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It doesn't seem like a big deal, but numbers can be made to lie and you can use different numbers to make a different point.
If toss want to do a 2/2 timing with gateway and robo units it will cost them 500/500 to upgrade their entire army to 2/2.
If Terran want to do a 2/2 timing with MM+Tank it would cost 1050/1050 (without the armory) to upgrade their entire army.
When you look at it that way, it can be made to look like a much bigger deal. Upgrading the protoss ground army was already way cheaper than upgrading a Terran or Zerg ground army and quicker due to chronoboost. Personally I don't think the change will make too much difference, but its all about how you represent it.
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Thats not exactly accurate because protoss units to not take actual armor upgrades into account until they actually start taking non-shield damage. It would be a more accurate comparison to compare 2/2/2 protoss to a 2/2 bio + mech. Protoss armor upgrades are not fully effective like terran armor upgrades.
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On October 26 2011 23:54 FeyFey wrote:
PS: its not terran or zerg that doesn't like this change, its mostly the upgraders the people that love to win with having an upgrade advantage and then getting the rant of their opponents of an imbalanced game.
LOL This is so true. I always have gotten pissed off at my opponents when they get 3/3 super fast but still have enough resources to pressure me throughout the game, so I can barely hold on even if I only have 0 or 1 forges only upgrading sporadically.
Doesn't happen often because Terrans like to all in every game but 3/3 stimmed marines are still OP 
EDIT: Also for those of you who are unconvinced still that this wasn't a good change, think about your own races' upgrades for a minute. Terran ground units only have 2 upgrades at normal cost and Zerg have 3 with armor a bit more expensive, however Zerg's usually have a higher economy in the midgame and have less to spend their money (gas) and they generally use a composition that lends itself to only needing 2, e.x. roach hydra or ling baneling.
Protoss on the other hand, has 2 upgrades at normal cost, but their armor upgrade is not as effective as the other races, due to shields (At least 25% less effective, at most 50% less effective). It's the shield upgrade that has always been the problem. It costed twice as much as armor and had half the effectiveness, unless you are going for mass archons (Which is viable and why you see people upgrade shields on occasion).
While you could say that this is just an aspect of the race that is so and has always been so, I'd agree with you! But if you look at the math the only thing that 50/50 extra is going to make people want to do is upgrade more and upgrade faster. How is that a bad thing (Unless you're scared of 3/3/3 LOL)?
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On October 27 2011 00:33 dignity wrote:
Thats not exactly accurate because protoss units to not take actual armor upgrades into account until they actually start taking non-shield damage. It would be a more accurate comparison to compare 2/2/2 protoss to a 2/2 bio + mech. Protoss armor upgrades are not fully effective like terran armor upgrades.
I don't think getting a third forge is an option to get a +2+2+2/+3+3+3 Push since it would die to any sort of agression if you spend this amount of resources immediatelly, wich is why I did not mention +3+3+3/+2+2+2
On October 27 2011 00:26 emythrel wrote:
It doesn't seem like a big deal, but numbers can be made to lie and you can use different numbers to make a different point.
If toss want to do a 2/2 timing with gateway and robo units it will cost them 500/500 to upgrade their entire army to 2/2.
If Terran want to do a 2/2 timing with MM+Tank it would cost 1050/1050 (without the armory) to upgrade their entire army.
When you look at it that way, it can be made to look like a much bigger deal. Upgrading the protoss ground army was already way cheaper than upgrading a Terran or Zerg ground army and quicker due to chronoboost. Personally I don't think the change will make too much difference, but its all about how you represent it.
True, it seems like it is a lot less expensive to upgrade Protoss, but keep in mind that the Ground Armor only works on the "Health Hitpoints" while there is als "Shield Hitpoints" so the Ground Armour affects only 66% of a Zealot's HP and 50% of a Stalker's/sentry's HP
Also, the additional Shield Armor does not Stack with the initial Armor of a Unit. For Example a 3/3/3 Zealot will only have three Armor on his 50 Shield but will have four Armor on his 100 Health
Also this has nothing to do with the patch, that is just how the race works/has always worked.
I think it is fairly even if you take all of the above in account.
Because my Thread is aimed to discuss the change that 1.4.2 brings on the PTR I did not find it worthy to mention here.
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On October 27 2011 00:40 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 00:33 dignity wrote:
Thats not exactly accurate because protoss units to not take actual armor upgrades into account until they actually start taking non-shield damage. It would be a more accurate comparison to compare 2/2/2 protoss to a 2/2 bio + mech. Protoss armor upgrades are not fully effective like terran armor upgrades. I don't think getting a third forge is an option to get a +2+2+2/+3+3+3 Push since it would die to any sort of agression if you spend this amount of resources at once. Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 00:26 emythrel wrote:
It doesn't seem like a big deal, but numbers can be made to lie and you can use different numbers to make a different point.
If toss want to do a 2/2 timing with gateway and robo units it will cost them 500/500 to upgrade their entire army to 2/2.
If Terran want to do a 2/2 timing with MM+Tank it would cost 1050/1050 (without the armory) to upgrade their entire army.
When you look at it that way, it can be made to look like a much bigger deal. Upgrading the protoss ground army was already way cheaper than upgrading a Terran or Zerg ground army and quicker due to chronoboost. Personally I don't think the change will make too much difference, but its all about how you represent it. True, it seems like it is a lot less expensive to upgrade Protoss, but keep in mind that the Ground Armor only works on the "Health Hitpoints" while there is als "Shield Hitpoints" so the Ground Armour affects only 66% of a Zealot's HP and 50% of a Stalker's/sentry's HP Also this has nothing to do with the patch, that is just how the race works/has always worked. Because my Thread is aimed to discuss the change that 1.4.2 brings on the PTR I did find it worthy to mention here.
I was responding to emythrel above me. Your response to his post was pretty much a reiteration of my argument.
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The shield buff is the big thing here, I believe it will make the protoss army a bit more robust, which is obviously the intent. The reduced cost for the other upgrades is a nice bonus but that's about it.
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On October 26 2011 23:54 FeyFey wrote:
well it will allow timing pushes to be executed a few seconds earlier, with the same strength then before, or a few seconds later with a bit extra. But thats not the main point of the change, cost changes will always affect timings, saying something different is just ignoring some factors.
The real change is the shield upgrade, making it a viable upgrade if you use stargate units along with ground units.
And the other change is to encourage protoss players to get upgrades, since many don't get a forge unless they want canons and wonder why they lose with a 0/0 army (mostly like zerg some time ago).
And a +2 timing push doesn't have to start +3 asap, you can also commit the resources into more units to be more effective with your push and delay the +3 for some extra damage (which is not a bad thing to do)
As to the changes all i have to say. shield upgrade is evil now 150 and it will affect buildings, air units and ground units, I will skip +1 armor now in most of my builds :p. And the prism got even more imbalanced now with their shields..
Two parts:
1) timing pushes hit earlier. Read the OP before posting. At least the Intro...
2) You will get +1 Shield instead of +1 Armor.
This is a really tough one and depends 100% on your unit composition.
If you get a lot of ground forces +1 Armor still is way better since Zealots are affected at 66% of their health by +1 Armor, Stalkers and Sentries at 50% Health.
Also +1 Armor adds up to the existing Armor, with Guardian Shield this can be the difference between a Marine doing 3 or 2 damage per shot. Meaning that you take 1/3 of his DPS for 66% of a Zealot's health with less resources spent.
If you execute Stargate+Warpgate attacks it might actually be better. Though I really doubt it is.
On October 27 2011 00:52 K_Dilkington wrote:
The shield buff is the big thing here, I believe it will make the protoss army a bit more robust, which is obviously the intent. The reduced cost for the other upgrades is a nice bonus but that's about it.
That is exactly what this Thread is about.
But about 60 Sites of Posts instantly sprung up that only were filled with people flaming each other over the Imbalance of the new Weapon+Armor upgrades.
This is why I mades this thread in order to provide exact numbers so people know what they talk about.
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in terms of actual effects, its not impactful at all. The problem is definitely the philosphy that because toss upgrades are already far more efficient, they really don't need to be any cheaper too. Or at least, the attack upgrade should not be. With armor only applying to half the health of a unit, its debatable whether or not it should be the same as the other races. I'd say that the armor/ shield tradeoff is comparable to the bio/ mech armor trade that terran needs to do, and it being balanced with zerg from shield upgrades impacting all protoss units, not just ground/ air. Weapon upgrades however, should remain as more expensive, due to them effecting all gateway units, and all robo units.
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I disagree with the +2/+2 analysis. I think it lets the toss get 1 probe & replace a zealot with a stalker (if probe mines 25 minerals by the time the push comes the options aren't mutually exclusive).
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Very nice post, now let's just wish that everyone here would check this thread before making another one of those "Protoss are now OP" posts.
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You underline far too much in your OP, gives me a headache when reading... doesn't give you any more emphasis on points when every other thing is underlined/italicized or whatnot...
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Snipe a stalker. Balance out the upgrade "buff" ... lol
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When analyzing these upgrades, people seem to disregard how these upgrades are actually used.
These are, in my eyes, the common upgrades in each composition and they seem pretty balanced to me:
Protoss: (Most comps)Ground Attack, Ground armor (but it only affects ~2/3 of your total health OR you can buy a 3rd more expensive upgrade
Terran: (Bio +viking) Bio Attack, Bio armor, Air attack
(marine+tank) Bio attack, Bio Armor, Mech attack
They might get air armor in TvT, but that's a mirror.
Zerg: (Roach/Hydra/ Corruptor) Ranged Attack, Carapace, Possibly air attack
(Ling/bling/muta): Melee attack, carapace, air attack
Saying 'ground attack/armor covers more so it should cost more' is nice, but in the early game, when these things matter, Protoss has to get to a tech pretty darn quick and Terran doesn't. Protoss already has the burden of having to build tech and more expensive units.
EDIT: Well some people have already summarized what I've said in so many words, but I'll just reiterate that it's not worthwhile to just go 'but this upgrade + this upgrade costs this much!'.
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How are people overreacting tot his? You save under 25 minerals and 25 gas on level 2 and 50 minerals and 50 gas on level 3. That is huge? It literally makes no difference and the OP's numbers whether correct or not, show that very clearly. I hope you people realize Blizzard only added these changes as a 'why not' and as a way of satisfying protoss users who are considering switching races because of 1/1/1/ or whatever else protoss whine about these days. Anyone who actually understands the game realizes these upgrades will almost never make a difference in 99.9% of games. The only changes worth noting are EMP radius and shield change.
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The weapons/armor upgrades baffle me - but the shields make sense. I'm not sure why blizzard wanted to change the weapons/armor upgrade costs in the first place. In reality, I believe it'll only have a minor impact.
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On October 27 2011 01:54 Azzur wrote:
The weapons/armor upgrades baffle me - but the shields make sense. I'm not sure why blizzard wanted to change the weapons/armor upgrade costs in the first place. In reality, I believe it'll only have a minor impact.
I think most people are just mad about the philosophy behind the change more than the changes themselves.
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You get the upgrades faster than you previously would...that's what the huge deal is.
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On October 27 2011 00:15 dignity wrote:
People need to realize this is reducing the cost of an UPGRADE, which is a one time deal. You spend the resource to upgrade it once, unless for some reason your forge gets killed midway through it, but then you get the majority of the resources back anyways. The amount of money saved is exactly how much they reduced it by, which is more or less one stalker and one sentry worth of resources.
Its not like they are reducing zealot costs by 10 or something. At worst this change shaves off a few seconds off of timing attacks.
You get ALL of the resources back. You don't have to cancel the upgrade either.
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On October 27 2011 02:06 avilo wrote:
You get the upgrades faster than you previously would...that's what the huge deal is.
It's as if some omniscient entity foretold this.
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On October 27 2011 02:14 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 02:06 avilo wrote:
You get the upgrades faster than you previously would...that's what the huge deal is. It's as if some omniscient entity foretold this.
Ok sure, it is a little cheaper so you can start the upgrades maybe like... 3 seconds earlier.
-_-
Oh wait you stopped your army to kill off that scouting worker on your way over? 3 seconds gone!
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EPT
