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On January 26 2012 10:06 Strayline wrote:
Hmmm this feels a lot like the conversation we were having before the infestor got nerfed. People were perdicting that the PvZ matchup would go back to Zerg losing vs Colosus timing every single time... and perdicting that the game would go back to Zergs preventing Protoss from getting a third by semi-all-inning every time. Perhaps if mutas go the way of the infestor it will really happen this time and perhaps not but as a Zerg player I'm really nervous about losing another mid game option. And lets be clear, whatever is done to make it significantly harder for a flock of mutas to fly in and decimate your probe line before you can react and/or sniping an important tech building isn't going to be a minor change (be it in the form of a buff to the phoenix or a nerft to the mutas) that's sort of what Mutas do they aren't awesome combat units for the cost so if they can't do that anymore they are going to be a niche unit (at best) in the matchup.
I think you do it in baby steps, if needed at all. For example, start by giving photon cannons separate attacks vs ground and air units. Give the air attack +6 vs light and see how it goes. That means a cannon needs only 4 shots to kill a muta (unless the muta has +2 armour) rather than 5 and it wouldn't really impact anything else except cannons vs banshees in PvT.
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On January 26 2012 19:09 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 18:09 Big J wrote:On January 26 2012 05:34 fezvez wrote:I'd like to thing that it's that discussion that led to Blizzard's official statement on this topic Mass Mutalisks vs. Protoss
This has remained a community concern since we commented on the issue at BlizzCon. In light of the community’s consistent feedback, we’ve decided to re-evaluate our decision to address this issue in Heart of the Swarm though, as I mentioned in my last Q&A, we prefer to avoid making major design changes until an expansion, since that’s a time when unit changes and dramatic shifts in strategy are all to be expected. At the moment, we’re investigating how much of an impact mutalisks have on the PvZ in order to gauge whether a change is truly necessary, and if so, when the most appropriate time would be to implement a change. If the data suggests that we should make a move sooner, then changing the protoss phoenix seems like it could be the best approach. Still, due to the significant impact it could have on all protoss match ups, we’re being very careful. The rest of the article is here (balance discussion) And, personally, phoenix with splash damage as an upgrade in the fleet beacon please! Edit : I may have missed it in the previous posts, if it's the case, I'm sorry to bump it again hm... I don't really know how they want to make this work, as they themselves say it's a "community concern" - so nothing they don't really think is problematic in terms of balancing. But I kind of fail to see what they could possibly do... Stuff like splash upgrades would just make phoenix a hardcounter to hydras and probably too good vs marines and corruptors and vikings. Same goes for anything that is not a "microability"-thing. Also if the Phoenix gets an available choice on a very reactive level ("uuuupps, didnt recognize he went mass mutas... let's just start a starport"), it might just end up with the mutalisk being completly unavailable in ZvP, which would just mean that the matchup has design issues... But honestly, I don't think they will change anything regarding this before HotS. The winrates for P against Z (and T) are stabilizing overall. Since the mutalisk occurences in October or September the P winrate has only grown as far as I know... Also they can't nerf mutas, due to Korean TvZ. Maybe if they nerfed the banshee or buffed the queen or infestors or something else like that, it could be possible. But that would mean a lot of major changes, something we won't see before HotS. "Stuff like splash upgrades would just make phoenix a hardcounter to hydras and probably too good vs marines" hmmm?? mutas were kind of obsolete against mass corsairs with upgrades (devour > corsair). splash dmg for phoenix is good idea but the autoattack will cause some problems as splitting and scourge, if available will be useless vs move while attacking. but i guess thats where infestor can come in, act like ensnare/maelstrom.
I guess everyone has seen those kind of games where phoenix just pick apart hydras, before the critical mass that can defend itself against them is reached. Splash would mean that you can lift more hydras while keeping the overall damage against them the same/increasing it (all lifted hydras get splashed) while the hydras do less damage.
Same goes for marines. Not that phoenix would be good against marines then, but they might be too good in combination with everything else.
Not gonna comment on the BW part... It's another game. This game is designed to have mass mutas, BW was not.
On January 26 2012 19:17 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 10:06 Strayline wrote:
Hmmm this feels a lot like the conversation we were having before the infestor got nerfed. People were perdicting that the PvZ matchup would go back to Zerg losing vs Colosus timing every single time... and perdicting that the game would go back to Zergs preventing Protoss from getting a third by semi-all-inning every time. Perhaps if mutas go the way of the infestor it will really happen this time and perhaps not but as a Zerg player I'm really nervous about losing another mid game option. And lets be clear, whatever is done to make it significantly harder for a flock of mutas to fly in and decimate your probe line before you can react and/or sniping an important tech building isn't going to be a minor change (be it in the form of a buff to the phoenix or a nerft to the mutas) that's sort of what Mutas do they aren't awesome combat units for the cost so if they can't do that anymore they are going to be a niche unit (at best) in the matchup. I think you do it in baby steps, if needed at all. For example, start by giving photon cannons separate attacks vs ground and air units. Give the air attack +6 vs light and see how it goes. That means a cannon needs only 4 shots to kill a muta (unless the muta has +2 armour) rather than 5 and it wouldn't really impact anything else except cannons vs banshees in PvT.
canons vs medivacs. Also the last thing this game needs is more ways to prevent zerg from playing active. There is already no other way to harass a turtling player properly.
But I guess that's what people want. Opponents that don't interact with them and after 20mins of army building one tries to kill the other with one attack...
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But (almost) 20 minutes before an attack is exactly what mutas do in the PvZ matchup currently. The optimal response to mutas (in my opinion) is to go into full turtle mode and not move out until maxed, with enough of a surplus to put up extra cannons before you move out.
Why is the TvZ matchup different? There are probably a lot of small reasons, but it seems to me is that the biggest reason is that terran can ward off the mutas with a much smaller mineral investment than protoss due to the increased effectiveness of turrets and marines compared to cannons and stalkers. As such, increasing the effect of cannons and stalkers against mutalisks might be the way to enable protoss to move out earlier. However, buffing stalkers in any way would completely alter all three protoss matchups, and require many other changes to me made. So it seems to me that if you want protoss to move out earlier against muta play then cannons need to be changed. No one wants to see cannons have increased damage against ground units, so they would need a seperate anti air attack. No one wants to see cannons do more damage to overlords (drops), so it would have to be something that only affected light units.
As for preventing zergs from playing active: isn't that down to the maps? Zerglings are the perfect active unit if they have open space, but most of the maps have a lot of defensive chokes and ramps. For a start, not having any kind of ramp leading to third bases makes a huge difference to the effectiveness of zerglings in the midgame, while also stopping forcefields being used to deny opponents thirds.
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On January 26 2012 21:16 hzflank wrote:
But (almost) 20 minutes before an attack is exactly what mutas do in the PvZ matchup currently. The optimal response to mutas (in my opinion) is to go into full turtle mode and not move out until maxed, with enough of a surplus to put up extra cannons before you move out.
Why is the TvZ matchup different? There are probably a lot of small reasons, but it seems to me is that the biggest reason is that terran can ward off the mutas with a much smaller mineral investment than protoss due to the increased effectiveness of turrets and marines compared to cannons and stalkers. As such, increasing the effect of cannons and stalkers against mutalisks might be the way to enable protoss to move out earlier. However, buffing stalkers in any way would completely alter all three protoss matchups, and require many other changes to me made. So it seems to me that if you want protoss to move out earlier against muta play then cannons need to be changed. No one wants to see cannons have increased damage against ground units, so they would need a seperate anti air attack. No one wants to see cannons do more damage to overlords (drops), so it would have to be something that only affected light units.
As for preventing zergs from playing active: isn't that down to the maps? Zerglings are the perfect active unit if they have open space, but most of the maps have a lot of defensive chokes and ramps. For a start, not having any kind of ramp leading to third bases makes a huge difference to the effectiveness of zerglings in the midgame, while also stopping forcefields being used to deny opponents thirds.
I kind of disagree. Kind of, because I can see how the mutas prevent a lot of activeness from Protoss. But on the other hand, there is not a lot what Protoss could do at that phase anyways, apart from a commited attack, warp prism or dts, due to roach/ling just rolling through any group of smaller units at that time. Well, and the other two (dt and prism), are still possible with mutas out.
And yes, ofc it's a question of maps. But that's what the game is being balanced around.
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For every 30min ZvP that I win with a mass muta base trade, I lose about 2 20min ZvP due to getting rolled by the seemingly flavor of the day-ish 4 colossus/Mass blink stalker with +3.
I find that it is hard to deny the protoss a third base when going mutas since they learned to cannon up. They do however still get storm way too late. Protoss needs to be aware that they can dump a lot of resources into tech when Z is playing mass mutas.
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On January 27 2012 01:07 eloist wrote:
For every 30min ZvP that I win with a mass muta base trade, I lose about 2 20min ZvP due to getting rolled by the seemingly flavor of the day-ish 4 colossus/Mass blink stalker with +3.
I find that it is hard to deny the protoss a third base when going mutas since they learned to cannon up. They do however still get storm way too late. Protoss needs to be aware that they can dump a lot of resources into tech when Z is playing mass mutas.
How is robo tech (espeically the time it takes to get 4 colo) beating your mass muta?
Muta keeps protoss on 2 base
i see no reason why you should be letting them get the army you described.
If they want to max on 2 base, sobeit.
im sure they will have fun against 5 base zerg with spine wall and insta re-max
..or you could just base race it.. whatever
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On January 27 2012 02:52 Roxy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 01:07 eloist wrote:
For every 30min ZvP that I win with a mass muta base trade, I lose about 2 20min ZvP due to getting rolled by the seemingly flavor of the day-ish 4 colossus/Mass blink stalker with +3.
I find that it is hard to deny the protoss a third base when going mutas since they learned to cannon up. They do however still get storm way too late. Protoss needs to be aware that they can dump a lot of resources into tech when Z is playing mass mutas. How is robo tech (espeically the time it takes to get 4 colo) beating your mass muta? Muta keeps protoss on 2 basei see no reason why you should be letting them get the army you described. If they want to max on 2 base, sobeit. im sure they will have fun against 5 base zerg with spine wall and insta re-max ..or you could just base race it.. whatever
If you don't have a third base at ~11-12min (standard mutalisk timing) and play against a 3base zerg with good saturation, then you have lost anyways.
I see no reason why the Protoss should have any chance of winning the game in this situation. I'd like to see you complain about another Protoss beating you that has mined like ~50% more than you in a game.
And if you have trouble with earlier mutas (like 10min or earlier): scout it, kill him.
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On January 27 2012 03:16 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 02:52 Roxy wrote:On January 27 2012 01:07 eloist wrote:
For every 30min ZvP that I win with a mass muta base trade, I lose about 2 20min ZvP due to getting rolled by the seemingly flavor of the day-ish 4 colossus/Mass blink stalker with +3.
I find that it is hard to deny the protoss a third base when going mutas since they learned to cannon up. They do however still get storm way too late. Protoss needs to be aware that they can dump a lot of resources into tech when Z is playing mass mutas. How is robo tech (espeically the time it takes to get 4 colo) beating your mass muta? Muta keeps protoss on 2 basei see no reason why you should be letting them get the army you described. If they want to max on 2 base, sobeit. im sure they will have fun against 5 base zerg with spine wall and insta re-max ..or you could just base race it.. whatever If you don't have a third base at ~11-12min (standard mutalisk timing) and play against a 3base zerg with good saturation, then you have lost anyways. I see no reason why the Protoss should have any chance of winning the game in this situation. I'd like to see you complain about another Protoss beating you that has mined like ~50% more than you in a game. And if you have trouble with earlier mutas (like 10min or earlier): scout it, kill him.
Well, a mutalisking player is gonna 2 base and likely double expo when the threat of a 6 gate isnt there, so really its 2 base vs 4 if you can't secure a third.'
edit: 666 posts never posting again
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On January 27 2012 05:58 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 03:16 Big J wrote:On January 27 2012 02:52 Roxy wrote:On January 27 2012 01:07 eloist wrote:
For every 30min ZvP that I win with a mass muta base trade, I lose about 2 20min ZvP due to getting rolled by the seemingly flavor of the day-ish 4 colossus/Mass blink stalker with +3.
I find that it is hard to deny the protoss a third base when going mutas since they learned to cannon up. They do however still get storm way too late. Protoss needs to be aware that they can dump a lot of resources into tech when Z is playing mass mutas. How is robo tech (espeically the time it takes to get 4 colo) beating your mass muta? Muta keeps protoss on 2 basei see no reason why you should be letting them get the army you described. If they want to max on 2 base, sobeit. im sure they will have fun against 5 base zerg with spine wall and insta re-max ..or you could just base race it.. whatever If you don't have a third base at ~11-12min (standard mutalisk timing) and play against a 3base zerg with good saturation, then you have lost anyways. I see no reason why the Protoss should have any chance of winning the game in this situation. I'd like to see you complain about another Protoss beating you that has mined like ~50% more than you in a game. And if you have trouble with earlier mutas (like 10min or earlier): scout it, kill him. Well, a mutalisking player is gonna 2 base and likely double expo when the threat of a 6 gate isnt there, so really its 2 base vs 4 if you can't secure a third.' edit: 666 posts never posting again
2base mutas is just a cheese build. If you are prepared, the zerg is dead. If you are not, damage is being done. I guess you confuse this with standard play, because you don't die if the cheese is sucessful.
2base mutas sucks so hard, that half of the time when the zerg sets up for it, he won't even build the fast mutas, due to being under pressure and dying if he really commited to it.
also: grats to your 666th !
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On January 27 2012 06:24 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 05:58 Tyrant0 wrote:On January 27 2012 03:16 Big J wrote:On January 27 2012 02:52 Roxy wrote:On January 27 2012 01:07 eloist wrote:
For every 30min ZvP that I win with a mass muta base trade, I lose about 2 20min ZvP due to getting rolled by the seemingly flavor of the day-ish 4 colossus/Mass blink stalker with +3.
I find that it is hard to deny the protoss a third base when going mutas since they learned to cannon up. They do however still get storm way too late. Protoss needs to be aware that they can dump a lot of resources into tech when Z is playing mass mutas. How is robo tech (espeically the time it takes to get 4 colo) beating your mass muta? Muta keeps protoss on 2 basei see no reason why you should be letting them get the army you described. If they want to max on 2 base, sobeit. im sure they will have fun against 5 base zerg with spine wall and insta re-max ..or you could just base race it.. whatever If you don't have a third base at ~11-12min (standard mutalisk timing) and play against a 3base zerg with good saturation, then you have lost anyways. I see no reason why the Protoss should have any chance of winning the game in this situation. I'd like to see you complain about another Protoss beating you that has mined like ~50% more than you in a game. And if you have trouble with earlier mutas (like 10min or earlier): scout it, kill him. Well, a mutalisking player is gonna 2 base and likely double expo when the threat of a 6 gate isnt there, so really its 2 base vs 4 if you can't secure a third.' edit: 666 posts never posting again 2base mutas is just a cheese build. If you are prepared, the zerg is dead. If you are not, damage is being done. I guess you confuse this with standard play, because you don't die if the cheese is sucessful. 2base mutas sucks so hard, that half of the time when the zerg sets up for it, he won't even build the fast mutas, due to being under pressure and dying if he really commited to it. also: grats to your 666th !
No it's not. GL taking a third and having spines in a position to both defend it and your natural against a smart protoss doing a 6 gate. Hits 1.5-2 minutes before mutas pop and all you have are speedlings or even delayed roaches to stop it if he hits the right position.
also: thanks
edit: fuck its 667
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Fantastic PvZ on Tal'Darim between Mana and Destiny in IPTL just finished. It really showed off how bad that map is for PvZ, with zerg having trouble securing a third base followed by protoss being unable to defend mutalisks sitting between his main and third. I think an important point in P vs muta is that you need to be able to use blink to reduce the travel time between your main and third, and if the map does not let you then you need to think of something other than stalkers.
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On January 27 2012 08:11 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 06:24 Big J wrote:On January 27 2012 05:58 Tyrant0 wrote:On January 27 2012 03:16 Big J wrote:On January 27 2012 02:52 Roxy wrote:On January 27 2012 01:07 eloist wrote:
For every 30min ZvP that I win with a mass muta base trade, I lose about 2 20min ZvP due to getting rolled by the seemingly flavor of the day-ish 4 colossus/Mass blink stalker with +3.
I find that it is hard to deny the protoss a third base when going mutas since they learned to cannon up. They do however still get storm way too late. Protoss needs to be aware that they can dump a lot of resources into tech when Z is playing mass mutas. How is robo tech (espeically the time it takes to get 4 colo) beating your mass muta? Muta keeps protoss on 2 basei see no reason why you should be letting them get the army you described. If they want to max on 2 base, sobeit. im sure they will have fun against 5 base zerg with spine wall and insta re-max ..or you could just base race it.. whatever If you don't have a third base at ~11-12min (standard mutalisk timing) and play against a 3base zerg with good saturation, then you have lost anyways. I see no reason why the Protoss should have any chance of winning the game in this situation. I'd like to see you complain about another Protoss beating you that has mined like ~50% more than you in a game. And if you have trouble with earlier mutas (like 10min or earlier): scout it, kill him. Well, a mutalisking player is gonna 2 base and likely double expo when the threat of a 6 gate isnt there, so really its 2 base vs 4 if you can't secure a third.' edit: 666 posts never posting again 2base mutas is just a cheese build. If you are prepared, the zerg is dead. If you are not, damage is being done. I guess you confuse this with standard play, because you don't die if the cheese is sucessful. 2base mutas sucks so hard, that half of the time when the zerg sets up for it, he won't even build the fast mutas, due to being under pressure and dying if he really commited to it. also: grats to your 666th ! No it's not. GL taking a third and having spines in a position to both defend it and your natural against a smart protoss doing a 6 gate. Hits 1.5-2 minutes before mutas pop and all you have are speedlings or even delayed roaches to stop it if he hits the right position. also: thanks edit: fuck its 667
This is why the professional zergs go 3 base and (try to) use a mixture of roaches and spines to hold their bases, then drop a spire once they have defended the first push.
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On January 27 2012 08:11 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 06:24 Big J wrote:On January 27 2012 05:58 Tyrant0 wrote:On January 27 2012 03:16 Big J wrote:On January 27 2012 02:52 Roxy wrote:On January 27 2012 01:07 eloist wrote:
For every 30min ZvP that I win with a mass muta base trade, I lose about 2 20min ZvP due to getting rolled by the seemingly flavor of the day-ish 4 colossus/Mass blink stalker with +3.
I find that it is hard to deny the protoss a third base when going mutas since they learned to cannon up. They do however still get storm way too late. Protoss needs to be aware that they can dump a lot of resources into tech when Z is playing mass mutas. How is robo tech (espeically the time it takes to get 4 colo) beating your mass muta? Muta keeps protoss on 2 basei see no reason why you should be letting them get the army you described. If they want to max on 2 base, sobeit. im sure they will have fun against 5 base zerg with spine wall and insta re-max ..or you could just base race it.. whatever If you don't have a third base at ~11-12min (standard mutalisk timing) and play against a 3base zerg with good saturation, then you have lost anyways. I see no reason why the Protoss should have any chance of winning the game in this situation. I'd like to see you complain about another Protoss beating you that has mined like ~50% more than you in a game. And if you have trouble with earlier mutas (like 10min or earlier): scout it, kill him. Well, a mutalisking player is gonna 2 base and likely double expo when the threat of a 6 gate isnt there, so really its 2 base vs 4 if you can't secure a third.' edit: 666 posts never posting again 2base mutas is just a cheese build. If you are prepared, the zerg is dead. If you are not, damage is being done. I guess you confuse this with standard play, because you don't die if the cheese is sucessful. 2base mutas sucks so hard, that half of the time when the zerg sets up for it, he won't even build the fast mutas, due to being under pressure and dying if he really commited to it. also: grats to your 666th ! No it's not. GL taking a third and having spines in a position to both defend it and your natural against a smart protoss doing a 6 gate. Hits 1.5-2 minutes before mutas pop and all you have are speedlings or even delayed roaches to stop it if he hits the right position. also: thanks edit: fuck its 667
yeah, that's exactly why people don't go 3base + mutas. And you need that 5th and 6th gas, so that you can build enough mutalisks against a 2base Protoss to contain him. Or the Protoss has to waste a lot of stalkers before that - something a lot of Protoss players do, in a situation where they absolutly don't have to. Otherwise you will just not have enough mutas to achieve any form of contain - at least not on balanced maps.
Also 2base mutas dies horribly against a blink build... Which imo is able to kill/defend pretty much anything 2base Zerg can throw at a Protoss.
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EPT
