EPTThe Shield Buff in Numbers - Page 4
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Doomblaze
United States1292 Posts
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Deezl
United States355 Posts
Also please remember that before this patch, it literally cost almost double what it cost T or Z to fully upgrade our units, because they only have attack and carapace requirements. The shield cost buff is definitely an Archon buff, and now instead of being an empty button to be researched on principle when you have 3000 unspent resources, you can actually use it in a planned strategy, thus diversifying the way the game is played. Its also an interesting buff to blink-stalkers, another nerfed unit, because blinkstalkers regenerate a lot of shield with good usage. | ||
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kobrakai
175 Posts
On October 27 2011 03:04 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote: Imagine if blizzard make stim and combat shield 50/50 instead of 100/100, the whole world would be freaking out, and there would be no real difference. It's the same effect with protoss upgrades. Are you really trying to compare the effect that stim has on a unit, to the effect that +2/3 upgrades has? Are you really? Hahahahahahahahahaha | ||
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Kurr
Canada2338 Posts
On October 27 2011 03:07 kobrakai wrote: Are you really trying to compare the effect that stim has on a unit, to the effect that +2/3 upgrades has? Are you really? Hahahahahahahahahaha His point is clear and easy to understand. The slight reduction in cost doesn't have a large effect on the game. They didn't change the effect or research time. | ||
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Doomblaze
United States1292 Posts
On October 27 2011 03:07 kobrakai wrote: Are you really trying to compare the effect that stim has on a unit, to the effect that +2/3 upgrades has? Are you really? Hahahahahahahahahaha No, but im trying to contribute to the thread, unlike you obviously. The point is that the cost of an upgrade isn't a big deal. | ||
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Wodenborn
United States15 Posts
In the current game, getting 2 forges (early on at least), seems to take too much money away from my army. I'd like to see if this changes with the new patch. I love big upgrade-based gateway play, so I'm still happy ^_^, even a free 50/50 is still FREE! :D | ||
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xSixGeneralHan
United States528 Posts
I'd be more worried about +2 blink all in hitting sooner or something. Which I don't even think is a concern. This change is meant to make protoss upgrades fit into the overarcing plans better. You will always have people who play greedy and crazy sacrifice units in order to get fast as hell upgrades as protoss. This doesn't effect that really. Zergs and terrans upgrades fit better into the overall order of the build so this change for protoss is meant to make it easier and more affordable to work your upgrades into your plans. :D | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On October 27 2011 03:04 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote: Imagine if blizzard make stim and combat shield 50/50 instead of 100/100, the whole world would be freaking out, and there would be no real difference. It's the same effect with protoss upgrades. Well your Stim and combat shield is a lot earlier available than +2/+2 for Protoss, without needing to add extra buildings. So overall the changes would be very different. You propose to safe 100/100 on two Upgrades that make the unit like 80% better and are available the instant you have the buildings. The movespeed bonus given through stim makes MM deal 400% more damage against Zealot with perfect micro (I think you have 5 stims to micro away but are then left with only 5 HP on Marines and like 1 on Marauders) 1.4.2 Proposes to safe 50/50 on Upgrades that depending hugely on the situation make units between 8-10% better (that is not accurate because it is incredible hard to measure and depends on a million factors but the DPS is boosted by about 7ish% for Zealot/Stalker and the Armor makes them only survive a little longer vs certain units, also does not apply on shield) So yeah, it would be a huge deal. Remember to save the 50/50 for +2 +2 you need to get +1 +1 for the same costs first. On October 27 2011 03:24 VPGeneralHans wrote: Lol 3/3 timings?? O.o I'd be more worried about +2 blink all in hitting sooner or something. Which I don't even think is a concern. This change is meant to make protoss upgrades fit into the overarcing plans better. You will always have people who play greedy and crazy sacrifice units in order to get fast as hell upgrades as protoss. This doesn't effect that really. Zergs and terrans upgrades fit better into the overall order of the build so this change for protoss is meant to make it easier and more affordable to work your upgrades into your plans. :D This Thread is a reaction to hundreds of people going crazy on the PTR thread over how imbalanced Protoss is with +3+3 now. Imagening you rush for +3+3 is the most useful way to point out the key differences. I mean if you say it is 25/25 cheaper that does not sound impressive at all. People argued that you now have so strong timing pushes with this. well the +2 Blink Stalker timing will now effectively have half a Probe more, if you base the attack timing on when +2 finishes. You have to spent 25 Gas less. 6 Probes on one base mine 228 Gas per minute. so you can actually afford it about 6 Seconds earlier. Now you may say "These six seconds are a big deal!" In some games you might be right. But that logic only applies if you expect your opponent to otherwise have spent 25 Gas too much at the point +1 finishes so that he has to wait 6 seconds after +1 in order to start +2 in other words if his built was not perfected. I feel like that at the level where people make that a huge mistake (delaying the key upgrade the entire build evolves around) those 6 seconds will not make that much of a difference, because other mistakes will be made too that have a much higher impact. For example throwing away one Stalker carlessly early will have your push delayed by 12 Seconds if you have to remake it. | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
I still think it's really dumb though. Double forge was already a viable strategy, reducing upgrades really did nothing, well except for the shield upgrades. | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On October 27 2011 03:04 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote: Imagine if blizzard make stim and combat shield 50/50 instead of 100/100, the whole world would be freaking out, and there would be no real difference. It's the same effect with protoss upgrades. That's different, you're comparing different parts in the game. You can get stim at like the 6 min mark on 1/2 base when your economy is still weak. When you get 2/2 for Protoss, you would already have a full 2 base economy where 50/50 is very negligible. Oops, sorry for double post. | ||
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
Like you said, it isn't going to change anything, but it will make that style much more appealing. The decrease in cost for +3/+3 isn't enough to break any matchup, but its enough to balance them IMO. Going for fast upgrades was a really fine line in 1.4 since +3/+3 cost so much. There were timings where you did need that extra immortal or HT to stop a push that Protoss will now have, but only if their macro is spot on. All in all, a desirable change. | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On October 27 2011 03:07 kobrakai wrote: Are you really trying to compare the effect that stim has on a unit, to the effect that +2/3 upgrades has? Are you really? Hahahahahahahahahaha Actually... His point isn't that at all... The change is so insignificant that it won't matter. | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On October 27 2011 03:29 K3Nyy wrote: This change is a placebo more than anything else. The reduction in the prices are very negligible, pulling workers for a second would cost you more than this reduction in upgrades. I still think it's really dumb though. Double forge was already a viable strategy, reducing upgrades really did nothing, well except for the shield upgrades. The one thing that this does is make Players aware of the fact that Protoss has the "best"(that is arguable) Upgrades. This maybe result in more Protoss researching those Upgrades wich will result in the fact that Protoss gets played the way it should be. Protoss then has a super high-tech Army that has really strong but fewer Units. Now 20 Supply of Protoss can withstand 30 Supply Zerg more easily. So if you play Protoss you will actually play more Protoss than Starcraft2 (Imagine all races were exactly the same. You would play "Starcraft" not Protoss, since there is no difference) I love the Patch and even though at higher level it will change literally nothing (come on, MC or HuK will not change anything due to the +25 Minerals and Gas) it might change the feeling of the race and ther lower level playstyle. And that I find is really awesome! | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
Ground or Armor +1 to +3: When you start +1 whatever, you can build whatever you did before to make sure you have 150/150 when +1 finishes to start +2, nothing has changed. The extra 25 minerals cannot be used at all. When you cb your upgrade and go for +3, you can make the same stuff before and time it so you have enough for +3 as soon as +2 is done, except now you can make a probe in addition to whatever you made before. Alternate ground/armor: When you start +1, you can do the same shit you did before, and nothing has changed if you want to start the other +1 as soon as the first +1 is done. When you go to +2, nothing has changed since the +25 mineral difference cannot be converted to something of value. Shield: This is where the difference comes into play, but if you're getting shields (esp. against terran), you're kinda retarded anyway. There's little to no value in this upgrade if taken over ground or armor. | ||
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gatorling
United States30 Posts
Eg - reducing zealot cost by 25 min would have a massive impact | ||
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Warzilla
Czech Republic311 Posts
On October 27 2011 00:01 ZeromuS wrote: While I never thought this would be necessary, the fact that it is dissappoints me. I saw the shield buffs and got excited. I saw the other buffs and thought "well thats kind of nice". I think the only people who are over reacting about this don't really understand SC2 and/or don't play protoss. Either way good on you for making a thread to educate and inform people  Yeah exactly this, you took it right out of my mouth man | ||
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Grovbolle
Denmark3813 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + just kidding, thanks for doing the math OP and put some sense into this discussion | ||
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xSixGeneralHan
United States528 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On October 27 2011 03:07 kobrakai wrote: Are you really trying to compare the effect that stim has on a unit, to the effect that +2/3 upgrades has? Are you really? Hahahahahahahahahaha It can be similar. +2/+3 are fucking huge differences, especially concerning armor. You ever experienced a Protoss timing attack as Terran, when Toss has +1 armor, Terran doesn't have +1 attack, Guardian shield + FF used, and Terran only has Stim + conc? Your marines and marauders are TICKLING the zealots. To the health, marines do 2 dmg, marauders do 6. Sentries start to perform decently as combat units vs stimmed marauders. | ||
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