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I still think that in the hand of a good player Mutas are OP in HotS against both terran and protoss. There is nothing more frustrating than getting into lategame TvZ or PvZ on 5+ base and have Mutas literally everywhere, imo it is impossible to defend in such a lategame scenario. When the zerg has 30 mutas 5 turrets get just completely destroyed, funnily enough marines are good against mutas (very good) but they are way too slow. If the zerg never engages and just harrasses there should in theory be no way to kill them for either of the two other races, because mutas are sooo fast lol.
I played a 45 min TvZ on Taldarim yesterday and while the 4th and 5th are already hard enough to secure against ling counters and baneling shenanigans I felt really helpless against mutas, when the bases are so far away from eachother it's actually impossible to defend against Mutas on all sides, I was even using mass sensor towers and my marines were still not quick enough to deny all the harrassement. I think that's my main problem with mutas, in the hands of a good player they will always do damage, kind of the same with banshees in tvt, I hate units that if you don't mess it up just give you a big advantage and theres nothing your opponent can do, he can only minimize losses, but it's impossible to get away with 0 damage from muta harrass. DTs are different, if you prepare for them they do 0 damage, I made the same experience with hellions in tvt, if I know it's coming I just put a tank next to my mineral line = 0 damage. But mutas, even if you know they are coming and prepare for it the zerg player will always do damage and the more bases you have the harder it gets to deal with them to a point where i feel its almost impossible.
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On November 04 2011 10:05 hitpoint wrote:
If your opponent can make enough mutas to win a straight up engagement then you deserve to lose x2. Mutas are not OP.
Are you kidding me? The fact that lings are practically disposable and cost no gas, AND can be used to harass/pressure the Protoss to stay on 2 bases, AND the Protoss has to go through a tech path to safely scout to finally see a Spire only to realize he fucked up on his tech choice and sees 10 mutas incoming, doesn't make the unit OP? Mutas in large numbers are ridiculous enough by themselves, but coupled with lings and double ups from their ridiculously low cost can be downright bs.
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Well i know for protoss (i used to play toss before i switched to zerg 3 months ago) one of my most frusterating encounters was mass muta. There is no good counter in the laate game for mass muta. If you let zerg get that many mutas (sometimes its unavoidable) then youve pretty much lost, many ppl have said this before along with something like "if you let them get that many mutas its your own fault anyways".
I agree with blizzard stance on this though as i think there should always be something you can do at any point in the game to win, a race shouldnt beable to get a unit out in the late game (that is albeit hard to defend with through the early and mid game but that is besides the point) and then win simply because they survived the mid game and the other race doesnt have an effective counter.
Try putting 2-1 mutas against 2-1 stalkers, it isnt very pretty to be honest, they do really poorly. Aside fromm that archons are too slow , and a good zerg can dodge storms really easily and poke in and take out your HT's.
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On November 04 2011 15:22 Tatari wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 10:05 hitpoint wrote:
If your opponent can make enough mutas to win a straight up engagement then you deserve to lose x2. Mutas are not OP. Are you kidding me? The fact that lings are practically disposable and cost no gas, AND can be used to harass/pressure the Protoss to stay on 2 bases, AND the Protoss has to go through a tech path to safely scout to finally see a Spire only to realize he fucked up on his tech choice and sees 10 mutas incoming, doesn't make the unit OP? Mutas in large numbers are ridiculous enough by themselves, but coupled with lings and double ups from their ridiculously low cost can be downright bs.
everything in large numbers is riduculous =P and at the same tim you can counter everything. Btw where is the problem to get halliucination and scout zerg?
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On November 04 2011 16:17 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 15:22 Tatari wrote:On November 04 2011 10:05 hitpoint wrote:
If your opponent can make enough mutas to win a straight up engagement then you deserve to lose x2. Mutas are not OP. Are you kidding me? The fact that lings are practically disposable and cost no gas, AND can be used to harass/pressure the Protoss to stay on 2 bases, AND the Protoss has to go through a tech path to safely scout to finally see a Spire only to realize he fucked up on his tech choice and sees 10 mutas incoming, doesn't make the unit OP? Mutas in large numbers are ridiculous enough by themselves, but coupled with lings and double ups from their ridiculously low cost can be downright bs. everything in large numbers is riduculous =P and at the same tim you can counter everything. Btw where is the problem to get halliucination and scout zerg?
The problem with mutas is that even if you know they are coming, once you are spread out on 5+ bases in the lategame it's absolutely impossible to defend all of them, this goes for both, terran and protoss. Mutas are simply too mobile and the counter units are either not really massable (phoenix) or too slow (marine/blink stalker). Mutas are faster than everything, look at thors and archons, if the zerg doesn't engage the thors or archons they are just useless, because you will never get them even close enough to get some shots off at the mutas.
It's their mobility what makes them so op in the lategame. You can deal with mutas, midgame, but lategame once your army is really spread out it's so hard to defend bases. I always try to avoid TvZ lategame on some maps (taldarim) because im so scared of mass muta play. They just go in and take out your 5 turrets in 2 seconds and by the time your army gets there the base is already dead and if you leave 2 thors there they won't do anything either thx to magicbox.
Another problem with Mutas is that they force the T and P to spend ALOT of ressources in static defenses such as turrets or cannons, I had lategame TvZ's where I used 4k mins on just turrets to defend against Mutas, yes I build 40 turrets in one game. Those are minerals that are spent on things that are essentially useless in a fight. So whilst the T and P have to spend so much money on cannons/turrets (and trust me in a lategame T/PvsZ this is entirely possible) the Zerg can spend all his money on army, or even spines which are more useful in fights than cannons or turrets are. On maps like Tal'Darim for example if you want to play super lategame on 6-7 base you need to make mass planetaries/mass turrets, etc.. just to be able to defend expansions that are really far away. For Protoss it's even worse because they don't have plantaries so they have to make mass cannons. I've seen games where a protoss player built 10 cannons around his 5th base just to be safe against mutas and ling attacks.
This is a general problem with zerg, their units are so quick, on maps like tal darim it's impossible to spread out your units enough to defend all expansions. Lategame vs. Z is just terrible in general if the Zerg knows how to abuse the mobility of zerg. it's so easy for zerg to mulit-harrass P and T lategame. On tal darim you can attack the fifht base on the left with lings and at the same time attack the right side with mass muta. It takes a few clicks to pull that off and the P or T needs 20x the apm the zerg player needs to stop that harrass. sadly most zerg players don't abuse this ability lategame, they rather tech to blords and just try to overwhelm the P or T but I personally am alot more scare dof lategame mass muta/ling/baneling than lategame broodlords. I still think that zergs shouldn't get broodlords at all lategame, it completely nullifies their biggest advantage which is mobility.
I win so many games where a Zerg goes mass broodlord and I just go mass ghost, but whenever a zerg goes muta/ling and harrasses mutliple bases lategame I feel like I can't win. it's actually impossible to stop this kind of harrassment, of course tal darim is a bad example because it's lategame zerg heaven especially with how the bases are layed out. but I really hope this style of muta harrass all game doesn't catch on, my win rate against that is like 10%, against Blords or ultra lategame I have close to 100% win rate in TvZ. But most zergs will realize how OP mutas are lategame once they stop using blords and ultras and just stick with mutas, you can deny every 5th or 6th base on really big maps and theres nothing t or p can do.
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On November 04 2011 16:58 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 16:17 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 15:22 Tatari wrote:On November 04 2011 10:05 hitpoint wrote:
If your opponent can make enough mutas to win a straight up engagement then you deserve to lose x2. Mutas are not OP. Are you kidding me? The fact that lings are practically disposable and cost no gas, AND can be used to harass/pressure the Protoss to stay on 2 bases, AND the Protoss has to go through a tech path to safely scout to finally see a Spire only to realize he fucked up on his tech choice and sees 10 mutas incoming, doesn't make the unit OP? Mutas in large numbers are ridiculous enough by themselves, but coupled with lings and double ups from their ridiculously low cost can be downright bs. everything in large numbers is riduculous =P and at the same tim you can counter everything. Btw where is the problem to get halliucination and scout zerg? The problem with mutas is that even if you know they are coming, once you are spread out on 5+ bases in the lategame it's absolutely impossible to defend all of them, this goes for both, terran and protoss. Mutas are simply too mobile and the counter units are either not really massable (phoenix) or too slow (marine/blink stalker). Mutas are faster than everything, look at thors and archons, if the zerg doesn't engage the thors or archons they are just useless, because you will never get them even close enough to get some shots off at the mutas. It's their mobility what makes them so op in the lategame. You can deal with mutas, midgame, but lategame once your army is really spread out it's so hard to defend bases. I always try to avoid TvZ lategame on some maps (taldarim) because im so scared of mass muta play. They just go in and take out your 5 turrets in 2 seconds and by the time your army gets there the base is already dead and if you leave 2 thors there they won't do anything either thx to magicbox. Another problem with Mutas is that they force the T and P to spend ALOT of ressources in static defenses such as turrets or cannons, I had lategame TvZ's where I used 4k mins on just turrets to defend against Mutas, yes I build 40 turrets in one game. Those are minerals that are spent on things that are essentially useless in a fight. So whilst the T and P have to spend so much money on cannons/turrets (and trust me in a lategame T/PvsZ this is entirely possible) the Zerg can spend all his money on army, or even spines which are more useful in fights than cannons or turrets are. On maps like Tal'Darim for example if you want to play super lategame on 6-7 base you need to make mass planetaries/mass turrets, etc.. just to be able to defend expansions that are really far away. For Protoss it's even worse because they don't have plantaries so they have to make mass cannons. I've seen games where a protoss player built 10 cannons around his 5th base just to be safe against mutas and ling attacks. This is a general problem with zerg, their units are so quick, on maps like tal darim it's impossible to spread out your units enough to defend all expansions. Lategame vs. Z is just terrible in general if the Zerg knows how to abuse the mobility of zerg. it's so easy for zerg to mulit-harrass P and T lategame. On tal darim you can attack the fifht base on the left with lings and at the same time attack the right side with mass muta. It takes a few clicks to pull that off and the P or T needs 20x the apm the zerg player needs to stop that harrass. sadly most zerg players don't abuse this ability lategame, they rather tech to blords and just try to overwhelm the P or T but I personally am alot more scare dof lategame mass muta/ling/baneling than lategame broodlords. I still think that zergs shouldn't get broodlords at all lategame, it completely nullifies their biggest advantage which is mobility. I win so many games where a Zerg goes mass broodlord and I just go mass ghost, but whenever a zerg goes muta/ling and harrasses mutliple bases lategame I feel like I can't win. it's actually impossible to stop this kind of harrassment, of course tal darim is a bad example because it's lategame zerg heaven especially with how the bases are layed out. but I really hope this style of muta harrass all game doesn't catch on, my win rate against that is like 10%, against Blords or ultra lategame I have close to 100% win rate in TvZ. But most zergs will realize how OP mutas are lategame once they stop using blords and ultras and just stick with mutas, you can deny every 5th or 6th base on really big maps and theres nothing t or p can do.
it's same for all races. Do you think when zerg is on 5 bases it's easy to deal with terran drops or dt drops from toss? I can say that it's very hard, unless you make like 7 spines at each base, so your point does not prove much.
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On November 04 2011 17:13 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 16:58 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 16:17 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 15:22 Tatari wrote:On November 04 2011 10:05 hitpoint wrote:
If your opponent can make enough mutas to win a straight up engagement then you deserve to lose x2. Mutas are not OP. Are you kidding me? The fact that lings are practically disposable and cost no gas, AND can be used to harass/pressure the Protoss to stay on 2 bases, AND the Protoss has to go through a tech path to safely scout to finally see a Spire only to realize he fucked up on his tech choice and sees 10 mutas incoming, doesn't make the unit OP? Mutas in large numbers are ridiculous enough by themselves, but coupled with lings and double ups from their ridiculously low cost can be downright bs. everything in large numbers is riduculous =P and at the same tim you can counter everything. Btw where is the problem to get halliucination and scout zerg? The problem with mutas is that even if you know they are coming, once you are spread out on 5+ bases in the lategame it's absolutely impossible to defend all of them, this goes for both, terran and protoss. Mutas are simply too mobile and the counter units are either not really massable (phoenix) or too slow (marine/blink stalker). Mutas are faster than everything, look at thors and archons, if the zerg doesn't engage the thors or archons they are just useless, because you will never get them even close enough to get some shots off at the mutas. It's their mobility what makes them so op in the lategame. You can deal with mutas, midgame, but lategame once your army is really spread out it's so hard to defend bases. I always try to avoid TvZ lategame on some maps (taldarim) because im so scared of mass muta play. They just go in and take out your 5 turrets in 2 seconds and by the time your army gets there the base is already dead and if you leave 2 thors there they won't do anything either thx to magicbox. Another problem with Mutas is that they force the T and P to spend ALOT of ressources in static defenses such as turrets or cannons, I had lategame TvZ's where I used 4k mins on just turrets to defend against Mutas, yes I build 40 turrets in one game. Those are minerals that are spent on things that are essentially useless in a fight. So whilst the T and P have to spend so much money on cannons/turrets (and trust me in a lategame T/PvsZ this is entirely possible) the Zerg can spend all his money on army, or even spines which are more useful in fights than cannons or turrets are. On maps like Tal'Darim for example if you want to play super lategame on 6-7 base you need to make mass planetaries/mass turrets, etc.. just to be able to defend expansions that are really far away. For Protoss it's even worse because they don't have plantaries so they have to make mass cannons. I've seen games where a protoss player built 10 cannons around his 5th base just to be safe against mutas and ling attacks. This is a general problem with zerg, their units are so quick, on maps like tal darim it's impossible to spread out your units enough to defend all expansions. Lategame vs. Z is just terrible in general if the Zerg knows how to abuse the mobility of zerg. it's so easy for zerg to mulit-harrass P and T lategame. On tal darim you can attack the fifht base on the left with lings and at the same time attack the right side with mass muta. It takes a few clicks to pull that off and the P or T needs 20x the apm the zerg player needs to stop that harrass. sadly most zerg players don't abuse this ability lategame, they rather tech to blords and just try to overwhelm the P or T but I personally am alot more scare dof lategame mass muta/ling/baneling than lategame broodlords. I still think that zergs shouldn't get broodlords at all lategame, it completely nullifies their biggest advantage which is mobility. I win so many games where a Zerg goes mass broodlord and I just go mass ghost, but whenever a zerg goes muta/ling and harrasses mutliple bases lategame I feel like I can't win. it's actually impossible to stop this kind of harrassment, of course tal darim is a bad example because it's lategame zerg heaven especially with how the bases are layed out. but I really hope this style of muta harrass all game doesn't catch on, my win rate against that is like 10%, against Blords or ultra lategame I have close to 100% win rate in TvZ. But most zergs will realize how OP mutas are lategame once they stop using blords and ultras and just stick with mutas, you can deny every 5th or 6th base on really big maps and theres nothing t or p can do. same for all races. Do you think when zerg is on 5 bases it's easy to deal with terran drops or dt drops from toss? I can say that it's very hard, unless you make like 7 spines at each base, so your point does not prove much.
No it's absolutely not the same for all races. Zerg has the easiest time to defend lategame because of how quick their units are. Mutas can literally fly across Tal Darim in 10 seconds, how long does it take a Terran army with marines? 30-40 seconds? A Protoss army? 40-50 seconds? How long does it take speedlings to run across tal darim? maybe 20 seconds? zerg units are sooo much faster than T or P units which gives them an insane advantage in defending lategame harrass of P or T. Protoss has a small advantage over the terran because they can warp in, but in most cases if you defend against mutas you are so outnumbered with your warp ins that you need to wait for the main army and their main army generally is the slowest.
I play random on my second acc and main terran and I can guarantee you that zerg has definitely the easiest time defending lategame harrass and also has the easiest time to harrass lategame due to their unit speed.
And another big difference is that 6 spines actually mean that your expo is pretty safe against terran drops or DT drops (or will at least buy you enough time to get your main army there), 6 turrets or cannons however don't do anything against mass muta harrass and on top of that you have to consider that T and P armies are alot slower. So while the zerg can in most cases clean up the drop, there is nothing T or P can do to kill the mass mutas. zerg kills the turrets then goes for the base, takes minimal losses.... after X seconds he sees the T or P army coming.... flies away and attacks somewhere else.
Of course I'm talking about lategame, I'm not saying mutas are OP midgame, they are hard to deal with but it's managable, Lategame however it's absolute bullshit, i think every T or P player will agree with that.
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On November 04 2011 09:17 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 07:55 jdseemoreglass wrote:
I often think that blizzard makes changes to this game based upon what the average user struggles with. The average user sucks, and doesn't have a clue how to micro marines, so they make it easier by adding a better thor. At the pro level mutalisks aren't really a problem, but if I was in gold I could probably stomp on every player every single game with mutalisks.
Maybe I'm just paranoid, but it seems like many of their changes are geared to low-end players instead of the pro scene. And I guess from a financial perspective that makes sense, since the average SC2 player doesn't follow professional starcraft much, right? Yea, they're really not a big deal in pro matches. That's why Zergs never use them in ZvP or ZvT. So easy to deal with that once a pro gets 6-7 out, they get rolled by all those powerful marines, thors, stalkers, archons, fluffy bunnies, HTs, sentries, turrets, and cannons.
thats not true at all, mutas are a huge deal in pro level tvz. yes, they eventually melt to a huge terran ball, but the idea behind them is to get a fat economy while they pin the terran in base/make every terran push a coin-flip at best
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On November 04 2011 17:20 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 17:13 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 16:58 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 16:17 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 15:22 Tatari wrote:On November 04 2011 10:05 hitpoint wrote:
If your opponent can make enough mutas to win a straight up engagement then you deserve to lose x2. Mutas are not OP. Are you kidding me? The fact that lings are practically disposable and cost no gas, AND can be used to harass/pressure the Protoss to stay on 2 bases, AND the Protoss has to go through a tech path to safely scout to finally see a Spire only to realize he fucked up on his tech choice and sees 10 mutas incoming, doesn't make the unit OP? Mutas in large numbers are ridiculous enough by themselves, but coupled with lings and double ups from their ridiculously low cost can be downright bs. everything in large numbers is riduculous =P and at the same tim you can counter everything. Btw where is the problem to get halliucination and scout zerg? The problem with mutas is that even if you know they are coming, once you are spread out on 5+ bases in the lategame it's absolutely impossible to defend all of them, this goes for both, terran and protoss. Mutas are simply too mobile and the counter units are either not really massable (phoenix) or too slow (marine/blink stalker). Mutas are faster than everything, look at thors and archons, if the zerg doesn't engage the thors or archons they are just useless, because you will never get them even close enough to get some shots off at the mutas. It's their mobility what makes them so op in the lategame. You can deal with mutas, midgame, but lategame once your army is really spread out it's so hard to defend bases. I always try to avoid TvZ lategame on some maps (taldarim) because im so scared of mass muta play. They just go in and take out your 5 turrets in 2 seconds and by the time your army gets there the base is already dead and if you leave 2 thors there they won't do anything either thx to magicbox. Another problem with Mutas is that they force the T and P to spend ALOT of ressources in static defenses such as turrets or cannons, I had lategame TvZ's where I used 4k mins on just turrets to defend against Mutas, yes I build 40 turrets in one game. Those are minerals that are spent on things that are essentially useless in a fight. So whilst the T and P have to spend so much money on cannons/turrets (and trust me in a lategame T/PvsZ this is entirely possible) the Zerg can spend all his money on army, or even spines which are more useful in fights than cannons or turrets are. On maps like Tal'Darim for example if you want to play super lategame on 6-7 base you need to make mass planetaries/mass turrets, etc.. just to be able to defend expansions that are really far away. For Protoss it's even worse because they don't have plantaries so they have to make mass cannons. I've seen games where a protoss player built 10 cannons around his 5th base just to be safe against mutas and ling attacks. This is a general problem with zerg, their units are so quick, on maps like tal darim it's impossible to spread out your units enough to defend all expansions. Lategame vs. Z is just terrible in general if the Zerg knows how to abuse the mobility of zerg. it's so easy for zerg to mulit-harrass P and T lategame. On tal darim you can attack the fifht base on the left with lings and at the same time attack the right side with mass muta. It takes a few clicks to pull that off and the P or T needs 20x the apm the zerg player needs to stop that harrass. sadly most zerg players don't abuse this ability lategame, they rather tech to blords and just try to overwhelm the P or T but I personally am alot more scare dof lategame mass muta/ling/baneling than lategame broodlords. I still think that zergs shouldn't get broodlords at all lategame, it completely nullifies their biggest advantage which is mobility. I win so many games where a Zerg goes mass broodlord and I just go mass ghost, but whenever a zerg goes muta/ling and harrasses mutliple bases lategame I feel like I can't win. it's actually impossible to stop this kind of harrassment, of course tal darim is a bad example because it's lategame zerg heaven especially with how the bases are layed out. but I really hope this style of muta harrass all game doesn't catch on, my win rate against that is like 10%, against Blords or ultra lategame I have close to 100% win rate in TvZ. But most zergs will realize how OP mutas are lategame once they stop using blords and ultras and just stick with mutas, you can deny every 5th or 6th base on really big maps and theres nothing t or p can do. same for all races. Do you think when zerg is on 5 bases it's easy to deal with terran drops or dt drops from toss? I can say that it's very hard, unless you make like 7 spines at each base, so your point does not prove much. No it's absolutely not the same for all races. Zerg has the easiest time to defend lategame because of how quick their units are. Mutas can literally fly across Tal Darim in 10 seconds, how long does it take a Terran army with marines? 30-40 seconds? A Protoss army? 40-50 seconds? How long does it take speedlings to run across tal darim? maybe 20 seconds? zerg units are sooo much faster than T or P units which gives them an insane advantage in defending lategame harrass of P or T. Protoss has a small advantage over the terran because they can warp in, but in most cases if you defend against mutas you are so outnumbered with your warp ins that you need to wait for the main army and their main army generally is the slowest. I play random on my second acc and main terran and I can guarantee you that zerg has definitely the easiest time defending lategame harrass and also has the easiest time to harrass lategame due to their unit speed. And another big difference is that 6 spines actually mean that your expo is pretty safe against terran drops or DT drops (or will at least buy you enough time to get your main army there), 6 turrets or cannons however don't do anything against mass muta harrass and on top of that you have to consider that T and P armies are alot slower. So while the zerg can in most cases clean up the drop, there is nothing T or P can do to kill the mass mutas. zerg kills the turrets then goes for the base, takes minimal losses.... after X seconds he sees the T or P army coming.... flies away and attacks somewhere else. Of course I'm talking about lategame, I'm not saying mutas are OP midgame, they are hard to deal with but it's managable, Lategame however it's absolute bullshit, i think every T or P player will agree with that.
it's not always that simple. Toss can always warp in units in his expansions, which combined with cannons can defend mutas. On the other hand if toss is pushing with main army and at the same time sending 8 Dts or zealots at two separate expansions then it becomes very very hard to deal with. And btw just keep one archon at each base with cannons and no mutas will ever attack.
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mutas are hard to deal with because they can all be in the same control group. limit 10-12 units per control group, then SC2 will be a better game
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you people should trust blizzard if they say that races need somethink vs muta they need it you are not playing at pro level to decide
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On November 04 2011 17:30 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 17:20 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:13 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 16:58 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 16:17 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 15:22 Tatari wrote:On November 04 2011 10:05 hitpoint wrote:
If your opponent can make enough mutas to win a straight up engagement then you deserve to lose x2. Mutas are not OP. Are you kidding me? The fact that lings are practically disposable and cost no gas, AND can be used to harass/pressure the Protoss to stay on 2 bases, AND the Protoss has to go through a tech path to safely scout to finally see a Spire only to realize he fucked up on his tech choice and sees 10 mutas incoming, doesn't make the unit OP? Mutas in large numbers are ridiculous enough by themselves, but coupled with lings and double ups from their ridiculously low cost can be downright bs. everything in large numbers is riduculous =P and at the same tim you can counter everything. Btw where is the problem to get halliucination and scout zerg? The problem with mutas is that even if you know they are coming, once you are spread out on 5+ bases in the lategame it's absolutely impossible to defend all of them, this goes for both, terran and protoss. Mutas are simply too mobile and the counter units are either not really massable (phoenix) or too slow (marine/blink stalker). Mutas are faster than everything, look at thors and archons, if the zerg doesn't engage the thors or archons they are just useless, because you will never get them even close enough to get some shots off at the mutas. It's their mobility what makes them so op in the lategame. You can deal with mutas, midgame, but lategame once your army is really spread out it's so hard to defend bases. I always try to avoid TvZ lategame on some maps (taldarim) because im so scared of mass muta play. They just go in and take out your 5 turrets in 2 seconds and by the time your army gets there the base is already dead and if you leave 2 thors there they won't do anything either thx to magicbox. Another problem with Mutas is that they force the T and P to spend ALOT of ressources in static defenses such as turrets or cannons, I had lategame TvZ's where I used 4k mins on just turrets to defend against Mutas, yes I build 40 turrets in one game. Those are minerals that are spent on things that are essentially useless in a fight. So whilst the T and P have to spend so much money on cannons/turrets (and trust me in a lategame T/PvsZ this is entirely possible) the Zerg can spend all his money on army, or even spines which are more useful in fights than cannons or turrets are. On maps like Tal'Darim for example if you want to play super lategame on 6-7 base you need to make mass planetaries/mass turrets, etc.. just to be able to defend expansions that are really far away. For Protoss it's even worse because they don't have plantaries so they have to make mass cannons. I've seen games where a protoss player built 10 cannons around his 5th base just to be safe against mutas and ling attacks. This is a general problem with zerg, their units are so quick, on maps like tal darim it's impossible to spread out your units enough to defend all expansions. Lategame vs. Z is just terrible in general if the Zerg knows how to abuse the mobility of zerg. it's so easy for zerg to mulit-harrass P and T lategame. On tal darim you can attack the fifht base on the left with lings and at the same time attack the right side with mass muta. It takes a few clicks to pull that off and the P or T needs 20x the apm the zerg player needs to stop that harrass. sadly most zerg players don't abuse this ability lategame, they rather tech to blords and just try to overwhelm the P or T but I personally am alot more scare dof lategame mass muta/ling/baneling than lategame broodlords. I still think that zergs shouldn't get broodlords at all lategame, it completely nullifies their biggest advantage which is mobility. I win so many games where a Zerg goes mass broodlord and I just go mass ghost, but whenever a zerg goes muta/ling and harrasses mutliple bases lategame I feel like I can't win. it's actually impossible to stop this kind of harrassment, of course tal darim is a bad example because it's lategame zerg heaven especially with how the bases are layed out. but I really hope this style of muta harrass all game doesn't catch on, my win rate against that is like 10%, against Blords or ultra lategame I have close to 100% win rate in TvZ. But most zergs will realize how OP mutas are lategame once they stop using blords and ultras and just stick with mutas, you can deny every 5th or 6th base on really big maps and theres nothing t or p can do. same for all races. Do you think when zerg is on 5 bases it's easy to deal with terran drops or dt drops from toss? I can say that it's very hard, unless you make like 7 spines at each base, so your point does not prove much. No it's absolutely not the same for all races. Zerg has the easiest time to defend lategame because of how quick their units are. Mutas can literally fly across Tal Darim in 10 seconds, how long does it take a Terran army with marines? 30-40 seconds? A Protoss army? 40-50 seconds? How long does it take speedlings to run across tal darim? maybe 20 seconds? zerg units are sooo much faster than T or P units which gives them an insane advantage in defending lategame harrass of P or T. Protoss has a small advantage over the terran because they can warp in, but in most cases if you defend against mutas you are so outnumbered with your warp ins that you need to wait for the main army and their main army generally is the slowest. I play random on my second acc and main terran and I can guarantee you that zerg has definitely the easiest time defending lategame harrass and also has the easiest time to harrass lategame due to their unit speed. And another big difference is that 6 spines actually mean that your expo is pretty safe against terran drops or DT drops (or will at least buy you enough time to get your main army there), 6 turrets or cannons however don't do anything against mass muta harrass and on top of that you have to consider that T and P armies are alot slower. So while the zerg can in most cases clean up the drop, there is nothing T or P can do to kill the mass mutas. zerg kills the turrets then goes for the base, takes minimal losses.... after X seconds he sees the T or P army coming.... flies away and attacks somewhere else. Of course I'm talking about lategame, I'm not saying mutas are OP midgame, they are hard to deal with but it's managable, Lategame however it's absolute bullshit, i think every T or P player will agree with that. it's not always that simple. Toss can always warp in units in his expansions, which combined with cannons can defend mutas. On the other hand if toss is pushing with main army and at the same time sending 8 Dts or zealots at two separate expansions then it becomes very very hard to deal with. And btw just keep one archon at each base with cannons and no mutas will ever attack.
I call bullshit on that one. 1 archon doesn't even do anything against 30 mutas lategame, you can also magicbox the archon. same with thor. 2 thors per expo are dead supply and die instantly to 30 mutas. You need to consider that when you leave so much stuff behind PER base that your main army will be ridiculously small.
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Hearing terrans complain about mutas hurts my head. I do agree though that toss needs AA splash, tempest seems pretty lame though.
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On November 04 2011 17:42 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 17:30 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 17:20 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:13 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 16:58 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 16:17 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 15:22 Tatari wrote:On November 04 2011 10:05 hitpoint wrote:
If your opponent can make enough mutas to win a straight up engagement then you deserve to lose x2. Mutas are not OP. Are you kidding me? The fact that lings are practically disposable and cost no gas, AND can be used to harass/pressure the Protoss to stay on 2 bases, AND the Protoss has to go through a tech path to safely scout to finally see a Spire only to realize he fucked up on his tech choice and sees 10 mutas incoming, doesn't make the unit OP? Mutas in large numbers are ridiculous enough by themselves, but coupled with lings and double ups from their ridiculously low cost can be downright bs. everything in large numbers is riduculous =P and at the same tim you can counter everything. Btw where is the problem to get halliucination and scout zerg? The problem with mutas is that even if you know they are coming, once you are spread out on 5+ bases in the lategame it's absolutely impossible to defend all of them, this goes for both, terran and protoss. Mutas are simply too mobile and the counter units are either not really massable (phoenix) or too slow (marine/blink stalker). Mutas are faster than everything, look at thors and archons, if the zerg doesn't engage the thors or archons they are just useless, because you will never get them even close enough to get some shots off at the mutas. It's their mobility what makes them so op in the lategame. You can deal with mutas, midgame, but lategame once your army is really spread out it's so hard to defend bases. I always try to avoid TvZ lategame on some maps (taldarim) because im so scared of mass muta play. They just go in and take out your 5 turrets in 2 seconds and by the time your army gets there the base is already dead and if you leave 2 thors there they won't do anything either thx to magicbox. Another problem with Mutas is that they force the T and P to spend ALOT of ressources in static defenses such as turrets or cannons, I had lategame TvZ's where I used 4k mins on just turrets to defend against Mutas, yes I build 40 turrets in one game. Those are minerals that are spent on things that are essentially useless in a fight. So whilst the T and P have to spend so much money on cannons/turrets (and trust me in a lategame T/PvsZ this is entirely possible) the Zerg can spend all his money on army, or even spines which are more useful in fights than cannons or turrets are. On maps like Tal'Darim for example if you want to play super lategame on 6-7 base you need to make mass planetaries/mass turrets, etc.. just to be able to defend expansions that are really far away. For Protoss it's even worse because they don't have plantaries so they have to make mass cannons. I've seen games where a protoss player built 10 cannons around his 5th base just to be safe against mutas and ling attacks. This is a general problem with zerg, their units are so quick, on maps like tal darim it's impossible to spread out your units enough to defend all expansions. Lategame vs. Z is just terrible in general if the Zerg knows how to abuse the mobility of zerg. it's so easy for zerg to mulit-harrass P and T lategame. On tal darim you can attack the fifht base on the left with lings and at the same time attack the right side with mass muta. It takes a few clicks to pull that off and the P or T needs 20x the apm the zerg player needs to stop that harrass. sadly most zerg players don't abuse this ability lategame, they rather tech to blords and just try to overwhelm the P or T but I personally am alot more scare dof lategame mass muta/ling/baneling than lategame broodlords. I still think that zergs shouldn't get broodlords at all lategame, it completely nullifies their biggest advantage which is mobility. I win so many games where a Zerg goes mass broodlord and I just go mass ghost, but whenever a zerg goes muta/ling and harrasses mutliple bases lategame I feel like I can't win. it's actually impossible to stop this kind of harrassment, of course tal darim is a bad example because it's lategame zerg heaven especially with how the bases are layed out. but I really hope this style of muta harrass all game doesn't catch on, my win rate against that is like 10%, against Blords or ultra lategame I have close to 100% win rate in TvZ. But most zergs will realize how OP mutas are lategame once they stop using blords and ultras and just stick with mutas, you can deny every 5th or 6th base on really big maps and theres nothing t or p can do. same for all races. Do you think when zerg is on 5 bases it's easy to deal with terran drops or dt drops from toss? I can say that it's very hard, unless you make like 7 spines at each base, so your point does not prove much. No it's absolutely not the same for all races. Zerg has the easiest time to defend lategame because of how quick their units are. Mutas can literally fly across Tal Darim in 10 seconds, how long does it take a Terran army with marines? 30-40 seconds? A Protoss army? 40-50 seconds? How long does it take speedlings to run across tal darim? maybe 20 seconds? zerg units are sooo much faster than T or P units which gives them an insane advantage in defending lategame harrass of P or T. Protoss has a small advantage over the terran because they can warp in, but in most cases if you defend against mutas you are so outnumbered with your warp ins that you need to wait for the main army and their main army generally is the slowest. I play random on my second acc and main terran and I can guarantee you that zerg has definitely the easiest time defending lategame harrass and also has the easiest time to harrass lategame due to their unit speed. And another big difference is that 6 spines actually mean that your expo is pretty safe against terran drops or DT drops (or will at least buy you enough time to get your main army there), 6 turrets or cannons however don't do anything against mass muta harrass and on top of that you have to consider that T and P armies are alot slower. So while the zerg can in most cases clean up the drop, there is nothing T or P can do to kill the mass mutas. zerg kills the turrets then goes for the base, takes minimal losses.... after X seconds he sees the T or P army coming.... flies away and attacks somewhere else. Of course I'm talking about lategame, I'm not saying mutas are OP midgame, they are hard to deal with but it's managable, Lategame however it's absolute bullshit, i think every T or P player will agree with that. it's not always that simple. Toss can always warp in units in his expansions, which combined with cannons can defend mutas. On the other hand if toss is pushing with main army and at the same time sending 8 Dts or zealots at two separate expansions then it becomes very very hard to deal with. And btw just keep one archon at each base with cannons and no mutas will ever attack. I call bullshit on that one. 1 archon doesn't even do anything against 30 mutas lategame, you can also magicbox the archon. same with thor. 2 thors per expo are dead supply and die instantly to 30 mutas. You need to consider that when you leave so much stuff behind PER base that your main army will be ridiculously small.
You talk in such absolutes. If 30+ mutas were as good as you say they are Idra and other muta heavy zergs would never lose. If you deflect the initial harassment with good positioning there's nothing the muta's can do besides gain map control / stop drops.
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On November 04 2011 17:43 BandonBanshee wrote:
Hearing terrans complain about mutas hurts my head. I do agree though that toss needs AA splash, tempest seems pretty lame though.
And why should terrans not complaing about mutas? marines are better against mutas than stalkers are, but they are still too slow to defend all expos lategame and thors = archons. Vikings are alot worse vs. Mutas than Phoenixes are. Midgame it's not a problem to deal with mutas on 3 base, but once you get to 5+ it is actually impossible.
On November 04 2011 17:46 BandonBanshee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 17:42 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:30 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 17:20 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:13 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 16:58 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 16:17 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 15:22 Tatari wrote:On November 04 2011 10:05 hitpoint wrote:
If your opponent can make enough mutas to win a straight up engagement then you deserve to lose x2. Mutas are not OP. Are you kidding me? The fact that lings are practically disposable and cost no gas, AND can be used to harass/pressure the Protoss to stay on 2 bases, AND the Protoss has to go through a tech path to safely scout to finally see a Spire only to realize he fucked up on his tech choice and sees 10 mutas incoming, doesn't make the unit OP? Mutas in large numbers are ridiculous enough by themselves, but coupled with lings and double ups from their ridiculously low cost can be downright bs. everything in large numbers is riduculous =P and at the same tim you can counter everything. Btw where is the problem to get halliucination and scout zerg? The problem with mutas is that even if you know they are coming, once you are spread out on 5+ bases in the lategame it's absolutely impossible to defend all of them, this goes for both, terran and protoss. Mutas are simply too mobile and the counter units are either not really massable (phoenix) or too slow (marine/blink stalker). Mutas are faster than everything, look at thors and archons, if the zerg doesn't engage the thors or archons they are just useless, because you will never get them even close enough to get some shots off at the mutas. It's their mobility what makes them so op in the lategame. You can deal with mutas, midgame, but lategame once your army is really spread out it's so hard to defend bases. I always try to avoid TvZ lategame on some maps (taldarim) because im so scared of mass muta play. They just go in and take out your 5 turrets in 2 seconds and by the time your army gets there the base is already dead and if you leave 2 thors there they won't do anything either thx to magicbox. Another problem with Mutas is that they force the T and P to spend ALOT of ressources in static defenses such as turrets or cannons, I had lategame TvZ's where I used 4k mins on just turrets to defend against Mutas, yes I build 40 turrets in one game. Those are minerals that are spent on things that are essentially useless in a fight. So whilst the T and P have to spend so much money on cannons/turrets (and trust me in a lategame T/PvsZ this is entirely possible) the Zerg can spend all his money on army, or even spines which are more useful in fights than cannons or turrets are. On maps like Tal'Darim for example if you want to play super lategame on 6-7 base you need to make mass planetaries/mass turrets, etc.. just to be able to defend expansions that are really far away. For Protoss it's even worse because they don't have plantaries so they have to make mass cannons. I've seen games where a protoss player built 10 cannons around his 5th base just to be safe against mutas and ling attacks. This is a general problem with zerg, their units are so quick, on maps like tal darim it's impossible to spread out your units enough to defend all expansions. Lategame vs. Z is just terrible in general if the Zerg knows how to abuse the mobility of zerg. it's so easy for zerg to mulit-harrass P and T lategame. On tal darim you can attack the fifht base on the left with lings and at the same time attack the right side with mass muta. It takes a few clicks to pull that off and the P or T needs 20x the apm the zerg player needs to stop that harrass. sadly most zerg players don't abuse this ability lategame, they rather tech to blords and just try to overwhelm the P or T but I personally am alot more scare dof lategame mass muta/ling/baneling than lategame broodlords. I still think that zergs shouldn't get broodlords at all lategame, it completely nullifies their biggest advantage which is mobility. I win so many games where a Zerg goes mass broodlord and I just go mass ghost, but whenever a zerg goes muta/ling and harrasses mutliple bases lategame I feel like I can't win. it's actually impossible to stop this kind of harrassment, of course tal darim is a bad example because it's lategame zerg heaven especially with how the bases are layed out. but I really hope this style of muta harrass all game doesn't catch on, my win rate against that is like 10%, against Blords or ultra lategame I have close to 100% win rate in TvZ. But most zergs will realize how OP mutas are lategame once they stop using blords and ultras and just stick with mutas, you can deny every 5th or 6th base on really big maps and theres nothing t or p can do. same for all races. Do you think when zerg is on 5 bases it's easy to deal with terran drops or dt drops from toss? I can say that it's very hard, unless you make like 7 spines at each base, so your point does not prove much. No it's absolutely not the same for all races. Zerg has the easiest time to defend lategame because of how quick their units are. Mutas can literally fly across Tal Darim in 10 seconds, how long does it take a Terran army with marines? 30-40 seconds? A Protoss army? 40-50 seconds? How long does it take speedlings to run across tal darim? maybe 20 seconds? zerg units are sooo much faster than T or P units which gives them an insane advantage in defending lategame harrass of P or T. Protoss has a small advantage over the terran because they can warp in, but in most cases if you defend against mutas you are so outnumbered with your warp ins that you need to wait for the main army and their main army generally is the slowest. I play random on my second acc and main terran and I can guarantee you that zerg has definitely the easiest time defending lategame harrass and also has the easiest time to harrass lategame due to their unit speed. And another big difference is that 6 spines actually mean that your expo is pretty safe against terran drops or DT drops (or will at least buy you enough time to get your main army there), 6 turrets or cannons however don't do anything against mass muta harrass and on top of that you have to consider that T and P armies are alot slower. So while the zerg can in most cases clean up the drop, there is nothing T or P can do to kill the mass mutas. zerg kills the turrets then goes for the base, takes minimal losses.... after X seconds he sees the T or P army coming.... flies away and attacks somewhere else. Of course I'm talking about lategame, I'm not saying mutas are OP midgame, they are hard to deal with but it's managable, Lategame however it's absolute bullshit, i think every T or P player will agree with that. it's not always that simple. Toss can always warp in units in his expansions, which combined with cannons can defend mutas. On the other hand if toss is pushing with main army and at the same time sending 8 Dts or zealots at two separate expansions then it becomes very very hard to deal with. And btw just keep one archon at each base with cannons and no mutas will ever attack. I call bullshit on that one. 1 archon doesn't even do anything against 30 mutas lategame, you can also magicbox the archon. same with thor. 2 thors per expo are dead supply and die instantly to 30 mutas. You need to consider that when you leave so much stuff behind PER base that your main army will be ridiculously small. You talk in such absolutes. If 30+ mutas were as good as you say they are Idra and other muta heavy zergs would never lose. If you deflect the initial harassment with good positioning there's nothing the muta's can do besides gain map control / stop drops.
How often do you see zergs go mass muta lategame? almost never, they go broodlord or ultra 99% of the time. I beat blord ultra almost 100% of the time, but I always lose when the zerg goes lategame muta. You just can't defend 6 bases against muta harrass on maps like tal darim.
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Maybe some Terrans should start usign Ravens... ... They have pretty neat stuff against Mutas... Like all 3 spells...
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On November 04 2011 17:51 Velr wrote:
Maybe some Terrans should start usign Ravens... ... They have pretty neat stuff against Mutas... Like all 3 spells...
Now you are just being silly. Turrets are absolutely useless against lategame Mutas. PDD is good against Mutas ONLY if you force enangement, in which case thors and marines are actually good enough. And HSM is simply awful, it's too slow and it's splash damage is absolutely nullified by magicbox, it literally doesn't kill a single unit if the zerg magicboxes (and he would have to not move his mutas either which is very unlikely).
None of the raven spells actually help in defending lategame muta harrass. But it's always funny when people think the raven si the answer to anything, it's quite frankly a bad unit unless you have a specific puprose for it, like in the 1/1/1 push against protoss other than that it's alot worse than the ghost and absolutely useless.
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On November 04 2011 17:46 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 17:43 BandonBanshee wrote:
Hearing terrans complain about mutas hurts my head. I do agree though that toss needs AA splash, tempest seems pretty lame though. And why should terrans not complaing about mutas? marines are better against mutas than stalkers are, but they are still too slow to defend all expos lategame and thors = archons. Vikings are alot worse vs. Mutas than Phoenixes are. Midgame it's not a problem to deal with mutas on 3 base, but once you get to 5+ it is actually impossible. Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 17:46 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:42 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:30 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 17:20 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:13 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 16:58 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 16:17 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 15:22 Tatari wrote:On November 04 2011 10:05 hitpoint wrote:
If your opponent can make enough mutas to win a straight up engagement then you deserve to lose x2. Mutas are not OP. Are you kidding me? The fact that lings are practically disposable and cost no gas, AND can be used to harass/pressure the Protoss to stay on 2 bases, AND the Protoss has to go through a tech path to safely scout to finally see a Spire only to realize he fucked up on his tech choice and sees 10 mutas incoming, doesn't make the unit OP? Mutas in large numbers are ridiculous enough by themselves, but coupled with lings and double ups from their ridiculously low cost can be downright bs. everything in large numbers is riduculous =P and at the same tim you can counter everything. Btw where is the problem to get halliucination and scout zerg? The problem with mutas is that even if you know they are coming, once you are spread out on 5+ bases in the lategame it's absolutely impossible to defend all of them, this goes for both, terran and protoss. Mutas are simply too mobile and the counter units are either not really massable (phoenix) or too slow (marine/blink stalker). Mutas are faster than everything, look at thors and archons, if the zerg doesn't engage the thors or archons they are just useless, because you will never get them even close enough to get some shots off at the mutas. It's their mobility what makes them so op in the lategame. You can deal with mutas, midgame, but lategame once your army is really spread out it's so hard to defend bases. I always try to avoid TvZ lategame on some maps (taldarim) because im so scared of mass muta play. They just go in and take out your 5 turrets in 2 seconds and by the time your army gets there the base is already dead and if you leave 2 thors there they won't do anything either thx to magicbox. Another problem with Mutas is that they force the T and P to spend ALOT of ressources in static defenses such as turrets or cannons, I had lategame TvZ's where I used 4k mins on just turrets to defend against Mutas, yes I build 40 turrets in one game. Those are minerals that are spent on things that are essentially useless in a fight. So whilst the T and P have to spend so much money on cannons/turrets (and trust me in a lategame T/PvsZ this is entirely possible) the Zerg can spend all his money on army, or even spines which are more useful in fights than cannons or turrets are. On maps like Tal'Darim for example if you want to play super lategame on 6-7 base you need to make mass planetaries/mass turrets, etc.. just to be able to defend expansions that are really far away. For Protoss it's even worse because they don't have plantaries so they have to make mass cannons. I've seen games where a protoss player built 10 cannons around his 5th base just to be safe against mutas and ling attacks. This is a general problem with zerg, their units are so quick, on maps like tal darim it's impossible to spread out your units enough to defend all expansions. Lategame vs. Z is just terrible in general if the Zerg knows how to abuse the mobility of zerg. it's so easy for zerg to mulit-harrass P and T lategame. On tal darim you can attack the fifht base on the left with lings and at the same time attack the right side with mass muta. It takes a few clicks to pull that off and the P or T needs 20x the apm the zerg player needs to stop that harrass. sadly most zerg players don't abuse this ability lategame, they rather tech to blords and just try to overwhelm the P or T but I personally am alot more scare dof lategame mass muta/ling/baneling than lategame broodlords. I still think that zergs shouldn't get broodlords at all lategame, it completely nullifies their biggest advantage which is mobility. I win so many games where a Zerg goes mass broodlord and I just go mass ghost, but whenever a zerg goes muta/ling and harrasses mutliple bases lategame I feel like I can't win. it's actually impossible to stop this kind of harrassment, of course tal darim is a bad example because it's lategame zerg heaven especially with how the bases are layed out. but I really hope this style of muta harrass all game doesn't catch on, my win rate against that is like 10%, against Blords or ultra lategame I have close to 100% win rate in TvZ. But most zergs will realize how OP mutas are lategame once they stop using blords and ultras and just stick with mutas, you can deny every 5th or 6th base on really big maps and theres nothing t or p can do. same for all races. Do you think when zerg is on 5 bases it's easy to deal with terran drops or dt drops from toss? I can say that it's very hard, unless you make like 7 spines at each base, so your point does not prove much. No it's absolutely not the same for all races. Zerg has the easiest time to defend lategame because of how quick their units are. Mutas can literally fly across Tal Darim in 10 seconds, how long does it take a Terran army with marines? 30-40 seconds? A Protoss army? 40-50 seconds? How long does it take speedlings to run across tal darim? maybe 20 seconds? zerg units are sooo much faster than T or P units which gives them an insane advantage in defending lategame harrass of P or T. Protoss has a small advantage over the terran because they can warp in, but in most cases if you defend against mutas you are so outnumbered with your warp ins that you need to wait for the main army and their main army generally is the slowest. I play random on my second acc and main terran and I can guarantee you that zerg has definitely the easiest time defending lategame harrass and also has the easiest time to harrass lategame due to their unit speed. And another big difference is that 6 spines actually mean that your expo is pretty safe against terran drops or DT drops (or will at least buy you enough time to get your main army there), 6 turrets or cannons however don't do anything against mass muta harrass and on top of that you have to consider that T and P armies are alot slower. So while the zerg can in most cases clean up the drop, there is nothing T or P can do to kill the mass mutas. zerg kills the turrets then goes for the base, takes minimal losses.... after X seconds he sees the T or P army coming.... flies away and attacks somewhere else. Of course I'm talking about lategame, I'm not saying mutas are OP midgame, they are hard to deal with but it's managable, Lategame however it's absolute bullshit, i think every T or P player will agree with that. it's not always that simple. Toss can always warp in units in his expansions, which combined with cannons can defend mutas. On the other hand if toss is pushing with main army and at the same time sending 8 Dts or zealots at two separate expansions then it becomes very very hard to deal with. And btw just keep one archon at each base with cannons and no mutas will ever attack. I call bullshit on that one. 1 archon doesn't even do anything against 30 mutas lategame, you can also magicbox the archon. same with thor. 2 thors per expo are dead supply and die instantly to 30 mutas. You need to consider that when you leave so much stuff behind PER base that your main army will be ridiculously small. You talk in such absolutes. If 30+ mutas were as good as you say they are Idra and other muta heavy zergs would never lose. If you deflect the initial harassment with good positioning there's nothing the muta's can do besides gain map control / stop drops. How often do you see zergs go mass muta lategame? almost never, they go broodlord or ultra 99% of the time. I beat blord ultra almost 100% of the time, but I always lose when the zerg goes lategame muta. You just can't defend 6 bases against muta harrass on maps like tal darim.
So your complaining about mass muta in the late game...but then you say zerg's never go it and that you never lose to Ultra or broods...so your basicly saying you never lose to zerg? I dont see the problem.
I don't get what your even trying to say...You keep talking about how 30 mutas can easily kill 6 missle turrets...well obviously loool how does that suggest anything is OP? 30 banshees can easily kill 6 spores. Muta's are only good if you play to their style.
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On November 04 2011 17:56 BandonBanshee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 17:46 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:43 BandonBanshee wrote:
Hearing terrans complain about mutas hurts my head. I do agree though that toss needs AA splash, tempest seems pretty lame though. And why should terrans not complaing about mutas? marines are better against mutas than stalkers are, but they are still too slow to defend all expos lategame and thors = archons. Vikings are alot worse vs. Mutas than Phoenixes are. Midgame it's not a problem to deal with mutas on 3 base, but once you get to 5+ it is actually impossible. On November 04 2011 17:46 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:42 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:30 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 17:20 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:13 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 16:58 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 16:17 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 15:22 Tatari wrote:
[quote]
Are you kidding me? The fact that lings are practically disposable and cost no gas, AND can be used to harass/pressure the Protoss to stay on 2 bases, AND the Protoss has to go through a tech path to safely scout to finally see a Spire only to realize he fucked up on his tech choice and sees 10 mutas incoming, doesn't make the unit OP? Mutas in large numbers are ridiculous enough by themselves, but coupled with lings and double ups from their ridiculously low cost can be downright bs. everything in large numbers is riduculous =P and at the same tim you can counter everything. Btw where is the problem to get halliucination and scout zerg? The problem with mutas is that even if you know they are coming, once you are spread out on 5+ bases in the lategame it's absolutely impossible to defend all of them, this goes for both, terran and protoss. Mutas are simply too mobile and the counter units are either not really massable (phoenix) or too slow (marine/blink stalker). Mutas are faster than everything, look at thors and archons, if the zerg doesn't engage the thors or archons they are just useless, because you will never get them even close enough to get some shots off at the mutas. It's their mobility what makes them so op in the lategame. You can deal with mutas, midgame, but lategame once your army is really spread out it's so hard to defend bases. I always try to avoid TvZ lategame on some maps (taldarim) because im so scared of mass muta play. They just go in and take out your 5 turrets in 2 seconds and by the time your army gets there the base is already dead and if you leave 2 thors there they won't do anything either thx to magicbox. Another problem with Mutas is that they force the T and P to spend ALOT of ressources in static defenses such as turrets or cannons, I had lategame TvZ's where I used 4k mins on just turrets to defend against Mutas, yes I build 40 turrets in one game. Those are minerals that are spent on things that are essentially useless in a fight. So whilst the T and P have to spend so much money on cannons/turrets (and trust me in a lategame T/PvsZ this is entirely possible) the Zerg can spend all his money on army, or even spines which are more useful in fights than cannons or turrets are. On maps like Tal'Darim for example if you want to play super lategame on 6-7 base you need to make mass planetaries/mass turrets, etc.. just to be able to defend expansions that are really far away. For Protoss it's even worse because they don't have plantaries so they have to make mass cannons. I've seen games where a protoss player built 10 cannons around his 5th base just to be safe against mutas and ling attacks. This is a general problem with zerg, their units are so quick, on maps like tal darim it's impossible to spread out your units enough to defend all expansions. Lategame vs. Z is just terrible in general if the Zerg knows how to abuse the mobility of zerg. it's so easy for zerg to mulit-harrass P and T lategame. On tal darim you can attack the fifht base on the left with lings and at the same time attack the right side with mass muta. It takes a few clicks to pull that off and the P or T needs 20x the apm the zerg player needs to stop that harrass. sadly most zerg players don't abuse this ability lategame, they rather tech to blords and just try to overwhelm the P or T but I personally am alot more scare dof lategame mass muta/ling/baneling than lategame broodlords. I still think that zergs shouldn't get broodlords at all lategame, it completely nullifies their biggest advantage which is mobility. I win so many games where a Zerg goes mass broodlord and I just go mass ghost, but whenever a zerg goes muta/ling and harrasses mutliple bases lategame I feel like I can't win. it's actually impossible to stop this kind of harrassment, of course tal darim is a bad example because it's lategame zerg heaven especially with how the bases are layed out. but I really hope this style of muta harrass all game doesn't catch on, my win rate against that is like 10%, against Blords or ultra lategame I have close to 100% win rate in TvZ. But most zergs will realize how OP mutas are lategame once they stop using blords and ultras and just stick with mutas, you can deny every 5th or 6th base on really big maps and theres nothing t or p can do. same for all races. Do you think when zerg is on 5 bases it's easy to deal with terran drops or dt drops from toss? I can say that it's very hard, unless you make like 7 spines at each base, so your point does not prove much. No it's absolutely not the same for all races. Zerg has the easiest time to defend lategame because of how quick their units are. Mutas can literally fly across Tal Darim in 10 seconds, how long does it take a Terran army with marines? 30-40 seconds? A Protoss army? 40-50 seconds? How long does it take speedlings to run across tal darim? maybe 20 seconds? zerg units are sooo much faster than T or P units which gives them an insane advantage in defending lategame harrass of P or T. Protoss has a small advantage over the terran because they can warp in, but in most cases if you defend against mutas you are so outnumbered with your warp ins that you need to wait for the main army and their main army generally is the slowest. I play random on my second acc and main terran and I can guarantee you that zerg has definitely the easiest time defending lategame harrass and also has the easiest time to harrass lategame due to their unit speed. And another big difference is that 6 spines actually mean that your expo is pretty safe against terran drops or DT drops (or will at least buy you enough time to get your main army there), 6 turrets or cannons however don't do anything against mass muta harrass and on top of that you have to consider that T and P armies are alot slower. So while the zerg can in most cases clean up the drop, there is nothing T or P can do to kill the mass mutas. zerg kills the turrets then goes for the base, takes minimal losses.... after X seconds he sees the T or P army coming.... flies away and attacks somewhere else. Of course I'm talking about lategame, I'm not saying mutas are OP midgame, they are hard to deal with but it's managable, Lategame however it's absolute bullshit, i think every T or P player will agree with that. it's not always that simple. Toss can always warp in units in his expansions, which combined with cannons can defend mutas. On the other hand if toss is pushing with main army and at the same time sending 8 Dts or zealots at two separate expansions then it becomes very very hard to deal with. And btw just keep one archon at each base with cannons and no mutas will ever attack. I call bullshit on that one. 1 archon doesn't even do anything against 30 mutas lategame, you can also magicbox the archon. same with thor. 2 thors per expo are dead supply and die instantly to 30 mutas. You need to consider that when you leave so much stuff behind PER base that your main army will be ridiculously small. You talk in such absolutes. If 30+ mutas were as good as you say they are Idra and other muta heavy zergs would never lose. If you deflect the initial harassment with good positioning there's nothing the muta's can do besides gain map control / stop drops. How often do you see zergs go mass muta lategame? almost never, they go broodlord or ultra 99% of the time. I beat blord ultra almost 100% of the time, but I always lose when the zerg goes lategame muta. You just can't defend 6 bases against muta harrass on maps like tal darim. So your complaining about mass muta in the late game...but then you say zerg's never go it and that you never lose to Ultra or broods...so your basicly saying you never lose to zerg? I dont see the problem. I don't get what your even trying to say...You keep talking about how 30 mutas can easily kill 6 missle turrets...well obviously loool how does that suggest anything is OP? 30 banshees can easily kill 6 spores. Muta's are only good if you play to their style.
What in the world? You compare 30 banshees with 30 mutas? as if banshees are a universal unit that could be massed lategame. 30 mutas is a quite common scenario, having 30 banshees is simply impossible and not realistic at all.
The problem is that whenever a zerg uses lategame mutas you as a terran cannot defend your bases anymore, as soons as you have 5+ bases you cannot defend all of them, there is no unit that let's you do that, same goes for protoss.
Stop being silly, comparing 30 mutas to 30 banshee is retarded.
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On November 04 2011 17:59 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 17:56 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:46 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:43 BandonBanshee wrote:
Hearing terrans complain about mutas hurts my head. I do agree though that toss needs AA splash, tempest seems pretty lame though. And why should terrans not complaing about mutas? marines are better against mutas than stalkers are, but they are still too slow to defend all expos lategame and thors = archons. Vikings are alot worse vs. Mutas than Phoenixes are. Midgame it's not a problem to deal with mutas on 3 base, but once you get to 5+ it is actually impossible. On November 04 2011 17:46 BandonBanshee wrote:On November 04 2011 17:42 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:30 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 17:20 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 17:13 Alpina wrote:On November 04 2011 16:58 doko100 wrote:On November 04 2011 16:17 Alpina wrote:
[quote]
everything in large numbers is riduculous =P and at the same tim you can counter everything. Btw where is the problem to get halliucination and scout zerg? The problem with mutas is that even if you know they are coming, once you are spread out on 5+ bases in the lategame it's absolutely impossible to defend all of them, this goes for both, terran and protoss. Mutas are simply too mobile and the counter units are either not really massable (phoenix) or too slow (marine/blink stalker). Mutas are faster than everything, look at thors and archons, if the zerg doesn't engage the thors or archons they are just useless, because you will never get them even close enough to get some shots off at the mutas. It's their mobility what makes them so op in the lategame. You can deal with mutas, midgame, but lategame once your army is really spread out it's so hard to defend bases. I always try to avoid TvZ lategame on some maps (taldarim) because im so scared of mass muta play. They just go in and take out your 5 turrets in 2 seconds and by the time your army gets there the base is already dead and if you leave 2 thors there they won't do anything either thx to magicbox. Another problem with Mutas is that they force the T and P to spend ALOT of ressources in static defenses such as turrets or cannons, I had lategame TvZ's where I used 4k mins on just turrets to defend against Mutas, yes I build 40 turrets in one game. Those are minerals that are spent on things that are essentially useless in a fight. So whilst the T and P have to spend so much money on cannons/turrets (and trust me in a lategame T/PvsZ this is entirely possible) the Zerg can spend all his money on army, or even spines which are more useful in fights than cannons or turrets are. On maps like Tal'Darim for example if you want to play super lategame on 6-7 base you need to make mass planetaries/mass turrets, etc.. just to be able to defend expansions that are really far away. For Protoss it's even worse because they don't have plantaries so they have to make mass cannons. I've seen games where a protoss player built 10 cannons around his 5th base just to be safe against mutas and ling attacks. This is a general problem with zerg, their units are so quick, on maps like tal darim it's impossible to spread out your units enough to defend all expansions. Lategame vs. Z is just terrible in general if the Zerg knows how to abuse the mobility of zerg. it's so easy for zerg to mulit-harrass P and T lategame. On tal darim you can attack the fifht base on the left with lings and at the same time attack the right side with mass muta. It takes a few clicks to pull that off and the P or T needs 20x the apm the zerg player needs to stop that harrass. sadly most zerg players don't abuse this ability lategame, they rather tech to blords and just try to overwhelm the P or T but I personally am alot more scare dof lategame mass muta/ling/baneling than lategame broodlords. I still think that zergs shouldn't get broodlords at all lategame, it completely nullifies their biggest advantage which is mobility. I win so many games where a Zerg goes mass broodlord and I just go mass ghost, but whenever a zerg goes muta/ling and harrasses mutliple bases lategame I feel like I can't win. it's actually impossible to stop this kind of harrassment, of course tal darim is a bad example because it's lategame zerg heaven especially with how the bases are layed out. but I really hope this style of muta harrass all game doesn't catch on, my win rate against that is like 10%, against Blords or ultra lategame I have close to 100% win rate in TvZ. But most zergs will realize how OP mutas are lategame once they stop using blords and ultras and just stick with mutas, you can deny every 5th or 6th base on really big maps and theres nothing t or p can do. same for all races. Do you think when zerg is on 5 bases it's easy to deal with terran drops or dt drops from toss? I can say that it's very hard, unless you make like 7 spines at each base, so your point does not prove much. No it's absolutely not the same for all races. Zerg has the easiest time to defend lategame because of how quick their units are. Mutas can literally fly across Tal Darim in 10 seconds, how long does it take a Terran army with marines? 30-40 seconds? A Protoss army? 40-50 seconds? How long does it take speedlings to run across tal darim? maybe 20 seconds? zerg units are sooo much faster than T or P units which gives them an insane advantage in defending lategame harrass of P or T. Protoss has a small advantage over the terran because they can warp in, but in most cases if you defend against mutas you are so outnumbered with your warp ins that you need to wait for the main army and their main army generally is the slowest. I play random on my second acc and main terran and I can guarantee you that zerg has definitely the easiest time defending lategame harrass and also has the easiest time to harrass lategame due to their unit speed. And another big difference is that 6 spines actually mean that your expo is pretty safe against terran drops or DT drops (or will at least buy you enough time to get your main army there), 6 turrets or cannons however don't do anything against mass muta harrass and on top of that you have to consider that T and P armies are alot slower. So while the zerg can in most cases clean up the drop, there is nothing T or P can do to kill the mass mutas. zerg kills the turrets then goes for the base, takes minimal losses.... after X seconds he sees the T or P army coming.... flies away and attacks somewhere else. Of course I'm talking about lategame, I'm not saying mutas are OP midgame, they are hard to deal with but it's managable, Lategame however it's absolute bullshit, i think every T or P player will agree with that. it's not always that simple. Toss can always warp in units in his expansions, which combined with cannons can defend mutas. On the other hand if toss is pushing with main army and at the same time sending 8 Dts or zealots at two separate expansions then it becomes very very hard to deal with. And btw just keep one archon at each base with cannons and no mutas will ever attack. I call bullshit on that one. 1 archon doesn't even do anything against 30 mutas lategame, you can also magicbox the archon. same with thor. 2 thors per expo are dead supply and die instantly to 30 mutas. You need to consider that when you leave so much stuff behind PER base that your main army will be ridiculously small. You talk in such absolutes. If 30+ mutas were as good as you say they are Idra and other muta heavy zergs would never lose. If you deflect the initial harassment with good positioning there's nothing the muta's can do besides gain map control / stop drops. How often do you see zergs go mass muta lategame? almost never, they go broodlord or ultra 99% of the time. I beat blord ultra almost 100% of the time, but I always lose when the zerg goes lategame muta. You just can't defend 6 bases against muta harrass on maps like tal darim. So your complaining about mass muta in the late game...but then you say zerg's never go it and that you never lose to Ultra or broods...so your basicly saying you never lose to zerg? I dont see the problem. I don't get what your even trying to say...You keep talking about how 30 mutas can easily kill 6 missle turrets...well obviously loool how does that suggest anything is OP? 30 banshees can easily kill 6 spores. Muta's are only good if you play to their style. What in the world? You compare 30 banshees with 30 mutas? as if banshees are a universal unit that could be massed lategame. 30 mutas is a quite common scenario, having 30 banshees is simply impossible and not realistic at all. The problem is that whenever a zerg uses lategame mutas you as a terran cannot defend your bases anymore, as soons as you have 5+ bases you cannot defend all of them, there is no unit that let's you do that, same goes for protoss. Stop being silly, comparing 30 mutas to 30 banshee is retarded.
NO race in the game has ONE unit that defends every base....wtf are you talking about. Im saying your defense has to be to scale. Watch pro terrans they defend groups of 20-30 mutas with a small handful of units + turrets. Mutas being OP against terran is the most retarded thing I've heard.
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