't really compare anyway.
He played BW longer than he did SC2 and he only got super good at SC2 in a shorter amount of time. The more logical reasoning that one should make is that SC2 is an easier game with easier competition.
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On October 30 2011 08:17 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 07:37 Euronyme wrote:On October 30 2011 07:27 Elroi wrote:On October 30 2011 07:06 Razuik wrote:On October 30 2011 06:39 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On October 30 2011 02:18 chatuka wrote:
I think MMA could compete if he trains hard enough and eats healthy food. brain food no toxic non-sense
top SC2 players could go like this.
1. Flash (terran)
2. Jaedong? (Zerg)
3. Jangbi(Protoss)
4. Bisu (Protoss)
5. MMA?(terran)
6 Fantasy(Terran)
7. MVP(terran)
8. zero(zerg)
9. Huk(Protoss)
10. MC(Protoss)
Shuttle, Calm, Hyuk are probably top 20
MKP, Ryung, Puzzle, Rainbow are top 50.
If Effort gets back in the money game.. he could be a dark horse.
Stephano is also a wild card. he could be top five he decides SC2 as a career.
Nestea would be probably around top 15. Am I being trolled? Let's be realistic here. MVP would be extremely lucky to be in the top 50 if and when the pro BW teams switch. Stephano top 5? What am I seeing? O_o MVP sub-top 50? You're overestimating how much better BW pros are going to be... to extremes lol. Am I being trolled? Sure he could be in top 30 or top 20. But MVP couldn't compete with the top in anything in BW. He was far behind players like Jaedong, Zero, Bisu, Flash, Stork, Hydra, Effort, Snow, Calm, Fantasy etc etc in ALL aspects of the game: micro, macro, game sense, timing, preparation. I see no reason that he should remain in the top if these players decide to switch. And I whole heartedly hope they don't switch! I don't understand this logic at all.. That was in their game like two years ago.. How can you take that information, apply it two years later to a different game and expect the exact same outcome? I remember hearing Artosis saying in the beginning of SC2 "Oh MvP? He's a cheesy noob. I don't expect him going anywhere". And he didn't. Some months later though he started improving drastically, and is now the most solid, macro based terran in SC2.
You can change a lot in two years.
What if MVP had stayed in the BW scene? Maybe he had exploded there as well, winning everything and being the best of the best. Who knows? You can't really compare anyway. He played BW longer than he did SC2 and he only got super good at SC2 in a shorter amount of time. The more logical reasoning that one should make is that SC2 is an easier game with easier competition.
Or that he connected more with SC2 than BW. OR that his skill continued to improve from his BW days, Or that he picked the race in SC2 thats advancing at the fastest pace strategy wise, OR that he's not actual Super good and the scene is still growing, OR any number of reasons that is less insulting to the forums in which you are posting.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
mvp's problem in bw was that he wasn't fast enough to multitask with insane s class guys, but his builds and fundamentals were pretty solid. it is certainly possible that decisionmaking skills are more emphasized relative to mechanical ones in sc2, so mvp in sc2 is a better fit than mvp in sc1. but this is entirely speculative
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I'm going to just reiterate what Nada already said in an interview. Whenever a bw player on the level of Jaedong, Flash, Bisu switches to SC2 they will completely dominate the entire scene. I would lean toward Nada being a more knowledgable source than what people say on TL.
BW and SC2 are different games but things that made you godly in BW will also make you a godly player in SC2. Things like macro, micro, multitasking, hand speed, game sense, reaction speed, dedication to training, etc just dont vanish because you switch games. Those 3 players would be the best in any RTS game because of there inherent attributes that make them so good.
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On October 30 2011 07:52 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 07:37 Euronyme wrote:On October 30 2011 07:27 Elroi wrote:On October 30 2011 07:06 Razuik wrote:On October 30 2011 06:39 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On October 30 2011 02:18 chatuka wrote:
I think MMA could compete if he trains hard enough and eats healthy food. brain food no toxic non-sense
top SC2 players could go like this.
1. Flash (terran)
2. Jaedong? (Zerg)
3. Jangbi(Protoss)
4. Bisu (Protoss)
5. MMA?(terran)
6 Fantasy(Terran)
7. MVP(terran)
8. zero(zerg)
9. Huk(Protoss)
10. MC(Protoss)
Shuttle, Calm, Hyuk are probably top 20
MKP, Ryung, Puzzle, Rainbow are top 50.
If Effort gets back in the money game.. he could be a dark horse.
Stephano is also a wild card. he could be top five he decides SC2 as a career.
Nestea would be probably around top 15. Am I being trolled? Let's be realistic here. MVP would be extremely lucky to be in the top 50 if and when the pro BW teams switch. Stephano top 5? What am I seeing? O_o MVP sub-top 50? You're overestimating how much better BW pros are going to be... to extremes lol. Am I being trolled? Sure he could be in top 30 or top 20. But MVP couldn't compete with the top in anything in BW. He was far behind players like Jaedong, Zero, Bisu, Flash, Stork, Hydra, Effort, Snow, Calm, Fantasy etc etc in ALL aspects of the game: micro, macro, game sense, timing, preparation. I see no reason that he should remain in the top if these players decide to switch. And I whole heartedly hope they don't switch! I don't understand this logic at all.. That was in their game like two years ago.. How can you take that information, apply it two years later to a different game and expect the exact same outcome? I remember hearing Artosis saying in the beginning of SC2 "Oh MvP? He's a cheesy noob. I don't expect him going anywhere". And he didn't. Some months later though he started improving drastically, and is now the most solid, macro based terran in SC2. You can change a lot in two years. What if MVP had stayed in the BW scene? Maybe he had exploded there as well, winning everything and being the best of the best. Who knows? You can't really compare anyway. Hmm, MVP wasn't all that cheesy in BW. He was just dull, hit his peak and his career wasn't going anywhere. Comparable to someone like Clide in SC2. I also don't remember Artosis saying that. I do remember that a lot of people already considered MVP to be the best (SC2) player around the time of GSL Open 3, when he was struggling to break into RO8.
It was on an old state of the game vod I happened to listen to the other day. Just when he switched over from BW. It wasn't an official announcement or anything.
Edit. Another example is MC who came to the SC2 scene and was absolute shit for the first couple of GSLs, and he was known to have nerve issues stopping him according to Idra. He also lived in Korea at the time, so he should be a fairly reliable source.
After a while he got over it and started smashing.
My entire point is that you can develope alot during a year, and the best SC2 players could probably throw down with the top tier of BW players should they switch over. This is mainly against people saying top 50 will be BW players, which I don't think will be the case. Flash, JD, Bisu etc will probably be the top, but I think the SC2 top pros are underrated by BW fans, just because they had a bad BW career.
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On October 30 2011 08:56 jyLee wrote:
I'm going to just reiterate what Nada already said in an interview. Whenever a bw player on the level of Jaedong, Flash, Bisu switches to SC2 they will completely dominate the entire scene. I would lean toward Nada being a more knowledgable source than what people say on TL.
BW and SC2 are different games but things that made you godly in BW will also make you a godly player in SC2. Things like macro, micro, multitasking, hand speed, game sense, reaction speed, dedication to training, etc just dont vanish because you switch games. Those 3 players would succeed in any RTS game because of there inherent attributes that make them so good.
the probable i see with flash bisu and jaedong in SC2 is that they are older, and would have to play catchup for 3-4 years of SC2 experience that everyone will have (minimum) by the time the switch for them happens, they will be older and unable to perform at the level required of them to completely dominate, especially with new young talent funneling into SC2. so will a flash 3-4 years from now be as dominant in SC2 as he was in BW a year ago? I don't think he would be. meanwhile players like baby, who have the talent to be a great in BW, have plenty of time to catch up in SC2 age wise, as well as much more of a reason to switch now-ish.
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On October 30 2011 07:37 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 07:27 Elroi wrote:On October 30 2011 07:06 Razuik wrote:On October 30 2011 06:39 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On October 30 2011 02:18 chatuka wrote:
I think MMA could compete if he trains hard enough and eats healthy food. brain food no toxic non-sense
top SC2 players could go like this.
1. Flash (terran)
2. Jaedong? (Zerg)
3. Jangbi(Protoss)
4. Bisu (Protoss)
5. MMA?(terran)
6 Fantasy(Terran)
7. MVP(terran)
8. zero(zerg)
9. Huk(Protoss)
10. MC(Protoss)
Shuttle, Calm, Hyuk are probably top 20
MKP, Ryung, Puzzle, Rainbow are top 50.
If Effort gets back in the money game.. he could be a dark horse.
Stephano is also a wild card. he could be top five he decides SC2 as a career.
Nestea would be probably around top 15. Am I being trolled? Let's be realistic here. MVP would be extremely lucky to be in the top 50 if and when the pro BW teams switch. Stephano top 5? What am I seeing? O_o MVP sub-top 50? You're overestimating how much better BW pros are going to be... to extremes lol. Am I being trolled? Sure he could be in top 30 or top 20. But MVP couldn't compete with the top in anything in BW. He was far behind players like Jaedong, Zero, Bisu, Flash, Stork, Hydra, Effort, Snow, Calm, Fantasy etc etc in ALL aspects of the game: micro, macro, game sense, timing, preparation. I see no reason that he should remain in the top if these players decide to switch. And I whole heartedly hope they don't switch! I don't understand this logic at all.. That was in their game like two years ago.. How can you take that information, apply it two years later to a different game and expect the exact same outcome? I remember hearing Artosis saying in the beginning of SC2 "Oh MvP? He's a cheesy noob. I don't expect him going anywhere". And he didn't. Some months later though he started improving drastically, and is now the most solid, macro based terran in SC2. You can change a lot in two years. What if MVP had stayed in the BW scene? Maybe he had exploded there as well, winning everything and being the best of the best. Who knows? You can't really compare anyway.
FYI not a single dominant player in BW did as badly as MVP did in the beginning of their BW careers. For all of those players, their talent was obvious from the beginning of their careers.
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If a switch happens im 100% sure about flash dominating everything.
Dont know about the rest though. Even though JD, Bisu and so on is absolutely amazing they might lack the dedication. Im thinking snow and some of the more up-and-coming players will be very good.
Then again, JD, Bisu and such will be able to roll everyone on just god-experience-wonderkid-mode for a long while. And if they find a love for the game...its going to be messy!
Quite oftopic: Ret and Nony are probably the most talented players the foreign scene has ever seen. IF they just get their practice on, they will be scary as hell. fuck ( i need to use that word somewhere in this text to emphasize the truth to it).
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I don't know much about Kespa, but how will this effect the organization? Thanks.
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Starcraft 2 is another game then Broodwar. I allways say prove youself first. So until the BW players start winning something I wont really pay them much attention.
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Bisu is my favorite protoss players of all time... I can't wait to see him vs FlaSh in the GSL finals. 
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On October 30 2011 09:25 JeffVader wrote:
I don't know much about Kespa, but how will this effect the organization? Thanks.
It's rather would than will as there's absolutely nothing confirmed really. Even the teams practicing don't have a clue whether it'll actually come to use afaik.
Kespa would be the ones behind it regardless, so.. I guess they think it'd effect it to the positive. Not really sure what you mean by 'effect'. Any chance you could be a bit more specific?
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On October 30 2011 09:01 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 08:56 jyLee wrote:
I'm going to just reiterate what Nada already said in an interview. Whenever a bw player on the level of Jaedong, Flash, Bisu switches to SC2 they will completely dominate the entire scene. I would lean toward Nada being a more knowledgable source than what people say on TL.
BW and SC2 are different games but things that made you godly in BW will also make you a godly player in SC2. Things like macro, micro, multitasking, hand speed, game sense, reaction speed, dedication to training, etc just dont vanish because you switch games. Those 3 players would succeed in any RTS game because of there inherent attributes that make them so good. the probable i see with flash bisu and jaedong in SC2 is that they are older, and would have to play catchup for 3-4 years of SC2 experience that everyone will have (minimum) by the time the switch for them happens, they will be older and unable to perform at the level required of them to completely dominate, especially with new young talent funneling into SC2. so will a flash 3-4 years from now be as dominant in SC2 as he was in BW a year ago? I don't think he would be. meanwhile players like baby, who have the talent to be a great in BW, have plenty of time to catch up in SC2 age wise, as well as much more of a reason to switch now-ish.
Afrotoss will dominate sc2 with baby and zero. :D
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On October 30 2011 09:28 HappyChris wrote:
Starcraft 2 is another game then Broodwar. I allways say prove youself first. So until the BW players start winning something I wont really pay them much attention.
FYI, every GSL (unless you count Super Tournament, then every GSL except one) has been won by former BW progamers. BW players already dominate the korean tournaments.
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On October 30 2011 09:36 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 09:28 HappyChris wrote:
Starcraft 2 is another game then Broodwar. I allways say prove youself first. So until the BW players start winning something I wont really pay them much attention. FYI, every GSL (unless you count Super Tournament, then every GSL except one) has been won by former BW progamers. BW players already dominate the korean tournaments.
Actually Polt is the only one who won GSL and wasnt BW pro but semi pro Warcraft player.
edit: opps didnt read well
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Kespa getting shafted no? They may hold a monopoly on the BW scene but all the pros that are switching over don't need kespa anymore right?
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EPT
