EPTI guess all we can do is wait to see how HotS goes, and I am super excited for that!!!
[D]Are mutalisks overpowered in WOL?? - Page 38
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Imalengrat
Australia365 Posts
I guess all we can do is wait to see how HotS goes, and I am super excited for that!!! | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
The cost of armory, factories, tech labs and thors combined with the relatively long build times involved with those, early-ish mass magic box muta's were really unforgiving given the investments made. Thors were also still too big and clunky to really be a good defensive unit whilst being borderline OP in maxed out max up autorepair armies. Bottom-line is that Blizzard wanted to fill that anti-light air mech role with a more reactive unit that doesn't scale so weirdly. That means initial muta harass will probably be easier dealt with for a mecchan (maybe even without turrets?), but not a unit that can be massed or be expected to do well vs most other Zerg units at all. Obviously you understand why it benefits the game for Terran to have more than 1 option to counter mutalisks, otherwise all Terrans would just spam OP marines ... riiiite? So yeah, I don't see how the Warhound implies Mutalisks are OP at all, it just improves on a flawed design. Same goes for the Tempest really, it's only there to give Protoss a capital ship with purpose, filling in a gap when mutalisk (and masses of them) make a resurgence in ZvP. | ||
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TazTheTerrible
Belgium9 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 02 2011 00:00 Saechiis wrote: Blizzard made it very clear that the Thor wasn't filling it's anti-mutalisk role in the sense that they only really counter mutalisks once they hit like 5+ in number (probably since magic box wasn't part of the balance design and buffing thor splash would make them too strong vs muta in lower leagues). The cost of armory, factories, tech labs and thors combined with the relatively long build times involved with those, early-ish mass magic box muta's were really unforgiving given the investments made. Thors were also still too big and clunky to really be a good defensive unit whilst being borderline OP in maxed out max up autorepair armies. Bottom-line is that Blizzard wanted to fill that anti-light air mech role with a more reactive unit that doesn't scale so weirdly. That means initial muta harass will probably be easier dealt with for a mecchan (maybe even without turrets?), but not a unit that can be massed or be expected to do well vs most other Zerg units at all. Obviously you understand why it benefits the game for Terran to have more than 1 option to counter mutalisks, otherwise all Terrans would just spam OP marines ... riiiite? So yeah, I don't see how the Warhound implies Mutalisks are OP at all, it just improves on a flawed design. Same goes for the Tempest really, it's only there to give Protoss a capital ship with purpose, filling in a gap when mutalisk (and masses of them) make a resurgence in ZvP. yup, also they adress some other problems by warhound>thor and tempest>carrier. F.E mass Thor/tank would always kill a zerg, that didn't rush hive tech. Strike canons proofed too good vs Protoss robotech, so they where nerfed into oblivion, which again took away a big part from the thors initial design idea (back in the beta, thors started with strike canons!). On the other side, if Terran missed the mutatiming by only a bit, the initial 2thors would spawn after mutas did big damage. (those 2thors+turrets are enough to fend initial mutaharass off, but the timing is just very tricky and very reliant on zerg really going mutas) Dito with the tempest. I don't think it is specifically designed to counter mutalisks. It is rather so, that Protoss air to air is really bad in general, because phoenix are exclusively good vs light units, void rays not costefficient in air to air fights, when they are facing any unit that is designed to be an exclusive AtA-Unit. With the Tempests great vs air, not so great vs ground design, it could lead to interesting scenarios, in which Protoss goes mostly Air in the lategame (especially thinking about PvZ and PvP), because they might become the strongest AtA race (better than mass corruptor, if the tempest/void ray beats corruptors costefficient in higher numbers). The only way to beat this airfleet would be to go mass hydras or stalkers then, which would not only be an interesting scenario (air player vs ground player), but would also make the hydralisk a valuable unit in the zerg arsenal, and would explain the hydra T3 speed upgrade in HotS even more. (but I guess the developers/testers have more insight in this) | ||
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archangel967
Canada111 Posts
On October 25 2011 18:31 GhostFall wrote: I guess the real point of this thread is to address that fact that this expansion doesn't seem to be introducing units to fix problems like Starcraft Brood War did for Starcraft, but instead are introducing units because they are "cool". Which I guess is fine for a middle expansion, but this design philosophy will come under heavy fire during LOTV. lolwut? Dustin Browder explicitly prefixed each race discussion by saying "this is what this race is lacking". Just because he said the unit is cool later doesn't mean that they are just putting them in because they are cool... | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 02 2011 01:44 Big J wrote: yup, also they adress some other problems by warhound>thor and tempest>carrier. F.E mass Thor/tank would always kill a zerg, that didn't rush hive tech. Strike canons proofed too good vs Protoss robotech, so they where nerfed into oblivion, which again took away a big part from the thors initial design idea (back in the beta, thors started with strike canons!). On the other side, if Terran missed the mutatiming by only a bit, the initial 2thors would spawn after mutas did big damage. (those 2thors+turrets are enough to fend initial mutaharass off, but the timing is just very tricky and very reliant on zerg really going mutas) Dito with the tempest. I don't think it is specifically designed to counter mutalisks. It is rather so, that Protoss air to air is really bad in general, because phoenix are exclusively good vs light units, void rays not costefficient in air to air fights, when they are facing any unit that is designed to be an exclusive AtA-Unit. With the Tempests great vs air, not so great vs ground design, it could lead to interesting scenarios, in which Protoss goes mostly Air in the lategame (especially thinking about PvZ and PvP), because they might become the strongest AtA race (better than mass corruptor, if the tempest/void ray beats corruptors costefficient in higher numbers). The only way to beat this airfleet would be to go mass hydras or stalkers then, which would not only be an interesting scenario (air player vs ground player), but would also make the hydralisk a valuable unit in the zerg arsenal, and would explain the hydra T3 speed upgrade in HotS even more. (but I guess the developers/testers have more insight in this) I agree with the comments on protoss and their issues with anti-air. The phoenix has a roll, but its build and limited roll dealing with ground armies mades it a poor counter to deal with mutas. It is rare that a protoss can amass sufficent numbers of phoenix to deal with a muta a ever increasing ball of mutas. Also, they cost more than than the mutas and have a more limited roll. Storm and archons fair well against mutas in a straight up fight, but that is like saying immortals fair well against unsupported seige tanks. A solid muta player will never willing engage the protoss and will avoid the slow these slow moving units, such as HTs, which move at the speed of a thor. But this problem isn't limited to mutas. If you have ever seen protoss attempt to take on a sky-terran, they have similar issues. There is a solid tipping point where the protoss's ability to deal damage is outrun by their opponents over all DPS. This is specificly true for light units, like the banshee. Stalker do 10 damage to banshees, which is enough for one or 2, but if the terran is able to get up 4, 8 or 12 of these things it snowball's quickly. Plus air units can overlap eachother, which allows them to occupy less space, allowing for a more focused death ball. A lot of players will say "don't let the terran/zerg" get to that point. Although valid, I only agree with that to a point. There is a difference between letting a zerg get up to 85 drones on 4 bases with no units is different than your oppenent got 15-20 of X unit, so now your in real trouble. So, yeah.... in short, anti air AOEs are a good thing. Everyone should have at least one. | ||
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r_con
United States824 Posts
In TvZ warhound is gonna act like a corsair. Tempest is gonna act like a thor it seems | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On November 01 2011 23:11 ProxyKnoxy wrote: What are you talking about Toss has no build that leads into a macro game? 6-7 gate timing attacks lead into a macro game, as do many timing pushes after FFE. Have you even watched any pro games where the zerg goes mutas? Mutas do a lot of indirect damage as well... toss has to almost fully commit to dealing with mutas and in the case of cannons, rather inefficiently. Why are you acting as though mutas are easily counterable and useless when they are clearly not? You're talking of perfect scenarios for the toss (where they have complete knowledge of mutas incoming) when it generally isn't the case. When unprepared for, mutas do so much damage, and they can almost ignore a group of stalkers due to how much more mobile they are and the very weak dps they have. A mineral line can be gone very quickly and it forces toss to either play catch up or go for an all in.... Please play toss against mutas and see how hard they are to deal with Timing attacks rarely lead into macro games; some may, but 6-7 gate on two base are NOT one of them. You fail to take out your opponent's third and you'll most likely lose. | ||
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sandyph
Indonesia1640 Posts
On November 01 2011 23:36 Cain0 wrote: As a zerg player, I feel that 30+ mutas are very difficult to deal with for a protoss player. Terrans have lots of powerful AA that can repel them and then timing attack and crush me. as a Random player, I wont let a Zerg ever have 3000 minerals 3000 gas on PvZ | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On November 04 2011 02:06 hzflank wrote: There was an interesting game today on the GSL AOL. MC vs Line on crossfire, Line goes mass muta. MC goes 1 stargate phoenix + zealot/archon. The mutas win convincingly. Towards the end of the game there are 42 mutalisks. Line spends over 4k gas on his army. MC spends nowhere near that amount on his own. Mutas are imba. | ||
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Mantraz
Norway119 Posts
On October 25 2011 18:23 firehand101 wrote: totally agree with you. I couldnt believe blizz were making these changes to counter the mutalisk, terran in particular were not having any muta trouble at all with the thor. We will have to wait and see what happens with the next game, but all of these nerfs towards the muta makes me worry that it wont be an effective harass anymore, which makes me sad  the main issue with thors and mutas is the fact that the window where terran gets their first thor when meching can be very awkward to many non-top master/gm players to master (no pun intended) and that a slight misstep here is very unforgiving. Not my opinion, but i believe this is a lot of the reasoning behind this. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On November 04 2011 02:17 Jermstuddog wrote: Line spends over 4k gas on his army. MC spends nowhere near that amount on his own. Mutas are imba. Irrefutable logic. Personally, I thought that MC should have won that game, but it wasn't a big deal and the situation was quite wacky and MC did make a few mistakes, so I'm not really bothered. That kind of thing will come up so rarely in the highest level of play (GSL) that it isn't worth worrying about, especially considering it most likely won't be viable when we reach HotS. | ||
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AxUU
Finland162 Posts
They are all like "ehe We're gonna kill some of your probes, you must build 9875768975698756987 cannons to prevent us from flyin' around in your base, irritating the crap out of you." Yeah, so, They aren't OP, not in any way imo. But, I always feel like f10+n when I see mutas coming to my base, just to save my keyboard. | ||
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VPVash
United States139 Posts
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taintmachine
United States431 Posts
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On November 01 2011 21:58 Big J wrote: That's just bullshit. If Zerg goes 2base mutas, 2base phoenix RAPE them. If Zerg goes 3base mutas, 1gate attack RAPES him. If Zerg goes 3base roach/ling into mutas, Protoss has plenty of time to get up a 3rd base himself, chronoboost out more than 5phoenix per minute out of 2stargates and 5stalkers per minuta and rape the 7,5mutas a zerg can produce of 3base per minute. I don't get why Protoss blame losing games on mutalisks/infestors/broodlords whatever, when their macrogame sucks. The problem isn't that Mutas beat Protoss, the problem is that Protoss have no build that leads into a reasonable macro game. none of what u said is true. the only way phoenix will get the edge over mutas is if the toss blindly opens 2-3 stargate and blindly counters mutas by making pure phoenixes........ anything other then a stargate opening from toss will be weak to mutas. the only thing u have to worry about is 6 gates or some other gateway pressure build. if toss does not open stargate then he will NEVER have enought nixes to deal with the muta count. this is because of how the zerg macro machanic works. all of this coming from a zerg player btw. mutas in ZvP is insanely strong. the only way to counter it effectivly is if ur going a heavy archon build for the archon toilet or if u open stargates. opening DTs is also good since u will have them for archon morphing later. storm is also needed. so it can be countered, but doesnt change the fact that muta builds are very good in ZvP. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
Being a Zerg player doesn't make you more authoritative on Protoss counters to Muta play unfortunately, so don't try to justify your POV with such irrelevent details. Anyway, Phoenixs hard counter mutalisks, no question about it. If the numbers are anywhere near close, phoenix always come out on top. That is called a counter. It works fine. Stalkers generally win vs Mutas in relatively equal numbers as well, considering they cost 1/2 the gas, come at a lower tier and are all-around more versatile units, that sounds good too. Archons, if given the opportunity to attack more than once, are always cost-effective. Add to that, Archons always kill mutas in 3-4 hits with a large splash depending on upgrades. No problem there. 2 storms can kill a theoretically infinite number of mutas. In particular, when teamed up with any combination of the previously mentioned units, it makes base defense a non-issue. Cannons cost 0 gas and do better than stalkers in comparison. 1 probe can build infinity of them in rapid succession. Protoss has no issues with mass mutas other than the fact that 99% of Protoss players have no clue how to respond. | ||
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mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
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