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On January 25 2012 05:30 Jerubaal wrote:
On topic, doesn't it seem like the only way to defeat mutas is to bait them into making mistakes? When do you really see mutas dying except in the following circumstances: 1) Miscontrol that leads to big hits (thor hits and blink ups. 2) Force the mutas to engage, i.e. attack their base 3) Mutas mistakenly think they can attack a force e.g. idrA thinks he can kill those marines.
The second option seems pretty crummy to me, but that's how a lot of PvZs with mutas end up, with the Protoss deciding the only way to win is to attack before there are too many mutas. The first option is ok for terran, but not as good for Protoss. You can blink 20 stalkers (that's a lot) at 10 mutas and, if you're lucky as hell, you'll kill two.
I think your point #1 could use more elaboration because it can be seen as misleading- Psi Storm, Archons and Marine clusters also lead to large muta losses when the Zerg mismicros. This doesn't change the nature of the fact, but it does make the event more likely to happen; for instance, all it takes is one or two Psi Storms on AFK autoattacking mutas to stop them dead in their tracks, making it theoretically possible to defend against them with just a few Templars.
That said, it bears noting that options 1 and 3 offer almost no counterplay- it's the Zerg player who has to make a mistake, and if he doesn't, then there's very little his opponent can do about the mutas other than delay them for a few seconds with turrets and cannons and such. The fact that the only reliable method to defeat them (i.e. it doesn't hinge on your Zerg opponent messing up) is #2 is extremely preoccupying for me; partly as a balance concern, and partly as a gameplay concern. Is a game of skill like Starcraft 2 really supposed to revolve around hoping your Zerg opponent makes a mistake and loses half of his mutas carelessly? My answer to that question is a resounding no; the game really should have more effective counterplay options.
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On January 25 2012 21:40 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 05:30 Jerubaal wrote:
On topic, doesn't it seem like the only way to defeat mutas is to bait them into making mistakes? When do you really see mutas dying except in the following circumstances: 1) Miscontrol that leads to big hits (thor hits and blink ups. 2) Force the mutas to engage, i.e. attack their base 3) Mutas mistakenly think they can attack a force e.g. idrA thinks he can kill those marines.
The second option seems pretty crummy to me, but that's how a lot of PvZs with mutas end up, with the Protoss deciding the only way to win is to attack before there are too many mutas. The first option is ok for terran, but not as good for Protoss. You can blink 20 stalkers (that's a lot) at 10 mutas and, if you're lucky as hell, you'll kill two. I think your point #1 could use more elaboration because it can be seen as misleading- Psi Storm, Archons and Marine clusters also lead to large muta losses when the Zerg mismicros. This doesn't change the nature of the fact, but it does make the event more likely to happen; for instance, all it takes is one or two Psi Storms on AFK autoattacking mutas to stop them dead in their tracks, making it theoretically possible to defend against them with just a few Templars. That said, it bears noting that options 1 and 3 offer almost no counterplay- it's the Zerg player who has to make a mistake, and if he doesn't, then there's very little his opponent can do about the mutas other than delay them for a few seconds with turrets and cannons and such. The fact that the only reliable method to defeat them (i.e. it doesn't hinge on your Zerg opponent messing up) is #2 is extremely preoccupying for me; partly as a balance concern, and partly as a gameplay concern. Is a game of skill like Starcraft 2 really supposed to revolve around hoping your Zerg opponent makes a mistake and loses half of his mutas carelessly? My answer to that question is a resounding no; the game really should have more effective counterplay options.
I also feel like it's possible to consider that if a protoss or terran doesn't make mistakes either: not whiffing storms knowing the zerg will bait them, or having their stalkers/archons placed in such a way that leaves huge gaps for mutas to find and fit between. Or even a terran leaving gaps with marines/thors/turrets that it's just very possible to take little to no damage, max, and make a decisive blow before the zerg can remax. Technically a zerg can bait storms as much as he wants, the Protoss can storm the instant he overcommits, and storms get stronger as the muta ball grows. Zergs definitely aren't at the level to control multiple balls yet. The exact same argument can be made for mutas or ANY expensive, fragile unit that is reliant on dealing damage to work, that they ALL rely on your opponent making mistakes. Mutas are the single most mobile and capitalize on mistakes the fastest, but solutions can also be found outside of the sheer simplicity of physically deflecting mutas through superior builds.
It's definitely been done before. It's so utterly dependent on how greedy the toss and zerg opened and how much damage the protoss takes initially. I mean, if it is imbalanced it could also be that it's too difficult for protoss to be as greedy as zerg and consequently keep up while they're on mutas, and the balance changes come through buffing early toss/nerfing early zerg- if it WAS imbalanced which im not suggesting. Theres so many avenues to look at this 'issue.'
Every single meta game something becomes powerful, everyone both normal and pros come across pretty clueless, it gets cracked and the meta game shifts. I personally don't even find mutas that strong. Long before they were even viable again PvZ, protoss were given very, very few opportunities to explore the match-up from the perspective of mitigating muta damage. Terrans have been doing it for a while and have won much more as a result- completely disregarding any legitimate/illegitimate concerns of balance.
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On January 25 2012 14:23 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 13:13 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 25 2012 05:16 Blasterion wrote:On January 25 2012 05:14 Mr Showtime wrote:
No. Lower level player cannot weigh in on balance. The large skill deficiencies make that impossible. They don't play the game right (or rather efficiently), so they cannot tell what is balanced or not.
Secondly, why the hell is this thread still open and being bumped. Mutas are not OP. Period.
ZvP: storms, archon, pheonix, and stalkers (until mass muta arises, in which case storm shreds them).
ZvT: marines, thor, HSM ravens (not always as practical).
More than enough options for each race. P has a few more choices, but T gets to use the stupid cheap T1 unit to counter.
When you post like that it makes you seem very unreasonable and angry. Let's be open to discussions there's no harm in having one. There is absolutely no harm in discussing strategy regarding mutas in each match-up. This thread isn't about that. It's about balance. All I am saying is that each race has more than enough options to deal with mutas, so "mutas imba" should be out of the question. How players should go about dealing with mutas is an entirely different story and SHOULD be discussed. Also forgot to mention that T and P have turrets and cannons respectively, so there's another line of defense. Not sure if you were at all referring to my first point, but I stand by that. Until you have Grandmaster level MMR, you have no right making balance assessments because you still can get better at the game. Sorry if I came across as angry. I'm not. Hopefully this post clears up what appeared to be unreasonable. If not..... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Well, good since that's the exact thing I have been advocating in this thread. In all my recent posts I have been discussing methods of fighting mutas in TvZ.
That's great, but bring up those points in threads relating to "mutas in TvZ." It baffles me that this thread is still open since Liquid forbids balance talk. The word "balance" is in the fucking title. I know the OP makes decent claims compared to other balance discussions, but it's essentially the same.
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On January 25 2012 01:36 -y0shi- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 00:46 liberal wrote:
No, mutas are not overpowered at all. Terran has enough means of dealing with them, as does protoss.
Really though, the best way to deal with mutalisks is to pressure and not sit there and turtle. Protoss like to turtle as they work toward their max army and then complain when they get contained to 2 bases by mutas. Same thing with terran, the best way to reduce or delay the effectiveness of mutas is to force the zerg to spend gas on banelings and roaches.
At least blizzard is being consistent in their trend away from micro. I really believe they base their balance decisions more on what the average weak player wants and not what the top gamers want. So the moment you see mutas you start pressure and ... basetrade, great. Thats whats already happening, toss start to turtle because you never want to basetrade a zerg..
No, that's not what I said at all. I said pressure BEFORE you see mutas, which should have been implied when I used the word "delay." If you do a gateway heavy 2base attack into a zerg who's trying to tech fast mutas, you will crush them every time. Terran can't really crush a zerg in the same way unless they all in, but you can force the zerg to make banelings or roaches, which will reduce his gas count and delay his tech/macro.
Also, I've never lost to a muta base trade in my life. Mutas kill buildings MUCH slower than a toss army. If you have lings in your base as well, that's a whole different problem.
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On January 26 2012 05:06 liberal wrote:
No, that's not what I said at all. I said pressure BEFORE you see mutas, which should have been implied when I used the word "delay." If you do a gateway heavy 2base attack into a zerg who's trying to tech fast mutas, you will crush them every time. Terran can't really crush a zerg in the same way unless they all in, but you can force the zerg to make banelings or roaches, which will reduce his gas count and delay his tech/macro.
Also, I've never lost to a muta base trade in my life. Mutas kill buildings MUCH slower than a toss army. If you have lings in your base as well, that's a whole different problem.
Well, this is the problem. Theoretically, Zerg does not have to ever engage your army. It moves faster than the slowest units in the Protoss army by a large margin, and because those units cannot be left exposed, you move as fast as your slowest units.
What you're suggesting is a great idea. But this is why people who do 2 base Mutalisk plays make 10 spines, and some smaller number on 3 base. It forces your pressure to become an All-in.
Going back to the fact that they never have to actually engage your army, they can slow you down so much with just spines while they disable your economy that you actually stand no chance of dealing them any damage unless you: already did significant economic damage early, or are doing a 100% all in.
All of this is going to change, I don't see a point in debating it. Having recognized that P has the least mobility, defenders advantage, weakest core army, most difficult macro style (because of how much attention and micro the P army requires), most important supply structure, they're finally tossing Mass Recall on Nexus so the other races aren't just strictly superior.
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On January 26 2012 05:14 Tehweenus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 05:06 liberal wrote:
No, that's not what I said at all. I said pressure BEFORE you see mutas, which should have been implied when I used the word "delay." If you do a gateway heavy 2base attack into a zerg who's trying to tech fast mutas, you will crush them every time. Terran can't really crush a zerg in the same way unless they all in, but you can force the zerg to make banelings or roaches, which will reduce his gas count and delay his tech/macro.
Also, I've never lost to a muta base trade in my life. Mutas kill buildings MUCH slower than a toss army. If you have lings in your base as well, that's a whole different problem. Well, this is the problem. Theoretically, Zerg does not have to ever engage your army. It moves faster than the slowest units in the Protoss army by a large margin, and because those units cannot be left exposed, you move as fast as your slowest units. What you're suggesting is a great idea. But this is why people who do 2 base Mutalisk plays make 10 spines, and some smaller number on 3 base. It forces your pressure to become an All-in. Going back to the fact that they never have to actually engage your army, they can slow you down so much with just spines while they disable your economy that you actually stand no chance of dealing them any damage unless you: already did significant economic damage early, or are doing a 100% all in. All of this is going to change, I don't see a point in debating it. Having recognized that P has the least mobility, defenders advantage, weakest core army, most difficult macro style (because of how much attention and micro the P army requires), most important supply structure, they're finally tossing Mass Recall on Nexus so the other races aren't just strictly superior.
If protoss just puts down one cannon for every spine the zerg puts down, the muta harass is nullified immediately.
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On January 26 2012 05:14 Tehweenus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 05:06 liberal wrote:
No, that's not what I said at all. I said pressure BEFORE you see mutas, which should have been implied when I used the word "delay." If you do a gateway heavy 2base attack into a zerg who's trying to tech fast mutas, you will crush them every time. Terran can't really crush a zerg in the same way unless they all in, but you can force the zerg to make banelings or roaches, which will reduce his gas count and delay his tech/macro.
Also, I've never lost to a muta base trade in my life. Mutas kill buildings MUCH slower than a toss army. If you have lings in your base as well, that's a whole different problem. All of this is going to change, I don't see a point in debating it. Having recognized that P has the least mobility, defenders advantage, weakest core army, most difficult macro style (because of how much attention and micro the P army requires), most important supply structure, they're finally tossing Mass Recall on Nexus so the other races aren't just strictly superior.
Least mobility? With blink, cliff walking units, phoenix?
Defender's advantage? Instant warp ins.......... lol?
Weakest "core" army - what does this even mean? I'm pretty sure 200/200 Toss army beats any 200/200 army in the game.
Most difficult macro style - Larvae injects are harder than chronoboosts. Is this even debatable?
Most important supply structure - what?
If you're playing against Muta/Ling, turtle like crazy and max out on 3 base. The faster you take your third, the easier it is to defend it against mutas. Then once maxed, take all your army except for about 4-5 archons and 2-3 HTs and go kill all his bases. He cannot fight your army even without those few archons, and if he goes for the base trade, just let him kill your other two bases and cannon up your third. Storm the lings and let the archons take care of the mutas. Even magic boxed, 30 mutas against 5 archons, cannons, and some storm damage is going to leave the zerg with maybe 8 mutas left, at which point you can just walk back a few stalkers to clean them up, while continuing to kill all his stuff.
Of course, you have to have good scouting/obs placement. And have an obs sit on his Lair. If he's going to tech to Broods or Ultras, you need to know and respond accordingly.
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I'd like to thing that it's that discussion that led to Blizzard's official statement on this topic
Mass Mutalisks vs. Protoss
This has remained a community concern since we commented on the issue at BlizzCon. In light of the community’s consistent feedback, we’ve decided to re-evaluate our decision to address this issue in Heart of the Swarm though, as I mentioned in my last Q&A, we prefer to avoid making major design changes until an expansion, since that’s a time when unit changes and dramatic shifts in strategy are all to be expected. At the moment, we’re investigating how much of an impact mutalisks have on the PvZ in order to gauge whether a change is truly necessary, and if so, when the most appropriate time would be to implement a change. If the data suggests that we should make a move sooner, then changing the protoss phoenix seems like it could be the best approach. Still, due to the significant impact it could have on all protoss match ups, we’re being very careful.
The rest of the article is here (balance discussion)
And, personally, phoenix with splash damage as an upgrade in the fleet beacon please!
Edit : I may have missed it in the previous posts, if it's the case, I'm sorry to bump it again
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mutalisks in a small group aren't overpowered per say, but if a player goes only mutas, it can wreak havoc in your base, basically destroying your economy if it doesn't already destroy everything you do.
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On January 26 2012 05:27 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 05:14 Tehweenus wrote:On January 26 2012 05:06 liberal wrote:
No, that's not what I said at all. I said pressure BEFORE you see mutas, which should have been implied when I used the word "delay." If you do a gateway heavy 2base attack into a zerg who's trying to tech fast mutas, you will crush them every time. Terran can't really crush a zerg in the same way unless they all in, but you can force the zerg to make banelings or roaches, which will reduce his gas count and delay his tech/macro.
Also, I've never lost to a muta base trade in my life. Mutas kill buildings MUCH slower than a toss army. If you have lings in your base as well, that's a whole different problem. Well, this is the problem. Theoretically, Zerg does not have to ever engage your army. It moves faster than the slowest units in the Protoss army by a large margin, and because those units cannot be left exposed, you move as fast as your slowest units. What you're suggesting is a great idea. But this is why people who do 2 base Mutalisk plays make 10 spines, and some smaller number on 3 base. It forces your pressure to become an All-in. Going back to the fact that they never have to actually engage your army, they can slow you down so much with just spines while they disable your economy that you actually stand no chance of dealing them any damage unless you: already did significant economic damage early, or are doing a 100% all in. All of this is going to change, I don't see a point in debating it. Having recognized that P has the least mobility, defenders advantage, weakest core army, most difficult macro style (because of how much attention and micro the P army requires), most important supply structure, they're finally tossing Mass Recall on Nexus so the other races aren't just strictly superior. If protoss just puts down one cannon for every spine the zerg puts down, the muta harass is nullified immediately.
Are you being facetious? That must be around 21 cannons on 3 bases, or 3150 minerals. Also, it would probably not shut them down for very long.
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On January 26 2012 05:33 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 05:14 Tehweenus wrote:On January 26 2012 05:06 liberal wrote:
No, that's not what I said at all. I said pressure BEFORE you see mutas, which should have been implied when I used the word "delay." If you do a gateway heavy 2base attack into a zerg who's trying to tech fast mutas, you will crush them every time. Terran can't really crush a zerg in the same way unless they all in, but you can force the zerg to make banelings or roaches, which will reduce his gas count and delay his tech/macro.
Also, I've never lost to a muta base trade in my life. Mutas kill buildings MUCH slower than a toss army. If you have lings in your base as well, that's a whole different problem. All of this is going to change, I don't see a point in debating it. Having recognized that P has the least mobility, defenders advantage, weakest core army, most difficult macro style (because of how much attention and micro the P army requires), most important supply structure, they're finally tossing Mass Recall on Nexus so the other races aren't just strictly superior. Least mobility? With blink, cliff walking units, phoenix? Defender's advantage? Instant warp ins.......... lol? Weakest "core" army - what does this even mean? I'm pretty sure 200/200 Toss army beats any 200/200 army in the game. Most difficult macro style - Larvae injects are harder than chronoboosts. Is this even debatable? Most important supply structure - what? If you're playing against Muta/Ling, turtle like crazy and max out on 3 base. The faster you take your third, the easier it is to defend it against mutas. Then once maxed, take all your army except for about 4-5 archons and 2-3 HTs and go kill all his bases. He cannot fight your army even without those few archons, and if he goes for the base trade, just let him kill your other two bases and cannon up your third. Storm the lings and let the archons take care of the mutas. Even magic boxed, 30 mutas against 5 archons, cannons, and some storm damage is going to leave the zerg with maybe 8 mutas left, at which point you can just walk back a few stalkers to clean them up, while continuing to kill all his stuff. Of course, you have to have good scouting/obs placement. And have an obs sit on his Lair. If he's going to tech to Broods or Ultras, you need to know and respond accordingly.
Yes, that's how you're supposed to play vs Mutas. Even so, it's ridiculous hard and you're not taking into the account the macro and tech lead the Zerg gets just from harassing with Mutas. By the time Zerg throws away his Mutas, he should have a Broodlord flock with a crapton of Infestors.
Instant warpins won't help much vs Mutas. Have you ever been detered from a Protoss warping in 6 Stalkers lol? Stalkers don't hard counter Mutas like Marines do. And the reason why Mutas even work vs Protoss is because their mobility is so bad.
It's not as easy as you make it sound.
Edit: Also, a lot of Zergs have been making Overseers along with their Mutas just to snipe obs.
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On January 26 2012 05:45 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 05:33 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 26 2012 05:14 Tehweenus wrote:On January 26 2012 05:06 liberal wrote:
No, that's not what I said at all. I said pressure BEFORE you see mutas, which should have been implied when I used the word "delay." If you do a gateway heavy 2base attack into a zerg who's trying to tech fast mutas, you will crush them every time. Terran can't really crush a zerg in the same way unless they all in, but you can force the zerg to make banelings or roaches, which will reduce his gas count and delay his tech/macro.
Also, I've never lost to a muta base trade in my life. Mutas kill buildings MUCH slower than a toss army. If you have lings in your base as well, that's a whole different problem. All of this is going to change, I don't see a point in debating it. Having recognized that P has the least mobility, defenders advantage, weakest core army, most difficult macro style (because of how much attention and micro the P army requires), most important supply structure, they're finally tossing Mass Recall on Nexus so the other races aren't just strictly superior. Least mobility? With blink, cliff walking units, phoenix? Defender's advantage? Instant warp ins.......... lol? Weakest "core" army - what does this even mean? I'm pretty sure 200/200 Toss army beats any 200/200 army in the game. Most difficult macro style - Larvae injects are harder than chronoboosts. Is this even debatable? Most important supply structure - what? If you're playing against Muta/Ling, turtle like crazy and max out on 3 base. The faster you take your third, the easier it is to defend it against mutas. Then once maxed, take all your army except for about 4-5 archons and 2-3 HTs and go kill all his bases. He cannot fight your army even without those few archons, and if he goes for the base trade, just let him kill your other two bases and cannon up your third. Storm the lings and let the archons take care of the mutas. Even magic boxed, 30 mutas against 5 archons, cannons, and some storm damage is going to leave the zerg with maybe 8 mutas left, at which point you can just walk back a few stalkers to clean them up, while continuing to kill all his stuff. Of course, you have to have good scouting/obs placement. And have an obs sit on his Lair. If he's going to tech to Broods or Ultras, you need to know and respond accordingly. Yes, that's how you're supposed to play vs Mutas. Even so, it's ridiculous hard and you're not taking into the account the macro and tech lead the Zerg gets just from harassing with Mutas. By the time Zerg throws away his Mutas, he should have a Broodlord flock with a crapton of Infestors. Instant warpins won't help much vs Mutas. Have you ever been detered from a Protoss warping in 6 Stalkers lol? Stalkers don't hard counter Mutas like Marines do. And the reason why Mutas even work vs Protoss is because their mobility is so bad. It's not as easy as you make it sound. Edit: Also, a lot of Zergs have been making Overseers along with their Mutas just to snipe obs.
I know it's hard. You think it's easy to dodge storms, snipe HT, all the while macroing? It's hard on both sides.
How the hell should I have a Brood Lord flock with a crap ton of Infestors if I'm investing so much gas into mutas? How many times have you seen Muta/Ling players transition into 10 Broods and 15 Infestors once they lose their mutas? Answer: never. I would have to get little to no muta upgrades, maybe 1 or 2 attack or carapace ground upgrades, and have capped at 20 mutas for me to even begin to think of transitioning to brood/infestor, and 20 mutas isn't enough to deter Protoss from just coming to kill me, I need at LEAST 30-40. Not to mention the timing in which I'm getting these broods is a huge timing window for the Toss to again, just come kill me. Instant warp ins of 10+ stalkers are pretty good when used in combination with cannons and storms.
It's hard, sure, but it's no harder than Zerg trying to fight Protoss 200/200 army with mothership. All you have to do is defend defend defend then move out when you have the right unit comp and enough defense for 1 base. Also, Protosses are quick to forget that speed prisms outrun mutas, that's a way to force the mutas to come back because lings aren't going to stop zealot warp ins that well.
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On January 26 2012 05:59 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 05:45 K3Nyy wrote:On January 26 2012 05:33 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 26 2012 05:14 Tehweenus wrote:On January 26 2012 05:06 liberal wrote:
No, that's not what I said at all. I said pressure BEFORE you see mutas, which should have been implied when I used the word "delay." If you do a gateway heavy 2base attack into a zerg who's trying to tech fast mutas, you will crush them every time. Terran can't really crush a zerg in the same way unless they all in, but you can force the zerg to make banelings or roaches, which will reduce his gas count and delay his tech/macro.
Also, I've never lost to a muta base trade in my life. Mutas kill buildings MUCH slower than a toss army. If you have lings in your base as well, that's a whole different problem. All of this is going to change, I don't see a point in debating it. Having recognized that P has the least mobility, defenders advantage, weakest core army, most difficult macro style (because of how much attention and micro the P army requires), most important supply structure, they're finally tossing Mass Recall on Nexus so the other races aren't just strictly superior. Least mobility? With blink, cliff walking units, phoenix? Defender's advantage? Instant warp ins.......... lol? Weakest "core" army - what does this even mean? I'm pretty sure 200/200 Toss army beats any 200/200 army in the game. Most difficult macro style - Larvae injects are harder than chronoboosts. Is this even debatable? Most important supply structure - what? If you're playing against Muta/Ling, turtle like crazy and max out on 3 base. The faster you take your third, the easier it is to defend it against mutas. Then once maxed, take all your army except for about 4-5 archons and 2-3 HTs and go kill all his bases. He cannot fight your army even without those few archons, and if he goes for the base trade, just let him kill your other two bases and cannon up your third. Storm the lings and let the archons take care of the mutas. Even magic boxed, 30 mutas against 5 archons, cannons, and some storm damage is going to leave the zerg with maybe 8 mutas left, at which point you can just walk back a few stalkers to clean them up, while continuing to kill all his stuff. Of course, you have to have good scouting/obs placement. And have an obs sit on his Lair. If he's going to tech to Broods or Ultras, you need to know and respond accordingly. Yes, that's how you're supposed to play vs Mutas. Even so, it's ridiculous hard and you're not taking into the account the macro and tech lead the Zerg gets just from harassing with Mutas. By the time Zerg throws away his Mutas, he should have a Broodlord flock with a crapton of Infestors. Instant warpins won't help much vs Mutas. Have you ever been detered from a Protoss warping in 6 Stalkers lol? Stalkers don't hard counter Mutas like Marines do. And the reason why Mutas even work vs Protoss is because their mobility is so bad. It's not as easy as you make it sound. Edit: Also, a lot of Zergs have been making Overseers along with their Mutas just to snipe obs. I know it's hard. You think it's easy to dodge storms, snipe HT, all the while macroing? It's hard on both sides. How the hell should I have a Brood Lord flock with a crap ton of Infestors if I'm investing so much gas into mutas? How many times have you seen Muta/Ling players transition into 10 Broods and 15 Infestors once they lose their mutas? Answer: never. I would have to get little to no muta upgrades, maybe 1 or 2 attack or carapace ground upgrades, and have capped at 20 mutas for me to even begin to think of transitioning to brood/infestor, and 20 mutas isn't enough to deter Protoss from just coming to kill me, I need at LEAST 30-40. Not to mention the timing in which I'm getting these broods is a huge timing window for the Toss to again, just come kill me. Instant warp ins of 10+ stalkers are pretty good when used in combination with cannons and storms. It's hard, sure, but it's no harder than Zerg trying to fight Protoss 200/200 army with mothership. All you have to do is defend defend defend then move out when you have the right unit comp and enough defense for 1 base. Also, Protosses are quick to forget that speed prisms outrun mutas, that's a way to force the mutas to come back because lings aren't going to stop zealot warp ins that well.
Almost every ZvP I've watched lately that had Mutas, the Zerg had hive tech by the time the Protoss maxed out and pushed. I think only yesterday's game, Slush vs Cyrano was the only exception lately but Mutas gave him a huge lead with a huge bank.
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On January 26 2012 05:27 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 05:14 Tehweenus wrote:On January 26 2012 05:06 liberal wrote:
No, that's not what I said at all. I said pressure BEFORE you see mutas, which should have been implied when I used the word "delay." If you do a gateway heavy 2base attack into a zerg who's trying to tech fast mutas, you will crush them every time. Terran can't really crush a zerg in the same way unless they all in, but you can force the zerg to make banelings or roaches, which will reduce his gas count and delay his tech/macro.
Also, I've never lost to a muta base trade in my life. Mutas kill buildings MUCH slower than a toss army. If you have lings in your base as well, that's a whole different problem. Well, this is the problem. Theoretically, Zerg does not have to ever engage your army. It moves faster than the slowest units in the Protoss army by a large margin, and because those units cannot be left exposed, you move as fast as your slowest units. What you're suggesting is a great idea. But this is why people who do 2 base Mutalisk plays make 10 spines, and some smaller number on 3 base. It forces your pressure to become an All-in. Going back to the fact that they never have to actually engage your army, they can slow you down so much with just spines while they disable your economy that you actually stand no chance of dealing them any damage unless you: already did significant economic damage early, or are doing a 100% all in. All of this is going to change, I don't see a point in debating it. Having recognized that P has the least mobility, defenders advantage, weakest core army, most difficult macro style (because of how much attention and micro the P army requires), most important supply structure, they're finally tossing Mass Recall on Nexus so the other races aren't just strictly superior. If protoss just puts down one cannon for every spine the zerg puts down, the muta harass is nullified immediately.
I take it you've never seen what a half decent flock of Mutas does to a group of cannons?
Toss would need 6-7+ cannons at EACH base and even then Mutas can chew through them quick time with minimal losses, would buy time for stalkers to get there but then you'd have to rebuild the cannons. So no putting down one cannons for every spine will not nullify muta harass not even close!
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On January 26 2012 06:09 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 05:59 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 26 2012 05:45 K3Nyy wrote:On January 26 2012 05:33 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 26 2012 05:14 Tehweenus wrote:On January 26 2012 05:06 liberal wrote:
No, that's not what I said at all. I said pressure BEFORE you see mutas, which should have been implied when I used the word "delay." If you do a gateway heavy 2base attack into a zerg who's trying to tech fast mutas, you will crush them every time. Terran can't really crush a zerg in the same way unless they all in, but you can force the zerg to make banelings or roaches, which will reduce his gas count and delay his tech/macro.
Also, I've never lost to a muta base trade in my life. Mutas kill buildings MUCH slower than a toss army. If you have lings in your base as well, that's a whole different problem. All of this is going to change, I don't see a point in debating it. Having recognized that P has the least mobility, defenders advantage, weakest core army, most difficult macro style (because of how much attention and micro the P army requires), most important supply structure, they're finally tossing Mass Recall on Nexus so the other races aren't just strictly superior. Least mobility? With blink, cliff walking units, phoenix? Defender's advantage? Instant warp ins.......... lol? Weakest "core" army - what does this even mean? I'm pretty sure 200/200 Toss army beats any 200/200 army in the game. Most difficult macro style - Larvae injects are harder than chronoboosts. Is this even debatable? Most important supply structure - what? If you're playing against Muta/Ling, turtle like crazy and max out on 3 base. The faster you take your third, the easier it is to defend it against mutas. Then once maxed, take all your army except for about 4-5 archons and 2-3 HTs and go kill all his bases. He cannot fight your army even without those few archons, and if he goes for the base trade, just let him kill your other two bases and cannon up your third. Storm the lings and let the archons take care of the mutas. Even magic boxed, 30 mutas against 5 archons, cannons, and some storm damage is going to leave the zerg with maybe 8 mutas left, at which point you can just walk back a few stalkers to clean them up, while continuing to kill all his stuff. Of course, you have to have good scouting/obs placement. And have an obs sit on his Lair. If he's going to tech to Broods or Ultras, you need to know and respond accordingly. Yes, that's how you're supposed to play vs Mutas. Even so, it's ridiculous hard and you're not taking into the account the macro and tech lead the Zerg gets just from harassing with Mutas. By the time Zerg throws away his Mutas, he should have a Broodlord flock with a crapton of Infestors. Instant warpins won't help much vs Mutas. Have you ever been detered from a Protoss warping in 6 Stalkers lol? Stalkers don't hard counter Mutas like Marines do. And the reason why Mutas even work vs Protoss is because their mobility is so bad. It's not as easy as you make it sound. Edit: Also, a lot of Zergs have been making Overseers along with their Mutas just to snipe obs. I know it's hard. You think it's easy to dodge storms, snipe HT, all the while macroing? It's hard on both sides. How the hell should I have a Brood Lord flock with a crap ton of Infestors if I'm investing so much gas into mutas? How many times have you seen Muta/Ling players transition into 10 Broods and 15 Infestors once they lose their mutas? Answer: never. I would have to get little to no muta upgrades, maybe 1 or 2 attack or carapace ground upgrades, and have capped at 20 mutas for me to even begin to think of transitioning to brood/infestor, and 20 mutas isn't enough to deter Protoss from just coming to kill me, I need at LEAST 30-40. Not to mention the timing in which I'm getting these broods is a huge timing window for the Toss to again, just come kill me. Instant warp ins of 10+ stalkers are pretty good when used in combination with cannons and storms. It's hard, sure, but it's no harder than Zerg trying to fight Protoss 200/200 army with mothership. All you have to do is defend defend defend then move out when you have the right unit comp and enough defense for 1 base. Also, Protosses are quick to forget that speed prisms outrun mutas, that's a way to force the mutas to come back because lings aren't going to stop zealot warp ins that well. Almost every ZvP I've watched lately that had Mutas, the Zerg had hive tech by the time the Protoss maxed out and pushed. I think only yesterday's game, Slush vs Cyrano was the only exception lately but Mutas gave him a huge lead with a huge bank.
HIVE TECH =/= 10 Corruptors waiting to be morphed into Broods with 10 Infestors waiting underneath. Your gas bank should not be high enough to do that if you went heavy muta (30+). If it does, that means the Toss waited far too long to attack.
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On January 25 2012 21:17 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 06:21 willoc wrote:1) Pros cannot always explain imbalances thoroughly as they are players first and analyzers/designers second. That's contradictory. A professional player knows the ins and outs of the game better than anyone else. A true professional player is someone who analyzes games so well that they adapt builds and/or tactics to win the game for them. The very essence of winning at a high level is understanding why games play out the way they do. Understanding why that build worked and why that unit is strong and how to beat a certain tactic. Professional players are the best analyzers you could possibly have. Design is something else though. Still, that doesn't mean that some people don't have better design ideas than the developers of this game (some spotlighted thread not too long ago proves that).
Analyzers and Designers are trained to communicate the objects/ideas they deal with. Pros do not concentrate on communication but only understanding and execution. This is why it's not contradictory.
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Hmmm this feels a lot like the conversation we were having before the infestor got nerfed. People were perdicting that the PvZ matchup would go back to Zerg losing vs Colosus timing every single time... and perdicting that the game would go back to Zergs preventing Protoss from getting a third by semi-all-inning every time. Perhaps if mutas go the way of the infestor it will really happen this time and perhaps not but as a Zerg player I'm really nervous about losing another mid game option. And lets be clear, whatever is done to make it significantly harder for a flock of mutas to fly in and decimate your probe line before you can react and/or sniping an important tech building isn't going to be a minor change (be it in the form of a buff to the phoenix or a nerft to the mutas) that's sort of what Mutas do they aren't awesome combat units for the cost so if they can't do that anymore they are going to be a niche unit (at best) in the matchup.
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On January 26 2012 05:34 fezvez wrote:I'd like to thing that it's that discussion that led to Blizzard's official statement on this topic Show nested quote +Mass Mutalisks vs. Protoss
This has remained a community concern since we commented on the issue at BlizzCon. In light of the community’s consistent feedback, we’ve decided to re-evaluate our decision to address this issue in Heart of the Swarm though, as I mentioned in my last Q&A, we prefer to avoid making major design changes until an expansion, since that’s a time when unit changes and dramatic shifts in strategy are all to be expected. At the moment, we’re investigating how much of an impact mutalisks have on the PvZ in order to gauge whether a change is truly necessary, and if so, when the most appropriate time would be to implement a change. If the data suggests that we should make a move sooner, then changing the protoss phoenix seems like it could be the best approach. Still, due to the significant impact it could have on all protoss match ups, we’re being very careful. The rest of the article is here (balance discussion) And, personally, phoenix with splash damage as an upgrade in the fleet beacon please! Edit : I may have missed it in the previous posts, if it's the case, I'm sorry to bump it again
hm... I don't really know how they want to make this work, as they themselves say it's a "community concern" - so nothing they don't really think is problematic in terms of balancing.
But I kind of fail to see what they could possibly do... Stuff like splash upgrades would just make phoenix a hardcounter to hydras and probably too good vs marines and corruptors and vikings. Same goes for anything that is not a "microability"-thing.
Also if the Phoenix gets an available choice on a very reactive level ("uuuupps, didnt recognize he went mass mutas... let's just start a starport"), it might just end up with the mutalisk being completly unavailable in ZvP, which would just mean that the matchup has design issues...
But honestly, I don't think they will change anything regarding this before HotS. The winrates for P against Z (and T) are stabilizing overall. Since the mutalisk occurences in October or September the P winrate has only grown as far as I know...
Also they can't nerf mutas, due to Korean TvZ. Maybe if they nerfed the banshee or buffed the queen or infestors or something else like that, it could be possible. But that would mean a lot of major changes, something we won't see before HotS.
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On January 26 2012 05:33 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 05:14 Tehweenus wrote:On January 26 2012 05:06 liberal wrote:
No, that's not what I said at all. I said pressure BEFORE you see mutas, which should have been implied when I used the word "delay." If you do a gateway heavy 2base attack into a zerg who's trying to tech fast mutas, you will crush them every time. Terran can't really crush a zerg in the same way unless they all in, but you can force the zerg to make banelings or roaches, which will reduce his gas count and delay his tech/macro.
Also, I've never lost to a muta base trade in my life. Mutas kill buildings MUCH slower than a toss army. If you have lings in your base as well, that's a whole different problem. All of this is going to change, I don't see a point in debating it. Having recognized that P has the least mobility, defenders advantage, weakest core army, most difficult macro style (because of how much attention and micro the P army requires), most important supply structure, they're finally tossing Mass Recall on Nexus so the other races aren't just strictly superior. Least mobility? With blink, cliff walking units, phoenix? Defender's advantage? Instant warp ins.......... lol? Weakest "core" army - what does this even mean? I'm pretty sure 200/200 Toss army beats any 200/200 army in the game. Most difficult macro style - Larvae injects are harder than chronoboosts. Is this even debatable? Most important supply structure - what? If you're playing against Muta/Ling, turtle like crazy and max out on 3 base. The faster you take your third, the easier it is to defend it against mutas. Then once maxed, take all your army except for about 4-5 archons and 2-3 HTs and go kill all his bases. He cannot fight your army even without those few archons, and if he goes for the base trade, just let him kill your other two bases and cannon up your third. Storm the lings and let the archons take care of the mutas. Even magic boxed, 30 mutas against 5 archons, cannons, and some storm damage is going to leave the zerg with maybe 8 mutas left, at which point you can just walk back a few stalkers to clean them up, while continuing to kill all his stuff. Of course, you have to have good scouting/obs placement. And have an obs sit on his Lair. If he's going to tech to Broods or Ultras, you need to know and respond accordingly.
Fuck me, this post is so bang on, it's glorious.
Seriously, what needs to change is the maps. It's the fucking maps. Virtually every map has a full 360 degree open space that mutas can use to escape in any direction. This is a pain in the ass to defend against. Put bases up against the edge of the map and defending against mutas becomes far less of a hassle, requires less resources and less mobility.
I swear to Christ almighty that if they started making maps like this the "muta problem" wouldn't be half as bad.
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On January 26 2012 18:09 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 05:34 fezvez wrote:I'd like to thing that it's that discussion that led to Blizzard's official statement on this topic Mass Mutalisks vs. Protoss
This has remained a community concern since we commented on the issue at BlizzCon. In light of the community’s consistent feedback, we’ve decided to re-evaluate our decision to address this issue in Heart of the Swarm though, as I mentioned in my last Q&A, we prefer to avoid making major design changes until an expansion, since that’s a time when unit changes and dramatic shifts in strategy are all to be expected. At the moment, we’re investigating how much of an impact mutalisks have on the PvZ in order to gauge whether a change is truly necessary, and if so, when the most appropriate time would be to implement a change. If the data suggests that we should make a move sooner, then changing the protoss phoenix seems like it could be the best approach. Still, due to the significant impact it could have on all protoss match ups, we’re being very careful. The rest of the article is here (balance discussion) And, personally, phoenix with splash damage as an upgrade in the fleet beacon please! Edit : I may have missed it in the previous posts, if it's the case, I'm sorry to bump it again hm... I don't really know how they want to make this work, as they themselves say it's a "community concern" - so nothing they don't really think is problematic in terms of balancing. But I kind of fail to see what they could possibly do... Stuff like splash upgrades would just make phoenix a hardcounter to hydras and probably too good vs marines and corruptors and vikings. Same goes for anything that is not a "microability"-thing. Also if the Phoenix gets an available choice on a very reactive level ("uuuupps, didnt recognize he went mass mutas... let's just start a starport"), it might just end up with the mutalisk being completly unavailable in ZvP, which would just mean that the matchup has design issues... But honestly, I don't think they will change anything regarding this before HotS. The winrates for P against Z (and T) are stabilizing overall. Since the mutalisk occurences in October or September the P winrate has only grown as far as I know... Also they can't nerf mutas, due to Korean TvZ. Maybe if they nerfed the banshee or buffed the queen or infestors or something else like that, it could be possible. But that would mean a lot of major changes, something we won't see before HotS.
"Stuff like splash upgrades would just make phoenix a hardcounter to hydras and probably too good vs marines"
hmmm??
mutas were kind of obsolete against mass corsairs with upgrades (devour > corsair). splash dmg for phoenix is good idea but the autoattack will cause some problems as splitting and scourge, if available will be useless vs move while attacking. but i guess thats where infestor can come in, act like ensnare/maelstrom.
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EPT
