On November 01 2011 18:15 Thezzy wrote: The main issue with Mutalisks (if there truly is one, I play Terran and I'm mixed about this) is that with solid micro, Mutalisks rarely die, and either force Terran back to the base for damage control or force a base trade / all-in. Once the Muta flock reaches about 16+, Turrets, even with +2 armor and +1 range become null and void, giving you only a few seconds of time.
For Protoss, the direct counter is the Phoenix and although you can't mass them as much as Mutalisks, you generally won't need to unless Zerg is going purely for mass muta. In the case of mass mass muta, all you need to do is mass phoenixes and other AA since there won't be a lot of ground forces. If Protoss manages to get rid of the mutas with the Phoenixes, they can still contribute heavily to the ground war, lifting up power units or doing harassment themselves.
For Terran, there is generally no air to air means to deal with a Muta ball. Vikings, although somewhat massable via Reactors, lose badly to Mutalisks and have a bad tendency to all shoot the same Mutalisk. Furthermore, mass Viking is horrible against Zerg unless you manage to snipe every single Overlord on the map with them. Vikings also cannot chase down Mutalisks.
The best way I've found to deal with Mutas is to just not let it get that far and force them back for defense. I aim to be shelling Zerg's third or natural before that 20 muta ball is up and running, forcing Zerg to deal with my marine/tank army instead. If he then chooses to harass me with Mutas, I move the marine/tank army up faster.
At the same time, if Zerg does manage to get that 20 muta ball up (especially on maps like Metalopolis) whilst having decent ground forces / macro (or having defend my push), I feel completely lost as how to kill it off.
You try going mass phoenix to counter mass muta and let me know how it goes when you've got 15 of them and he's got 50 mutas one shotting buildings, and has a few corrupters mixxed in. Oh, and if you try to leave your base with them, and he made ONE infestor, you instantly lose the game, and he's got the entire map because you're turtling trying to make mass phoenix.
On November 01 2011 18:15 Thezzy wrote: The main issue with Mutalisks (if there truly is one, I play Terran and I'm mixed about this) is that with solid micro, Mutalisks rarely die, and either force Terran back to the base for damage control or force a base trade / all-in. Once the Muta flock reaches about 16+, Turrets, even with +2 armor and +1 range become null and void, giving you only a few seconds of time.
For Protoss, the direct counter is the Phoenix and although you can't mass them as much as Mutalisks, you generally won't need to unless Zerg is going purely for mass muta. In the case of mass mass muta, all you need to do is mass phoenixes and other AA since there won't be a lot of ground forces. If Protoss manages to get rid of the mutas with the Phoenixes, they can still contribute heavily to the ground war, lifting up power units or doing harassment themselves.
For Terran, there is generally no air to air means to deal with a Muta ball. Vikings, although somewhat massable via Reactors, lose badly to Mutalisks and have a bad tendency to all shoot the same Mutalisk. Furthermore, mass Viking is horrible against Zerg unless you manage to snipe every single Overlord on the map with them. Vikings also cannot chase down Mutalisks.
The best way I've found to deal with Mutas is to just not let it get that far and force them back for defense. I aim to be shelling Zerg's third or natural before that 20 muta ball is up and running, forcing Zerg to deal with my marine/tank army instead. If he then chooses to harass me with Mutas, I move the marine/tank army up faster.
At the same time, if Zerg does manage to get that 20 muta ball up (especially on maps like Metalopolis) whilst having decent ground forces / macro (or having defend my push), I feel completely lost as how to kill it off.
You try going mass phoenix to counter mass muta and let me know how it goes when you've got 15 of them and he's got 50 mutas one shotting buildings, and has a few corrupters mixxed in.
if a zerg have 50 mutas, thats 5000/5000 and 100 supply with 60 drone on 3 base and 3 queen that makes it 166 supply, 34 left for a ground army
if he also have a couple of corruptor, then probably he only have 3-5 roaches total, should be easy to kill him
or a better idea, dont let him reach 50 mutas in the first place
I feel like coming back to what I said earlier. Blizzard's answer to problems in the game is to make a unit that just shits on the unit to the point where you don't want to make them.
Terrans were getting killed by ling backstabs: Enter Shredder which completely blocks off a counterattack path so backstabs CAN"T happen Mass mutas are really good versus protoss: Enter Tempest which destroy mutas so quickly that investing into mutas is sure to lose you the game Ultras are good in brood war and need to be kept in check: Immortals and Maruaders added which destroy ultras Colossus are really good versus Zerg: Enter Viper which pulls colossus out of the army and kills it so quickly that they're wasted resources Turtle Terran versus zerg is really hard for zerg to beat: Enter Viper so none of the fucking tanks can shoot.
Really, some of these things need to be looked at. I don't think anyone who's seen Ghostmech versus zerg is like "yeah, that's totally fine". Sure, it might be a little too good, but you don't need to create a unit that completly shits on this strategy; that takes out the fun. The same goes for mass muta. Yeah, it's really hard to stop mass mutas (as protoss) in the late game, but possible. You ahve to play well to beat this strategy. Does that mean that it's completly overpowered? No. Yes, make a small change, but making this massive change that basically makes it impossible to go muta is so fucking retarted. Why? Why is this here. Give the archon a little bit extra splash and boom, archons are really good versus mutas. Do you guys remember PvZ in BW? Archons were fantastic versus mutas, but if you micro'd like a god, you could snipe archons without taking damage. That was SUCH a cool thing. We can't do that now, though, because of what several people stated in this thread...
How are "X UNIT" not overpowered at low levels? Yeah, pros can deal with them, but what am I supposed to do?"
Well, that's what blizzard hears because theres SO many more of those voices out there than pro voices or people who are willing to let the game be hard. Look, the reason starcraft was such a good game is it was HARD. You could play for a year and be D+ and feel so fucking proud of yourself, because you worked real fucking hard to learn how to do something. I hate that everyone wants stuff handed to them because it's hard. How is making it easy to kill mutas for low levels good for the game? On the pro side, now protoss just shit on zergs who try ot go muta because it's so easy to kill them.
So, as an appeal to our community, please consider this. Yes, some things are hard to deal with. They're really fucking hard to deal with. But just because they're hard, doesn't mean that Blizzard needs to step in and make a drastic change. I play zerg and one thing that's infuriating is if a Terran gets like 8-10 ghosts up with some number of tanks, you're just dead. Noone has found a really good way to deal with this strategy yet. Blizzard is thinking of adding the viper in which will shit all over this strategy and I think that's horrible. The terran should be rewarded for getting into this good scenario. Should there be little tweaks to make it slightly easier to deal with? In my oppinion yes, but only because even zergs on the pro level can't beat this strategy. Please just consider that even though you're struggling, that's not a bad thing. Take the opportunity to LEARN and work on beating this strategy, don't just expect blizzard to hand you the solution, becuase that solution makes the game so much less interesting.
On October 25 2011 18:24 TFOG wrote: 3/3 Marines are pretty good and storms are actually quite effective with blink stalkers - 1:20
I'm not sure what blizzard is thinking, but hopefully they change their unit design goals.
What they're thinking is "we don't want tank/marine to be the only viable midgame comp". Storm is the last upgrade of the templar tech tree, a Tier 3 unit. By saying storm is necessary to deal with mutas, means you are forcing the Protoss down a specific tech path when they should be able to emphasize robo tech instead.
In my opinion mutas scale too well, due to their attack being a "cleave". Static defenses are single target and thus cannot deal with mass muta effectively, therefore more anti-air is needed in the mid-to-late game. Other air harass units either don't scale very well (phoenix) or are not fast enough to be effective raiders (void ray/banshee). The solution to mid-to-late game muta play should be upgraded marines (when playing bio) or thors (when playing mech). Magic boxing nullifies Thors as base defense for a meching player. Mass muta in the late game is basically a pack of flying hellions.
Terrans were getting killed by ling backstabs: Enter Shredder which completely blocks off a counterattack path so backstabs CAN"T happen
Yes they can, you just need to kill the Shredders with something else. Roaches should work, as should a few baneling detonations. This will either free an attack path immediately or at the very least force Terran to rebuild the Shredders and keep more of his food in base defense.
You could also use micro tricks, using your new death grip to pull a Terran unit into Shredder range, and then running lings over them. I don't really understand why they shouldn't be making ling counters require actual micro instead of simply attack moving a control group via the minimap.
On November 01 2011 18:15 Thezzy wrote: The main issue with Mutalisks (if there truly is one, I play Terran and I'm mixed about this) is that with solid micro, Mutalisks rarely die, and either force Terran back to the base for damage control or force a base trade / all-in. Once the Muta flock reaches about 16+, Turrets, even with +2 armor and +1 range become null and void, giving you only a few seconds of time.
For Protoss, the direct counter is the Phoenix and although you can't mass them as much as Mutalisks, you generally won't need to unless Zerg is going purely for mass muta. In the case of mass mass muta, all you need to do is mass phoenixes and other AA since there won't be a lot of ground forces. If Protoss manages to get rid of the mutas with the Phoenixes, they can still contribute heavily to the ground war, lifting up power units or doing harassment themselves.
For Terran, there is generally no air to air means to deal with a Muta ball. Vikings, although somewhat massable via Reactors, lose badly to Mutalisks and have a bad tendency to all shoot the same Mutalisk. Furthermore, mass Viking is horrible against Zerg unless you manage to snipe every single Overlord on the map with them. Vikings also cannot chase down Mutalisks.
The best way I've found to deal with Mutas is to just not let it get that far and force them back for defense. I aim to be shelling Zerg's third or natural before that 20 muta ball is up and running, forcing Zerg to deal with my marine/tank army instead. If he then chooses to harass me with Mutas, I move the marine/tank army up faster.
At the same time, if Zerg does manage to get that 20 muta ball up (especially on maps like Metalopolis) whilst having decent ground forces / macro (or having defend my push), I feel completely lost as how to kill it off.
You try going mass phoenix to counter mass muta and let me know how it goes when you've got 15 of them and he's got 50 mutas one shotting buildings, and has a few corrupters mixxed in. Oh, and if you try to leave your base with them, and he made ONE infestor, you instantly lose the game, and he's got the entire map because you're turtling trying to make mass phoenix.
just do the math. In terms of ressources, do 15 phoenix equal 50 mutas?
On November 01 2011 18:15 Thezzy wrote: The main issue with Mutalisks (if there truly is one, I play Terran and I'm mixed about this) is that with solid micro, Mutalisks rarely die, and either force Terran back to the base for damage control or force a base trade / all-in. Once the Muta flock reaches about 16+, Turrets, even with +2 armor and +1 range become null and void, giving you only a few seconds of time.
For Protoss, the direct counter is the Phoenix and although you can't mass them as much as Mutalisks, you generally won't need to unless Zerg is going purely for mass muta. In the case of mass mass muta, all you need to do is mass phoenixes and other AA since there won't be a lot of ground forces. If Protoss manages to get rid of the mutas with the Phoenixes, they can still contribute heavily to the ground war, lifting up power units or doing harassment themselves.
For Terran, there is generally no air to air means to deal with a Muta ball. Vikings, although somewhat massable via Reactors, lose badly to Mutalisks and have a bad tendency to all shoot the same Mutalisk. Furthermore, mass Viking is horrible against Zerg unless you manage to snipe every single Overlord on the map with them. Vikings also cannot chase down Mutalisks.
The best way I've found to deal with Mutas is to just not let it get that far and force them back for defense. I aim to be shelling Zerg's third or natural before that 20 muta ball is up and running, forcing Zerg to deal with my marine/tank army instead. If he then chooses to harass me with Mutas, I move the marine/tank army up faster.
At the same time, if Zerg does manage to get that 20 muta ball up (especially on maps like Metalopolis) whilst having decent ground forces / macro (or having defend my push), I feel completely lost as how to kill it off.
You try going mass phoenix to counter mass muta and let me know how it goes when you've got 15 of them and he's got 50 mutas one shotting buildings, and has a few corrupters mixxed in. Oh, and if you try to leave your base with them, and he made ONE infestor, you instantly lose the game, and he's got the entire map because you're turtling trying to make mass phoenix.
just do the math. In terms of ressources, do 15 phoenix equal 50 mutas?
The larva mechanic and Zerg production in general makes any resource-based comparison of units rather pointless. Yes, mass muta is expensive, but getting to 50 mutas does not take any infrastructure investement, whereas going to 50 phoenix requires mass Stargates. Transitioning out of mass muta is rather trivial, compared to transitioning out of mass Stargate.
On November 01 2011 18:15 Thezzy wrote: The main issue with Mutalisks (if there truly is one, I play Terran and I'm mixed about this) is that with solid micro, Mutalisks rarely die, and either force Terran back to the base for damage control or force a base trade / all-in. Once the Muta flock reaches about 16+, Turrets, even with +2 armor and +1 range become null and void, giving you only a few seconds of time.
For Protoss, the direct counter is the Phoenix and although you can't mass them as much as Mutalisks, you generally won't need to unless Zerg is going purely for mass muta. In the case of mass mass muta, all you need to do is mass phoenixes and other AA since there won't be a lot of ground forces. If Protoss manages to get rid of the mutas with the Phoenixes, they can still contribute heavily to the ground war, lifting up power units or doing harassment themselves.
For Terran, there is generally no air to air means to deal with a Muta ball. Vikings, although somewhat massable via Reactors, lose badly to Mutalisks and have a bad tendency to all shoot the same Mutalisk. Furthermore, mass Viking is horrible against Zerg unless you manage to snipe every single Overlord on the map with them. Vikings also cannot chase down Mutalisks.
The best way I've found to deal with Mutas is to just not let it get that far and force them back for defense. I aim to be shelling Zerg's third or natural before that 20 muta ball is up and running, forcing Zerg to deal with my marine/tank army instead. If he then chooses to harass me with Mutas, I move the marine/tank army up faster.
At the same time, if Zerg does manage to get that 20 muta ball up (especially on maps like Metalopolis) whilst having decent ground forces / macro (or having defend my push), I feel completely lost as how to kill it off.
You try going mass phoenix to counter mass muta and let me know how it goes when you've got 15 of them and he's got 50 mutas one shotting buildings, and has a few corrupters mixxed in. Oh, and if you try to leave your base with them, and he made ONE infestor, you instantly lose the game, and he's got the entire map because you're turtling trying to make mass phoenix.
just do the math. In terms of ressources, do 15 phoenix equal 50 mutas?
Exactly what Yeint said above me, resource cost is irrelevant, zerg has a far superior economy, and because of the way larva works, can build mutas at a MUCH faster rate, whereas as protoss you'd need to be able to pump pheonix out of 4 stargates to keep up. While you're pinned on 2-3 bases, zerg is taking the entire map and then throwing wave after wave of roaches and lings at you while the mutas continue to harass and task your multitasking. Then once he's got the entire map, he could just throw them away.
The only reasonable counter protoss has to mass mutas is storm, and that's only usable defensively because of how slow the High Templar are.
Phoenix are great in small numbers vs. small numbers, they're amazing in that scenario. Once the enemy gets out of the small numbers (more than 10), phoenix become useless and you need to find a better answer.
And again, if zerg makes one infestor and you leave your base with your phoenix, you might very likely lose all your phoenix (and the game if you've invested in phoenix).
The best part is that if you somehow manage to get enough phoenix out and kill off the mass muta, he's taken the entire map already and laughs as he remaxes on lings, ultras or roaches, and all you've got is a bunch of phoenix.
Terrans were getting killed by ling backstabs: Enter Shredder which completely blocks off a counterattack path so backstabs CAN"T happen
Yes they can, you just need to kill the Shredders with something else. Roaches should work, as should a few baneling detonations. This will either free an attack path immediately or at the very least force Terran to rebuild the Shredders and keep more of his food in base defense.
You could also use micro tricks, using your new death grip to pull a Terran unit into Shredder range, and then running lings over them. I don't really understand why they shouldn't be making ling counters require actual micro instead of simply attack moving a control group via the minimap.
Because that's not a backstab; that's an attack. A backstab is a small window of opportunity you gain when the terran moves out unwisely so you can do some damage and make them pull back. They're taking away any risks from moving out at unwise times. Yeah, if you have an army that is able to take out a shredder, you can poke his base, but by that time he's back in position and just fine. All the numbers are subject to change, but in the current form, shredders outrange roaches and shit on them pretty hard. Making ling attacks impossible without a unit that is slow to build and costs 150 gas (subject to change, ofc) is stupid. It's that same design process. Make thing that's strong totally impossible. Ling backstabs are a huge part of ZvT; by discuraging that they're essentailly discurraging people from playing zerg like zerg. It's actually SO hard to backstab that you might as well just build up a big force and attack, because now you can't abuse your speed because low level players are losing to this thing, and it takes too much effort to block.
You cant just do resource equating in this case. The issues is that the toss ground army is useless vs muta until blink which is in a different tech tree from phoenix. Also lings are really good at forcing a mid game by which point toss has to have spent a huge amount of gas just to scout/be safe. In addition to this, zerg always have the option of a superior gas economy as well as a temporary drone advantage once their second base kicks in (which the muta timing takes advantage of). Basically what zerg are doing her is what noob toss have been doing for ages. In almost any mid game engagement toss has had to spend more for less, its just how the race works and it frustrates them. In this case zerg are over producing a niche unit (which they can do instantly due to early zergling/spine dominance and racial features like inject) and then complaining about it.
The simple fact of the matter is that you cant go phoenix as a reaction to muta as you will get crushed in the numbers game and blink stalkers are only okay vs muta balls (you are still contained and are never in huge risk because they lack splash and overkill). Basically what toss needs (which is all I can really comment on) is a way to respond once mutas are scouted that makes toss safe. After all, isnt the point of RTS play to scout and respond, not to pray for a build order victory?
Terrans were getting killed by ling backstabs: Enter Shredder which completely blocks off a counterattack path so backstabs CAN"T happen
Yes they can, you just need to kill the Shredders with something else. Roaches should work, as should a few baneling detonations. This will either free an attack path immediately or at the very least force Terran to rebuild the Shredders and keep more of his food in base defense.
You could also use micro tricks, using your new death grip to pull a Terran unit into Shredder range, and then running lings over them. I don't really understand why they shouldn't be making ling counters require actual micro instead of simply attack moving a control group via the minimap.
Because that's not a backstab; that's an attack. A backstab is a small window of opportunity you gain when the terran moves out unwisely so you can do some damage and make them pull back. They're taking away any risks from moving out at unwise times. Yeah, if you have an army that is able to take out a shredder, you can poke his base, but by that time he's back in position and just fine. All the numbers are subject to change, but in the current form, shredders outrange roaches and shit on them pretty hard. Making ling attacks impossible without a unit that is slow to build and costs 150 gas (subject to change, ofc) is stupid. It's that same design process. Make thing that's strong totally impossible. Ling backstabs are a huge part of ZvT; by discuraging that they're essentailly discurraging people from playing zerg like zerg. It's actually SO hard to backstab that you might as well just build up a big force and attack, because now you can't abuse your speed because low level players are losing to this thing, and it takes too much effort to block.
T.T
"If you have an army that is able to take out a shredder"
Please. Shredders are good against anything they can kill in one or two pulses, they're not indestructible or cloaked. A handful of roaches should kill one or two shredders with ease, or else you could just detonate a few banelings on them.
The only thing they appear to prevent really well is a-move ling counters, something that right now requires simcity with tanks behind it. Simcity is not practical at every mining base.
Shredders are basically a low-APM counter to a low-APM attack.
Terrans were getting killed by ling backstabs: Enter Shredder which completely blocks off a counterattack path so backstabs CAN"T happen
Yes they can, you just need to kill the Shredders with something else. Roaches should work, as should a few baneling detonations. This will either free an attack path immediately or at the very least force Terran to rebuild the Shredders and keep more of his food in base defense.
You could also use micro tricks, using your new death grip to pull a Terran unit into Shredder range, and then running lings over them. I don't really understand why they shouldn't be making ling counters require actual micro instead of simply attack moving a control group via the minimap.
Because that's not a backstab; that's an attack. A backstab is a small window of opportunity you gain when the terran moves out unwisely so you can do some damage and make them pull back. They're taking away any risks from moving out at unwise times. Yeah, if you have an army that is able to take out a shredder, you can poke his base, but by that time he's back in position and just fine. All the numbers are subject to change, but in the current form, shredders outrange roaches and shit on them pretty hard. Making ling attacks impossible without a unit that is slow to build and costs 150 gas (subject to change, ofc) is stupid. It's that same design process. Make thing that's strong totally impossible. Ling backstabs are a huge part of ZvT; by discuraging that they're essentailly discurraging people from playing zerg like zerg. It's actually SO hard to backstab that you might as well just build up a big force and attack, because now you can't abuse your speed because low level players are losing to this thing, and it takes too much effort to block.
T.T
"If you have an army that is able to take out a shredder"
Please. Shredders are good against anything they can kill in one or two pulses, they're not indestructible or cloaked. A handful of roaches should kill one or two shredders with ease, or else you could just detonate a few banelings on them.
The only thing they appear to prevent really well is a-move ling counters, something that right now requires simcity with tanks behind it. Simcity is not practical at every mining base.
Shredders are basically a low-APM counter to a low-APM attack.
Players like you are why this game is going to end up terrible. Look, Ling counters are not timing attacks. You're not planning on doing it and setting up a lot of shit to make it possible; its an attack of opportunity to punish a terran or protoss or zerg from moving out when he shouldn't because he doesn't have defenses. Counterattacks like this are essential to zerg play. You can't just make a huge ass army and attack as zerg because your units are worse, and the trade off is that they're fast so that you CAN counterattack. Watch any broodwar ZvT of decent length. I can garuntee the zerg is counterattacking almost all the time, he's not fighting head on. There is a problem with a unit that is designed specificially to make this impossible without a substantial army.
Also, you call backstab's an amove army...what the fuck is the zerg supposed to do, dance his zerglings into your base? I'm sorry, but backstabs don't require "simcity and tanks" to stop, that's retarded. Yeah, if you're willing to throw away 60 zerglings on a counter, you need a decent force to kill it, but the attack you're doing is going to kill the zerg. Backstabs are not a problem; they're just a part of the game. Like I said, this is the way blizzard balances. You're a low level player who gets killed by lings running into your base becuase you're not positioning correctly or leaving any defenses so you complain and blizzard makes it not possible unless you invest a ton of resources/time into it, which defeats the purpose. The game is starting to slowly gravitate into "make a shit ton of units and throw them at your opponent, hope you win". That's terrible and players need to recognize that's what's happening and nip it in the bud.
On November 01 2011 18:57 Velocirapture wrote: Basically what toss needs (which is all I can really comment on) is a way to respond once mutas are scouted that makes toss safe.
not a few months ago, Idra was qq-ing about there are no way for Zerg to safely scout a protoss base, this is when all Zerg do a hydra-roach-corrupter against Toss and keep losing games
and then Zerg figures out that if you let Protoss max out on 3 bases then there's no way to beat them, couple with the infestor changes making Zerg start to go infestor-ling harass based play against Protoss
then P qq and blizzard nefr the infestor, but the main point stands. Zerg should not let Protoss sit and max on 3 bases, thats why mutas making a resurgence
so I guess its time again for P to qq and hope that Blizz will also nerf mutas
After all, isnt the point of RTS play to scout and respond, not to pray for a build order victory?
again, just a few months ago, if a Zerg went pass 7 minutes without detection then he is dead because there's no way for Zerg to scout 1 base protoss and if the Protoss do a DT rush, its an easy build order win.
Then Zerg started to build evolution chamber early every game and suddenly they found out that they dont die to DT rush or voids rush that often.
I remember when the answer to voidray+colossus was " don't let the toss get it and you win" you had to sacrifice a lot of supply to keep the colossus / voidray count low ! I think it's the same answer to mass muta. Scout with the observer when the spire is coming and then crush it with a warp prism/ voidray / Blink stalker / Dt ! Or be aggressiv enough to prevent the zerg to make mutas.
On November 01 2011 18:15 Thezzy wrote: The main issue with Mutalisks (if there truly is one, I play Terran and I'm mixed about this) is that with solid micro, Mutalisks rarely die, and either force Terran back to the base for damage control or force a base trade / all-in. Once the Muta flock reaches about 16+, Turrets, even with +2 armor and +1 range become null and void, giving you only a few seconds of time.
For Protoss, the direct counter is the Phoenix and although you can't mass them as much as Mutalisks, you generally won't need to unless Zerg is going purely for mass muta. In the case of mass mass muta, all you need to do is mass phoenixes and other AA since there won't be a lot of ground forces. If Protoss manages to get rid of the mutas with the Phoenixes, they can still contribute heavily to the ground war, lifting up power units or doing harassment themselves.
For Terran, there is generally no air to air means to deal with a Muta ball. Vikings, although somewhat massable via Reactors, lose badly to Mutalisks and have a bad tendency to all shoot the same Mutalisk. Furthermore, mass Viking is horrible against Zerg unless you manage to snipe every single Overlord on the map with them. Vikings also cannot chase down Mutalisks.
The best way I've found to deal with Mutas is to just not let it get that far and force them back for defense. I aim to be shelling Zerg's third or natural before that 20 muta ball is up and running, forcing Zerg to deal with my marine/tank army instead. If he then chooses to harass me with Mutas, I move the marine/tank army up faster.
At the same time, if Zerg does manage to get that 20 muta ball up (especially on maps like Metalopolis) whilst having decent ground forces / macro (or having defend my push), I feel completely lost as how to kill it off.
You try going mass phoenix to counter mass muta and let me know how it goes when you've got 15 of them and he's got 50 mutas one shotting buildings, and has a few corrupters mixxed in. Oh, and if you try to leave your base with them, and he made ONE infestor, you instantly lose the game, and he's got the entire map because you're turtling trying to make mass phoenix.
just do the math. In terms of ressources, do 15 phoenix equal 50 mutas?
The larva mechanic and Zerg production in general makes any resource-based comparison of units rather pointless. Yes, mass muta is expensive, but getting to 50 mutas does not take any infrastructure investement, whereas going to 50 phoenix requires mass Stargates. Transitioning out of mass muta is rather trivial, compared to transitioning out of mass Stargate.
Sure Zerg and Protoss play different, but still, the ressource based comparison is viable. Maybe not 100% but in general. Imo toss should not defend mass muta with mass phoenix, BUT toss should not be able to defend mass mutas with a few phoenix either. Lets not theorycraft too much, but look at how this style is played on the ladder.
In 50% of all cases Toss goes FFE and has an economic advantage until both reach the 50 worker count and then the favor shifts towards the zerg. But this implements the zerg drones like a madman and is not pressured at all. Tbh he should be. The larva mechanic is a tricky one. If feeling safe, all zergs get greedy and build nothing but drones. they dont have to choose and balance their unique ressource (which the larva is). Toss can build units and workers at the same time and if 6 zealots decide to move out, zerg has to overreact with zerglings, which hurts his economy on the longterm, since less drone production at a certain point means, that he can`t play his build order like he wants to and his timings are off. He can put less drone into gas, which will delay all his tech/upgrades. He has to wait until more larva spawns.
Back to the actual army composition. While Zerg wants to put all his gas into mutas and the remaining minerals into zerglings, Protoss has to balance his army. If he decided to open with a double stargate, he can challenge the mutas at the start and deny their harassment for the pretty long time. At some point he has to stop making phoenix, but prepare for later stages in the game. How to counter mass mutas? How to counter mass lings? Archon, HT, Blink stalker, some sentrys and the already existing phoenix will do well against Muta/ling. I don`t say it is easy and it shouldn`t be, but if you manage to defend without getting cripled too much, the toss army reaches a strength where it just rolls over the zerg, no matter what. Both armies are limited by gas and as the zerg dumps his minerals into zerglings, the toss should dump his into cannons, to delay/nulify the baserace which many zergs try to do.
I believe the Tempest has another niche. Sure they are great against Muta, but remember Muta is mainly a mid game unit and the Tempest seems to be a Fleet beacon unit. I assume this is also to aid out against the corrupter+Mass Broodlord play that you often see in late PvZ. In current PvZ you can keep all the Stalkers using Fungal making the Broodlords near unstoppable with sufficient ling (or better roach) support. The tempest will make it alot more manageable for Protoss. Giving them more room to build a proper ball against the zerg infantry while the Tempest take out the clutched air units. I just fear they lack a proper ground aid. Vikings can help (a little) by dropping. Corrupters can morph in Broodlords and use it's spell. Phoenix can lift off units. I'm curious what blizzard decides to strengthen the ground forces once everything in air is taken care off.
Terrans were getting killed by ling backstabs: Enter Shredder which completely blocks off a counterattack path so backstabs CAN"T happen
Yes they can, you just need to kill the Shredders with something else. Roaches should work, as should a few baneling detonations. This will either free an attack path immediately or at the very least force Terran to rebuild the Shredders and keep more of his food in base defense.
You could also use micro tricks, using your new death grip to pull a Terran unit into Shredder range, and then running lings over them. I don't really understand why they shouldn't be making ling counters require actual micro instead of simply attack moving a control group via the minimap.
Because that's not a backstab; that's an attack. A backstab is a small window of opportunity you gain when the terran moves out unwisely so you can do some damage and make them pull back. They're taking away any risks from moving out at unwise times. Yeah, if you have an army that is able to take out a shredder, you can poke his base, but by that time he's back in position and just fine. All the numbers are subject to change, but in the current form, shredders outrange roaches and shit on them pretty hard. Making ling attacks impossible without a unit that is slow to build and costs 150 gas (subject to change, ofc) is stupid. It's that same design process. Make thing that's strong totally impossible. Ling backstabs are a huge part of ZvT; by discuraging that they're essentailly discurraging people from playing zerg like zerg. It's actually SO hard to backstab that you might as well just build up a big force and attack, because now you can't abuse your speed because low level players are losing to this thing, and it takes too much effort to block.
T.T
"If you have an army that is able to take out a shredder"
Please. Shredders are good against anything they can kill in one or two pulses, they're not indestructible or cloaked. A handful of roaches should kill one or two shredders with ease, or else you could just detonate a few banelings on them.
The only thing they appear to prevent really well is a-move ling counters, something that right now requires simcity with tanks behind it. Simcity is not practical at every mining base.
Shredders are basically a low-APM counter to a low-APM attack.
Players like you are why this game is going to end up terrible. Look, Ling counters are not timing attacks. You're not planning on doing it and setting up a lot of shit to make it possible; its an attack of opportunity to punish a terran or protoss or zerg from moving out when he shouldn't because he doesn't have defenses. Counterattacks like this are essential to zerg play. You can't just make a huge ass army and attack as zerg because your units are worse, and the trade off is that they're fast so that you CAN counterattack. Watch any broodwar ZvT of decent length. I can garuntee the zerg is counterattacking almost all the time, he's not fighting head on. There is a problem with a unit that is designed specificially to make this impossible without a substantial army.
Also, you call backstab's an amove army...what the fuck is the zerg supposed to do, dance his zerglings into your base? I'm sorry, but backstabs don't require "simcity and tanks" to stop, that's retarded. Yeah, if you're willing to throw away 60 zerglings on a counter, you need a decent force to kill it, but the attack you're doing is going to kill the zerg. Backstabs are not a problem; they're just a part of the game. Like I said, this is the way blizzard balances. You're a low level player who gets killed by lings running into your base becuase you're not positioning correctly or leaving any defenses so you complain and blizzard makes it not possible unless you invest a ton of resources/time into it, which defeats the purpose. The game is starting to slowly gravitate into "make a shit ton of units and throw them at your opponent, hope you win". That's terrible and players need to recognize that's what's happening and nip it in the bud.
Why not just get go around the shredder if it is that much trouble for your lings? All you need is an ventral sacs upgrade to start dropping them lings around and it even unlocks new possible attack routes for your ground units too (You know, I always wonder why overlords don't have special model when ultralisk gets into it like the medivacs have with thor... so weird). I am sure a decent zerg player like yourself is able to do this without any problem.
On November 01 2011 18:57 Velocirapture wrote: You cant just do resource equating in this case. The issues is that the toss ground army is useless vs muta until blink which is in a different tech tree from phoenix. Also lings are really good at forcing a mid game by which point toss has to have spent a huge amount of gas just to scout/be safe. In addition to this, zerg always have the option of a superior gas economy as well as a temporary drone advantage once their second base kicks in (which the muta timing takes advantage of). Basically what zerg are doing her is what noob toss have been doing for ages. In almost any mid game engagement toss has had to spend more for less, its just how the race works and it frustrates them. In this case zerg are over producing a niche unit (which they can do instantly due to early zergling/spine dominance and racial features like inject) and then complaining about it.
The simple fact of the matter is that you cant go phoenix as a reaction to muta as you will get crushed in the numbers game and blink stalkers are only okay vs muta balls (you are still contained and are never in huge risk because they lack splash and overkill). Basically what toss needs (which is all I can really comment on) is a way to respond once mutas are scouted that makes toss safe. After all, isnt the point of RTS play to scout and respond, not to pray for a build order victory?
You're completely wrong. Mutas are not a niche unit, they need to be useful even when scouted. Starcraft isn't about "I scouted your mutas, so I made my anti-muta and won!". That would be terrible for the game and would make Mutas a cheesy and horrible unit.
As it stands all 3 races have answers to Mutas, but Mutas will always be a problem regardless of what you do. That's the way it should be.
On November 01 2011 18:31 Arisen wrote: Terrans were getting killed by ling backstabs: Enter Shredder which completely blocks off a counterattack path so backstabs CAN"T happen Mass mutas are really good versus protoss: Enter Tempest which destroy mutas so quickly that investing into mutas is sure to lose you the game Ultras are good in brood war and need to be kept in check: Immortals and Maruaders added which destroy ultras Colossus are really good versus Zerg: Enter Viper which pulls colossus out of the army and kills it so quickly that they're wasted resources Turtle Terran versus zerg is really hard for zerg to beat: Enter Viper so none of the fucking tanks can shoot.
I agree with your message but I think you worry too much (and too early). We don't know how these new units will work and interact with each other yet. We don't know how they'll balance them.
The Tempest looks pretty slow, and it has to be weak to something right? Either Hydras or Corruptors (does that sucker have a bonus against light?). Maybe the Viper abduct ability will allow Zergs to deal with them just fine. Or maybe not, but there will probably be a way to make Mutas work. Just look at ZvZ, theoretically infestors should make Muta play impossible, yet they're pretty standard these days.
And again, look at how the Viper can make Mutas ridiculous, and you'll see why they're adding these units.
On November 01 2011 19:17 Arisen wrote: Also, you call backstab's an amove army...what the fuck is the zerg supposed to do, dance his zerglings into your base? I'm sorry, but backstabs don't require "simcity and tanks" to stop, that's retarded. Yeah, if you're willing to throw away 60 zerglings on a counter, you need a decent force to kill it, but the attack you're doing is going to kill the zerg.
Unless this is Steppes of War, you can sac lings in a counter while the Terran army is midfield, and rebuild the lings before the attack hits.
I'm going to ignore the fact that you can't discuss something without throwing around insults.
During PvZ i generally have problems dealing with mutalisks, because i believe that in the mid game they become difficult to deal with APM based, just because in the mid game we dont have large armies or nessecarily like Blink or Storm. Regardless of if you have cannons in some parts of your base it is still difficult to deal with.
It could also be that blizzard dont want too many strategies of massing unit that are viable against several races? dunno.
On November 01 2011 21:14 MilesTeg wrote: You're completely wrong. Mutas are not a niche unit, they need to be useful even when scouted. Starcraft isn't about "I scouted your mutas, so I made my anti-muta and won!". That would be terrible for the game and would make Mutas a cheesy and horrible unit.
As it stands all 3 races have answers to Mutas, but Mutas will always be a problem regardless of what you do. That's the way it should be.
No, the problem is that some answers to Mutas are impractical in the late game, especially for Protoss. There shouldn't be an immediate "mutas are useless now" button, but there should be a tech path that makes you safe against mutas without crippling your own offensive capability.
EPT
