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On November 04 2011 07:55 jdseemoreglass wrote:
I often think that blizzard makes changes to this game based upon what the average user struggles with. The average user sucks, and doesn't have a clue how to micro marines, so they make it easier by adding a better thor. At the pro level mutalisks aren't really a problem, but if I was in gold I could probably stomp on every player every single game with mutalisks.
Maybe I'm just paranoid, but it seems like many of their changes are geared to low-end players instead of the pro scene. And I guess from a financial perspective that makes sense, since the average SC2 player doesn't follow professional starcraft much, right?
Yea, they're really not a big deal in pro matches. That's why Zergs never use them in ZvP or ZvT. So easy to deal with that once a pro gets 6-7 out, they get rolled by all those powerful marines, thors, stalkers, archons, fluffy bunnies, HTs, sentries, turrets, and cannons.
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Mutas are not Op.
The Ability to get 35 and even if I kill 20 he will have another 20 in the next production cycle it's what unbalances the unit.
30+ mutas (idra style) instakills 2 or 3 units at a time thanks to the bouncing attack.
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United States1108 Posts
On November 04 2011 09:24 ilovelings wrote:
Mutas are not Op.
The Ability to get 35 and even if I kill 20 he will have another 20 in the next production cycle it's what unbalances the unit.
As a protoss, why are you not pressuring the zerg and forcing him to spend gas on units other than mutas in the early game, thus weakening his later muta attacks?
Where is the zerg getting this additional 2000/2000 to spend on mutas... shouldn't you have just as much income to spend too?
If the zerg is remaking mutas like that it means he has spent a minimum of 900 minerals on hatcheries and queens... which is exactly what 6 gateways cost, which are enough to mass produce protoss units and spend your income efficiently. Mutas are defeated by gateway units. (I expect you can find the minerals for a 7th or 8th gateway if it really becomes necessary.)
I'm also reminded of yet another super-strong anti-muta unit that isn't always used... the sentry. Guardian shield takes not 2, but SIX damage away from every muta attack due to the bouncing nature of their attack. Stalkers with +2 armor and guardian shield take forever for mutas to kill, and one or two well placed psi storms can render a flock of mutas nearly unusable.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 04 2011 09:44 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 09:24 ilovelings wrote:
Mutas are not Op.
The Ability to get 35 and even if I kill 20 he will have another 20 in the next production cycle it's what unbalances the unit.
As a protoss, why are you not pressuring the zerg and forcing him to spend gas on units other than mutas in the early game, thus weakening his later muta attacks? Where is the zerg getting this additional 2000/2000 to spend on mutas... shouldn't you have just as much income to spend too? If the zerg is remaking mutas like that it means he has spent a minimum of 900 minerals on hatcheries and queens... which is exactly what 6 gateways cost, which are enough to mass produce protoss units and spend your income efficiently. Mutas are defeated by gateway units. (I expect you can find the minerals for a 7th or 8th gateway if it really becomes necessary.) I'm also reminded of yet another super-strong anti-muta unit that isn't always used... the sentry. Guardian shield takes not 2, but SIX damage away from every muta attack due to the bouncing nature of their attack. Stalkers with +2 armor and guardian shield take forever for mutas to kill, and one or two well placed psi storms can render a flock of mutas nearly unusable.
Sentries aren't mobile enough, yeah they're amazing in a straight up fight, but you need blink on your stalkers to deflect mutas, and the sentries can't keep up. You can't warp 'em in with guardian shield either, so that's why you don't see it.
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I can say for sure mutas are op in 2v2 in silver league :p.
In 1v1 in stright up fights they are pretty bad actually and if you get to abuse that weakness u pretty much get to faceroll the zerg as a protoss.
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If your opponent can make enough mutas to win a straight up engagement then you deserve to lose x2. Mutas are not OP.
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On November 04 2011 09:57 Mondieu wrote:
I can say for sure mutas are op in 2v2 in silver league :p.
In 1v1 in stright up fights they are pretty bad actually and if you get to abuse that weakness u pretty much get to faceroll the zerg as a protoss.
lol try 3v3 on bio lab when you play terran and a zerg on the other team gets muta.
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I go for Mass Mutas a lot nowadays, and they are definitely not OP.
You can cause alot of economic damage with them but they can almost never win a game outright by themselves.
Mutas are largely a harrassment unit to keep the opponent in the base while the zerg macro up. Small drops from the opponent can still keep the zerg in check.
Against Terrens, Mutas restrict the mobility of a Marine-Tank Army but even then, not by much.
Against protoss Mutas are largely just harrassment units. They serve little purpose else. I find that they are a good way to snipe immortals to clear the way for my roaches but even then, its tough to do so.
Honestly, some commitment to static defences and some well placed defensive units can easily minimise the damage a harrasing muta ball can do. They might even make the muta's worthless in that aspect and the zergs just commited a whole lot of resources to naught.
But that being said, the warhound and the protoss thingie would be kinda stupid. As they dont really add to much other than to severly restrict muta movement. They won't really solve the problem of the fast mutas being able to come in and out of harrassment. Adding it for open engagement scenarios is stupid also, as mutas are not really meant for that.
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I usually am rank 1-3 masters, and I can never win vs mutalisks in pvz. I think I have won less than 10 times vs them as toss, if done right on a large enough map in combiniation with speedling runbys, I think they require professional level mechancis to defend.
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On October 25 2011 18:22 Brotocol wrote:
* They justified it in TvZ as magic box being too much for Thors to handle. I don't agree with that assessment. Thor + marine micro is enough imho.
* Protoss "doesn't really need any more units" so they're giving P players something to fill the strange scenario of "40-50 mutalisks." I don't agree with their reasoning either.
I'm primarily a P player nowadays, and I think muta is perfectly dangerous right now without being OP.
There's two points I want to address, first, "Thor + marine micro is enough," good players never directly engage in a scenario where the opponent has enough thors and enough marines to deal with x mutas. Good players will use mutas to harass and split the T army in half (as someone else mentioned). Mutas are extremely mobile, and unless you have 20 turrets inside your base, you'd have to leave some units there. Mutas can join in the main Z army anytime they want, marine/thor still have to walk down ramps, etc to join up with the main army. It's a matter of mobility in this case, in which mutas are extremely useful and scary.
The second thing I want to address is that for a P player - it's almost the same as the T player - except P have better mobile anti-muta army if correctly amassed, however, mutas can still harass P players to no end (not disagreeing with you that mutas are dangerous but not OP).
The thing with Zerg is that they can tech-switch at any given time, and if Protoss goes some stalker/colossus army and Zerg defends and Protoss backs out to remass... during this time, Zerg can tech-switch and completely counter the Protoss army with mutas and even if Zerg cannot directly engage the P army, mutas can just harass from various angles and any base they want.
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On November 04 2011 09:57 Mondieu wrote:
I can say for sure mutas are op in 2v2 in silver league :p.
In 1v1 in stright up fights they are pretty bad actually and if you get to abuse that weakness u pretty much get to faceroll the zerg as a protoss.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Mutas are not designed for 1v1 straight up engagements, that's their weakness. They keep you stuck in your base killing your workers/structures bouncing from base to base so the Zerg can take the map then they can faceroll the Protoss. Of course they're bad 1v1 in straight up fights, because they're not straight up fighting units. Even so, they trade pretty well cost effectively with Stalkers for their versatility.
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I don't think Mutas are OP, because they do have very hard, easily obtainable counters: Marine+Medivac and Blink Stalker. However, I do think there is a problem with Mutas because except for those two units, they rock *everything* else in the game. It's like marines, but worse, because unlike Marines, Mutas are not dominated by AE.
Most units have more than one hard counter. There are some units in the game that are stupid because they only have 1 counter in a specific matchup (like Collosi in ZvP), but they are fine in the other matchup. Mutas are unique in that they only have 1 counter in both of its racial matchups, so I can kinda understand where Blizzard is coming from.
So it's not that Terrans needs Warhounds in order to kill Mutas *better*. Its just that they need a way to kill Mutas equally as good without using Marine+Medivac (or Blink Stalker)
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United States7483 Posts
On November 04 2011 14:24 RoboBob wrote:
I don't think Mutas are OP, because they do have very hard, easily obtainable counters: Marine+Medivac and Blink Stalker. However, I do think there is a problem with Mutas because except for those two units, they rock *everything* else in the game. It's like marines, but worse, because unlike Marines, Mutas are not dominated by AE.
Most units have more than one hard counter. There are some units in the game that are stupid because they only have 1 counter in a specific matchup (like Collosi in ZvP), but they are fine in the other matchup. Mutas are unique in that they only have 1 counter in both of its racial matchups, so I can kinda understand where Blizzard is coming from.
So it's not that Terrans needs Warhounds in order to kill Mutas *better*. Its just that they need a way to kill Mutas equally as good without using Marine+Medivac (or Blink Stalker)
Blink stalkers are a soft counter, not a hard counter. When the muta ball gets big, unless you're way ahead in upgrades, mutas actually do very well in a straight up fight against stalkers.
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I honestly think that it was necessary to get more muta counters in HOTS. They are used at the moment over than 1/3 games of PvZ and if Zerg manages to start producing mutas, before you scout Spire you are already hugely behind (if you are not going something like mass blink or 2 stargate phoenix blindly).
The most problematic thing isn't straight Mutas, but people starting to realize that you don't have to go muta straight away. They just do some roach/ling action first and then suddenly there pops out 10 mutas. Only good response imo against mutas atm is 2 stargate phoenix since blink stalkers damage output is reallyyy bad and even though you would manage to hit mutas with storm they could go back to regnerate their hp. Wise zergs wouldnt never straight engage many templars. Also one more problem with mutas is that if you want to manage to handle them you have to commit a lot money to anti-air + cannons and zergs can easily switch out to roach/hydra ling/infestor/ling whatever army and not to just keep massing mutas all game long (even tho its very strong too)
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Canada13379 Posts
On November 04 2011 14:35 Welmu wrote:
I honestly think that it was necessary to get more muta counters in HOTS. They are used at the moment over than 1/3 games of PvZ and if Zerg manages to start producing mutas, before you scout Spire you are already hugely behind (if you are not going something like mass blink or 2 stargate phoenix blindly).
The most problematic thing isn't straight Mutas, but people starting to realize that you don't have to go muta straight away. They just do some roach/ling action first and then suddenly there pops out 10 mutas. Only good response imo against mutas atm is 2 stargate phoenix since blink stalkers damage output is reallyyy bad and even though you would manage to hit mutas with storm they could go back to regnerate their hp. Wise zergs wouldnt never straight engage many templars. Also one more problem with mutas is that if you want to manage to handle them you have to commit a lot money to anti-air + cannons and zergs can easily switch out to roach/hydra ling/infestor/ling whatever army and not to just keep massing mutas all game long (even tho its very strong too)
imagine now if stalkers didn't do only 10 per attack to light. Then it wouldn't be such an issue. As it is, Protoss has no AoE for air units that is reliable (storm can only do so much to fast moving mutas) and this creates some of the problem.
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Kiwikaki bitches about them alot acording to destiny
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in pvz they are, in zvt it's all good.
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Mutalisk aren't "OP" but they are fking difficult to deal with.
I'm praying for an acceleration speed change ala BW.
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We don't need Tempests. We need Stalkers to deal flat 14 damage to all units. That is all.
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EPT
