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On November 01 2011 18:43 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 18:36 zul wrote:On November 01 2011 18:24 Whitewing wrote:On November 01 2011 18:15 Thezzy wrote:
The main issue with Mutalisks (if there truly is one, I play Terran and I'm mixed about this) is that with solid micro, Mutalisks rarely die, and either force Terran back to the base for damage control or force a base trade / all-in.
Once the Muta flock reaches about 16+, Turrets, even with +2 armor and +1 range become null and void, giving you only a few seconds of time.
For Protoss, the direct counter is the Phoenix and although you can't mass them as much as Mutalisks, you generally won't need to unless Zerg is going purely for mass muta. In the case of mass mass muta, all you need to do is mass phoenixes and other AA since there won't be a lot of ground forces.
If Protoss manages to get rid of the mutas with the Phoenixes, they can still contribute heavily to the ground war, lifting up power units or doing harassment themselves.
For Terran, there is generally no air to air means to deal with a Muta ball.
Vikings, although somewhat massable via Reactors, lose badly to Mutalisks and have a bad tendency to all shoot the same Mutalisk. Furthermore, mass Viking is horrible against Zerg unless you manage to snipe every single Overlord on the map with them. Vikings also cannot chase down Mutalisks.
The best way I've found to deal with Mutas is to just not let it get that far and force them back for defense.
I aim to be shelling Zerg's third or natural before that 20 muta ball is up and running, forcing Zerg to deal with my marine/tank army instead.
If he then chooses to harass me with Mutas, I move the marine/tank army up faster.
At the same time, if Zerg does manage to get that 20 muta ball up (especially on maps like Metalopolis) whilst having decent ground forces / macro (or having defend my push), I feel completely lost as how to kill it off. You try going mass phoenix to counter mass muta and let me know how it goes when you've got 15 of them and he's got 50 mutas one shotting buildings, and has a few corrupters mixxed in. Oh, and if you try to leave your base with them, and he made ONE infestor, you instantly lose the game, and he's got the entire map because you're turtling trying to make mass phoenix. just do the math. In terms of ressources, do 15 phoenix equal 50 mutas? The larva mechanic and Zerg production in general makes any resource-based comparison of units rather pointless. Yes, mass muta is expensive, but getting to 50 mutas does not take any infrastructure investement, whereas going to 50 phoenix requires mass Stargates. Transitioning out of mass muta is rather trivial, compared to transitioning out of mass Stargate.
I just want to second this. Mass phoenix is not an option against muta. You cannot afford the stargates to produce phoenix in significant numbers. Protoss must use stalkers vs mutas.
The same thing applies for immortals vs roaches. I dare you to do a FFE into triple stargate or triple robo. As soon as a zerg notices it they will just tech switch and kill you.
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On November 01 2011 18:49 Whitewing wrote:
The best part is that if you somehow manage to get enough phoenix out and kill off the mass muta, he's taken the entire map already and laughs as he remaxes on lings, ultras or roaches, and all you've got is a bunch of phoenix.
And there you go and kill ALL his overlords so he will not make another unit for the rest of the game 
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On November 01 2011 21:45 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 18:43 yeint wrote:On November 01 2011 18:36 zul wrote:On November 01 2011 18:24 Whitewing wrote:On November 01 2011 18:15 Thezzy wrote:
The main issue with Mutalisks (if there truly is one, I play Terran and I'm mixed about this) is that with solid micro, Mutalisks rarely die, and either force Terran back to the base for damage control or force a base trade / all-in.
Once the Muta flock reaches about 16+, Turrets, even with +2 armor and +1 range become null and void, giving you only a few seconds of time.
For Protoss, the direct counter is the Phoenix and although you can't mass them as much as Mutalisks, you generally won't need to unless Zerg is going purely for mass muta. In the case of mass mass muta, all you need to do is mass phoenixes and other AA since there won't be a lot of ground forces.
If Protoss manages to get rid of the mutas with the Phoenixes, they can still contribute heavily to the ground war, lifting up power units or doing harassment themselves.
For Terran, there is generally no air to air means to deal with a Muta ball.
Vikings, although somewhat massable via Reactors, lose badly to Mutalisks and have a bad tendency to all shoot the same Mutalisk. Furthermore, mass Viking is horrible against Zerg unless you manage to snipe every single Overlord on the map with them. Vikings also cannot chase down Mutalisks.
The best way I've found to deal with Mutas is to just not let it get that far and force them back for defense.
I aim to be shelling Zerg's third or natural before that 20 muta ball is up and running, forcing Zerg to deal with my marine/tank army instead.
If he then chooses to harass me with Mutas, I move the marine/tank army up faster.
At the same time, if Zerg does manage to get that 20 muta ball up (especially on maps like Metalopolis) whilst having decent ground forces / macro (or having defend my push), I feel completely lost as how to kill it off. You try going mass phoenix to counter mass muta and let me know how it goes when you've got 15 of them and he's got 50 mutas one shotting buildings, and has a few corrupters mixxed in. Oh, and if you try to leave your base with them, and he made ONE infestor, you instantly lose the game, and he's got the entire map because you're turtling trying to make mass phoenix. just do the math. In terms of ressources, do 15 phoenix equal 50 mutas? The larva mechanic and Zerg production in general makes any resource-based comparison of units rather pointless. Yes, mass muta is expensive, but getting to 50 mutas does not take any infrastructure investement, whereas going to 50 phoenix requires mass Stargates. Transitioning out of mass muta is rather trivial, compared to transitioning out of mass Stargate. I just want to second this. Mass phoenix is not an option against muta. You cannot afford the stargates to produce phoenix in significant numbers. Protoss must use stalkers vs mutas. The same thing applies for immortals vs roaches. I dare you to do a FFE into triple stargate or triple robo. As soon as a zerg notices it they will just tech switch and kill you.
That's just bullshit. If Zerg goes 2base mutas, 2base phoenix RAPE them.
If Zerg goes 3base mutas, 1gate attack RAPES him.
If Zerg goes 3base roach/ling into mutas, Protoss has plenty of time to get up a 3rd base himself, chronoboost out more than 5phoenix per minute out of 2stargates and 5stalkers per minuta and rape the 7,5mutas a zerg can produce of 3base per minute.
I don't get why Protoss blame losing games on mutalisks/infestors/broodlords whatever, when their macrogame sucks.
The problem isn't that Mutas beat Protoss, the problem is that Protoss have no build that leads into a reasonable macro game.
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Yes.
User was warned for this post
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On November 01 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 21:45 hzflank wrote:On November 01 2011 18:43 yeint wrote:On November 01 2011 18:36 zul wrote:On November 01 2011 18:24 Whitewing wrote:On November 01 2011 18:15 Thezzy wrote:
The main issue with Mutalisks (if there truly is one, I play Terran and I'm mixed about this) is that with solid micro, Mutalisks rarely die, and either force Terran back to the base for damage control or force a base trade / all-in.
Once the Muta flock reaches about 16+, Turrets, even with +2 armor and +1 range become null and void, giving you only a few seconds of time.
For Protoss, the direct counter is the Phoenix and although you can't mass them as much as Mutalisks, you generally won't need to unless Zerg is going purely for mass muta. In the case of mass mass muta, all you need to do is mass phoenixes and other AA since there won't be a lot of ground forces.
If Protoss manages to get rid of the mutas with the Phoenixes, they can still contribute heavily to the ground war, lifting up power units or doing harassment themselves.
For Terran, there is generally no air to air means to deal with a Muta ball.
Vikings, although somewhat massable via Reactors, lose badly to Mutalisks and have a bad tendency to all shoot the same Mutalisk. Furthermore, mass Viking is horrible against Zerg unless you manage to snipe every single Overlord on the map with them. Vikings also cannot chase down Mutalisks.
The best way I've found to deal with Mutas is to just not let it get that far and force them back for defense.
I aim to be shelling Zerg's third or natural before that 20 muta ball is up and running, forcing Zerg to deal with my marine/tank army instead.
If he then chooses to harass me with Mutas, I move the marine/tank army up faster.
At the same time, if Zerg does manage to get that 20 muta ball up (especially on maps like Metalopolis) whilst having decent ground forces / macro (or having defend my push), I feel completely lost as how to kill it off. You try going mass phoenix to counter mass muta and let me know how it goes when you've got 15 of them and he's got 50 mutas one shotting buildings, and has a few corrupters mixxed in. Oh, and if you try to leave your base with them, and he made ONE infestor, you instantly lose the game, and he's got the entire map because you're turtling trying to make mass phoenix. just do the math. In terms of ressources, do 15 phoenix equal 50 mutas? The larva mechanic and Zerg production in general makes any resource-based comparison of units rather pointless. Yes, mass muta is expensive, but getting to 50 mutas does not take any infrastructure investement, whereas going to 50 phoenix requires mass Stargates. Transitioning out of mass muta is rather trivial, compared to transitioning out of mass Stargate. I just want to second this. Mass phoenix is not an option against muta. You cannot afford the stargates to produce phoenix in significant numbers. Protoss must use stalkers vs mutas. The same thing applies for immortals vs roaches. I dare you to do a FFE into triple stargate or triple robo. As soon as a zerg notices it they will just tech switch and kill you. That's just bullshit. If Zerg goes 2base mutas, 2base phoenix RAPE them. If Zerg goes 3base mutas, 1gate attack RAPES him. If Zerg goes 3base roach/ling into mutas, Protoss has plenty of time to get up a 3rd base himself, chronoboost out more than 5phoenix per minute out of 2stargates and 5stalkers per minuta and rape the 7,5mutas a zerg can produce of 3base per minute. I don't get why Protoss blame losing games on mutalisks/infestors/broodlords whatever, when their macrogame sucks. The problem isn't that Mutas beat Protoss, the problem is that Protoss have no build that leads into a reasonable macro game.
I was not complaining about losing to mutas, or infestors/broodlords. I was saying that massing stargate/robo units in the early game (sub 15 minutes) is not a safe option. You cannot throw down just 2 stargates after already seeing muta on the field, as you just wont produce enough phoenix. And, I will be honest: I could make a micro mistake with phoenix and lose them all to muta cleave in a few seconds. I like to go for the safe options, such as getting a good gateway count before buildings multiple stargates, or such as not attempting to use phoenix vs muta unless I already have the infrastructure in place. None of that was a balance whine, it is simply the way to give me the best odds as protoss.
Edit: zerg never goes 2 base muta. It would be 2 base roach into 3 base muta.
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On November 01 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 21:45 hzflank wrote:On November 01 2011 18:43 yeint wrote:On November 01 2011 18:36 zul wrote:On November 01 2011 18:24 Whitewing wrote:On November 01 2011 18:15 Thezzy wrote:
The main issue with Mutalisks (if there truly is one, I play Terran and I'm mixed about this) is that with solid micro, Mutalisks rarely die, and either force Terran back to the base for damage control or force a base trade / all-in.
Once the Muta flock reaches about 16+, Turrets, even with +2 armor and +1 range become null and void, giving you only a few seconds of time.
For Protoss, the direct counter is the Phoenix and although you can't mass them as much as Mutalisks, you generally won't need to unless Zerg is going purely for mass muta. In the case of mass mass muta, all you need to do is mass phoenixes and other AA since there won't be a lot of ground forces.
If Protoss manages to get rid of the mutas with the Phoenixes, they can still contribute heavily to the ground war, lifting up power units or doing harassment themselves.
For Terran, there is generally no air to air means to deal with a Muta ball.
Vikings, although somewhat massable via Reactors, lose badly to Mutalisks and have a bad tendency to all shoot the same Mutalisk. Furthermore, mass Viking is horrible against Zerg unless you manage to snipe every single Overlord on the map with them. Vikings also cannot chase down Mutalisks.
The best way I've found to deal with Mutas is to just not let it get that far and force them back for defense.
I aim to be shelling Zerg's third or natural before that 20 muta ball is up and running, forcing Zerg to deal with my marine/tank army instead.
If he then chooses to harass me with Mutas, I move the marine/tank army up faster.
At the same time, if Zerg does manage to get that 20 muta ball up (especially on maps like Metalopolis) whilst having decent ground forces / macro (or having defend my push), I feel completely lost as how to kill it off. You try going mass phoenix to counter mass muta and let me know how it goes when you've got 15 of them and he's got 50 mutas one shotting buildings, and has a few corrupters mixxed in. Oh, and if you try to leave your base with them, and he made ONE infestor, you instantly lose the game, and he's got the entire map because you're turtling trying to make mass phoenix. just do the math. In terms of ressources, do 15 phoenix equal 50 mutas? The larva mechanic and Zerg production in general makes any resource-based comparison of units rather pointless. Yes, mass muta is expensive, but getting to 50 mutas does not take any infrastructure investement, whereas going to 50 phoenix requires mass Stargates. Transitioning out of mass muta is rather trivial, compared to transitioning out of mass Stargate. I just want to second this. Mass phoenix is not an option against muta. You cannot afford the stargates to produce phoenix in significant numbers. Protoss must use stalkers vs mutas. The same thing applies for immortals vs roaches. I dare you to do a FFE into triple stargate or triple robo. As soon as a zerg notices it they will just tech switch and kill you. That's just bullshit. If Zerg goes 2base mutas, 2base phoenix RAPE them. If Zerg goes 3base mutas, 1gate attack RAPES him. If Zerg goes 3base roach/ling into mutas, Protoss has plenty of time to get up a 3rd base himself, chronoboost out more than 5phoenix per minute out of 2stargates and 5stalkers per minuta and rape the 7,5mutas a zerg can produce of 3base per minute. I don't get why Protoss blame losing games on mutalisks/infestors/broodlords whatever, when their macrogame sucks. The problem isn't that Mutas beat Protoss, the problem is that Protoss have no build that leads into a reasonable macro game.
LOL... 2 Base Phoenix against lings sucks.. nobody ever just gets mutas alone..
You have to try to keep up production with Phoenix against muta which in reality is impossible..
Also.. If you spend to much resources countering mutas than the 93 lings that are inc to your main will just plain kill you.
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Maybe the Mutalisk could be a even larger problem that we expect. Who knows? Who knows what goes on in Dustin Browder's head?
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just magic box the freakin' tempests like you do with thors, I don't know what this fuss is all about.. You will still be able to get your mutas and pwn noobs with them, no unit will shut down a strategy all by itself.
P.S You do realize that you need a fusion core for a shredder right?
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It's just that mutalisks in huge numbers are very difficult to counter. In theory, you have to stop them before they get to huge numbers, but I imagine people have trouble doing that in the lower leagues, when in general there's a lot less confrontation and a lot more massing.
I think both units added are a fine change.
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I think mutas are really strong against Protoss. Imbalanced? I have no idea, im not good enough to assume that.
I just dont like the idea of the tempest. One unit to counter a bunch of mutas sounds kinda ridiculous. I would rather have a possibility to upgrade phoenix into corsairs.
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On November 01 2011 22:12 MMello wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 01 2011 21:45 hzflank wrote:On November 01 2011 18:43 yeint wrote:On November 01 2011 18:36 zul wrote:On November 01 2011 18:24 Whitewing wrote:On November 01 2011 18:15 Thezzy wrote:
The main issue with Mutalisks (if there truly is one, I play Terran and I'm mixed about this) is that with solid micro, Mutalisks rarely die, and either force Terran back to the base for damage control or force a base trade / all-in.
Once the Muta flock reaches about 16+, Turrets, even with +2 armor and +1 range become null and void, giving you only a few seconds of time.
For Protoss, the direct counter is the Phoenix and although you can't mass them as much as Mutalisks, you generally won't need to unless Zerg is going purely for mass muta. In the case of mass mass muta, all you need to do is mass phoenixes and other AA since there won't be a lot of ground forces.
If Protoss manages to get rid of the mutas with the Phoenixes, they can still contribute heavily to the ground war, lifting up power units or doing harassment themselves.
For Terran, there is generally no air to air means to deal with a Muta ball.
Vikings, although somewhat massable via Reactors, lose badly to Mutalisks and have a bad tendency to all shoot the same Mutalisk. Furthermore, mass Viking is horrible against Zerg unless you manage to snipe every single Overlord on the map with them. Vikings also cannot chase down Mutalisks.
The best way I've found to deal with Mutas is to just not let it get that far and force them back for defense.
I aim to be shelling Zerg's third or natural before that 20 muta ball is up and running, forcing Zerg to deal with my marine/tank army instead.
If he then chooses to harass me with Mutas, I move the marine/tank army up faster.
At the same time, if Zerg does manage to get that 20 muta ball up (especially on maps like Metalopolis) whilst having decent ground forces / macro (or having defend my push), I feel completely lost as how to kill it off. You try going mass phoenix to counter mass muta and let me know how it goes when you've got 15 of them and he's got 50 mutas one shotting buildings, and has a few corrupters mixxed in. Oh, and if you try to leave your base with them, and he made ONE infestor, you instantly lose the game, and he's got the entire map because you're turtling trying to make mass phoenix. just do the math. In terms of ressources, do 15 phoenix equal 50 mutas? The larva mechanic and Zerg production in general makes any resource-based comparison of units rather pointless. Yes, mass muta is expensive, but getting to 50 mutas does not take any infrastructure investement, whereas going to 50 phoenix requires mass Stargates. Transitioning out of mass muta is rather trivial, compared to transitioning out of mass Stargate. I just want to second this. Mass phoenix is not an option against muta. You cannot afford the stargates to produce phoenix in significant numbers. Protoss must use stalkers vs mutas. The same thing applies for immortals vs roaches. I dare you to do a FFE into triple stargate or triple robo. As soon as a zerg notices it they will just tech switch and kill you. That's just bullshit. If Zerg goes 2base mutas, 2base phoenix RAPE them. If Zerg goes 3base mutas, 1gate attack RAPES him. If Zerg goes 3base roach/ling into mutas, Protoss has plenty of time to get up a 3rd base himself, chronoboost out more than 5phoenix per minute out of 2stargates and 5stalkers per minuta and rape the 7,5mutas a zerg can produce of 3base per minute. I don't get why Protoss blame losing games on mutalisks/infestors/broodlords whatever, when their macrogame sucks. The problem isn't that Mutas beat Protoss, the problem is that Protoss have no build that leads into a reasonable macro game. LOL... 2 Base Phoenix against lings sucks.. nobody ever just gets mutas alone.. You have to try to keep up production with Phoenix against muta which in reality is impossible.. Also.. If you spend to much resources countering mutas than the 93 lings that are inc to your main will just plain kill you.
And noone goes phoenix alone. You will have tons of money for canons and zealots, which are extremly good vs zerglings, if you're not fighting in the open, while your phoenix can hunt down mutas all day, if you have enough of them to engage them directly, without even using any micro (~2/3 of the mutacount)
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On November 01 2011 22:14 ozzymoto wrote:
just magic box the freakin' tempests like you do with thors, I don't know what this fuss is all about.. You will still be able to get your mutas and pwn noobs with them, no unit will shut down a strategy all by itself.
P.S You do realize that you need a fusion core for a shredder right?
You don't need a fusion core, what are you talking about lol
You only need a techlab factory.
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On November 01 2011 19:22 sandyph wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 18:57 Velocirapture wrote:
Basically what toss needs (which is all I can really comment on) is a way to respond once mutas are scouted that makes toss safe. not a few months ago, Idra was qq-ing about there are no way for Zerg to safely scout a protoss base, this is when all Zerg do a hydra-roach-corrupter against Toss and keep losing games and then Zerg figures out that if you let Protoss max out on 3 bases then there's no way to beat them, couple with the infestor changes making Zerg start to go infestor-ling harass based play against Protoss then P qq and blizzard nefr the infestor, but the main point stands. Zerg should not let Protoss sit and max on 3 bases, thats why mutas making a resurgence so I guess its time again for P to qq and hope that Blizz will also nerf mutas  Show nested quote +After all, isnt the point of RTS play to scout and respond, not to pray for a build order victory? again, just a few months ago, if a Zerg went pass 7 minutes without detection then he is dead because there's no way for Zerg to scout 1 base protoss and if the Protoss do a DT rush, its an easy build order win. Then Zerg started to build evolution chamber early every game and suddenly they found out that they dont die to DT rush or voids rush that often.
There is a huge difference between needing to invest 100 gas here and there to be safe. Toss should never complain about having to make a couple sentries to be safe early. There is a big problem when being safe (protected against things that cant be scouted or responded to) requires multiple divergent tech paths. Also the argument that the game has been imbalanced in the past so it should be imbalanced now so everybody gets a shot seems to be an all too common opinion in these forums.
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Canada13389 Posts
I just want to weigh in and say that a massive splash unit would be bad but a decent splash unit that you can get more than one or two of would be nice. As it is, I might start leaving 2 archons in the mineral line with cannons and hope that helps.
As it is unless the mutas stack up its really difficult to kill them as protoss especially since our main GtA is pretty weak DPS against Light. But this can be overcome with good play after all.
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On November 01 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 21:45 hzflank wrote:On November 01 2011 18:43 yeint wrote:On November 01 2011 18:36 zul wrote:On November 01 2011 18:24 Whitewing wrote:On November 01 2011 18:15 Thezzy wrote:
The main issue with Mutalisks (if there truly is one, I play Terran and I'm mixed about this) is that with solid micro, Mutalisks rarely die, and either force Terran back to the base for damage control or force a base trade / all-in.
Once the Muta flock reaches about 16+, Turrets, even with +2 armor and +1 range become null and void, giving you only a few seconds of time.
For Protoss, the direct counter is the Phoenix and although you can't mass them as much as Mutalisks, you generally won't need to unless Zerg is going purely for mass muta. In the case of mass mass muta, all you need to do is mass phoenixes and other AA since there won't be a lot of ground forces.
If Protoss manages to get rid of the mutas with the Phoenixes, they can still contribute heavily to the ground war, lifting up power units or doing harassment themselves.
For Terran, there is generally no air to air means to deal with a Muta ball.
Vikings, although somewhat massable via Reactors, lose badly to Mutalisks and have a bad tendency to all shoot the same Mutalisk. Furthermore, mass Viking is horrible against Zerg unless you manage to snipe every single Overlord on the map with them. Vikings also cannot chase down Mutalisks.
The best way I've found to deal with Mutas is to just not let it get that far and force them back for defense.
I aim to be shelling Zerg's third or natural before that 20 muta ball is up and running, forcing Zerg to deal with my marine/tank army instead.
If he then chooses to harass me with Mutas, I move the marine/tank army up faster.
At the same time, if Zerg does manage to get that 20 muta ball up (especially on maps like Metalopolis) whilst having decent ground forces / macro (or having defend my push), I feel completely lost as how to kill it off. You try going mass phoenix to counter mass muta and let me know how it goes when you've got 15 of them and he's got 50 mutas one shotting buildings, and has a few corrupters mixxed in. Oh, and if you try to leave your base with them, and he made ONE infestor, you instantly lose the game, and he's got the entire map because you're turtling trying to make mass phoenix. just do the math. In terms of ressources, do 15 phoenix equal 50 mutas? The larva mechanic and Zerg production in general makes any resource-based comparison of units rather pointless. Yes, mass muta is expensive, but getting to 50 mutas does not take any infrastructure investement, whereas going to 50 phoenix requires mass Stargates. Transitioning out of mass muta is rather trivial, compared to transitioning out of mass Stargate. I just want to second this. Mass phoenix is not an option against muta. You cannot afford the stargates to produce phoenix in significant numbers. Protoss must use stalkers vs mutas. The same thing applies for immortals vs roaches. I dare you to do a FFE into triple stargate or triple robo. As soon as a zerg notices it they will just tech switch and kill you. That's just bullshit. If Zerg goes 2base mutas, 2base phoenix RAPE them. If Zerg goes 3base mutas, 1gate attack RAPES him. If Zerg goes 3base roach/ling into mutas, Protoss has plenty of time to get up a 3rd base himself, chronoboost out more than 5phoenix per minute out of 2stargates and 5stalkers per minuta and rape the 7,5mutas a zerg can produce of 3base per minute. I don't get why Protoss blame losing games on mutalisks/infestors/broodlords whatever, when their macrogame sucks. The problem isn't that Mutas beat Protoss, the problem is that Protoss have no build that leads into a reasonable macro game.
What are you talking about Toss has no build that leads into a macro game? 6-7 gate timing attacks lead into a macro game, as do many timing pushes after FFE.
Have you even watched any pro games where the zerg goes mutas? Mutas do a lot of indirect damage as well... toss has to almost fully commit to dealing with mutas and in the case of cannons, rather inefficiently.
Why are you acting as though mutas are easily counterable and useless when they are clearly not? You're talking of perfect scenarios for the toss (where they have complete knowledge of mutas incoming) when it generally isn't the case. When unprepared for, mutas do so much damage, and they can almost ignore a group of stalkers due to how much more mobile they are and the very weak dps they have. A mineral line can be gone very quickly and it forces toss to either play catch up or go for an all in....
Please play toss against mutas and see how hard they are to deal with
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They are.
But in all seriousness: not really. Terran only got the anti-air as a replacement for the Thor. I don't believe it'll do a better job, but it's something. And as far as Protoss goes Mutalisks aren't that big of a deal. Why? Because when the flock gets big enough that it would be a big danger it still wouldn't be able to effectively engage the army head on, because of High Templars and Archons.
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They are not overpowered as much as they are whine material from all those terran and protoss gold-platinum-death-ball-a-movers. Handling mutas is a delicate bussiness that can backfire on each end if not handled right. Its a good unit.
They are just introducing stupid easy counters (as in fast moving splash for terrans and a big fucking splash on all the screen for protoss) just to enforce that solid platinum level play.
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How is handling mutas hard? You see your enemy thought about moving from their mineral line. In ten seconds, their base is gone. You now fly back to your base and defend it, before they arrive.
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On November 01 2011 23:11 ProxyKnoxy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 01 2011 21:45 hzflank wrote:On November 01 2011 18:43 yeint wrote:On November 01 2011 18:36 zul wrote:On November 01 2011 18:24 Whitewing wrote:On November 01 2011 18:15 Thezzy wrote:
The main issue with Mutalisks (if there truly is one, I play Terran and I'm mixed about this) is that with solid micro, Mutalisks rarely die, and either force Terran back to the base for damage control or force a base trade / all-in.
Once the Muta flock reaches about 16+, Turrets, even with +2 armor and +1 range become null and void, giving you only a few seconds of time.
For Protoss, the direct counter is the Phoenix and although you can't mass them as much as Mutalisks, you generally won't need to unless Zerg is going purely for mass muta. In the case of mass mass muta, all you need to do is mass phoenixes and other AA since there won't be a lot of ground forces.
If Protoss manages to get rid of the mutas with the Phoenixes, they can still contribute heavily to the ground war, lifting up power units or doing harassment themselves.
For Terran, there is generally no air to air means to deal with a Muta ball.
Vikings, although somewhat massable via Reactors, lose badly to Mutalisks and have a bad tendency to all shoot the same Mutalisk. Furthermore, mass Viking is horrible against Zerg unless you manage to snipe every single Overlord on the map with them. Vikings also cannot chase down Mutalisks.
The best way I've found to deal with Mutas is to just not let it get that far and force them back for defense.
I aim to be shelling Zerg's third or natural before that 20 muta ball is up and running, forcing Zerg to deal with my marine/tank army instead.
If he then chooses to harass me with Mutas, I move the marine/tank army up faster.
At the same time, if Zerg does manage to get that 20 muta ball up (especially on maps like Metalopolis) whilst having decent ground forces / macro (or having defend my push), I feel completely lost as how to kill it off. You try going mass phoenix to counter mass muta and let me know how it goes when you've got 15 of them and he's got 50 mutas one shotting buildings, and has a few corrupters mixxed in. Oh, and if you try to leave your base with them, and he made ONE infestor, you instantly lose the game, and he's got the entire map because you're turtling trying to make mass phoenix. just do the math. In terms of ressources, do 15 phoenix equal 50 mutas? The larva mechanic and Zerg production in general makes any resource-based comparison of units rather pointless. Yes, mass muta is expensive, but getting to 50 mutas does not take any infrastructure investement, whereas going to 50 phoenix requires mass Stargates. Transitioning out of mass muta is rather trivial, compared to transitioning out of mass Stargate. I just want to second this. Mass phoenix is not an option against muta. You cannot afford the stargates to produce phoenix in significant numbers. Protoss must use stalkers vs mutas. The same thing applies for immortals vs roaches. I dare you to do a FFE into triple stargate or triple robo. As soon as a zerg notices it they will just tech switch and kill you. That's just bullshit. If Zerg goes 2base mutas, 2base phoenix RAPE them. If Zerg goes 3base mutas, 1gate attack RAPES him. If Zerg goes 3base roach/ling into mutas, Protoss has plenty of time to get up a 3rd base himself, chronoboost out more than 5phoenix per minute out of 2stargates and 5stalkers per minuta and rape the 7,5mutas a zerg can produce of 3base per minute. I don't get why Protoss blame losing games on mutalisks/infestors/broodlords whatever, when their macrogame sucks. The problem isn't that Mutas beat Protoss, the problem is that Protoss have no build that leads into a reasonable macro game. What are you talking about Toss has no build that leads into a macro game? 6-7 gate timing attacks lead into a macro game, as do many timing pushes after FFE. Have you even watched any pro games where the zerg goes mutas? Mutas do a lot of indirect damage as well... toss has to almost fully commit to dealing with mutas and in the case of cannons, rather inefficiently. Why are you acting as though mutas are easily counterable and useless when they are clearly not? You're talking of perfect scenarios for the toss (where they have complete knowledge of mutas incoming) when it generally isn't the case. When unprepared for, mutas do so much damage, and they can almost ignore a group of stalkers due to how much more mobile they are and the very weak dps they have. A mineral line can be gone very quickly and it forces toss to either play catch up or go for an all in.... Please play toss against mutas and see how hard they are to deal with
6-7gates can be easily held with roach/ling, while having an extra base and 15extra drones over Protoss. Then it's gg.
The only time those 6-7gate attacks lead in a macro game is, when they catch zerg underprepared, so he has to sacrifice something.
I'm not saying Mutalisks are useless, I'm saying that it is impossible to go mutalisks without trading armies before that AND having money saved up, which means that Zerg is ahead. Guess what, it is hard for players to win a game in which he is behind. That has nothing to do with mutalisks. Mutalisks are just one way to win the game for zerg that is ahead.
But as long as diamond and below noobies think that 10min tank/marine and 6-7gate pushes don't backfire, when they only trade ground armies, zergs will always have timing windows after that which they can abuse to get ahead in economy due to larva mechanism. The strength of Zerg is to abuse phases of the game in which they can't be pressured. The advantage of Protoss and Terran over Zerg is, that their basic units scale better in big armies. Therefore it is imperative, to NOT trade armies early.
If you don't know what I'm talking about, watch high level Koreans (Terrans and Protoss) play macro games. They never actually engage a Zerg until they have 3-4 bases, all they do is tease and harass. If you engage a Zerg before that, you have to kill him or at least do serious damage, else you are behind.
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As a zerg player, I feel that 30+ mutas are very difficult to deal with for a protoss player. Terrans have lots of powerful AA that can repel them and then timing attack and crush me.
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EPT
