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Muta plays are one of the most fun things to watch in tournaments. It would be sad if they disappeared.
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On November 04 2011 18:04 BandonBanshee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 17:59 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:56 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:46 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:43 BandonBanshee wrote:
Hearing terrans complain about mutas hurts my head. I do agree though that toss needs AA splash, tempest seems pretty lame though. And why should terrans not complaing about mutas? marines are better against mutas than stalkers are, but they are still too slow to defend all expos lategame and thors = archons. Vikings are alot worse vs. Mutas than Phoenixes are. Midgame it's not a problem to deal with mutas on 3 base, but once you get to 5+ it is actually impossible. On November 04 2011 17:46 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:42 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:30 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 17:20 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:13 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 16:58 doko100 wrote:
[quote]
The problem with mutas is that even if you know they are coming, once you are spread out on 5+ bases in the lategame it's absolutely impossible to defend all of them, this goes for both, terran and protoss. Mutas are simply too mobile and the counter units are either not really massable (phoenix) or too slow (marine/blink stalker). Mutas are faster than everything, look at thors and archons, if the zerg doesn't engage the thors or archons they are just useless, because you will never get them even close enough to get some shots off at the mutas.
It's their mobility what makes them so op in the lategame. You can deal with mutas, midgame, but lategame once your army is really spread out it's so hard to defend bases. I always try to avoid TvZ lategame on some maps (taldarim) because im so scared of mass muta play. They just go in and take out your 5 turrets in 2 seconds and by the time your army gets there the base is already dead and if you leave 2 thors there they won't do anything either thx to magicbox.
Another problem with Mutas is that they force the T and P to spend ALOT of ressources in static defenses such as turrets or cannons, I had lategame TvZ's where I used 4k mins on just turrets to defend against Mutas, yes I build 40 turrets in one game. Those are minerals that are spent on things that are essentially useless in a fight. So whilst the T and P have to spend so much money on cannons/turrets (and trust me in a lategame T/PvsZ this is entirely possible) the Zerg can spend all his money on army, or even spines which are more useful in fights than cannons or turrets are. On maps like Tal'Darim for example if you want to play super lategame on 6-7 base you need to make mass planetaries/mass turrets, etc.. just to be able to defend expansions that are really far away. For Protoss it's even worse because they don't have plantaries so they have to make mass cannons. I've seen games where a protoss player built 10 cannons around his 5th base just to be safe against mutas and ling attacks.
This is a general problem with zerg, their units are so quick, on maps like tal darim it's impossible to spread out your units enough to defend all expansions. Lategame vs. Z is just terrible in general if the Zerg knows how to abuse the mobility of zerg. it's so easy for zerg to mulit-harrass P and T lategame. On tal darim you can attack the fifht base on the left with lings and at the same time attack the right side with mass muta. It takes a few clicks to pull that off and the P or T needs 20x the apm the zerg player needs to stop that harrass. sadly most zerg players don't abuse this ability lategame, they rather tech to blords and just try to overwhelm the P or T but I personally am alot more scare dof lategame mass muta/ling/baneling than lategame broodlords. I still think that zergs shouldn't get broodlords at all lategame, it completely nullifies their biggest advantage which is mobility.
I win so many games where a Zerg goes mass broodlord and I just go mass ghost, but whenever a zerg goes muta/ling and harrasses mutliple bases lategame I feel like I can't win. it's actually impossible to stop this kind of harrassment, of course tal darim is a bad example because it's lategame zerg heaven especially with how the bases are layed out. but I really hope this style of muta harrass all game doesn't catch on, my win rate against that is like 10%, against Blords or ultra lategame I have close to 100% win rate in TvZ. But most zergs will realize how OP mutas are lategame once they stop using blords and ultras and just stick with mutas, you can deny every 5th or 6th base on really big maps and theres nothing t or p can do. same for all races. Do you think when zerg is on 5 bases it's easy to deal with terran drops or dt drops from toss? I can say that it's very hard, unless you make like 7 spines at each base, so your point does not prove much. No it's absolutely not the same for all races. Zerg has the easiest time to defend lategame because of how quick their units are. Mutas can literally fly across Tal Darim in 10 seconds, how long does it take a Terran army with marines? 30-40 seconds? A Protoss army? 40-50 seconds? How long does it take speedlings to run across tal darim? maybe 20 seconds? zerg units are sooo much faster than T or P units which gives them an insane advantage in defending lategame harrass of P or T. Protoss has a small advantage over the terran because they can warp in, but in most cases if you defend against mutas you are so outnumbered with your warp ins that you need to wait for the main army and their main army generally is the slowest. I play random on my second acc and main terran and I can guarantee you that zerg has definitely the easiest time defending lategame harrass and also has the easiest time to harrass lategame due to their unit speed. And another big difference is that 6 spines actually mean that your expo is pretty safe against terran drops or DT drops (or will at least buy you enough time to get your main army there), 6 turrets or cannons however don't do anything against mass muta harrass and on top of that you have to consider that T and P armies are alot slower. So while the zerg can in most cases clean up the drop, there is nothing T or P can do to kill the mass mutas. zerg kills the turrets then goes for the base, takes minimal losses.... after X seconds he sees the T or P army coming.... flies away and attacks somewhere else. Of course I'm talking about lategame, I'm not saying mutas are OP midgame, they are hard to deal with but it's managable, Lategame however it's absolute bullshit, i think every T or P player will agree with that. it's not always that simple. Toss can always warp in units in his expansions, which combined with cannons can defend mutas. On the other hand if toss is pushing with main army and at the same time sending 8 Dts or zealots at two separate expansions then it becomes very very hard to deal with. And btw just keep one archon at each base with cannons and no mutas will ever attack. I call bullshit on that one. 1 archon doesn't even do anything against 30 mutas lategame, you can also magicbox the archon. same with thor. 2 thors per expo are dead supply and die instantly to 30 mutas. You need to consider that when you leave so much stuff behind PER base that your main army will be ridiculously small. You talk in such absolutes. If 30+ mutas were as good as you say they are Idra and other muta heavy zergs would never lose. If you deflect the initial harassment with good positioning there's nothing the muta's can do besides gain map control / stop drops. How often do you see zergs go mass muta lategame? almost never, they go broodlord or ultra 99% of the time. I beat blord ultra almost 100% of the time, but I always lose when the zerg goes lategame muta. You just can't defend 6 bases against muta harrass on maps like tal darim. So your complaining about mass muta in the late game...but then you say zerg's never go it and that you never lose to Ultra or broods...so your basicly saying you never lose to zerg? I dont see the problem. I don't get what your even trying to say...You keep talking about how 30 mutas can easily kill 6 missle turrets...well obviously loool how does that suggest anything is OP? 30 banshees can easily kill 6 spores. Muta's are only good if you play to their style. What in the world? You compare 30 banshees with 30 mutas? as if banshees are a universal unit that could be massed lategame. 30 mutas is a quite common scenario, having 30 banshees is simply impossible and not realistic at all. The problem is that whenever a zerg uses lategame mutas you as a terran cannot defend your bases anymore, as soons as you have 5+ bases you cannot defend all of them, there is no unit that let's you do that, same goes for protoss. Stop being silly, comparing 30 mutas to 30 banshee is retarded. NO race in the game has ONE unit that defends every base....wtf are you talking about. Im saying your defense has to be to scale. Watch pro terrans they defend groups of 20-30 mutas with a small handful of units + turrets. Mutas being OP against terran is the most retarded thing I've heard.
Pro terrans hardly ever go into super lategame vs. Zerg and if they do the Zerg builds Blord/Ultra instead of Mutas. Have you ever played against super lategame muta harrass where you are spread out on 6 base as terran? You can't have your defenses to scale because you don't even have enough units.
And don't put words into my mouth, I never said Mutas are OP in general. I said they are OP lategame because both, Protoss and Terran lack a fast enough unit that can defend multiple bases against mass muta harrass.
I'm talking specifically about lategame TvZ, what part of that don't you understand?
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On November 04 2011 18:08 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 18:04 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:59 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:56 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:46 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:43 BandonBanshee wrote:
Hearing terrans complain about mutas hurts my head. I do agree though that toss needs AA splash, tempest seems pretty lame though. And why should terrans not complaing about mutas? marines are better against mutas than stalkers are, but they are still too slow to defend all expos lategame and thors = archons. Vikings are alot worse vs. Mutas than Phoenixes are. Midgame it's not a problem to deal with mutas on 3 base, but once you get to 5+ it is actually impossible. On November 04 2011 17:46 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:42 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:30 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 17:20 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:13 Alpina wrote:
[quote]
same for all races. Do you think when zerg is on 5 bases it's easy to deal with terran drops or dt drops from toss? I can say that it's very hard, unless you make like 7 spines at each base, so your point does not prove much. No it's absolutely not the same for all races. Zerg has the easiest time to defend lategame because of how quick their units are. Mutas can literally fly across Tal Darim in 10 seconds, how long does it take a Terran army with marines? 30-40 seconds? A Protoss army? 40-50 seconds? How long does it take speedlings to run across tal darim? maybe 20 seconds? zerg units are sooo much faster than T or P units which gives them an insane advantage in defending lategame harrass of P or T. Protoss has a small advantage over the terran because they can warp in, but in most cases if you defend against mutas you are so outnumbered with your warp ins that you need to wait for the main army and their main army generally is the slowest. I play random on my second acc and main terran and I can guarantee you that zerg has definitely the easiest time defending lategame harrass and also has the easiest time to harrass lategame due to their unit speed. And another big difference is that 6 spines actually mean that your expo is pretty safe against terran drops or DT drops (or will at least buy you enough time to get your main army there), 6 turrets or cannons however don't do anything against mass muta harrass and on top of that you have to consider that T and P armies are alot slower. So while the zerg can in most cases clean up the drop, there is nothing T or P can do to kill the mass mutas. zerg kills the turrets then goes for the base, takes minimal losses.... after X seconds he sees the T or P army coming.... flies away and attacks somewhere else. Of course I'm talking about lategame, I'm not saying mutas are OP midgame, they are hard to deal with but it's managable, Lategame however it's absolute bullshit, i think every T or P player will agree with that. it's not always that simple. Toss can always warp in units in his expansions, which combined with cannons can defend mutas. On the other hand if toss is pushing with main army and at the same time sending 8 Dts or zealots at two separate expansions then it becomes very very hard to deal with. And btw just keep one archon at each base with cannons and no mutas will ever attack. I call bullshit on that one. 1 archon doesn't even do anything against 30 mutas lategame, you can also magicbox the archon. same with thor. 2 thors per expo are dead supply and die instantly to 30 mutas. You need to consider that when you leave so much stuff behind PER base that your main army will be ridiculously small. You talk in such absolutes. If 30+ mutas were as good as you say they are Idra and other muta heavy zergs would never lose. If you deflect the initial harassment with good positioning there's nothing the muta's can do besides gain map control / stop drops. How often do you see zergs go mass muta lategame? almost never, they go broodlord or ultra 99% of the time. I beat blord ultra almost 100% of the time, but I always lose when the zerg goes lategame muta. You just can't defend 6 bases against muta harrass on maps like tal darim. So your complaining about mass muta in the late game...but then you say zerg's never go it and that you never lose to Ultra or broods...so your basicly saying you never lose to zerg? I dont see the problem. I don't get what your even trying to say...You keep talking about how 30 mutas can easily kill 6 missle turrets...well obviously loool how does that suggest anything is OP? 30 banshees can easily kill 6 spores. Muta's are only good if you play to their style. What in the world? You compare 30 banshees with 30 mutas? as if banshees are a universal unit that could be massed lategame. 30 mutas is a quite common scenario, having 30 banshees is simply impossible and not realistic at all. The problem is that whenever a zerg uses lategame mutas you as a terran cannot defend your bases anymore, as soons as you have 5+ bases you cannot defend all of them, there is no unit that let's you do that, same goes for protoss. Stop being silly, comparing 30 mutas to 30 banshee is retarded. NO race in the game has ONE unit that defends every base....wtf are you talking about. Im saying your defense has to be to scale. Watch pro terrans they defend groups of 20-30 mutas with a small handful of units + turrets. Mutas being OP against terran is the most retarded thing I've heard. Pro terrans hardly ever go into super lategame vs. Zerg and if they do the Zerg builds Blord/Ultra instead of Mutas. Have you ever played against super lategame muta harrass where you are spread out on 6 base as terran? You can't have your defenses to scale because you don't even have enough units. And don't put words into my mouth, I never said Mutas are OP in general. I said they are OP lategame because both, Protoss and Terran lack a fast enough unit that can defend multiple bases against mass muta harrass. I'm talking specifically about lategame TvZ, what part of that don't you understand?
Since when are turrets and sensor towers units? Terran is the best equipped to deal with mutas in the game.
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Pro terrans hardly ever go into super lategame vs. Zerg and if they do the Zerg builds Blord/Ultra instead of Mutas.
BLords/Ultras are extremely expensive, you will see the transition coming, and make the counter. Ghosts, vikings and marines would own that.
Have you ever played against super lategame muta harrass where you are spread out on 6 base as terran? You can't have your defenses to scale because you don't even have enough units.
You're on 6 bases... Send MULEs, get minerals, build turrets, fly your buildings so they're protected by your turrets.
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On November 04 2011 18:13 BandonBanshee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 18:08 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 18:04 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:59 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:56 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:46 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:43 BandonBanshee wrote:
Hearing terrans complain about mutas hurts my head. I do agree though that toss needs AA splash, tempest seems pretty lame though. And why should terrans not complaing about mutas? marines are better against mutas than stalkers are, but they are still too slow to defend all expos lategame and thors = archons. Vikings are alot worse vs. Mutas than Phoenixes are. Midgame it's not a problem to deal with mutas on 3 base, but once you get to 5+ it is actually impossible. On November 04 2011 17:46 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:42 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:30 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 17:20 doko100 wrote:
[quote]
No it's absolutely not the same for all races. Zerg has the easiest time to defend lategame because of how quick their units are. Mutas can literally fly across Tal Darim in 10 seconds, how long does it take a Terran army with marines? 30-40 seconds? A Protoss army? 40-50 seconds? How long does it take speedlings to run across tal darim? maybe 20 seconds? zerg units are sooo much faster than T or P units which gives them an insane advantage in defending lategame harrass of P or T. Protoss has a small advantage over the terran because they can warp in, but in most cases if you defend against mutas you are so outnumbered with your warp ins that you need to wait for the main army and their main army generally is the slowest.
I play random on my second acc and main terran and I can guarantee you that zerg has definitely the easiest time defending lategame harrass and also has the easiest time to harrass lategame due to their unit speed.
And another big difference is that 6 spines actually mean that your expo is pretty safe against terran drops or DT drops (or will at least buy you enough time to get your main army there), 6 turrets or cannons however don't do anything against mass muta harrass and on top of that you have to consider that T and P armies are alot slower. So while the zerg can in most cases clean up the drop, there is nothing T or P can do to kill the mass mutas. zerg kills the turrets then goes for the base, takes minimal losses.... after X seconds he sees the T or P army coming.... flies away and attacks somewhere else.
Of course I'm talking about lategame, I'm not saying mutas are OP midgame, they are hard to deal with but it's managable, Lategame however it's absolute bullshit, i think every T or P player will agree with that. it's not always that simple. Toss can always warp in units in his expansions, which combined with cannons can defend mutas. On the other hand if toss is pushing with main army and at the same time sending 8 Dts or zealots at two separate expansions then it becomes very very hard to deal with. And btw just keep one archon at each base with cannons and no mutas will ever attack. I call bullshit on that one. 1 archon doesn't even do anything against 30 mutas lategame, you can also magicbox the archon. same with thor. 2 thors per expo are dead supply and die instantly to 30 mutas. You need to consider that when you leave so much stuff behind PER base that your main army will be ridiculously small. You talk in such absolutes. If 30+ mutas were as good as you say they are Idra and other muta heavy zergs would never lose. If you deflect the initial harassment with good positioning there's nothing the muta's can do besides gain map control / stop drops. How often do you see zergs go mass muta lategame? almost never, they go broodlord or ultra 99% of the time. I beat blord ultra almost 100% of the time, but I always lose when the zerg goes lategame muta. You just can't defend 6 bases against muta harrass on maps like tal darim. So your complaining about mass muta in the late game...but then you say zerg's never go it and that you never lose to Ultra or broods...so your basicly saying you never lose to zerg? I dont see the problem. I don't get what your even trying to say...You keep talking about how 30 mutas can easily kill 6 missle turrets...well obviously loool how does that suggest anything is OP? 30 banshees can easily kill 6 spores. Muta's are only good if you play to their style. What in the world? You compare 30 banshees with 30 mutas? as if banshees are a universal unit that could be massed lategame. 30 mutas is a quite common scenario, having 30 banshees is simply impossible and not realistic at all. The problem is that whenever a zerg uses lategame mutas you as a terran cannot defend your bases anymore, as soons as you have 5+ bases you cannot defend all of them, there is no unit that let's you do that, same goes for protoss. Stop being silly, comparing 30 mutas to 30 banshee is retarded. NO race in the game has ONE unit that defends every base....wtf are you talking about. Im saying your defense has to be to scale. Watch pro terrans they defend groups of 20-30 mutas with a small handful of units + turrets. Mutas being OP against terran is the most retarded thing I've heard. Pro terrans hardly ever go into super lategame vs. Zerg and if they do the Zerg builds Blord/Ultra instead of Mutas. Have you ever played against super lategame muta harrass where you are spread out on 6 base as terran? You can't have your defenses to scale because you don't even have enough units. And don't put words into my mouth, I never said Mutas are OP in general. I said they are OP lategame because both, Protoss and Terran lack a fast enough unit that can defend multiple bases against mass muta harrass. I'm talking specifically about lategame TvZ, what part of that don't you understand? Since when are turrets and sensor towers units? Terran is the best equipped to deal with mutas in the game.
Sensor Towers? They can't kill Mutas and Turrets, like i said, are not effective anymore in a lategame scenario where zerg has 30+ Mutas. I'm a heavy sensor tower user and yes, they give you a warning to see when Mutas are coming, but it doesn't change the fact that your units till aren't fast enough the deflect the Muta attack.On November 04 2011 18:17 madhyene wrote:Show nested quote +Pro terrans hardly ever go into super lategame vs. Zerg and if they do the Zerg builds Blord/Ultra instead of Mutas.
BLords/Ultras are extremely expensive, you will see the transition coming, and make the counter. Ghosts, vikings and marines would own that.
What are you talking about
Have you ever played against super lategame muta harrass where you are spread out on 6 base as terran? You can't have your defenses to scale because you don't even have enough units.
You're on 6 bases... Send MULEs, get minerals, build turrets, fly your buildings so they're protected by your turrets.[/QUOTE]
What? How does this change anything? what do you mules have to do with muta harrassment, or the ability to fly buildings?
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On November 04 2011 17:42 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 17:30 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 17:20 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:13 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 16:58 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 16:17 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 15:22 Tatari wrote:On November 04 2011 10:05 hitpoint wrote:
If your opponent can make enough mutas to win a straight up engagement then you deserve to lose x2. Mutas are not OP. Are you kidding me? The fact that lings are practically disposable and cost no gas, AND can be used to harass/pressure the Protoss to stay on 2 bases, AND the Protoss has to go through a tech path to safely scout to finally see a Spire only to realize he fucked up on his tech choice and sees 10 mutas incoming, doesn't make the unit OP? Mutas in large numbers are ridiculous enough by themselves, but coupled with lings and double ups from their ridiculously low cost can be downright bs. everything in large numbers is riduculous =P and at the same tim you can counter everything. Btw where is the problem to get halliucination and scout zerg? The problem with mutas is that even if you know they are coming, once you are spread out on 5+ bases in the lategame it's absolutely impossible to defend all of them, this goes for both, terran and protoss. Mutas are simply too mobile and the counter units are either not really massable (phoenix) or too slow (marine/blink stalker). Mutas are faster than everything, look at thors and archons, if the zerg doesn't engage the thors or archons they are just useless, because you will never get them even close enough to get some shots off at the mutas. It's their mobility what makes them so op in the lategame. You can deal with mutas, midgame, but lategame once your army is really spread out it's so hard to defend bases. I always try to avoid TvZ lategame on some maps (taldarim) because im so scared of mass muta play. They just go in and take out your 5 turrets in 2 seconds and by the time your army gets there the base is already dead and if you leave 2 thors there they won't do anything either thx to magicbox. Another problem with Mutas is that they force the T and P to spend ALOT of ressources in static defenses such as turrets or cannons, I had lategame TvZ's where I used 4k mins on just turrets to defend against Mutas, yes I build 40 turrets in one game. Those are minerals that are spent on things that are essentially useless in a fight. So whilst the T and P have to spend so much money on cannons/turrets (and trust me in a lategame T/PvsZ this is entirely possible) the Zerg can spend all his money on army, or even spines which are more useful in fights than cannons or turrets are. On maps like Tal'Darim for example if you want to play super lategame on 6-7 base you need to make mass planetaries/mass turrets, etc.. just to be able to defend expansions that are really far away. For Protoss it's even worse because they don't have plantaries so they have to make mass cannons. I've seen games where a protoss player built 10 cannons around his 5th base just to be safe against mutas and ling attacks. This is a general problem with zerg, their units are so quick, on maps like tal darim it's impossible to spread out your units enough to defend all expansions. Lategame vs. Z is just terrible in general if the Zerg knows how to abuse the mobility of zerg. it's so easy for zerg to mulit-harrass P and T lategame. On tal darim you can attack the fifht base on the left with lings and at the same time attack the right side with mass muta. It takes a few clicks to pull that off and the P or T needs 20x the apm the zerg player needs to stop that harrass. sadly most zerg players don't abuse this ability lategame, they rather tech to blords and just try to overwhelm the P or T but I personally am alot more scare dof lategame mass muta/ling/baneling than lategame broodlords. I still think that zergs shouldn't get broodlords at all lategame, it completely nullifies their biggest advantage which is mobility. I win so many games where a Zerg goes mass broodlord and I just go mass ghost, but whenever a zerg goes muta/ling and harrasses mutliple bases lategame I feel like I can't win. it's actually impossible to stop this kind of harrassment, of course tal darim is a bad example because it's lategame zerg heaven especially with how the bases are layed out. but I really hope this style of muta harrass all game doesn't catch on, my win rate against that is like 10%, against Blords or ultra lategame I have close to 100% win rate in TvZ. But most zergs will realize how OP mutas are lategame once they stop using blords and ultras and just stick with mutas, you can deny every 5th or 6th base on really big maps and theres nothing t or p can do. same for all races. Do you think when zerg is on 5 bases it's easy to deal with terran drops or dt drops from toss? I can say that it's very hard, unless you make like 7 spines at each base, so your point does not prove much. No it's absolutely not the same for all races. Zerg has the easiest time to defend lategame because of how quick their units are. Mutas can literally fly across Tal Darim in 10 seconds, how long does it take a Terran army with marines? 30-40 seconds? A Protoss army? 40-50 seconds? How long does it take speedlings to run across tal darim? maybe 20 seconds? zerg units are sooo much faster than T or P units which gives them an insane advantage in defending lategame harrass of P or T. Protoss has a small advantage over the terran because they can warp in, but in most cases if you defend against mutas you are so outnumbered with your warp ins that you need to wait for the main army and their main army generally is the slowest. I play random on my second acc and main terran and I can guarantee you that zerg has definitely the easiest time defending lategame harrass and also has the easiest time to harrass lategame due to their unit speed. And another big difference is that 6 spines actually mean that your expo is pretty safe against terran drops or DT drops (or will at least buy you enough time to get your main army there), 6 turrets or cannons however don't do anything against mass muta harrass and on top of that you have to consider that T and P armies are alot slower. So while the zerg can in most cases clean up the drop, there is nothing T or P can do to kill the mass mutas. zerg kills the turrets then goes for the base, takes minimal losses.... after X seconds he sees the T or P army coming.... flies away and attacks somewhere else. Of course I'm talking about lategame, I'm not saying mutas are OP midgame, they are hard to deal with but it's managable, Lategame however it's absolute bullshit, i think every T or P player will agree with that. it's not always that simple. Toss can always warp in units in his expansions, which combined with cannons can defend mutas. On the other hand if toss is pushing with main army and at the same time sending 8 Dts or zealots at two separate expansions then it becomes very very hard to deal with. And btw just keep one archon at each base with cannons and no mutas will ever attack. I call bullshit on that one. 1 archon doesn't even do anything against 30 mutas lategame, you can also magicbox the archon. same with thor. 2 thors per expo are dead supply and die instantly to 30 mutas. You need to consider that when you leave so much stuff behind PER base that your main army will be ridiculously small.
Of course 1 archon or 1 thor won't do much on their own but their role is not to kill all mutas. Their role is to force magic boxing. And you know what happens when 30 mutas magic box 1 thor and 4 turrets or 1 archon and 4 cannon? Happens ton of dead mutas, and zerg usually won't attack into that. Where have you seen zerg fly in terran base if there if thor with turrets? You never see this because it's not worth it, and if you see mutas magic box thors it's because there are no turrets or marines around, and that's a mistake of terran player, same with archon.
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This tread really makes me sad.
Turrets fucking rape mutas.. Yeah, you probably need more than 4 per expansionm why don't you just build more? It is pretty common in SC/BW?
Marines that are not totally outnumbered RAPE Mutas... Yeah, you probably need more than 20 Marines to kill 30 Mutas...
Thors lose to Massmutas... This is just not true, Thors are cost effective even against Magicboxed Mutas... + When not playing Metal, why woudl you ever fight with "Thor-Only?"... Thor/Marine/(Turret) tears Mutas a new one like nothing else.
+ Ghost (Snipe).
+ Ravens (Point defense Drone, HSM... Even the Turrets "do" something against lower numbers of Mutas).
There are PLENTY of solutions for Terran to deal with Mutas.. But the Terran answer?
"herp, derp that would require to spread my army, but i like my deathball!"... There he runs off and tries to initate a baserace...
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On November 04 2011 18:18 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 17:42 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:30 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 17:20 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:13 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 16:58 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 16:17 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 15:22 Tatari wrote:On November 04 2011 10:05 hitpoint wrote:
If your opponent can make enough mutas to win a straight up engagement then you deserve to lose x2. Mutas are not OP. Are you kidding me? The fact that lings are practically disposable and cost no gas, AND can be used to harass/pressure the Protoss to stay on 2 bases, AND the Protoss has to go through a tech path to safely scout to finally see a Spire only to realize he fucked up on his tech choice and sees 10 mutas incoming, doesn't make the unit OP? Mutas in large numbers are ridiculous enough by themselves, but coupled with lings and double ups from their ridiculously low cost can be downright bs. everything in large numbers is riduculous =P and at the same tim you can counter everything. Btw where is the problem to get halliucination and scout zerg? The problem with mutas is that even if you know they are coming, once you are spread out on 5+ bases in the lategame it's absolutely impossible to defend all of them, this goes for both, terran and protoss. Mutas are simply too mobile and the counter units are either not really massable (phoenix) or too slow (marine/blink stalker). Mutas are faster than everything, look at thors and archons, if the zerg doesn't engage the thors or archons they are just useless, because you will never get them even close enough to get some shots off at the mutas. It's their mobility what makes them so op in the lategame. You can deal with mutas, midgame, but lategame once your army is really spread out it's so hard to defend bases. I always try to avoid TvZ lategame on some maps (taldarim) because im so scared of mass muta play. They just go in and take out your 5 turrets in 2 seconds and by the time your army gets there the base is already dead and if you leave 2 thors there they won't do anything either thx to magicbox. Another problem with Mutas is that they force the T and P to spend ALOT of ressources in static defenses such as turrets or cannons, I had lategame TvZ's where I used 4k mins on just turrets to defend against Mutas, yes I build 40 turrets in one game. Those are minerals that are spent on things that are essentially useless in a fight. So whilst the T and P have to spend so much money on cannons/turrets (and trust me in a lategame T/PvsZ this is entirely possible) the Zerg can spend all his money on army, or even spines which are more useful in fights than cannons or turrets are. On maps like Tal'Darim for example if you want to play super lategame on 6-7 base you need to make mass planetaries/mass turrets, etc.. just to be able to defend expansions that are really far away. For Protoss it's even worse because they don't have plantaries so they have to make mass cannons. I've seen games where a protoss player built 10 cannons around his 5th base just to be safe against mutas and ling attacks. This is a general problem with zerg, their units are so quick, on maps like tal darim it's impossible to spread out your units enough to defend all expansions. Lategame vs. Z is just terrible in general if the Zerg knows how to abuse the mobility of zerg. it's so easy for zerg to mulit-harrass P and T lategame. On tal darim you can attack the fifht base on the left with lings and at the same time attack the right side with mass muta. It takes a few clicks to pull that off and the P or T needs 20x the apm the zerg player needs to stop that harrass. sadly most zerg players don't abuse this ability lategame, they rather tech to blords and just try to overwhelm the P or T but I personally am alot more scare dof lategame mass muta/ling/baneling than lategame broodlords. I still think that zergs shouldn't get broodlords at all lategame, it completely nullifies their biggest advantage which is mobility. I win so many games where a Zerg goes mass broodlord and I just go mass ghost, but whenever a zerg goes muta/ling and harrasses mutliple bases lategame I feel like I can't win. it's actually impossible to stop this kind of harrassment, of course tal darim is a bad example because it's lategame zerg heaven especially with how the bases are layed out. but I really hope this style of muta harrass all game doesn't catch on, my win rate against that is like 10%, against Blords or ultra lategame I have close to 100% win rate in TvZ. But most zergs will realize how OP mutas are lategame once they stop using blords and ultras and just stick with mutas, you can deny every 5th or 6th base on really big maps and theres nothing t or p can do. same for all races. Do you think when zerg is on 5 bases it's easy to deal with terran drops or dt drops from toss? I can say that it's very hard, unless you make like 7 spines at each base, so your point does not prove much. No it's absolutely not the same for all races. Zerg has the easiest time to defend lategame because of how quick their units are. Mutas can literally fly across Tal Darim in 10 seconds, how long does it take a Terran army with marines? 30-40 seconds? A Protoss army? 40-50 seconds? How long does it take speedlings to run across tal darim? maybe 20 seconds? zerg units are sooo much faster than T or P units which gives them an insane advantage in defending lategame harrass of P or T. Protoss has a small advantage over the terran because they can warp in, but in most cases if you defend against mutas you are so outnumbered with your warp ins that you need to wait for the main army and their main army generally is the slowest. I play random on my second acc and main terran and I can guarantee you that zerg has definitely the easiest time defending lategame harrass and also has the easiest time to harrass lategame due to their unit speed. And another big difference is that 6 spines actually mean that your expo is pretty safe against terran drops or DT drops (or will at least buy you enough time to get your main army there), 6 turrets or cannons however don't do anything against mass muta harrass and on top of that you have to consider that T and P armies are alot slower. So while the zerg can in most cases clean up the drop, there is nothing T or P can do to kill the mass mutas. zerg kills the turrets then goes for the base, takes minimal losses.... after X seconds he sees the T or P army coming.... flies away and attacks somewhere else. Of course I'm talking about lategame, I'm not saying mutas are OP midgame, they are hard to deal with but it's managable, Lategame however it's absolute bullshit, i think every T or P player will agree with that. it's not always that simple. Toss can always warp in units in his expansions, which combined with cannons can defend mutas. On the other hand if toss is pushing with main army and at the same time sending 8 Dts or zealots at two separate expansions then it becomes very very hard to deal with. And btw just keep one archon at each base with cannons and no mutas will ever attack. I call bullshit on that one. 1 archon doesn't even do anything against 30 mutas lategame, you can also magicbox the archon. same with thor. 2 thors per expo are dead supply and die instantly to 30 mutas. You need to consider that when you leave so much stuff behind PER base that your main army will be ridiculously small. Of course 1 archon or 1 thor won't do much on their own but their role is not to kill all mutas. Their role is to force magic boxing. And you know what happens when 30 mutas magic box 1 thor and 4 turrets or 1 archon and 4 cannon? Happens ton of dead mutas, and zerg usually won't attack into that. Where have you seen zerg fly in terran base if there if thor with turrets? You never see this because it's not worth it, and if you see mutas magic box thors it's because there are no turrets or marines around, and that's a mistake of terran player, same with archon.
1 Thor and 4 turrets vs. 30 Mutas = 2 or 3 mutas die.
we are talking about lategame tvz. Yes the thor will kill an incredible amount of 3 mutas together with turrets, but once the turrets and the thor is dead there is nothing that stops the zerg from killing the base, in a lategame TvZ your army isn't quick enough to get there to help or deflect the harrass. I don't think you people have a grasp on how slow a terran army is compared to a muta flock, especially lategame when you are spread out on 6 or 7 bases,
On November 04 2011 18:20 Velr wrote:
This tread really makes me sad.
Turrets fucking rape mutas.. Yeah, you probably need more than 4 per expansionm why don't you just build more? It is pretty common in SC/BW?
Marines that are not totally outnumbered RAPE Mutas... Yeah, you probably need more than 20 Marines to kill 30 Mutas...
Thors lose to Massmutas... This is just not true, Thors are cost effective even against Magicboxed Mutas... + When not playing Metal, why woudl you ever fight with "Thor-Only?"... Thor/Marine/(Turret) tears Mutas a new one like nothing else.
+ Ghost (Snipe).
+ Ravens (Point defense Drone, HSM... Even the Turrets "do" something against lower numbers of Mutas).
There are PLENTY of solutions for Terran to deal with Mutas.. But the Terran answer?
"herp, derp that would require to spread my army, but i like my deathball!"... There he runs off and tries to initate a baserace...
Ok I give up, it's just evident to me that most people on this forum don't want to understand. the problem isn't firepower (for the 100000000 time) the problem is that none of the units are quick enough to deflect muta harrass. Zerg attacks base A, then goes to base B and you can never catch up. fuck "leave some units behind", you can't have 2 thors 10 turrets and 10 marines per base..... the zerg is just gonna lol and attack your front and kill everything. How do you people imagine this do you think terran has a supply cap of 300? 20 supply per base+ 150 supply in the middle of the map on 6 base + 30 scvs lategame.... I dont know
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On November 04 2011 18:20 Velr wrote:
This tread really makes me sad.
Turrets fucking rape mutas.. Yeah, you probably need more than 4 per expansionm why don't you just build more? It is pretty common in SC/BW?
Marines that are not totally outnumbered RAPE Mutas... Yeah, you probably need more than 20 Marines to kill 30 Mutas...
Thors lose to Massmutas... This is just not true, Thors are cost effective even against Magicboxed Mutas... Thor/Marine/(Turret) tears Mutas a new one like nothing else.
+ Ghost (Snipe).
+ Ravens (Point defense Drone, HSM... Even the Turrets "do" something against lower numbers of Mutas).
There are PLENTY of solutions for Terran to deal with Mutas.. But the Terran answer?
"herp, derp that would require to spread my army, but i like my deathball!".
I couldn't have summed it up better myself.
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1 Thor + 4 Turrets IS NOTHING.
Do you see Z complain that 1 Spinecrawler loses to 1 Medivac filled with random stuff?
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On November 04 2011 18:21 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 18:18 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 17:42 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:30 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 17:20 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:13 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 16:58 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 16:17 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 15:22 Tatari wrote:On November 04 2011 10:05 hitpoint wrote:
If your opponent can make enough mutas to win a straight up engagement then you deserve to lose x2. Mutas are not OP. Are you kidding me? The fact that lings are practically disposable and cost no gas, AND can be used to harass/pressure the Protoss to stay on 2 bases, AND the Protoss has to go through a tech path to safely scout to finally see a Spire only to realize he fucked up on his tech choice and sees 10 mutas incoming, doesn't make the unit OP? Mutas in large numbers are ridiculous enough by themselves, but coupled with lings and double ups from their ridiculously low cost can be downright bs. everything in large numbers is riduculous =P and at the same tim you can counter everything. Btw where is the problem to get halliucination and scout zerg? The problem with mutas is that even if you know they are coming, once you are spread out on 5+ bases in the lategame it's absolutely impossible to defend all of them, this goes for both, terran and protoss. Mutas are simply too mobile and the counter units are either not really massable (phoenix) or too slow (marine/blink stalker). Mutas are faster than everything, look at thors and archons, if the zerg doesn't engage the thors or archons they are just useless, because you will never get them even close enough to get some shots off at the mutas. It's their mobility what makes them so op in the lategame. You can deal with mutas, midgame, but lategame once your army is really spread out it's so hard to defend bases. I always try to avoid TvZ lategame on some maps (taldarim) because im so scared of mass muta play. They just go in and take out your 5 turrets in 2 seconds and by the time your army gets there the base is already dead and if you leave 2 thors there they won't do anything either thx to magicbox. Another problem with Mutas is that they force the T and P to spend ALOT of ressources in static defenses such as turrets or cannons, I had lategame TvZ's where I used 4k mins on just turrets to defend against Mutas, yes I build 40 turrets in one game. Those are minerals that are spent on things that are essentially useless in a fight. So whilst the T and P have to spend so much money on cannons/turrets (and trust me in a lategame T/PvsZ this is entirely possible) the Zerg can spend all his money on army, or even spines which are more useful in fights than cannons or turrets are. On maps like Tal'Darim for example if you want to play super lategame on 6-7 base you need to make mass planetaries/mass turrets, etc.. just to be able to defend expansions that are really far away. For Protoss it's even worse because they don't have plantaries so they have to make mass cannons. I've seen games where a protoss player built 10 cannons around his 5th base just to be safe against mutas and ling attacks. This is a general problem with zerg, their units are so quick, on maps like tal darim it's impossible to spread out your units enough to defend all expansions. Lategame vs. Z is just terrible in general if the Zerg knows how to abuse the mobility of zerg. it's so easy for zerg to mulit-harrass P and T lategame. On tal darim you can attack the fifht base on the left with lings and at the same time attack the right side with mass muta. It takes a few clicks to pull that off and the P or T needs 20x the apm the zerg player needs to stop that harrass. sadly most zerg players don't abuse this ability lategame, they rather tech to blords and just try to overwhelm the P or T but I personally am alot more scare dof lategame mass muta/ling/baneling than lategame broodlords. I still think that zergs shouldn't get broodlords at all lategame, it completely nullifies their biggest advantage which is mobility. I win so many games where a Zerg goes mass broodlord and I just go mass ghost, but whenever a zerg goes muta/ling and harrasses mutliple bases lategame I feel like I can't win. it's actually impossible to stop this kind of harrassment, of course tal darim is a bad example because it's lategame zerg heaven especially with how the bases are layed out. but I really hope this style of muta harrass all game doesn't catch on, my win rate against that is like 10%, against Blords or ultra lategame I have close to 100% win rate in TvZ. But most zergs will realize how OP mutas are lategame once they stop using blords and ultras and just stick with mutas, you can deny every 5th or 6th base on really big maps and theres nothing t or p can do. same for all races. Do you think when zerg is on 5 bases it's easy to deal with terran drops or dt drops from toss? I can say that it's very hard, unless you make like 7 spines at each base, so your point does not prove much. No it's absolutely not the same for all races. Zerg has the easiest time to defend lategame because of how quick their units are. Mutas can literally fly across Tal Darim in 10 seconds, how long does it take a Terran army with marines? 30-40 seconds? A Protoss army? 40-50 seconds? How long does it take speedlings to run across tal darim? maybe 20 seconds? zerg units are sooo much faster than T or P units which gives them an insane advantage in defending lategame harrass of P or T. Protoss has a small advantage over the terran because they can warp in, but in most cases if you defend against mutas you are so outnumbered with your warp ins that you need to wait for the main army and their main army generally is the slowest. I play random on my second acc and main terran and I can guarantee you that zerg has definitely the easiest time defending lategame harrass and also has the easiest time to harrass lategame due to their unit speed. And another big difference is that 6 spines actually mean that your expo is pretty safe against terran drops or DT drops (or will at least buy you enough time to get your main army there), 6 turrets or cannons however don't do anything against mass muta harrass and on top of that you have to consider that T and P armies are alot slower. So while the zerg can in most cases clean up the drop, there is nothing T or P can do to kill the mass mutas. zerg kills the turrets then goes for the base, takes minimal losses.... after X seconds he sees the T or P army coming.... flies away and attacks somewhere else. Of course I'm talking about lategame, I'm not saying mutas are OP midgame, they are hard to deal with but it's managable, Lategame however it's absolute bullshit, i think every T or P player will agree with that. it's not always that simple. Toss can always warp in units in his expansions, which combined with cannons can defend mutas. On the other hand if toss is pushing with main army and at the same time sending 8 Dts or zealots at two separate expansions then it becomes very very hard to deal with. And btw just keep one archon at each base with cannons and no mutas will ever attack. I call bullshit on that one. 1 archon doesn't even do anything against 30 mutas lategame, you can also magicbox the archon. same with thor. 2 thors per expo are dead supply and die instantly to 30 mutas. You need to consider that when you leave so much stuff behind PER base that your main army will be ridiculously small. Of course 1 archon or 1 thor won't do much on their own but their role is not to kill all mutas. Their role is to force magic boxing. And you know what happens when 30 mutas magic box 1 thor and 4 turrets or 1 archon and 4 cannon? Happens ton of dead mutas, and zerg usually won't attack into that. Where have you seen zerg fly in terran base if there if thor with turrets? You never see this because it's not worth it, and if you see mutas magic box thors it's because there are no turrets or marines around, and that's a mistake of terran player, same with archon. 1 Thor and 4 turrets vs. 30 Mutas = 2 or 3 mutas die. we are talking about lategame tvz. Yes the thor will kill an incredible amount of 3 mutas together with turrets, but once the turrets and the thor is dead there is nothing that stops the zerg from killing the base, in a lategame TvZ your army isn't quick enough to get there to help or deflect the harrass. I don't think you people have a grasp on how slow a terran army is compared to a muta flock, especially lategame when you are spread out on 6 or 7 bases,
I dont think you will ever convince ANYONE that terran can't deal with mutas loooooooool.
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6-7 Bases... How much mineral patches are there? ~7 per Base?
7 x 1500 x 6 = 63'000... One would think you could buy more than "4" Turrets from that kind of money...
But anyway, care to share your BO/Gameplan? I bet most Terrans would be highly interested to learn how to regulary be on 6-7 running bases in TvZ lategame  .
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On November 04 2011 18:29 Velr wrote:6-7 Bases... How much mineral patches are there? ~7 per Base? 7 x 1500 x 6 = 63'000... One would think you could buy more than "4" Turrets from that kind of money... But anyway, care to share your BO/Gameplan? I bet most Terrans would be highly interested to learn how to regulary be on 6-7 running bases in TvZ lategame .
I'm not talking about 7 running bases obviously lol. That's not even possible worker-wise. the amount of running bases is irrelevant, the point is that whenever you take another base your army gets spread out more and more and it's easier to harrass with mutas.
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On November 04 2011 18:08 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 18:04 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:59 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:56 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:46 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:43 BandonBanshee wrote:
Hearing terrans complain about mutas hurts my head. I do agree though that toss needs AA splash, tempest seems pretty lame though. And why should terrans not complaing about mutas? marines are better against mutas than stalkers are, but they are still too slow to defend all expos lategame and thors = archons. Vikings are alot worse vs. Mutas than Phoenixes are. Midgame it's not a problem to deal with mutas on 3 base, but once you get to 5+ it is actually impossible. On November 04 2011 17:46 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:42 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:30 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 17:20 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:13 Alpina wrote:
[quote]
same for all races. Do you think when zerg is on 5 bases it's easy to deal with terran drops or dt drops from toss? I can say that it's very hard, unless you make like 7 spines at each base, so your point does not prove much. No it's absolutely not the same for all races. Zerg has the easiest time to defend lategame because of how quick their units are. Mutas can literally fly across Tal Darim in 10 seconds, how long does it take a Terran army with marines? 30-40 seconds? A Protoss army? 40-50 seconds? How long does it take speedlings to run across tal darim? maybe 20 seconds? zerg units are sooo much faster than T or P units which gives them an insane advantage in defending lategame harrass of P or T. Protoss has a small advantage over the terran because they can warp in, but in most cases if you defend against mutas you are so outnumbered with your warp ins that you need to wait for the main army and their main army generally is the slowest. I play random on my second acc and main terran and I can guarantee you that zerg has definitely the easiest time defending lategame harrass and also has the easiest time to harrass lategame due to their unit speed. And another big difference is that 6 spines actually mean that your expo is pretty safe against terran drops or DT drops (or will at least buy you enough time to get your main army there), 6 turrets or cannons however don't do anything against mass muta harrass and on top of that you have to consider that T and P armies are alot slower. So while the zerg can in most cases clean up the drop, there is nothing T or P can do to kill the mass mutas. zerg kills the turrets then goes for the base, takes minimal losses.... after X seconds he sees the T or P army coming.... flies away and attacks somewhere else. Of course I'm talking about lategame, I'm not saying mutas are OP midgame, they are hard to deal with but it's managable, Lategame however it's absolute bullshit, i think every T or P player will agree with that. it's not always that simple. Toss can always warp in units in his expansions, which combined with cannons can defend mutas. On the other hand if toss is pushing with main army and at the same time sending 8 Dts or zealots at two separate expansions then it becomes very very hard to deal with. And btw just keep one archon at each base with cannons and no mutas will ever attack. I call bullshit on that one. 1 archon doesn't even do anything against 30 mutas lategame, you can also magicbox the archon. same with thor. 2 thors per expo are dead supply and die instantly to 30 mutas. You need to consider that when you leave so much stuff behind PER base that your main army will be ridiculously small. You talk in such absolutes. If 30+ mutas were as good as you say they are Idra and other muta heavy zergs would never lose. If you deflect the initial harassment with good positioning there's nothing the muta's can do besides gain map control / stop drops. How often do you see zergs go mass muta lategame? almost never, they go broodlord or ultra 99% of the time. I beat blord ultra almost 100% of the time, but I always lose when the zerg goes lategame muta. You just can't defend 6 bases against muta harrass on maps like tal darim. So your complaining about mass muta in the late game...but then you say zerg's never go it and that you never lose to Ultra or broods...so your basicly saying you never lose to zerg? I dont see the problem. I don't get what your even trying to say...You keep talking about how 30 mutas can easily kill 6 missle turrets...well obviously loool how does that suggest anything is OP? 30 banshees can easily kill 6 spores. Muta's are only good if you play to their style. What in the world? You compare 30 banshees with 30 mutas? as if banshees are a universal unit that could be massed lategame. 30 mutas is a quite common scenario, having 30 banshees is simply impossible and not realistic at all. The problem is that whenever a zerg uses lategame mutas you as a terran cannot defend your bases anymore, as soons as you have 5+ bases you cannot defend all of them, there is no unit that let's you do that, same goes for protoss. Stop being silly, comparing 30 mutas to 30 banshee is retarded. NO race in the game has ONE unit that defends every base....wtf are you talking about. Im saying your defense has to be to scale. Watch pro terrans they defend groups of 20-30 mutas with a small handful of units + turrets. Mutas being OP against terran is the most retarded thing I've heard. Pro terrans hardly ever go into super lategame vs. Zerg and if they do the Zerg builds Blord/Ultra instead of Mutas. Have you ever played against super lategame muta harrass where you are spread out on 6 base as terran? You can't have your defenses to scale because you don't even have enough units. And don't put words into my mouth, I never said Mutas are OP in general. I said they are OP lategame because both, Protoss and Terran lack a fast enough unit that can defend multiple bases against mass muta harrass. I'm talking specifically about lategame TvZ, what part of that don't you understand?
Lategame mutas are terrible because you're sacrificing your t3 army for a luck based unit fragile unit composition. If a ghost heavy terran or maxed deathball toss sees your mutas he can just come and stomp your face in.
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the problem with mutas isnt their strength, its their mobility. for cost, theyre super weak. the problem is that whenever you move out, its really easy to counter with mutas. so you either have to either
1) pull back, or
2) base trade.
the problem with each is that
1) now you can never attack. you'll be countered every time.
2) the mutas can take out all your workers, then go fight your army.
imo, they should give the mutas MORE damage, and LESS hp. theyre intended to be a harass/raiding unit, and not a combat unit. treat them as such.
also, this way, units that way outrange them (like everything) can defend against them better, but when they find an opening, they do more damage.
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On November 04 2011 18:38 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 18:29 Velr wrote:6-7 Bases... How much mineral patches are there? ~7 per Base? 7 x 1500 x 6 = 63'000... One would think you could buy more than "4" Turrets from that kind of money... But anyway, care to share your BO/Gameplan? I bet most Terrans would be highly interested to learn how to regulary be on 6-7 running bases in TvZ lategame . I'm not talking about 7 running bases obviously lol. That's not even possible worker-wise. the amount of running bases is irrelevant, the point is that whenever you take another base your army gets spread out more and more and it's easier to harrass with mutas.
Just make a shredder bro.
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On November 04 2011 18:39 Odal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 18:08 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 18:04 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:59 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:56 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:46 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:43 BandonBanshee wrote:
Hearing terrans complain about mutas hurts my head. I do agree though that toss needs AA splash, tempest seems pretty lame though. And why should terrans not complaing about mutas? marines are better against mutas than stalkers are, but they are still too slow to defend all expos lategame and thors = archons. Vikings are alot worse vs. Mutas than Phoenixes are. Midgame it's not a problem to deal with mutas on 3 base, but once you get to 5+ it is actually impossible. On November 04 2011 17:46 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:42 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:30 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 17:20 doko100 wrote:
[quote]
No it's absolutely not the same for all races. Zerg has the easiest time to defend lategame because of how quick their units are. Mutas can literally fly across Tal Darim in 10 seconds, how long does it take a Terran army with marines? 30-40 seconds? A Protoss army? 40-50 seconds? How long does it take speedlings to run across tal darim? maybe 20 seconds? zerg units are sooo much faster than T or P units which gives them an insane advantage in defending lategame harrass of P or T. Protoss has a small advantage over the terran because they can warp in, but in most cases if you defend against mutas you are so outnumbered with your warp ins that you need to wait for the main army and their main army generally is the slowest.
I play random on my second acc and main terran and I can guarantee you that zerg has definitely the easiest time defending lategame harrass and also has the easiest time to harrass lategame due to their unit speed.
And another big difference is that 6 spines actually mean that your expo is pretty safe against terran drops or DT drops (or will at least buy you enough time to get your main army there), 6 turrets or cannons however don't do anything against mass muta harrass and on top of that you have to consider that T and P armies are alot slower. So while the zerg can in most cases clean up the drop, there is nothing T or P can do to kill the mass mutas. zerg kills the turrets then goes for the base, takes minimal losses.... after X seconds he sees the T or P army coming.... flies away and attacks somewhere else.
Of course I'm talking about lategame, I'm not saying mutas are OP midgame, they are hard to deal with but it's managable, Lategame however it's absolute bullshit, i think every T or P player will agree with that. it's not always that simple. Toss can always warp in units in his expansions, which combined with cannons can defend mutas. On the other hand if toss is pushing with main army and at the same time sending 8 Dts or zealots at two separate expansions then it becomes very very hard to deal with. And btw just keep one archon at each base with cannons and no mutas will ever attack. I call bullshit on that one. 1 archon doesn't even do anything against 30 mutas lategame, you can also magicbox the archon. same with thor. 2 thors per expo are dead supply and die instantly to 30 mutas. You need to consider that when you leave so much stuff behind PER base that your main army will be ridiculously small. You talk in such absolutes. If 30+ mutas were as good as you say they are Idra and other muta heavy zergs would never lose. If you deflect the initial harassment with good positioning there's nothing the muta's can do besides gain map control / stop drops. How often do you see zergs go mass muta lategame? almost never, they go broodlord or ultra 99% of the time. I beat blord ultra almost 100% of the time, but I always lose when the zerg goes lategame muta. You just can't defend 6 bases against muta harrass on maps like tal darim. So your complaining about mass muta in the late game...but then you say zerg's never go it and that you never lose to Ultra or broods...so your basicly saying you never lose to zerg? I dont see the problem. I don't get what your even trying to say...You keep talking about how 30 mutas can easily kill 6 missle turrets...well obviously loool how does that suggest anything is OP? 30 banshees can easily kill 6 spores. Muta's are only good if you play to their style. What in the world? You compare 30 banshees with 30 mutas? as if banshees are a universal unit that could be massed lategame. 30 mutas is a quite common scenario, having 30 banshees is simply impossible and not realistic at all. The problem is that whenever a zerg uses lategame mutas you as a terran cannot defend your bases anymore, as soons as you have 5+ bases you cannot defend all of them, there is no unit that let's you do that, same goes for protoss. Stop being silly, comparing 30 mutas to 30 banshee is retarded. NO race in the game has ONE unit that defends every base....wtf are you talking about. Im saying your defense has to be to scale. Watch pro terrans they defend groups of 20-30 mutas with a small handful of units + turrets. Mutas being OP against terran is the most retarded thing I've heard. Pro terrans hardly ever go into super lategame vs. Zerg and if they do the Zerg builds Blord/Ultra instead of Mutas. Have you ever played against super lategame muta harrass where you are spread out on 6 base as terran? You can't have your defenses to scale because you don't even have enough units. And don't put words into my mouth, I never said Mutas are OP in general. I said they are OP lategame because both, Protoss and Terran lack a fast enough unit that can defend multiple bases against mass muta harrass. I'm talking specifically about lategame TvZ, what part of that don't you understand? Lategame mutas are terrible because you're sacrificing your t3 army for a luck based unit fragile unit composition. If a ghost heavy terran or maxed deathball toss sees your mutas he can just come and stomp your face in.
that's nonsense. mutas are 10x more useful than tier3 zerg units, tier 3 zerg units just get sniped, they are essentially useless units (yeah I said it), mutas however can harrass all game long and put pressure on the terran. a ghost based terran can't move out, the point of lategame ghost style is to split the map and let the zerg attack. the big weakness of tank ghost lategame is mass roach/baneling, if the terran ever unsieges and moves out and the zerg rolls in with banelings and roaches you just die. you can't really micro your ghosts too well against banelings and they are really really bad against roaches. that is the biggest weakness of tank ghost, not tier3 units, they are terrible against ghosts. trust me I though it was a good idea to just go kill my opponent with ghost tank but it doesnt work that way, if he catches you unsieged you are dead. and another big weakness is that you have to spread out your tanks if you push so its easier for the mutas to kill the tanks.
every zerg loses to ghost/tank with blord/ultra, the best way to beat it is baneling/roach + muta.
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On November 04 2011 18:45 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 18:39 Odal wrote:On November 04 2011 18:08 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 18:04 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:59 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:56 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:46 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:43 BandonBanshee wrote:
Hearing terrans complain about mutas hurts my head. I do agree though that toss needs AA splash, tempest seems pretty lame though. And why should terrans not complaing about mutas? marines are better against mutas than stalkers are, but they are still too slow to defend all expos lategame and thors = archons. Vikings are alot worse vs. Mutas than Phoenixes are. Midgame it's not a problem to deal with mutas on 3 base, but once you get to 5+ it is actually impossible. On November 04 2011 17:46 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:42 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:30 Alpina wrote:
[quote]
it's not always that simple. Toss can always warp in units in his expansions, which combined with cannons can defend mutas. On the other hand if toss is pushing with main army and at the same time sending 8 Dts or zealots at two separate expansions then it becomes very very hard to deal with. And btw just keep one archon at each base with cannons and no mutas will ever attack. I call bullshit on that one. 1 archon doesn't even do anything against 30 mutas lategame, you can also magicbox the archon. same with thor. 2 thors per expo are dead supply and die instantly to 30 mutas. You need to consider that when you leave so much stuff behind PER base that your main army will be ridiculously small. You talk in such absolutes. If 30+ mutas were as good as you say they are Idra and other muta heavy zergs would never lose. If you deflect the initial harassment with good positioning there's nothing the muta's can do besides gain map control / stop drops. How often do you see zergs go mass muta lategame? almost never, they go broodlord or ultra 99% of the time. I beat blord ultra almost 100% of the time, but I always lose when the zerg goes lategame muta. You just can't defend 6 bases against muta harrass on maps like tal darim. So your complaining about mass muta in the late game...but then you say zerg's never go it and that you never lose to Ultra or broods...so your basicly saying you never lose to zerg? I dont see the problem. I don't get what your even trying to say...You keep talking about how 30 mutas can easily kill 6 missle turrets...well obviously loool how does that suggest anything is OP? 30 banshees can easily kill 6 spores. Muta's are only good if you play to their style. What in the world? You compare 30 banshees with 30 mutas? as if banshees are a universal unit that could be massed lategame. 30 mutas is a quite common scenario, having 30 banshees is simply impossible and not realistic at all. The problem is that whenever a zerg uses lategame mutas you as a terran cannot defend your bases anymore, as soons as you have 5+ bases you cannot defend all of them, there is no unit that let's you do that, same goes for protoss. Stop being silly, comparing 30 mutas to 30 banshee is retarded. NO race in the game has ONE unit that defends every base....wtf are you talking about. Im saying your defense has to be to scale. Watch pro terrans they defend groups of 20-30 mutas with a small handful of units + turrets. Mutas being OP against terran is the most retarded thing I've heard. Pro terrans hardly ever go into super lategame vs. Zerg and if they do the Zerg builds Blord/Ultra instead of Mutas. Have you ever played against super lategame muta harrass where you are spread out on 6 base as terran? You can't have your defenses to scale because you don't even have enough units. And don't put words into my mouth, I never said Mutas are OP in general. I said they are OP lategame because both, Protoss and Terran lack a fast enough unit that can defend multiple bases against mass muta harrass. I'm talking specifically about lategame TvZ, what part of that don't you understand? Lategame mutas are terrible because you're sacrificing your t3 army for a luck based unit fragile unit composition. If a ghost heavy terran or maxed deathball toss sees your mutas he can just come and stomp your face in. that's nonsense. mutas are 10x more useful than tier3 zerg units, tier 3 zerg units just get sniped, they are essentially useless units (yeah I said it), mutas however can harrass all game long and put pressure on the terran. a ghost based terran can't move out, the point of lategame ghost style is to split the map and let the zerg attack. the big weakness of tank ghost lategame is mass roach/baneling, if the terran ever unsieges and moves out and the zerg rolls in with banelings and roaches you just die. you can't really micro your ghosts too well against banelings and they are really really bad against roaches. that is the biggest weakness of tank ghost, not tier3 units, they are terrible against ghosts. trust me I though it was a good idea to just go kill my opponent with ghost tank but it doesnt work that way, if he catches you unsieged you are dead. and another big weakness is that you have to spread out your tanks if you push so its easier for the mutas to kill the tanks. every zerg loses to ghost/tank with blord/ultra, the best way to beat it is baneling/roach + muta.
Bleugh, statements like that make it obvious you play Terran not Zerg. Mutas are not better than the tier 3 options. Yes they are very useful for harassment throughout the entire game, but eventually you are going to have to engage that Terran ball of doom, and in that situation mutalisks just melt because of sheer dps.
There is a reason Zerg doesn't replace their mutalisks late game when they start to lose a few of them. Once Terran has planetary fortresses surrounded by 12 turrets and maybe with a Thor, all they are good for is quickly responding to drops. Mutalisks rule the midgame, if you are having trouble dealing with a large ball of mutas in the ultra late game, make more turrets. Nearly every unit in the late game Terran composition destroys mutas; marines, ghosts, thors etc.
I guess what I'm trying to say is you have it backwards, mutalisks become far less usefull the longer the game goes on, when Terran and Protoss get the tech and army size to deal with them. In the midgame they are super powerful and great for map control and not allowing Terran and Protoss to expand or attack, but really you shouldn't be too worried about having to deal with them late game. Overmaking defences (turrets, bunkers, thors) at every base is far better than undermaking them
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Yes, Marines, Thors, Archons, Turrets and Cannons are very cost-effective vs Mutas - but none of them is fast enough to catch mutas flying from base to base. Yes, you can split your forces, but it mean you can engage mutas worth X resources with only X/3, X/4 or even X/5 of their value - and in these scenarios Terran/Toss has disadvantage, since their superior firepower must be spread all over the map to catch single fast-moving cloud of death. So even if Mutas have significantly lower Hp-to-cost and dps-to-cost values then main enemy force, whenever they attack, they have huge advantage at certains parts of the map - just because enemy is forced to either spread army, or keep all forces in deathball and sacrifice expos. So basically Mutas cost-effectiveness disadvantage is negated completely by extreme positioning advantage making them extremely strong against everything they attack excluding enemy main army keeped in deathball. Spreading army is reducing Mutas positioning advantage, but is also negating mutas cost-effectiveness disadvantage (even if each of your "expo defense groups" is 5 times more cost-effective then mutas, it is losing because it is attacked by 20+ mutas, and each expo one by one...).
IMO perfect solution is giving both T and P fast moving (even at muta speed) air unit with attack range better then muta and splash. Something between Corsair and Valkyrie from SC1.
Mutas are not Imbalanced. It's just T/P lack of units able to safely counter them, is making Mutas OP. Fast moving, long ranged units with AA splash are key.
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Muta's are one of the only skill based harassers that require heavy responses from any race whatsoever. If those leave you might aswell cut banelings and give everyone collosus-esque units.
Mutalisks aren't overpowered, they can be dealt with if you play against them intelligently. Thank god they don't have as many hard counters as other zerg units do.
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EPT
