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The Protoss Upgrade Buffs in Numbers
Should have been the Topic, I seem to have screwed that up however. My point still stands.
Though if an admin reads this, feel free to Change the Topic and erase these first three lines or only change the Topic 
As many of you already know, Patch 1.4.2 hit the PTR.
You can see and discuss all the changes in this thread.
I only want to discuss the Protoss Upgrade Buffs.
A lot of Terrans and Zergs feel that Protoss has gotten a huge buff and that Protoss now overall is so much stronger it might become OP due to the Changes.
Skip to the end if you are only interested in the results.
So what exactly changed?
Protoss Ground Armer, Protoss Ground Weapons and Protoss Shields!
Changelock of all the Protoss Upgrades:
+ Show Spoiler +The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 1 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 200/200.
The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 2 has been decreased to 225/225, down from 300/300.
The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 3 has been decreased to 300/300, down from 400/400.
The cost of Upgrade Ground Weapons Level 2 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 175/175.
The cost of Upgrade Ground Weapons Level 3 has been decreased to 200/200, down from 250/250.
The cost of Upgrade Ground Armor Level 2 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 175/175.
The cost of Upgrade Ground Armor Level 3 has been decreased to 200/200, down from 250/250.
Almost everyone agreed that the Shield changes were reasonable and necessary.
I will not discuss the changes the Shield Upgrade Buff brings, if you want to, feel free to do so I might steal something later if I find it worthy
So to finally get to the point:
People say that +2 Weapons and +2 Armor or +3Weapon/+3Armor Timing-Pushes will hit a lot harder and faster.
First of all, this is wrong. If I design my strategy around getting +2/+2 or +3/+3 as fast as possible I will have the resources saved so that I can constantly Upgrade. Therefore my timing-push should not hit any faster because of this patch, as the Upgrade time remains the same. This is regarding a push based on the Forges not being idle until I push.
It is true however that someone who has his build not designes around getting the upgrades asap may research them a little quicker as before due to the reduced cost.
If however, the Push hits faster because of the reduced cost it will not hit harder because I did not save resources since I just used them earlier, resulting in less mining time during the research resulting in overall less units at the time my Upgrades finish. Or if they finish about ~2-3 Seconds earlier the Unit count might remain the same.
But again a +X/+XTiming-Push in my eyes is designed to hit right as the Upgrades finish and to not have idle forges at any point in time.
Now, "the push hits harder".
It is true that resources saved in the Upgrades will get put into either Economy or Army(since I will get the same amount of tech for my timing push either way)
Lets first see the +2/+2 Timing change!
It is -25 Minerals and Gas per Upgrade, granting me a total of 50/50.
I can not afford any Unit with 50/50 except for a Probe.
However, with the excess Gas and Minerals I could replace a single Zealot with one Stalker and still have 25 Minerals left.(for one Interceptor lateron maybe?)
So lets see what happens if I get a Probe instead!
A Probe Mines 50 Minerals in 87 Seconds
The Upgrade takes 190 Seconds without Chronoboost, I estimate a maximum of 8 Chronoboosts off of 2 Nexi to get out the Upgrades asap (I think this is a fair number, could be wrong however, I will change the calculation if you prove me wrong) One Chronoboosts speeds Production by 50% for 20 Seconds, hereby shortening the production by 10 Seconds if completely used.
190 - (80:2) = 190 -40 = 150
The Probe takes 20 Seconds to build so I have 130 Seconds of mining time.
So I have 130 Seconds of mining time, Note that this will result in less than 100 Minerals, still not giving me enough excess resources for a single Zealot.
Summary for +2/+2:
+ Show Spoiler +I can replace a single Zealot with one Stalker and that is IT!
Now to get on +3/+3
I have now saved 150/150.
That is quite a bit more than for +2/+2 lets say I would have 25 unused Minerals at the time my push hits, then I can afford 1 Stalker 1 Sentry for my 150/150 OR
1 Zealot and 1 Templar (this works even without the excess 25 Minerals).
If I put all 150 Minerals in Probes, it will grant me roughly 80 Minerals from the +2/+2 Probe to my 100 at +3/+3+
Again I am doing this push off of 2 Bases or more, allowing me to produce both Probes at the same time!
+3 = 220 Seconds
220-50(Chronoboost)-20(Probe production) = 150 Seconds Mining Time = ~ 165 Minerals.
So, if I play 100% perfectly I would have an excess of 250 Minerals and 150 Gas at the time I finish +3+3
Summary for +3/+3:
+ Show Spoiler +You have either
+1 Zealot +1 HT; +1 Sentry +1 Stalker right as you start +3/+3.
or
2 Stalkers; 2 Zealots and a Templar; one Immortal(actually the Immortal Production starts right as +3+3 finishs); one DT and one Zealot; 2 Observers(the second Observer starts right as +3+3 finishs) and 2 Zealots; 1 Observer 1 Stalker 1 Zealot as you finish +3/+3.
To sum everything up:
+2/+2 Timing push will be able to replace one Zealot with one Stalker due to the excess Minerals
+3/+3 Timing push will be able to add:
+1 Zealot +1 HT; +1 Sentry +1 Stalker right as you start +3/+3
or
2 Stalkers; 2 Zealots and a Templar; one Immortal; one DT and one Zealot; 2 Observers and 2 Zealots; 1 Observer 1 Stalker 1 Zealot as you finish +3/+3 (Remember that only Gateway units instantly spawn, making the Immortal and second Observer useless for your push)
I now let you judge wether this will completely break the game or not, remember though that this only applies if you Macro is 100% perfect the entire game, otherwise the Units that you can produce as +3+3 finishs will be less.
Remember that this Thread is aimed to discuss the Changes, not the differences in the Upgread Mechanics of all the races.
Edit: some minor cosmetic changes and I further addressed the idea of a timing push now hitting faster.
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thank you for taking the time to do the math on this.
people are definitely overreacting...........
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Thank you for adding some sanity to this discussion.
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If something is cheaper than before, it means you can afford it earlier than before with the same builds. You get it faster.
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I'm a Terran and I don't think it's that big of a deal. They hardly changed the amount of each upgrade. At least now everyone can see the actual numbers. Thanks!
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I'll admit that when i saw the changes i nearly swore quite loudly. Tbh the shield buff as to be expected but am still not sure about the weapon/armor upgrades, it will mean that the more toss players will be upgrading, and i like having better upgrades then my opponent! 
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On October 26 2011 23:27 Kira__ wrote:
If something is cheaper than before, it means you can afford it earlier than before with the same builds. You get it faster.
If you refer to getting the Upgrades faster:
As I already wrote in the OP this regards +2/+2 and +3/+3 timing pushes, those are evolved to have +2/+2 or +3/+3 ready asap and have saved up enough resources to continously Upgrade, otherwise they would be just bad imo. Since the research time remains the same a timing push should hit at the exact same second.
If you refer to getting additional Units/units faster:
That is exactly what the OP is all about
Thank you for posting without reading; People like you really make every Forum a little more worthless.
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Thank you for the mathematical analysis on this, I think it will help put more people at ease regarding how "big" this change actually is.
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On October 26 2011 23:27 Kira__ wrote:
If something is cheaper than before, it means you can afford it earlier than before with the same builds. You get it faster.
It's true if we'r talking about forge cost, but since we'r not, it won't come a LOT earlier.
Talking about "perfect" build where we almost don't have extra resources because we'r getting gateways/robo for ++ push, then we'll get the forge at the same time as before, therefore we should have same resources when it finishes.
Assuming this, we'll have some extra money, which we'll dump into army. That's the point of this thread I think...
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It is not a huge change, but it does provide more incentive for Protoss to get shield upgrades, which in my opinion are underused. A player with good unit control can maximize the effectiveness of shield upgrades much more than armor, and with the EMP nerf, shield upgrades will be even more viable.
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It's funny to see how Zergs and Terrans go apeshit because Protoss saves the gamebreaking 50/50 for 2/2. The overreacting is ridiculous and I hope those people read this and understand that it's a subtle change and not the doom of Terran and Zerg.
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Half a zealot. OMGGGGGGGG. Lol.
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well it will allow timing pushes to be executed a few seconds earlier, with the same strength then before, or a few seconds later with a bit extra. But thats not the main point of the change, cost changes will always affect timings, saying something different is just ignoring some factors.
The real change is the shield upgrade, making it a viable upgrade if you use stargate units along with ground units.
And the other change is to encourage protoss players to get upgrades, since many don't get a forge unless they want canons and wonder why they lose with a 0/0 army (mostly like zerg some time ago).
And a +2 timing push doesn't have to start +3 asap, you can also commit the resources into more units to be more effective with your push and delay the +3 for some extra damage (which is not a bad thing to do)
As to the changes all i have to say. shield upgrade is evil now 150 and it will affect buildings, air units and ground units, I will skip +1 armor now in most of my builds :p. And the prism got even more imbalanced now with their shields.
PS: its not terran or zerg that doesn't like this change, its mostly the upgraders the people that love to win with having an upgrade advantage and then getting the rant of their opponents of an imbalanced game.
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As much as I jumped for joy when I saw this, it really is quite a small change. What I think it allows for is some more wiggle room in the build. As you must build quite a few gas heavy units on two bases and must also tech, finding room for upgrades is rather burdensome.
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On October 26 2011 23:56 Jerubaal wrote:
As much as I jumped for joy when I saw this, it really is quite a small change. What I think it allows for is some more wiggle room in the build. As you must build quite a few gas heavy units on two bases and must also tech, finding room for upgrades is rather burdensome.
yeah, its just to give it a little bit more wiggling room to the strategy.
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Canada13389 Posts
While I never thought this would be necessary, the fact that it is dissappoints me. I saw the shield buffs and got excited. I saw the other buffs and thought "well thats kind of nice".
I think the only people who are over reacting about this don't really understand SC2 and/or don't play protoss. Either way good on you for making a thread to educate and inform people
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Menial changes. People are just freaking out because something changed. Nothing to see here, move along.
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I imagine that this buff is in response to P armies being so resource heavy in comparison to Z orT. This will only slightly help P incentivize getting an upgrade while paying for say a colossus or an immortal.
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Yeah I was watching sotg and I think tyler pointed that out. People on the PTR thread are wayyyyyyyy overreacting to this change (wah wah zvp, tvp imba). Call me bias, but I think this will have little effect on the match ups.
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People need to realize this is reducing the cost of an UPGRADE, which is a one time deal. You spend the resource to upgrade it once, unless for some reason your forge gets killed midway through it, but then you get the majority of the resources back anyways. The amount of money saved is exactly how much they reduced it by, which is more or less one stalker and one sentry worth of resources.
Its not like they are reducing zealot costs by 10 or something. At worst this change shaves off a few seconds off of timing attacks.
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It doesn't seem like a big deal, but numbers can be made to lie and you can use different numbers to make a different point.
If toss want to do a 2/2 timing with gateway and robo units it will cost them 500/500 to upgrade their entire army to 2/2.
If Terran want to do a 2/2 timing with MM+Tank it would cost 1050/1050 (without the armory) to upgrade their entire army.
When you look at it that way, it can be made to look like a much bigger deal. Upgrading the protoss ground army was already way cheaper than upgrading a Terran or Zerg ground army and quicker due to chronoboost. Personally I don't think the change will make too much difference, but its all about how you represent it.
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Thats not exactly accurate because protoss units to not take actual armor upgrades into account until they actually start taking non-shield damage. It would be a more accurate comparison to compare 2/2/2 protoss to a 2/2 bio + mech. Protoss armor upgrades are not fully effective like terran armor upgrades.
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On October 26 2011 23:54 FeyFey wrote:
PS: its not terran or zerg that doesn't like this change, its mostly the upgraders the people that love to win with having an upgrade advantage and then getting the rant of their opponents of an imbalanced game.
LOL This is so true. I always have gotten pissed off at my opponents when they get 3/3 super fast but still have enough resources to pressure me throughout the game, so I can barely hold on even if I only have 0 or 1 forges only upgrading sporadically.
Doesn't happen often because Terrans like to all in every game but 3/3 stimmed marines are still OP 
EDIT: Also for those of you who are unconvinced still that this wasn't a good change, think about your own races' upgrades for a minute. Terran ground units only have 2 upgrades at normal cost and Zerg have 3 with armor a bit more expensive, however Zerg's usually have a higher economy in the midgame and have less to spend their money (gas) and they generally use a composition that lends itself to only needing 2, e.x. roach hydra or ling baneling.
Protoss on the other hand, has 2 upgrades at normal cost, but their armor upgrade is not as effective as the other races, due to shields (At least 25% less effective, at most 50% less effective). It's the shield upgrade that has always been the problem. It costed twice as much as armor and had half the effectiveness, unless you are going for mass archons (Which is viable and why you see people upgrade shields on occasion).
While you could say that this is just an aspect of the race that is so and has always been so, I'd agree with you! But if you look at the math the only thing that 50/50 extra is going to make people want to do is upgrade more and upgrade faster. How is that a bad thing (Unless you're scared of 3/3/3 LOL)?
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On October 27 2011 00:33 dignity wrote:
Thats not exactly accurate because protoss units to not take actual armor upgrades into account until they actually start taking non-shield damage. It would be a more accurate comparison to compare 2/2/2 protoss to a 2/2 bio + mech. Protoss armor upgrades are not fully effective like terran armor upgrades.
I don't think getting a third forge is an option to get a +2+2+2/+3+3+3 Push since it would die to any sort of agression if you spend this amount of resources immediatelly, wich is why I did not mention +3+3+3/+2+2+2
On October 27 2011 00:26 emythrel wrote:
It doesn't seem like a big deal, but numbers can be made to lie and you can use different numbers to make a different point.
If toss want to do a 2/2 timing with gateway and robo units it will cost them 500/500 to upgrade their entire army to 2/2.
If Terran want to do a 2/2 timing with MM+Tank it would cost 1050/1050 (without the armory) to upgrade their entire army.
When you look at it that way, it can be made to look like a much bigger deal. Upgrading the protoss ground army was already way cheaper than upgrading a Terran or Zerg ground army and quicker due to chronoboost. Personally I don't think the change will make too much difference, but its all about how you represent it.
True, it seems like it is a lot less expensive to upgrade Protoss, but keep in mind that the Ground Armor only works on the "Health Hitpoints" while there is als "Shield Hitpoints" so the Ground Armour affects only 66% of a Zealot's HP and 50% of a Stalker's/sentry's HP
Also, the additional Shield Armor does not Stack with the initial Armor of a Unit. For Example a 3/3/3 Zealot will only have three Armor on his 50 Shield but will have four Armor on his 100 Health
Also this has nothing to do with the patch, that is just how the race works/has always worked.
I think it is fairly even if you take all of the above in account.
Because my Thread is aimed to discuss the change that 1.4.2 brings on the PTR I did not find it worthy to mention here.
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On October 27 2011 00:40 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 00:33 dignity wrote:
Thats not exactly accurate because protoss units to not take actual armor upgrades into account until they actually start taking non-shield damage. It would be a more accurate comparison to compare 2/2/2 protoss to a 2/2 bio + mech. Protoss armor upgrades are not fully effective like terran armor upgrades. I don't think getting a third forge is an option to get a +2+2+2/+3+3+3 Push since it would die to any sort of agression if you spend this amount of resources at once. Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 00:26 emythrel wrote:
It doesn't seem like a big deal, but numbers can be made to lie and you can use different numbers to make a different point.
If toss want to do a 2/2 timing with gateway and robo units it will cost them 500/500 to upgrade their entire army to 2/2.
If Terran want to do a 2/2 timing with MM+Tank it would cost 1050/1050 (without the armory) to upgrade their entire army.
When you look at it that way, it can be made to look like a much bigger deal. Upgrading the protoss ground army was already way cheaper than upgrading a Terran or Zerg ground army and quicker due to chronoboost. Personally I don't think the change will make too much difference, but its all about how you represent it. True, it seems like it is a lot less expensive to upgrade Protoss, but keep in mind that the Ground Armor only works on the "Health Hitpoints" while there is als "Shield Hitpoints" so the Ground Armour affects only 66% of a Zealot's HP and 50% of a Stalker's/sentry's HP Also this has nothing to do with the patch, that is just how the race works/has always worked. Because my Thread is aimed to discuss the change that 1.4.2 brings on the PTR I did find it worthy to mention here.
I was responding to emythrel above me. Your response to his post was pretty much a reiteration of my argument.
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The shield buff is the big thing here, I believe it will make the protoss army a bit more robust, which is obviously the intent. The reduced cost for the other upgrades is a nice bonus but that's about it.
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On October 26 2011 23:54 FeyFey wrote:
well it will allow timing pushes to be executed a few seconds earlier, with the same strength then before, or a few seconds later with a bit extra. But thats not the main point of the change, cost changes will always affect timings, saying something different is just ignoring some factors.
The real change is the shield upgrade, making it a viable upgrade if you use stargate units along with ground units.
And the other change is to encourage protoss players to get upgrades, since many don't get a forge unless they want canons and wonder why they lose with a 0/0 army (mostly like zerg some time ago).
And a +2 timing push doesn't have to start +3 asap, you can also commit the resources into more units to be more effective with your push and delay the +3 for some extra damage (which is not a bad thing to do)
As to the changes all i have to say. shield upgrade is evil now 150 and it will affect buildings, air units and ground units, I will skip +1 armor now in most of my builds :p. And the prism got even more imbalanced now with their shields..
Two parts:
1) timing pushes hit earlier. Read the OP before posting. At least the Intro...
2) You will get +1 Shield instead of +1 Armor.
This is a really tough one and depends 100% on your unit composition.
If you get a lot of ground forces +1 Armor still is way better since Zealots are affected at 66% of their health by +1 Armor, Stalkers and Sentries at 50% Health.
Also +1 Armor adds up to the existing Armor, with Guardian Shield this can be the difference between a Marine doing 3 or 2 damage per shot. Meaning that you take 1/3 of his DPS for 66% of a Zealot's health with less resources spent.
If you execute Stargate+Warpgate attacks it might actually be better. Though I really doubt it is.
On October 27 2011 00:52 K_Dilkington wrote:
The shield buff is the big thing here, I believe it will make the protoss army a bit more robust, which is obviously the intent. The reduced cost for the other upgrades is a nice bonus but that's about it.
That is exactly what this Thread is about.
But about 60 Sites of Posts instantly sprung up that only were filled with people flaming each other over the Imbalance of the new Weapon+Armor upgrades.
This is why I mades this thread in order to provide exact numbers so people know what they talk about.
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in terms of actual effects, its not impactful at all. The problem is definitely the philosphy that because toss upgrades are already far more efficient, they really don't need to be any cheaper too. Or at least, the attack upgrade should not be. With armor only applying to half the health of a unit, its debatable whether or not it should be the same as the other races. I'd say that the armor/ shield tradeoff is comparable to the bio/ mech armor trade that terran needs to do, and it being balanced with zerg from shield upgrades impacting all protoss units, not just ground/ air. Weapon upgrades however, should remain as more expensive, due to them effecting all gateway units, and all robo units.
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I disagree with the +2/+2 analysis. I think it lets the toss get 1 probe & replace a zealot with a stalker (if probe mines 25 minerals by the time the push comes the options aren't mutually exclusive).
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Very nice post, now let's just wish that everyone here would check this thread before making another one of those "Protoss are now OP" posts.
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You underline far too much in your OP, gives me a headache when reading... doesn't give you any more emphasis on points when every other thing is underlined/italicized or whatnot...
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Snipe a stalker. Balance out the upgrade "buff" ... lol
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When analyzing these upgrades, people seem to disregard how these upgrades are actually used.
These are, in my eyes, the common upgrades in each composition and they seem pretty balanced to me:
Protoss: (Most comps)Ground Attack, Ground armor (but it only affects ~2/3 of your total health OR you can buy a 3rd more expensive upgrade
Terran: (Bio +viking) Bio Attack, Bio armor, Air attack
(marine+tank) Bio attack, Bio Armor, Mech attack
They might get air armor in TvT, but that's a mirror.
Zerg: (Roach/Hydra/ Corruptor) Ranged Attack, Carapace, Possibly air attack
(Ling/bling/muta): Melee attack, carapace, air attack
Saying 'ground attack/armor covers more so it should cost more' is nice, but in the early game, when these things matter, Protoss has to get to a tech pretty darn quick and Terran doesn't. Protoss already has the burden of having to build tech and more expensive units.
EDIT: Well some people have already summarized what I've said in so many words, but I'll just reiterate that it's not worthwhile to just go 'but this upgrade + this upgrade costs this much!'.
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How are people overreacting tot his? You save under 25 minerals and 25 gas on level 2 and 50 minerals and 50 gas on level 3. That is huge? It literally makes no difference and the OP's numbers whether correct or not, show that very clearly. I hope you people realize Blizzard only added these changes as a 'why not' and as a way of satisfying protoss users who are considering switching races because of 1/1/1/ or whatever else protoss whine about these days. Anyone who actually understands the game realizes these upgrades will almost never make a difference in 99.9% of games. The only changes worth noting are EMP radius and shield change.
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The weapons/armor upgrades baffle me - but the shields make sense. I'm not sure why blizzard wanted to change the weapons/armor upgrade costs in the first place. In reality, I believe it'll only have a minor impact.
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On October 27 2011 01:54 Azzur wrote:
The weapons/armor upgrades baffle me - but the shields make sense. I'm not sure why blizzard wanted to change the weapons/armor upgrade costs in the first place. In reality, I believe it'll only have a minor impact.
I think most people are just mad about the philosophy behind the change more than the changes themselves.
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You get the upgrades faster than you previously would...that's what the huge deal is.
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On October 27 2011 00:15 dignity wrote:
People need to realize this is reducing the cost of an UPGRADE, which is a one time deal. You spend the resource to upgrade it once, unless for some reason your forge gets killed midway through it, but then you get the majority of the resources back anyways. The amount of money saved is exactly how much they reduced it by, which is more or less one stalker and one sentry worth of resources.
Its not like they are reducing zealot costs by 10 or something. At worst this change shaves off a few seconds off of timing attacks.
You get ALL of the resources back. You don't have to cancel the upgrade either.
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On October 27 2011 02:06 avilo wrote:
You get the upgrades faster than you previously would...that's what the huge deal is.
It's as if some omniscient entity foretold this.
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On October 27 2011 02:14 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 02:06 avilo wrote:
You get the upgrades faster than you previously would...that's what the huge deal is. It's as if some omniscient entity foretold this.
Ok sure, it is a little cheaper so you can start the upgrades maybe like... 3 seconds earlier.
-_-
Oh wait you stopped your army to kill off that scouting worker on your way over? 3 seconds gone!
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this is actually pretty big, now you can fit upgrades even more easily to your builds... terrans and zergs pretty fucking much have to go double evo or ebay. I don´t see the point in this... why should toss have cheaper upgrades than zerg and terran?
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On October 27 2011 02:21 KAmaKAsa wrote:
this is actually pretty big, now you can fit upgrades even more easily to your builds... terrans and zergs pretty fucking much have to go double evo or ebay. I don´t see the point in this... why should toss have cheaper upgrades than zerg and terran?
I thought we already established that protoss units costed more than the other 2 races? If you want to trade unit cost for more costly upgrades I think every toss in the world would rather take that.
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On October 27 2011 02:21 KAmaKAsa wrote:
this is actually pretty big, now you can fit upgrades even more easily to your builds... terrans and zergs pretty fucking much have to go double evo or ebay. I don´t see the point in this... why should toss have cheaper upgrades than zerg and terran?
It still costs 300 minerals to build two forges, and the cost saved on 2/2 is 50/50, so yes you can fit it in more easily, but it's not game breaking. Did you read the OP at all?
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Changing the Blue Flame Upgrade Icon made the Hellion so overpowered, I hate to think what decreasing upgrade costs by 50 minerals is about to do.
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On October 27 2011 02:06 avilo wrote:
You get the upgrades faster than you previously would...that's what the huge deal is.
Explain this to me....
If i build my 2 forges at the same time in 1.4.2 as i did in 1.4.1 (which i will because forge cost wasn't changed)
and i start my 1/1 as soon as my forges finish
and i start my 2/2 as soon as my 1/1 finishes
How in the world will i get my upgrades faster?
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On October 27 2011 02:21 KAmaKAsa wrote:
this is actually pretty big, now you can fit upgrades even more easily to your builds... terrans and zergs pretty fucking much have to go double evo or ebay. I don´t see the point in this... why should toss have cheaper upgrades than zerg and terran?
Stop crying you'll still get your 3-3 marauders way before we max our upgrades. We pour so much gas into the sentry its not even funny, so gimme a break. These changes make sense and maybe we'll finally see some evenly upgraded armies fight during the mid late game!
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On October 27 2011 02:29 stokes17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 02:06 avilo wrote:
You get the upgrades faster than you previously would...that's what the huge deal is. Explain this to me.... If i build my 2 forges at the same time in 1.4.2 as i did in 1.4.1 (which i will because forge cost wasn't changed) and i start my 1/1 as soon as my forges finish and i start my 2/2 as soon as my 1/1 finishes How in the world will i get my upgrades faster?
You will get your 12th stalker out faster. Duh.
Oh and I'm not sure if the OP had this info, but according to my calculations, it takes ~14 seconds (game time?) to mine 50 gas off of 2 geysers and ~9.3 seconds off of 3.
EDIT: I thought I was going to be a smarty pants and make a cute little chart of how much time these cost reductions would 'save' you, but then I realized that the only Level 1 Upgrade that was reduced was shield. Who gets shield first? You're going to be on at least 4 geysers by the time you start Ground Level 2. The time saved will be mere seconds.
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On October 27 2011 02:29 stokes17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 02:06 avilo wrote:
You get the upgrades faster than you previously would...that's what the huge deal is. Explain this to me.... If i build my 2 forges at the same time in 1.4.2 as i did in 1.4.1 (which i will because forge cost wasn't changed) and i start my 1/1 as soon as my forges finish and i start my 2/2 as soon as my 1/1 finishes How in the world will i get my upgrades faster?
I was just about to make the exact same post. Your upgrades do not come any faster you're just gonna have a little bit extra resources.
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People will always complain, even when you give them all the evidence that they are wrongly complaining.
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They added one range to the immortal and made the 1-1-1 build much weaker. So even little changes like taking some resources off upgrades could have huge consequences. If anything I think this just makes protoss-all-in timing attacks that much stronger which is not what the game or the race needed.
WTB long-term solutions ><
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On October 27 2011 02:29 stokes17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 02:06 avilo wrote:
You get the upgrades faster than you previously would...that's what the huge deal is. Explain this to me.... If i build my 2 forges at the same time in 1.4.2 as i did in 1.4.1 (which i will because forge cost wasn't changed) and i start my 1/1 as soon as my forges finish and i start my 2/2 as soon as my 1/1 finishes How in the world will i get my upgrades faster?
This is a little something I like to call Logic. Rarely used or seen, but when it is, it blows my fucking mind
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This patch allows you to switch one zealot for one stalker.
This must make protoss timing attacks gamebreaking.
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On October 27 2011 02:44 Talack wrote:
They added one range to the immortal and made the 1-1-1 build much weaker. So even little changes like taking some resources off upgrades could have huge consequences. If anything I think this just makes protoss-all-in timing attacks that much stronger which is not what the game or the race needed.
WTB long-term solutions ><
everyone will agree that one range is A HUGE BUFF (see roach, archon, void ray in beta, and now immortal)
But how is 50/50 at 2/2 and 150/150 at 3/3 anywhere remotely as huge? What possible HUGE consequences could occur from having 50/50 more resources available for a 2/2 timing attack?
Yes a Protoss 2/2 allin timing attack (which actually rarely happens... usually 2/2 is used to secure a 3rd because attacking a terren in a defensive position is usually a bad call) will have 50/50 more resources to be allocated to econ/units/or additional tech. Which as the OP stated translates to about 1 more stalker instead of a zealot (idn if i even want to make that trade )
can we please stop being so sensationalist? Pretty Please???
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Perfect way to show the ridiculous overreaction of some to a small protoss buff. I liked all of your post, but this part almost made me spill me coffee and still have 25 Minerals left.(for one Interceptor lateron maybe?)
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I don't think people are mostly concerned with the amount of units Protoss will be able to make due to the decrease in the upgrades costs. I'm more worried about how the actual upgrades will affect the game because they can already double forge and get super fast upgrades with chronoboost. Blizzard is mainly making the hellion transformer in HotS to deal with 3-3 chargelots and they basically just made it that much easier for Protoss to get to that point.
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On October 27 2011 02:51 KobyKat wrote:
I don't think people are mostly concerned with the amount of units Protoss will be able to make due to the decrease in the upgrades costs. I'm more worried about how the actual upgrades will affect the game because they can already double forge and get super fast upgrades with chronoboost. Blizzard is mainly making the hellion transformer in HotS to deal with 3-3 chargelots and they basically just made it that much easier for Protoss to get to that point.
so the extra resources we get from the decreased upgrade cost is not your concern?
.....that's literally the ONLY thing that changed .......wtf
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The funny thing is that it almost would have been worth upgrading the new Shields Level 1 over the old Ground Armor 3, but it won't be with both changed. Still, after everything is upgraded, getting that +1 to shields might be worth it.
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Ok instead of calling out overreacting people.... I want to pose a question to those sane and educated of us..... Will these changes make a 0/1/1 rush (and 0/2/2) more viable over the standard 1/1?
I ask this with consideration to the EMP nerf (which is, in a way, a shield buff). It seems like going shields with armor may increase the longevity of a gateway army more so than +1 weapons increases the potency.
Thoughts?
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I find it strange a lot of the mineral/gas costs are being so seriously discussed by non-pro players, as if they don't constantly bank far more all the time after the early game.
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On October 26 2011 23:21 rEalGuapo wrote:
A lot of Terrans and Zergs feel that Protoss has gotten a huge buff and that Protoss now overall is so much stronger it might become OP due to the Changes.
Do people really think this? I haven't been paying attention to the reaction to this change because to me it seemed almost negligible. It's like when slavaging bunkers got changed from 100% to 75% mineral return. It changes a very small amount of resource availability but ultimately does nothing to the overall strength of the race.
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Imagine if blizzard make stim and combat shield 50/50 instead of 100/100, the whole world would be freaking out, and there would be no real difference. It's the same effect with protoss upgrades.
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Please note that alongside this buff, warpgate has been nerfed by a full 20 seconds in a previous patch, thus bringing P back to about where it was in the midgame before the WG nerf and giving us an advantage in holding off tech all-ins like Hydra busts and 1-1-1 that the earlier warpgate gave to us. One of the major problems P has is getting to the tier 3 that we need to compete on equal footing with equivalent T3 compositions from the other races, because our gateway is simply not as good in open fields as Zerglings, Roaches, Marines, and Marauders are when complimented by T2 tech. That's why you'd always see blink stalkers vs. Z; they were the only way to be cost effective vs. Roaches, and could hold their own with FFs against lings and then retreat.
Also please remember that before this patch, it literally cost almost double what it cost T or Z to fully upgrade our units, because they only have attack and carapace requirements.
The shield cost buff is definitely an Archon buff, and now instead of being an empty button to be researched on principle when you have 3000 unspent resources, you can actually use it in a planned strategy, thus diversifying the way the game is played. Its also an interesting buff to blink-stalkers, another nerfed unit, because blinkstalkers regenerate a lot of shield with good usage.
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On October 27 2011 03:04 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
Imagine if blizzard make stim and combat shield 50/50 instead of 100/100, the whole world would be freaking out, and there would be no real difference. It's the same effect with protoss upgrades.
Are you really trying to compare the effect that stim has on a unit, to the effect that +2/3 upgrades has?
Are you really?
Hahahahahahahahahaha
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On October 27 2011 03:07 kobrakai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 03:04 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
Imagine if blizzard make stim and combat shield 50/50 instead of 100/100, the whole world would be freaking out, and there would be no real difference. It's the same effect with protoss upgrades. Are you really trying to compare the effect that stim has on a unit, to the effect that +2/3 upgrades has? Are you really? Hahahahahahahahahaha
His point is clear and easy to understand. The slight reduction in cost doesn't have a large effect on the game. They didn't change the effect or research time.
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On October 27 2011 03:07 kobrakai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 03:04 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
Imagine if blizzard make stim and combat shield 50/50 instead of 100/100, the whole world would be freaking out, and there would be no real difference. It's the same effect with protoss upgrades. Are you really trying to compare the effect that stim has on a unit, to the effect that +2/3 upgrades has? Are you really? Hahahahahahahahahaha
No, but im trying to contribute to the thread, unlike you obviously.
The point is that the cost of an upgrade isn't a big deal.
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I'd rather see the numbers based on 2-forge pushes.
In the current game, getting 2 forges (early on at least), seems to take too much money away from my army. I'd like to see if this changes with the new patch.
I love big upgrade-based gateway play, so I'm still happy ^_^, even a free 50/50 is still FREE! :D
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Lol 3/3 timings?? O.o
I'd be more worried about +2 blink all in hitting sooner or something. Which I don't even think is a concern. This change is meant to make protoss upgrades fit into the overarcing plans better. You will always have people who play greedy and crazy sacrifice units in order to get fast as hell upgrades as protoss. This doesn't effect that really. Zergs and terrans upgrades fit better into the overall order of the build so this change for protoss is meant to make it easier and more affordable to work your upgrades into your plans.
:D
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On October 27 2011 03:04 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
Imagine if blizzard make stim and combat shield 50/50 instead of 100/100, the whole world would be freaking out, and there would be no real difference. It's the same effect with protoss upgrades.
Well your Stim and combat shield is a lot earlier available than +2/+2 for Protoss, without needing to add extra buildings. So overall the changes would be very different. You propose to safe 100/100 on two Upgrades that make the unit like 80% better and are available the instant you have the buildings.
The movespeed bonus given through stim makes MM deal 400% more damage against Zealot with perfect micro (I think you have 5 stims to micro away but are then left with only 5 HP on Marines and like 1 on Marauders)
1.4.2 Proposes to safe 50/50 on Upgrades that depending hugely on the situation make units between 8-10% better (that is not accurate because it is incredible hard to measure and depends on a million factors but the DPS is boosted by about 7ish% for Zealot/Stalker and the Armor makes them only survive a little longer vs certain units, also does not apply on shield)
So yeah, it would be a huge deal. Remember to save the 50/50 for +2 +2 you need to get +1 +1 for the same costs first.
On October 27 2011 03:24 VPGeneralHans wrote:
Lol 3/3 timings?? O.o
I'd be more worried about +2 blink all in hitting sooner or something. Which I don't even think is a concern. This change is meant to make protoss upgrades fit into the overarcing plans better. You will always have people who play greedy and crazy sacrifice units in order to get fast as hell upgrades as protoss. This doesn't effect that really. Zergs and terrans upgrades fit better into the overall order of the build so this change for protoss is meant to make it easier and more affordable to work your upgrades into your plans.
:D
This Thread is a reaction to hundreds of people going crazy on the PTR thread over how imbalanced Protoss is with +3+3 now.
Imagening you rush for +3+3 is the most useful way to point out the key differences.
I mean if you say it is 25/25 cheaper that does not sound impressive at all. People argued that you now have so strong timing pushes with this.
well the +2 Blink Stalker timing will now effectively have half a Probe more, if you base the attack timing on when +2 finishes.
You have to spent 25 Gas less. 6 Probes on one base mine 228 Gas per minute. so you can actually afford it about 6 Seconds earlier. Now you may say "These six seconds are a big deal!" In some games you might be right. But that logic only applies if you expect your opponent to otherwise have spent 25 Gas too much at the point +1 finishes so that he has to wait 6 seconds after +1 in order to start +2 in other words if his built was not perfected.
I feel like that at the level where people make that a huge mistake (delaying the key upgrade the entire build evolves around) those 6 seconds will not make that much of a difference, because other mistakes will be made too that have a much higher impact. For example throwing away one Stalker carlessly early will have your push delayed by 12 Seconds if you have to remake it.
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This change is a placebo more than anything else. The reduction in the prices are very negligible, pulling workers for a second would cost you more than this reduction in upgrades.
I still think it's really dumb though. Double forge was already a viable strategy, reducing upgrades really did nothing, well except for the shield upgrades.
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On October 27 2011 03:04 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
Imagine if blizzard make stim and combat shield 50/50 instead of 100/100, the whole world would be freaking out, and there would be no real difference. It's the same effect with protoss upgrades.
That's different, you're comparing different parts in the game. You can get stim at like the 6 min mark on 1/2 base when your economy is still weak. When you get 2/2 for Protoss, you would already have a full 2 base economy where 50/50 is very negligible.
Oops, sorry for double post.
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This change was meant to ease the burden of double forge on the protoss player.
Like you said, it isn't going to change anything, but it will make that style much more appealing.
The decrease in cost for +3/+3 isn't enough to break any matchup, but its enough to balance them IMO. Going for fast upgrades was a really fine line in 1.4 since +3/+3 cost so much. There were timings where you did need that extra immortal or HT to stop a push that Protoss will now have, but only if their macro is spot on.
All in all, a desirable change.
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On October 27 2011 03:07 kobrakai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 03:04 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
Imagine if blizzard make stim and combat shield 50/50 instead of 100/100, the whole world would be freaking out, and there would be no real difference. It's the same effect with protoss upgrades. Are you really trying to compare the effect that stim has on a unit, to the effect that +2/3 upgrades has? Are you really? Hahahahahahahahahaha
Actually... His point isn't that at all... The change is so insignificant that it won't matter.
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On October 27 2011 03:29 K3Nyy wrote:
This change is a placebo more than anything else. The reduction in the prices are very negligible, pulling workers for a second would cost you more than this reduction in upgrades.
I still think it's really dumb though. Double forge was already a viable strategy, reducing upgrades really did nothing, well except for the shield upgrades.
The one thing that this does is make Players aware of the fact that Protoss has the "best"(that is arguable) Upgrades.
This maybe result in more Protoss researching those Upgrades wich will result in the fact that Protoss gets played the way it should be.
Protoss then has a super high-tech Army that has really strong but fewer Units. Now 20 Supply of Protoss can withstand 30 Supply Zerg more easily.
So if you play Protoss you will actually play more Protoss than Starcraft2 (Imagine all races were exactly the same. You would play "Starcraft" not Protoss, since there is no difference)
I love the Patch and even though at higher level it will change literally nothing (come on, MC or HuK will not change anything due to the +25 Minerals and Gas) it might change the feeling of the race and ther lower level playstyle.
And that I find is really awesome!
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As a zerg, it doesn't frighten me in the least. I will still dominate P the same as always. Thanks for posting some data so all the doomsday folk can quiet down a bit.
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Whoever says the upgrades come earlier is a fucking moron and doesn't know the game. You cut things to get the upgrades sooner, the research time is the same and the cb accrual time hasn't changed, neither has forge build time.
Ground or Armor +1 to +3: When you start +1 whatever, you can build whatever you did before to make sure you have 150/150 when +1 finishes to start +2, nothing has changed. The extra 25 minerals cannot be used at all. When you cb your upgrade and go for +3, you can make the same stuff before and time it so you have enough for +3 as soon as +2 is done, except now you can make a probe in addition to whatever you made before.
Alternate ground/armor: When you start +1, you can do the same shit you did before, and nothing has changed if you want to start the other +1 as soon as the first +1 is done. When you go to +2, nothing has changed since the +25 mineral difference cannot be converted to something of value.
Shield: This is where the difference comes into play, but if you're getting shields (esp. against terran), you're kinda retarded anyway. There's little to no value in this upgrade if taken over ground or armor.
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I agree a very small change. The biggest thing to note us that upgrades are a one time cost so you get to save 50/50 over the length of the match. Reduction in unit costs have a much higher impact especially staple units since the cost is reoccurring.
Eg - reducing zealot cost by 25 min would have a massive impact
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On October 27 2011 00:01 ZeromuS wrote:While I never thought this would be necessary, the fact that it is dissappoints me. I saw the shield buffs and got excited. I saw the other buffs and thought "well thats kind of nice". I think the only people who are over reacting about this don't really understand SC2 and/or don't play protoss. Either way good on you for making a thread to educate and inform people
Yeah exactly this, you took it right out of my mouth man
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Protoss will be so IMBA after this patch :D
+ Show Spoiler +just kidding, thanks for doing the math OP and put some sense into this discussion
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You guys read way too much into the math calculating that it saves half a probe and stuff, it just fits your upgrades into your build order a little easier now, tis all
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On October 27 2011 03:07 kobrakai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 03:04 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
Imagine if blizzard make stim and combat shield 50/50 instead of 100/100, the whole world would be freaking out, and there would be no real difference. It's the same effect with protoss upgrades. Are you really trying to compare the effect that stim has on a unit, to the effect that +2/3 upgrades has? Are you really? Hahahahahahahahahaha
It can be similar. +2/+3 are fucking huge differences, especially concerning armor. You ever experienced a Protoss timing attack as Terran, when Toss has +1 armor, Terran doesn't have +1 attack, Guardian shield + FF used, and Terran only has Stim + conc? Your marines and marauders are TICKLING the zealots.
To the health, marines do 2 dmg, marauders do 6. Sentries start to perform decently as combat units vs stimmed marauders.
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IMO the problem with protoss is that it is weak when it ISNT in a ball
it is pretty good when it is in the ball
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if we reduced stim's cost to 50/50, hey that's only 1 more marine or scv. but are you willing to accept such a stim buff?
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United States5162 Posts
On October 27 2011 06:50 rauk wrote:
if we reduced stim's cost to 50/50, hey that's only 1 more marine or scv. but are you willing to accept such a stim buff?
That's a much bigger change as rushing for stim can be done much quicker then rushing for lvl 2/3 upgrades for toss.
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On October 27 2011 06:50 rauk wrote:
if we reduced stim's cost to 50/50, hey that's only 1 more marine or scv. but are you willing to accept such a stim buff?
What? did you just compared the availability of stim with lv2 upgrades?
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its not really the biggest deal but damn dude, I already feel like gateway timing pushes with +x are too good in pvz... At least the +1 isnt buffed so much. I know its for PvT tho. u guys get the shaft with EMP.
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Nice to see the iron hammer of math and reason smashing down the over-emotional whiners.
Although I do wonder how much free time you have considering you bothered to do this much math for a relatively simple issue.
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If blizzard made +2/+2 upgrades free, do you think thats equivalent to 2 stalkers and some gas at the timing push?
You need to understand that units have more value ealier in time. A player need to allocate a percentage of resources to make units for defence or offence. The earlier they have the unit, the more valuable the unit is.
A player need to allocate a certain amout of their total income to units in order to survive or feel comfortable enough to survive. They will then save the remaining resources until they for an upgrade. When a player first starts an upgrade, thats the time it took them to save up enough money for that upgrade. Therefore, by cutting the upgrade cost from 100 to 75, the upgrade can be started when your "excess" money hits 75, which can be much sooner.
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On October 27 2011 08:15 ljdljd wrote:
If blizzard made +2/+2 upgrades free, do you think thats equivalent to 2 stalkers and some gas at the timing push?
You need to understand that units have more value ealier in time. A player need to allocate a percentage of resources to make units for defence or offence. The earlier they have the unit, the more valuable the unit is.
A player need to allocate a certain amout of their total income to units in order to survive or feel comfortable enough to survive. They will then save the remaining resources until they for an upgrade. When a player first starts an upgrade, thats the time it took them to save up enough money for that upgrade. Therefore, by cutting the upgrade cost from 100 to 75, the upgrade can be started when your "excess" money hits 75, which can be much sooner.
yes, it equals 2 stalkers and 2 sentries, but that was not the case, why the hell are you using a 350/350 buff to compare with a 50/50 buff???
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The problem isn't that it's going to break the game, the problem is that it's unnecessary and there is no reason for Blizzard to do it. Protoss already has the advantage with upgrades due to Chronoboost, they don't need some sort of incentive for getting more upgrades.
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On October 27 2011 10:35 The Final Boss wrote:
The problem isn't that it's going to break the game, the problem is that it's unnecessary and there is no reason for Blizzard to do it. Protoss already has the advantage with upgrades due to Chronoboost, they don't need some sort of incentive for getting more upgrades.
Blizzard might be trying to encourage more double forge play. IMO double forge is one of the safest ways to get through the mid-game on even footing with a Terran. Combined with the ghost nerf, if you spread well, they should be far less scary when there's just 2 of them(average 2base stim+1 ghost push).
I do agree though that it's a bit superfluous. I didn't really see the need for this buff.
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On October 27 2011 08:15 ljdljd wrote:
If blizzard made +2/+2 upgrades free, do you think thats equivalent to 2 stalkers and some gas at the timing push?
You need to understand that units have more value ealier in time. A player need to allocate a percentage of resources to make units for defence or offence. The earlier they have the unit, the more valuable the unit is.
A player need to allocate a certain amout of their total income to units in order to survive or feel comfortable enough to survive. They will then save the remaining resources until they for an upgrade. When a player first starts an upgrade, thats the time it took them to save up enough money for that upgrade. Therefore, by cutting the upgrade cost from 100 to 75, the upgrade can be started when your "excess" money hits 75, which can be much sooner.
The change does not make the upgrade available a lot earlier if it is 150/150 instead of 175/175 If I am at about 100/150 I will have to wait for 50 Minerals mined instead of 75.
It is true that a Unit's value is higher the earlier it is in the game(in general, this changes ofc with the amount of resources left on the map etc. etc.) But, if I am at 100 Minerals and 140 Gas, I will either decide that I need another Unit or that I can wait a little for my Upgrade.
The decision wether I need an additional Unit to survive or not has nothing to do with the cost!!
And as I wrote, this might give lower level players the idea of Upgrading their Units more. Which would influence the Protoss gameplay in a direction that is more Protossy. Namely: fewer elite Units!
150 Gas instead of 175 Gas is not gamechanging, since a +2 Upgrade requires a Forge, that brings no other advantage except for Cannons and +1 to be already researched, that pretty much restricts the point at which you can get +2 entirely. The cost are not as interesting for your decision when to research.
The cost are only determinating whether or not it is a good idea to get +2 in time for a certain push (again making this push come 3 seconds earlier but losing 3 seconds worth of mining time, thus hitting earlier with less units wich you can always make happen[cutting units for an earlier attack that is])
On October 27 2011 10:35 The Final Boss wrote:
The problem isn't that it's going to break the game, the problem is that it's unnecessary and there is no reason for Blizzard to do it. Protoss already has the advantage with upgrades due to Chronoboost, they don't need some sort of incentive for getting more upgrades.
First of all I made this Thread because hundreds of People screamed this Patch would make Toss unbeatable... Just wanted them to know what they talk about.
Saying Protoss has an Upgrade advantage because of Chronoboost is like saying Terran has one due to MULES. The Upgrades get cheaper if you calculate one or two Super-Harvesters that are almost free.
Zerg has a huge Upgrade advantage, I mean they do not need extra Production buildings, they can spawn 20 Units off of their 3 Mining bases with one tech building. Saves a lot of money for your Upgrades compared to building 3 Factories, doesn't it?
No. All 3 Races have a Macro speciality. Only because Chronoboost on a Forge can be seen compared to a MULE, that works in the Mineral Line, doesn't mean it is infinitely stronger.
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I said this from the start. I salute you for the effort you put into this. Some people really need to see the numbers before they are capable to think straight. And even then there are people who don't believe the numbers and believe in forces beyond these numbers that will make these changes imbalanced.
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You're right, the upgrade cost changes will have a very small impact on protoss strength. People fail to realize the upgrades are purchased at most once throughout the game.
It's not like the cost of zealots or stalkers has decreased or that their hit points have increased. That is what you can call major changes as the benefit of those buffs build up throughout the game.
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im terran and i feel fine about the changes they made... as long as they dont make the building time of the upgrades shorter. Cause a shorter upgrade time + chrono would be to much! But the lower prics are ok imo! Also i dont think the way they nerfed the ghost now isnt the right one, but at least they try to deal with the problem...
at least protoss can now start upgrading the shield against zerg, coz imo the shield upgrade against Terran is still unusable, cause in lategame 3 to 5 ghosts emps still hit alot even with the range nerf...
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On October 26 2011 23:46 mizU wrote:
Half a zealot. OMGGGGGGGG. Lol. hahaha. this is hilarious. made me imagine frodo in a zealot costume.
i agree that this isn't game breaking. funny how many non-protoss players overreacted to this in the first place.
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On October 27 2011 09:52 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 08:15 ljdljd wrote:
If blizzard made +2/+2 upgrades free, do you think thats equivalent to 2 stalkers and some gas at the timing push?
You need to understand that units have more value ealier in time. A player need to allocate a percentage of resources to make units for defence or offence. The earlier they have the unit, the more valuable the unit is.
A player need to allocate a certain amout of their total income to units in order to survive or feel comfortable enough to survive. They will then save the remaining resources until they for an upgrade. When a player first starts an upgrade, thats the time it took them to save up enough money for that upgrade. Therefore, by cutting the upgrade cost from 100 to 75, the upgrade can be started when your "excess" money hits 75, which can be much sooner. yes, it equals 2 stalkers and 2 sentries, but that was not the case, why the hell are you using a 350/350 buff to compare with a 50/50 buff???
Ok I'll take my +2/+2 upgraded 150 food army against your 0/0 army with a 2 more stalkers and lets see who wins....
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thanks for the post, thats what i thought when i saw it. there's still people in this thread posting shit cos they arent reading the op properly. sigh
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EPT
