|
On October 28 2011 20:29 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
It's amusing how many of you think zerg was sooo UP back in 2010. Spare me the bullshit, after the reaper nerf, only thing that affected zerg was a bunker rush witch could be easily blocked by having a freaking drone at the bottom of the ramp. Besides that, muta/ling/baneling was as strong back then as it is now, only difference are the infestor plays you see today, witch were used back then also, to a lesser extent( ling infestor).
Given that the maps played and no infestor buff (meaning you didn't actually need ghosts to counter hive tech) terran was a better race back then. However playing terran in macro game was just more difficult, and requires more practice. Controlling muta/bling just comes more natural than controlling tank marines. Terrans have slowly learned how to play macro games and hence slowly gotton nerfed in each patch.
|
On October 28 2011 20:35 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 20:32 Hider wrote:On October 28 2011 17:53 Grumbels wrote:
Cauthonluck (Cluck!) had results well into release and was still one of the better terran players back then. His style was slightly gimmicky, but almost everyone's was back then. The reason he quit the game was because he was offered a job opportunity, not because he was a scrub who abused terran only. Yeah, he was famous for his 11rax/11fac/11starport banshee all-in against Idra and beating him 4-0 (1?) in the King of the Beta Hill(?) series, but he had legitimate results.
Silver was quite a revolutionary player I think. In a time where everyone was still apprehensive, waiting to see how the SC2 metagame would work out, players like Idra were just working on raising their overall gameplay, he realized that he could have success right then and there because he had a good talent for discovering timings. It's actually not trivial to see if the game would end up being about macro and mechanics, similar to Brood War. Artosis always said that and he turned out to be right, but I think it could have been different and for a portion of time it really was different. Silver was one of the few good players to really run with that idea, just coming up with 'abusive' builds.
This also takes talent, a lot of the people good in beta didn't have the highest of APM, but they had RTS experience and were very clever. Nowadays, like Silver, they've faded, but in a way it was a more interesting time than it is now.
Also, MadFrog was terrible. I don't know if he just didn't practice enough, but he could never play well enough to beat anyone who played straight up. A player like him wouldn't win anything now. What abusive build did Silver come up with? Tanks on high grounds? 1 base thor push? He played kidna like every other terran back then. And obv. terran had it easy back then, and Idra was without a doubt a better mechanical player than him. But of course the reason he stopped playing wasn't because he was extremely bad and only could win with gimmicks. Players like Naniwa and HUk and lots of other terran players were abusive back then, and slowly improved and played a stronger and stronger macro style. And sc2 definitely was supposed to be a macro game. If sc2 still was played as it was back in beta/early release it would never had the succes it had now, as everybody would have gotton tired of the allins. So thinkin Silver was extremely intelligent or thinking he was an extremely bad player is not true. He was just a pretty decent terran player who played like most other terran players, and happened to beat idra. Back then ,Zerg didn't even know they could magic box, and Idra wen't roaches. Rushing mutas was a good tactic in stopping that high ground abuse on LT.
By "come up with" I mean "invented".
|
Yeah, cuz it took them 1 year to figure out they could do baneling drops instead of the same roach/hydra crap over and over again, so Protoss can just 1 A and roll. But we're talking ZvT here and my point stands, post reaper nerf there was simply nothing different back then with muta/ling/bane than now. Roaches were weaker till the range buff, but going roach vs Terran isn't really popular even now. I know Idra vs Silver was just a few days after launch, but still, ppl didn't even know how to magic box back then, and even the reaper opening wasn't figured out then.
|
On October 28 2011 20:29 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
It's amusing how many of you think zerg was sooo UP back in 2010. Spare me the bullshit, after the reaper nerf, only thing that affected zerg was a bunker rush witch could be easily blocked by having a freaking drone at the bottom of the ramp. Besides that, muta/ling/baneling was as strong back then as it is now, only difference are the infestor plays you see today, witch were used back then also, to a lesser extent( ling infestor).
Steppes of war? You are very funny my friend hahahahahahhahha. The Zergs of today won't win a game on that map, and this is a Zerg that has been buffed whilst Terran has been nerfed. Delta Quadrant? Xelnaga Caverns was the second best Zerg map at the time, what does that tell you ? You're completely crazy if you think Zerg was any good.
|
On October 28 2011 20:38 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 20:29 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
It's amusing how many of you think zerg was sooo UP back in 2010. Spare me the bullshit, after the reaper nerf, only thing that affected zerg was a bunker rush witch could be easily blocked by having a freaking drone at the bottom of the ramp. Besides that, muta/ling/baneling was as strong back then as it is now, only difference are the infestor plays you see today, witch were used back then also, to a lesser extent( ling infestor). Given that the maps played and no infestor buff (meaning you didn't actually need ghosts to counter hive tech) terran was a better race back then. However playing terran in macro game was just more difficult, and requires more practice. Controlling muta/bling just comes more natural than controlling tank marines. Terrans have slowly learned how to play macro games and hence slowly gotton nerfed in each patch.
What has gotten nerfed that has affected zerg? Marines haven't, tanks haven't( I'm talking post beta here). Hive tech besides Infestors killing everything in a few fungals like now ,was the same.
|
Madfrog just picked the wrong race, if he played protoss his playstyle would have allowed him to do more for sure. Yet he was practicing all ins and stuff like that all the time so when the game got more competitive he didn't really keep up with the rest. The easy road is never the right one.
|
On October 28 2011 11:01 GinDo wrote:
What happened to Masq. Thats my question. He was so good.
Check the non-featured streams, he streams to this day, around 5 viewers.
I always just troll chat by quoting idra lol
|
Wasn't madfrog a top BW player before war3?
|
On October 28 2011 20:45 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 20:38 Hider wrote:On October 28 2011 20:29 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
It's amusing how many of you think zerg was sooo UP back in 2010. Spare me the bullshit, after the reaper nerf, only thing that affected zerg was a bunker rush witch could be easily blocked by having a freaking drone at the bottom of the ramp. Besides that, muta/ling/baneling was as strong back then as it is now, only difference are the infestor plays you see today, witch were used back then also, to a lesser extent( ling infestor). Given that the maps played and no infestor buff (meaning you didn't actually need ghosts to counter hive tech) terran was a better race back then. However playing terran in macro game was just more difficult, and requires more practice. Controlling muta/bling just comes more natural than controlling tank marines. Terrans have slowly learned how to play macro games and hence slowly gotton nerfed in each patch. What has gotten nerfed that has affected zerg? Marines haven't, tanks haven't( I'm talking post beta here). Hive tech besides Infestors killing everything in a few fungals like now ,was the same.
Eh I kinda stated it in my post:
- Map changes
- Infestor buff (which made them much stronger at dealing with vikings).
I guess btw you dont mean post beta as tanks and reapers were nerfed after the game had been released.
|
On October 28 2011 20:44 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 20:29 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
It's amusing how many of you think zerg was sooo UP back in 2010. Spare me the bullshit, after the reaper nerf, only thing that affected zerg was a bunker rush witch could be easily blocked by having a freaking drone at the bottom of the ramp. Besides that, muta/ling/baneling was as strong back then as it is now, only difference are the infestor plays you see today, witch were used back then also, to a lesser extent( ling infestor). Steppes of war? You are very funny my friend hahahahahahhahha. The Zergs of today won't win a game on that map, and this is a Zerg that has been buffed whilst Terran has been nerfed. Delta Quadrant? Xelnaga Caverns was the second best Zerg map at the time, what does that tell you ? You're completely crazy if you think Zerg was any good.
Silver and Idra played on LT and Metalopolis. On Metalopolis, Silver did a 1 base mech push, he had 2 Thors,2 Tanks and a few blue flame hellions. If that crap can beat a Zerg close spawn today, then I suck and you're a god of SC2.
|
On October 28 2011 20:53 shell wrote:
Wasn't madfrog a top BW player before war3?
yes he was
|
On October 28 2011 20:54 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 20:45 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:On October 28 2011 20:38 Hider wrote:On October 28 2011 20:29 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
It's amusing how many of you think zerg was sooo UP back in 2010. Spare me the bullshit, after the reaper nerf, only thing that affected zerg was a bunker rush witch could be easily blocked by having a freaking drone at the bottom of the ramp. Besides that, muta/ling/baneling was as strong back then as it is now, only difference are the infestor plays you see today, witch were used back then also, to a lesser extent( ling infestor). Given that the maps played and no infestor buff (meaning you didn't actually need ghosts to counter hive tech) terran was a better race back then. However playing terran in macro game was just more difficult, and requires more practice. Controlling muta/bling just comes more natural than controlling tank marines. Terrans have slowly learned how to play macro games and hence slowly gotton nerfed in each patch. What has gotten nerfed that has affected zerg? Marines haven't, tanks haven't( I'm talking post beta here). Hive tech besides Infestors killing everything in a few fungals like now ,was the same. Eh I kinda stated it in my post: - Map changes - Infestor buff (which made them much stronger at dealing with vikings). I guess btw you dont mean post beta as tanks and reapers were nerfed after the game had been released.
I do mean post beta, I stated that in my first post, obviously reapers were OP, so were Tanks, it fucked up Mech TvP but I guess 1/1/1's would of been even more unstoppable.
Map changes have helped zerg, and Infesters have been way 2 buffed. Vikings weren't really a problem back then either, Corrupters + non OP Fungal Growth was enough to kill them.
|
On October 28 2011 20:57 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 20:54 Hider wrote:On October 28 2011 20:45 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:On October 28 2011 20:38 Hider wrote:On October 28 2011 20:29 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
It's amusing how many of you think zerg was sooo UP back in 2010. Spare me the bullshit, after the reaper nerf, only thing that affected zerg was a bunker rush witch could be easily blocked by having a freaking drone at the bottom of the ramp. Besides that, muta/ling/baneling was as strong back then as it is now, only difference are the infestor plays you see today, witch were used back then also, to a lesser extent( ling infestor). Given that the maps played and no infestor buff (meaning you didn't actually need ghosts to counter hive tech) terran was a better race back then. However playing terran in macro game was just more difficult, and requires more practice. Controlling muta/bling just comes more natural than controlling tank marines. Terrans have slowly learned how to play macro games and hence slowly gotton nerfed in each patch. What has gotten nerfed that has affected zerg? Marines haven't, tanks haven't( I'm talking post beta here). Hive tech besides Infestors killing everything in a few fungals like now ,was the same. Eh I kinda stated it in my post: - Map changes - Infestor buff (which made them much stronger at dealing with vikings). I guess btw you dont mean post beta as tanks and reapers were nerfed after the game had been released. I do mean post beta, I stated that in my first post, obviously reapers were OP, so were Tanks, it fucked up Mech TvP but I guess 1/1/1's would of been even more unstoppable.
Well post beta terran was pretty OP (even with the skill level of players back then). Remember roaches were worse as well. Blue flame hellions could kite them (and still did + 10 dmg to light). Tanks 50 dmg to light, obv. with decent control a terran of todays standard would almost never lose to muta/bling. But of course back then terrans didn't know how to marine split. Infestors werent that good against marines, as medivacs healed faster (so you could kidna counter high infestor count by high medivac count + tanks).
And given that the map was played at close lost temple, close meta, steppes of war, or whatever. Terran by today standards would simply absolutely destroy zergs of todays standards. However as terran was (and IMO is) the more difficult race to play in a macro game, terrans didn't destroy everything back then. There was a short period (after the tank + reaper nerf) where zergs were doing veyr well vs terrans. Then marine spltting and 2 rax got invented and terrans did better again.
Edit: AS i saw you eidted your post. Vikings were much better at dealing with broodlord/corrupter. Infestors wasn't really that usefull in that composition as they did not do a lot of dmg to vikings. So if you had the vikign count you coul deal with it. Its much more difficult now.
|
Ok here is what i know/have heard.
Madfrog is and where working as a guard at jail (not the prison, the place you will be taken if youre to drunk and so on). He wanted SK to pay him enough for him too quit work to play full time but they didnt. Then he said that if he didnt win Dreamhack (think it was dreamhack) he would quit the game. I have seen him play around 10-50 games per season since then but mostley playing RISK custom game. 
|
MaDFroG was average, the only thing that made him stand out in my eyes was his overall terrible decisonmaking, amongst the worst I had ever seen. I've seen him not daring to runby a single cannon and no block with ten lings at the same time as the commentator praises him as one of the agressivest opportunitytaking players. I ranted about MaDFroG abit couple of months ago when this was going on.
It's always sad when unknown skilled players quits because they become overlooked and judged from lack of pre-fame meanwhile MaDFroG could roam around for a few months riding his wc3 wagon. And this happend alot in the beginning, just check out replays from back then and wonder where did this genius go?
I'm not saying I'm glad his gone but I am glad he stopped getting false credit which in essence put an end to his sc2 days.
|
On October 28 2011 21:03 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 20:57 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:On October 28 2011 20:54 Hider wrote:On October 28 2011 20:45 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:On October 28 2011 20:38 Hider wrote:On October 28 2011 20:29 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
It's amusing how many of you think zerg was sooo UP back in 2010. Spare me the bullshit, after the reaper nerf, only thing that affected zerg was a bunker rush witch could be easily blocked by having a freaking drone at the bottom of the ramp. Besides that, muta/ling/baneling was as strong back then as it is now, only difference are the infestor plays you see today, witch were used back then also, to a lesser extent( ling infestor). Given that the maps played and no infestor buff (meaning you didn't actually need ghosts to counter hive tech) terran was a better race back then. However playing terran in macro game was just more difficult, and requires more practice. Controlling muta/bling just comes more natural than controlling tank marines. Terrans have slowly learned how to play macro games and hence slowly gotton nerfed in each patch. What has gotten nerfed that has affected zerg? Marines haven't, tanks haven't( I'm talking post beta here). Hive tech besides Infestors killing everything in a few fungals like now ,was the same. Eh I kinda stated it in my post: - Map changes - Infestor buff (which made them much stronger at dealing with vikings). I guess btw you dont mean post beta as tanks and reapers were nerfed after the game had been released. I do mean post beta, I stated that in my first post, obviously reapers were OP, so were Tanks, it fucked up Mech TvP but I guess 1/1/1's would of been even more unstoppable. Well post beta terran was pretty OP (even with the skill level of players back then). Remember roaches were worse as well. Blue flame hellions could kite them (and still did + 10 dmg to light). Tanks 50 dmg to light, obv. with decent control a terran of todays standard would almost never lose to muta/bling. But of course back then terrans didn't know how to marine split. Infestors werent that good against marines, as medivacs healed faster (so you could kidna counter high infestor count by high medivac count + tanks). And given that the map was played at close lost temple, close meta, steppes of war, or whatever. Terran by today standards would simply absolutely destroy zergs of todays standards. However as terran was (and IMO is) the more difficult race to play in a macro game, terrans didn't destroy everything back then. There was a short period (after the tank + reaper nerf) where zergs were doing veyr well vs terrans. Then marine spltting and 2 rax got invented and terrans did better again. Edit: AS i saw you eidted your post. Vikings were much better at dealing with broodlord/corrupter. Infestors wasn't really that usefull in that composition as they did not do a lot of dmg to vikings. So if you had the vikign count you coul deal with it. Its much more difficult now.
I think the combo of that period's fungal and corrupters were pretty ok vs vikings, now vikings are close to non existent because they die so easily to infestors. I also think only close spawn positions kept Terrans winning back then, if there would of been larger maps and no close positions back then, Zergs would of steamrolled Terran so bad. But comming back to the Idra vs Silver match Idra just didn't respond right to what silver did, he wen't roaches on LT , mutas would of won him the game, he lost to 2 tanks 2 thors and a bunch of hellions on Metalopolis, that push today would die so easily to Zergs.
|
On October 28 2011 21:09 SpurvL wrote:Ok here is what i know/have heard. Madfrog is and where working as a guard at jail (not the prison, the place you will be taken if youre to drunk and so on). He wanted SK to pay him enough for him too quit work to play full time but they didnt. Then he said that if he didnt win Dreamhack (think it was dreamhack) he would quit the game. I have seen him play around 10-50 games per season since then but mostley playing RISK custom game. Sounds legit. Also makes me sad. Was just thinking the other day about Madfrog. I mean, he's the type of oddball player who could become incredibly good, if he had the opportunity to get serious about it.
|
On October 28 2011 21:11 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 21:03 Hider wrote:On October 28 2011 20:57 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:On October 28 2011 20:54 Hider wrote:On October 28 2011 20:45 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:On October 28 2011 20:38 Hider wrote:On October 28 2011 20:29 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
It's amusing how many of you think zerg was sooo UP back in 2010. Spare me the bullshit, after the reaper nerf, only thing that affected zerg was a bunker rush witch could be easily blocked by having a freaking drone at the bottom of the ramp. Besides that, muta/ling/baneling was as strong back then as it is now, only difference are the infestor plays you see today, witch were used back then also, to a lesser extent( ling infestor). Given that the maps played and no infestor buff (meaning you didn't actually need ghosts to counter hive tech) terran was a better race back then. However playing terran in macro game was just more difficult, and requires more practice. Controlling muta/bling just comes more natural than controlling tank marines. Terrans have slowly learned how to play macro games and hence slowly gotton nerfed in each patch. What has gotten nerfed that has affected zerg? Marines haven't, tanks haven't( I'm talking post beta here). Hive tech besides Infestors killing everything in a few fungals like now ,was the same. Eh I kinda stated it in my post: - Map changes - Infestor buff (which made them much stronger at dealing with vikings). I guess btw you dont mean post beta as tanks and reapers were nerfed after the game had been released. I do mean post beta, I stated that in my first post, obviously reapers were OP, so were Tanks, it fucked up Mech TvP but I guess 1/1/1's would of been even more unstoppable. Well post beta terran was pretty OP (even with the skill level of players back then). Remember roaches were worse as well. Blue flame hellions could kite them (and still did + 10 dmg to light). Tanks 50 dmg to light, obv. with decent control a terran of todays standard would almost never lose to muta/bling. But of course back then terrans didn't know how to marine split. Infestors werent that good against marines, as medivacs healed faster (so you could kidna counter high infestor count by high medivac count + tanks). And given that the map was played at close lost temple, close meta, steppes of war, or whatever. Terran by today standards would simply absolutely destroy zergs of todays standards. However as terran was (and IMO is) the more difficult race to play in a macro game, terrans didn't destroy everything back then. There was a short period (after the tank + reaper nerf) where zergs were doing veyr well vs terrans. Then marine spltting and 2 rax got invented and terrans did better again. Edit: AS i saw you eidted your post. Vikings were much better at dealing with broodlord/corrupter. Infestors wasn't really that usefull in that composition as they did not do a lot of dmg to vikings. So if you had the vikign count you coul deal with it. Its much more difficult now. I think the combo of that period's fungal and corrupters were pretty ok vs vikings, now vikings are close to non existent because they die so easily to infestors. I also think only close spawn positions kept Terrans winning back then, if there would of been larger maps and no close positions back then, Zergs would of steamrolled Terran so bad. But comming back to the Idra vs Silver match Idra just didn't respond right to what silver did, he wen't roaches on LT , mutas would of won him the game, he lost to 2 tanks 2 thors and a bunch of hellions on Metalopolis, that push today would die so easily to Zergs.
Yeh I kinda agree with you. If the balance + maps were the same back then as they are today, terran would lose to every equal skilled zerg, since the skill level was very low back then.
Im not relly that interested in discussing whether idra reacted correctly or badly, but I am just trying to point out that Silver didn't that that much diferent from most other terran players back then. He wasn't an intelligent player or much more cheesy than most other good terran players. Its just the "idra" effect that has made people think that.
|
On October 28 2011 11:01 GinDo wrote:
What happened to Masq. Thats my question. He was so good.
i remember 2 maybe 3 months ago idra was streaming ladder and he got matched against Masq.. so atleast he still does play, and at a GM level since he got matched against idra
|
On October 28 2011 20:32 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 17:53 Grumbels wrote:
Cauthonluck (Cluck!) had results well into release and was still one of the better terran players back then. His style was slightly gimmicky, but almost everyone's was back then. The reason he quit the game was because he was offered a job opportunity, not because he was a scrub who abused terran only. Yeah, he was famous for his 11rax/11fac/11starport banshee all-in against Idra and beating him 4-0 (1?) in the King of the Beta Hill(?) series, but he had legitimate results.
Silver was quite a revolutionary player I think. In a time where everyone was still apprehensive, waiting to see how the SC2 metagame would work out, players like Idra were just working on raising their overall gameplay, he realized that he could have success right then and there because he had a good talent for discovering timings. It's actually not trivial to see if the game would end up being about macro and mechanics, similar to Brood War. Artosis always said that and he turned out to be right, but I think it could have been different and for a portion of time it really was different. Silver was one of the few good players to really run with that idea, just coming up with 'abusive' builds.
This also takes talent, a lot of the people good in beta didn't have the highest of APM, but they had RTS experience and were very clever. Nowadays, like Silver, they've faded, but in a way it was a more interesting time than it is now.
Also, MadFrog was terrible. I don't know if he just didn't practice enough, but he could never play well enough to beat anyone who played straight up. A player like him wouldn't win anything now. What abusive build did Silver come up with? Tanks on high grounds? 1 base thor push? He played kidna like every other terran back then. And obv. terran had it easy back then, and Idra was without a doubt a better mechanical player than him. But of course the reason he stopped playing wasn't because he was extremely bad and only could win with gimmicks. Players like Naniwa and HUk and lots of other terran players were abusive back then, and slowly improved and played a stronger and stronger macro style. And sc2 definitely was supposed to be a macro game. If sc2 still was played as it was back in beta/early release it would never had the succes it had now, as everybody would have gotton tired of the allins. So thinkin Silver was extremely intelligent or thinking he was an extremely bad player is not true. He was just a pretty decent terran player who played like most other terran players, and happened to beat idra.
Why are you so hostile and why do you put so many words in my mouth?
1. Silver came up with some tricky all-in builds.
2. SC2 might have been supposed to be a macro game, but it need not have ended up that way.
3. I didn't say he was extremely intelligent, just that his approach was focused on mindgames and strategy in a way that was innovative and the right way to play at that specific point in the game's development. Nowadays it's terrible, of course.
4. I used 'abusive' in quotes. You might think 4gate was abusive, but both Huk and Naniwa weren't really abusive players. Just because they liked to one-base using good micro? By the way, I think Huk has always been a macro player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
