|
On November 04 2011 21:10 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 21:05 Applesqt wrote:
Mutalisks would be fixed if turrets, cannons and spore colonies were better. An example would be broodwar where mutas because useless if you had 3-4 per base LOL. Turrets and canons are way better now than back in broodwar. Marines are better than they were in broodwar. The difference is that noone could control more than 12mutalisks in broodwar, so mass mutalisk was not playable! Turrets are EXTREMLY good vs mutalisks. Just spread your marines all over your bases like good terrans do and you are fine.
Sup man congrats to your new icon! I was getting tired arguing with that zerg-biased hydra  JK
Seriously though there are lots of new ways to defend against mutas compared to BW but just like you say the control group stuff has made mass muta microable in a way that we never saw in BW. Terran NEEDS a MM squad with turret or thor support to be able to defend muta harass (just the same as zerg needs spare sling/bling in base to catch drops if the army is far away from main/expos). The problem is thors are so damn slow and bad by themselves that the number of marines needed to defend 30 mutas is ridiculous. You have to leave two medivacs full of marines at least and that's not counting the turret cost.
|
On November 04 2011 21:23 Exarian wrote:Show nested quote +Turrets are EXTREMLY good vs mutalisks. Just spread your marines all over your bases like good terrans do and you are fine. Then Zerg will just spread creep and bases all over the map and tech to broodlords... And laugh on you. You usually cannot win vs Zerg if you don't play agressively. You cannot sit in 2-3 bases and just spam marines and turrets - if you do this, you already lost the game.
no, you build more bases... Good Terran players dont attack a zerg before they have 3-4bases. Watch GSL and learn instead of playing a tank/marine 2base push style that NOONE is playing anymore, because it has been completly figuered out.
Also: If zerg goes for mutalisks, he can't mass expand or tech hard... It's like saying: But if I go mass mutalisks and terran just goes standard tank marine + mass Thors I lose. It's simply not possible... Stop with your silver league "then zerg can just immidiatly do X" bullshit. Zerg needs ressources as well. Zerg needs army as well. Zerg needs teching as well. Zerg needs time as well. Just because we can do some stuff faster with larva mechanics, doesn't mean that zerg can go from 2base mutas to 5base broodlords in 5mins...
lso, what better counters do you want? Mutas get already countered by most ground to air units pretty well, which leaves us with air units... So the other races should just get a unit that is a more mobile air fighter that is easy to mass? Because then you just designed a unit that is better than the mutalisk and plays like the mutalisk... tell me how this is not "even more imba"
Unit with anti-air splash, near-muta movement speed and decent (6-7) range "even more imba"? Muta AtA effectiveness is only small part of it's general usefulness, basically 90% of muta targets are ground stuff. How unit with decent anti-muta attack can be "even more imba"?[/QUOTE]
phoenix? Phoenix counter mutas incredibly well, the thing is that protoss can't afford them now. Now you can say that Protoss should just get a unit that is better vs mutalisks (f.e with splash and higher damage) and can't lift stuff in return. Well good luck. It will be a dead unit. Zergs won't play mutas against Protoss because it would never make sense and therefore Protoss would never play this unit, because it doesn't have any use apart from killing mutalisks.
Same with Terrans. Also, isn't this the beauty of the game, that there is a diversity for everything. If you want a game in which a race can only make 3-4 of a certain unit and attack with them, else your opponent will just build the hardcounter that kills 10 of those on its own, go and play C&C:RA3. It's a great game, really action and micro intense. But I prefer a game in which I don't lose because my opponent opened with 1 unit that hardcountered my 10first units.
And then when they engage your army and their mutalisks are in the fight while 20 marines are back in your base doing nothing you lose. Stack the mutas up and take 1 turret hit while you 1 shot the turret, not hard to do
Exactly, it is another example of mutas positioning advantage. Even if you have force mathematicaly able to beat mutas, their speed and stacking capabilities are slaughtering it anyway.[/QUOTE]
THAT'S THE IDEA. IF YOU WANT A GAME THAT IS ABOUT WHO HAS THE BETTER 1A COMPLETLY EVEN FORCE, JUST PLAY A MIRROR MATCH-UP. BUT PEOPLE CONSIDER MIRROR MATCH-UPS BORING, SIMPLY BECAUSE BOTH PLAYERS END UP WITH THE SAME ARMY ALL THE TIME.
|
Just to add to the conversation, I suspect that mutas play a big role in exacerbating metagame shifts. Like whenever there is a small shift in the metagame which lets zerg feel safer, mutas turn that little shift into a huge shockwave. Mutas are crazy good when you don't need to worry about being just fucking killed in that you can rip an opponent apart piece by piece and the best he can hope to accomplish is minimizing the damage you can do to him. I actually think that in addition to the increased speedling and infestor usage, I think the warpgate modifications had a hugely detrimental effect on the PvZ metagame in favor of zerg. Not because warpgate all-ins were necessary for protoss to win, but because PvZ, like TvZ, needs the zerg to have a justified fear of just fucking dying in order to keep them under control. If the zerg knows your warpgate all in is going to be late and weak and you don't even want to do it, he can just drone all day and make 15 mutas and you can't do all that much about it.
|
Sup man congrats to your new icon! I was getting tired arguing with that zerg-biased hydra JK
Seriously though there are lots of new ways to defend against mutas compared to BW but just like you say the control group stuff has made mass muta microable in a way that we never saw in BW. Terran NEEDS a MM squad with turret or thor support to be able to defend muta harass (just the same as zerg needs spare sling/bling in base to catch drops if the army is far away from main/expos). The problem is thors are so damn slow and bad by themselves that the number of marines needed to defend 30 mutas is ridiculous. You have to leave two medivacs full of marines at least and that's not counting the turret cost.
Toss do not have neither corsair nor equivalent of this awesome unit (Phoenix don't have splash). Psi Storm is has lower radius, lower casting range, do less damage and has pre-cast delay.
Terran no longer have cheap, spammable goliaths (against magic-boxed mutas goliaths would be FAR better then Thors) and don't have awesome anti-muta Valkyrie. Medics are no more, and Dropships are easy to kill for mutas. there is also no Irradiate...
On top of that Mutas DPS significantly increased (by RoF increase) and Zerg do not have 12 unit selection limit...
In shorter words:
-Mutas are stronger then they were in SC1
-Mutas counters from SC1 are, excluding minor exceptions (turrets), much weaker or removed from game
|
On November 04 2011 21:36 Cibron wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 21:10 Big J wrote:On November 04 2011 21:05 Applesqt wrote:
Mutalisks would be fixed if turrets, cannons and spore colonies were better. An example would be broodwar where mutas because useless if you had 3-4 per base LOL. Turrets and canons are way better now than back in broodwar. Marines are better than they were in broodwar. The difference is that noone could control more than 12mutalisks in broodwar, so mass mutalisk was not playable! Turrets are EXTREMLY good vs mutalisks. Just spread your marines all over your bases like good terrans do and you are fine. Sup man congrats to your new icon! I was getting tired arguing with that zerg-biased hydra JK Seriously though there are lots of new ways to defend against mutas compared to BW but just like you say the control group stuff has made mass muta microable in a way that we never saw in BW. Terran NEEDS a MM squad with turret or thor support to be able to defend muta harass (just the same as zerg needs spare sling/bling in base to catch drops if the army is far away from main/expos). The problem is thors are so damn slow and bad by themselves that the number of marines needed to defend 30 mutas is ridiculous. You have to leave two medivacs full of marines at least and that's not counting the turret cost.
But just watch high level terran play. A lot of times they just play defensive once mutas are out. They scout with hellions and drops and scans BEFORE mutas are out and if mutas are coming. If it is mutas and they see too much eco, they kill the zerg, if they don't they build a third and bunker up on 3bases, because they will be equal. If zerg wants to break that spreadout terran, he needs a ton of gas units, so his mutacount will be low, which you can see by not seeing a lot of mutalisks.
If Zerg continues mass mutaplay against 3-4base terran, there comes the point when terran just has enough tanks to annihalte all zerglings and banelings so fast, that they are pretty much out of the equation, that's why zerg needs to tech up and eco up himself to combat those huge tank/marine/medivac armies. I think this is a very good balance. Basically, both players can't kill each other unless they take a risk (expand faster than they can, cut a techpath like vikings/ghosts to hit before broodlords are out or tech faster than they can), make a mistake (do an unnecessary push, like 10min tank/marine vs standard 2base mutalisks) or outsmart/outmicro their opponent (with mutaharass, drops...)
That's why people love to watch macro TvZ so much. It is the most balanced MU. It doesn't just resolve around allins, both players have options to play active or defensive.
and also thanks
|
I dont think they are overpowered because the gas cost is just right, meaning that to get a significant amount, Z cant make much else. Cost for cost, Marines rip them apart and with the "Goliaths" in HotS it will be even easier.
I think Mutas are a great showcase how to design a harass unit, they can compliment a army but that is generally not their role
|
I dont think they are overpowered because the gas cost is just right, meaning that to get a significant amount, Z cant make much else. Cost for cost, Marines rip them apart and with the "Goliaths" in HotS it will be even easier.
I think Mutas are a great showcase how to design a harass unit, they can compliment a army but that is generally not their role
Once again: Mutas positioning advantage is negating low cost effectiveness completely, and is making them Borderline OP even against their so-called direct counters. Even if marine eat Muta 2vs1, You cannot put 2 marines per 1 muta in each of your bases. You are forced to either split your forces (and lose cost-effectiveness advantage by engaging enemy by much cheaper smaller force), or keep marines in one base (and sacrifice less important expos). As long as your counter is not able to react as fast, as mutas relocate from base to base, you will be always forced to invest much more on defense then Zerg invested on Mutas, even if his mutas are significantly less cost effective then your defenses. As I said, I see 3 solutions:
- mutas speed decrease (-25%?)
- P/T ability/spell able to slow down/immobilize mutas (it will give main forces time to respond)
- P/T units with speed similar to Muta, doing splash against air, with decent range (something between Valkyrie and Corsair, it may be even ground unit)
|
Don't wanna be overalaborating and ranting but I'd be happy to see a good tool against mutas. On the other hand, to me, HotS seems to be about nerfing Terran by giving the other races more debuff and unit steal abilities, while the Terran isn't actually getting anything substantial (I may be wrong, though). Thor => warhound is basically a trade-off and in exchange, the Terran will be left without a 6-supply ground unit, which is not so cool. The super duper mothership-style one-of-a-kind thor will face the same problem the thor is currently facing (which actually aren't so big the way I see it), except more.
Oh well, we just need to wait and see.
|
As a masters/GM (KR/SEA) Protoss player my least favourite builds to deal with from Zerg are muta builds. I find it extremely difficult to take a 3rd and often just end up 2 base allin-ing them. I definitely don't think mutas are OP, if you can scout it early on it's extremely difficult for a Zerg to hold any kind of allin, even with spines. If you let it get to the mid-late game it becomes a nightmare as they constantly expand/macro while keeping you contained with harassment. I also honestly think that it requires a lot more skill to deal with such harassment than to execute.
|
As a masters/GM (KR/SEA) Protoss player my least favourite builds to deal with from Zerg are muta builds. I find it extremely difficult to take a 3rd and often just end up 2 base allin-ing them. I definitely don't think mutas are OP, if you can scout it early on it's extremely difficult for a Zerg to hold any kind of allin, even with spines. If you let it get to the mid-late game it becomes a nightmare as they constantly expand/macro while keeping you contained with harassment. I also honestly think that it requires a lot more skill to deal with such harassment than to execute.
Mutas are not OP, It's just Toss lack of proper counter. If toss could get access to something similar to Corsair (fast movement, AtA splash, decent damage, nice secondary ability), Mutas would be perfectly balanced in PvZ. Also please note, Your psi storm in SC2 is much weaker and easier to evade then it was in SC1. And mutas have better DPS now... and adding 30 mutas to one control group is no longer issue. All these things are making dealing with mutas more problematic, then it should be.
|
On November 04 2011 06:10 Jermstuddog wrote:
@Ballistixz
Being a Zerg player doesn't make you more authoritative on Protoss counters to Muta play unfortunately, so don't try to justify your POV with such irrelevent details.
Anyway, Phoenixs hard counter mutalisks, no question about it. If the numbers are anywhere near close, phoenix always come out on top. That is called a counter. It works fine.
Stalkers generally win vs Mutas in relatively equal numbers as well, considering they cost 1/2 the gas, come at a lower tier and are all-around more versatile units, that sounds good too.
Archons, if given the opportunity to attack more than once, are always cost-effective. Add to that, Archons always kill mutas in 3-4 hits with a large splash depending on upgrades. No problem there.
2 storms can kill a theoretically infinite number of mutas. In particular, when teamed up with any combination of the previously mentioned units, it makes base defense a non-issue.
Cannons cost 0 gas and do better than stalkers in comparison. 1 probe can build infinity of them in rapid succession.
Protoss has no issues with mass mutas other than the fact that 99% of Protoss players have no clue how to respond.
this is not thoerycraft, and the fact that you would throw a random percentage and say "99% of all toss players have no clue on how to respond" just made any kind of legit argument with you pointless. but ill bite anyway.
yes phoenixes are fine. but the fact of the matter is IF U DO NOT OPEN STARGATE YOU CANT JUST MAGICALLY THROW DOWN 2-3 STARGATES TO COUNTER 30+ MUTAS. its not going to happen because by the time u can afford to actually make the stargates to counter that many mutas u have already lost the game. you need to open stargate or coin flip by tech switching to stargate tech off of 2 base. and even if u do then u will get steam rolled by any kind of zerg tech switch. the zerg can tech switch ALOT easier then toss can. not only that but you will be behind in upgrades for the air game. but hey, if u decide to throw down 2-3 stargates to counter my mutas then be my guest, while u try to make the 20-30 or so nixes u need to counter my pack of 30-40 mutas ill be focusing on my ground army and roll u with roach hydra or ultra ling. (or ill just make 5-10 corruptors and suddenly every single one of ur nixes are now useless herp)
Stalkers generally win vs Mutas in relatively equal numbers as well, considering they cost 1/2 the gas, come at a lower tier and are all-around more versatile units, that sounds good too.
no there really not. once u get a critical mass of mutas then the mutas will tear thru stalkers. especially upgraded mutas. stalkers actually suck vs mutas unlike marines. critical mass mutas are extremly good against stalkers especially when supported by lings.
Archons, if given the opportunity to attack more than once, are always cost-effective. Add to that, Archons always kill mutas in 3-4 hits with a large splash depending on upgrades. No problem there.
lol? the way u deal with archons is the same way u deal with thors. magic box and dead. or ignore them altogether and abuse the fact that A) mutas are mobile as fuck and B) archons are IMMOBILE as fuck. u never have to engage archons direcly in the same way u dont have to engage a thor directly. infact archons are better to deal with then a thor because archons have a range of 3 where as thors a range of 10. MUCH easier to deal with and it is not a problem. Mship and archon toilet is instant GG tho and its the only thing to really worry about. but of zerg players there cards right he can make sure u never have the funds or ability to make a M ship with constant muta harass.
2 storms can kill a theoretically infinite number of mutas. In particular, when teamed up with any combination of the previously mentioned units, it makes base defense a non-issue.
sure they can, if you dont know how to micro -_-. u do realize u can dodge storms right? dodge storms untill HT is out of energy=profit? i do it all the time. using storms offensivly is much better then trying to put a HT at each of ur expansions to try and use it defensivly. it never works from my experience.
Cannons cost 0 gas and do better than stalkers in comparison. 1 probe can build infinity of them in rapid succession
this is just a retarded statment seeing as how flocks of mutas kill a cannon in less then 5 seconds. cannons are a non factor when u have enough mutas. and if u waste minerals on trying to mass cannons at all of your bases then more then likely im winning the game. even if u build 3 cannons at even just one of your bases then that is pretty much minerals that u could have used for an expansion or units.
TL;DR archons, storm, and nixes are all fine and dandy counters, but you cant just magically tech switch to them on the fly if you were already going a particular build that didnt involve any of those units. nixes are a great counter if you open stargates, but they suck if you try to play reactionary to mutas by randomly deviating from your initial build to make 2-3 stargates. storms is fine to, if u already have it. but if u try to play reactionary to the mutas it is also bad because you have to make the archives, research storm, and wait for the templarts to even have enough energy to storm. by that time the mutas would have did way more then enough eco damage or sniped the archives to delay storm even longer.
|
There was a game before SC2 where it was pretty normal that Protoss had TONS of Cannons ad each of his expansions... But in SC2 Protoss favors to build useless Zealots from it's excess minerals...
|
On November 04 2011 21:47 Exarian wrote:
....
In shorter words:
-Mutas are stronger then they were in SC1
-Mutas counters from SC1 are, excluding minor exceptions (turrets), much weaker or removed from game
1 muta:
100m/100g
120 Hp
5.9+2+0.7= 8,6dps
Range 3
4 marines
200m/0g
180Hp/220Hp with shield
7*4= 28dps/10.5*4=42dps with stimpack
Range 5
-----
10 mutas:
1000m/1000g
1200Hp
86dps
Range 3
20 marines
1000m/0g
900hp/1100hp with shield
140dps/210dps with stimpack
range 5
Muta upgrades
Ground DPS:
5.9(+0.7)
2(+0.2)
0.7(+0.1)
=+1
Marine upgrades:
+1.2/+1.7 with stimpack
So marines escalates better, if we consider +1/+1 upgrades then:
1 +1/+1 muta vs +1/+1 marines
=7,5 dps
4 +1/+1 marines vs +1/+1 muta=
7*4=28dps/42dps with stimpack
Which means:
a) Marines are even more stronger than they were in SC1
b) False
|
On November 04 2011 21:47 Exarian wrote:Show nested quote +Sup man congrats to your new icon! I was getting tired arguing with that zerg-biased hydra JK
Seriously though there are lots of new ways to defend against mutas compared to BW but just like you say the control group stuff has made mass muta microable in a way that we never saw in BW. Terran NEEDS a MM squad with turret or thor support to be able to defend muta harass (just the same as zerg needs spare sling/bling in base to catch drops if the army is far away from main/expos). The problem is thors are so damn slow and bad by themselves that the number of marines needed to defend 30 mutas is ridiculous. You have to leave two medivacs full of marines at least and that's not counting the turret cost.
Toss do not have neither corsair nor equivalent of this awesome unit (Phoenix don't have splash). Psi Storm is has lower radius, lower casting range, do less damage and has pre-cast delay. Terran no longer have cheap, spammable goliaths (against magic-boxed mutas goliaths would be FAR better then Thors) and don't have awesome anti-muta Valkyrie. Medics are no more, and Dropships are easy to kill for mutas. there is also no Irradiate... On top of that Mutas DPS significantly increased (by RoF increase) and Zerg do not have 12 unit selection limit... In shorter words: -Mutas are stronger then they were in SC1 -Mutas counters from SC1 are, excluding minor exceptions (turrets), much weaker or removed from game
Marines are weaker ?
I don't think you can tweak muta's stats without killing the unit. Muta are only a probleme when massed, such as >30. Turret/Canon do pretty well against muta in low number and blink stalkers/templars do well when you fight high numbers. Ofc you can't 1a your way 
|
@Aborash
2 marines beat 1 muta, yes. But how do you want to put 2 marines per one muta at EACH of your expos? And how do you want to magically teleport your marines between your bases, if you don't split your force?
Once again: Muta strength is it's positioning advantage. Even if cost-wise they are inefficient, in real game they NEVER engage your main forces. They will fly from base to base finding holes in defense, sniping probes and eliminating your split forces. Even if two marines is enough to kill one muta, if you have 5 bases even 5 marines per muta is not enough to survive - since it is only one marine/base... So you basically need 10 marines (2 per base) to feel safe if enemy build 1 muta. And it's main Mutalisk advantage - it is easy to kill in direct engagement, but if Zerg is harassing, you must spend MUCH more on defense then Zerg spend on his mutas.
So:
2 Marines is enough to ATTACK and defeat 1 muta
10 Marines is enough to DEFEND your base and expos from 1 muta...
Marines are weaker ?
If you use Mutas to attack Marines, Marines are stronger then in BW (but mutas also has better DPS)
If you use Marines to protect your bases from mutas, Marines are almost the same as in BW.
|
honestly it's a lot more dynamic with units that are slightly overpowered. gives you the exciting "aw shit" moments when your opponent makes a significant number of them. as a zerg player i absolutely cannot stand marines. they just piss me off like none other. but do i feel like a fucking beast when i take out a whole bunch of them using clever strategy? HELL YESSS. i honestly wouldn't feel the same satisfaction if it were just a hard counter situation and terrans had no way to counter/split/dodge my stuff.
the concept applies just as well to mutas. in low numbers turrets are perfectly fine at dealing against them. it's only when your opponent masses them that the bounce attack becomes significant and obliterates everything. but if your zerg opponent has really put that much into mutas, he's going to melt to marines and (somewhat) to well managed thors. the biggest weakness to mutas is the snail pace at which they destroy buildings. honestly it wouldn't be a bad decision to just straight up MMM and base race. better yet you could lift some buildings first and take them with your army. mass muta can't engage a solid bio ball, so you can base trade with ease. such strategies are exciting and risky, which is exactly the kind of play we should be going for. we need to stop this mentality of "we have no counter" or else we'll end up with a stale game that plays the same every time.
|
On November 04 2011 22:52 Exarian wrote:@Aborash 2 marines beat 1 muta, yes. But how do you want to put 2 marines per one muta at EACH of your expos? And how do you want to magically teleport your marines between your bases, if you don't split your force? Once again: Muta strength is it's positioning advantage. Even if cost-wise they are inefficient, in real game they NEVER engage your main forces. They will fly from base to base finding holes in defense, sniping probes and eliminating your split forces. Even if two marines is enough to kill one muta, if you have 5 bases even 5 marines per muta is not enough to survive - since it is only one marine/base... So you basically need 10 marines (2 per base) to feel safe if enemy build 1 muta. And it's main Mutalisk advantage - it is easy to kill in direct engagement, but if Zerg is harassing, you must spend MUCH more on defense then Zerg spend on his mutas. So: 2 Marines is enough to ATTACK and defeat 1 muta 10 Marines is enough to DEFEND your base and expos from 1 muta... If you use Mutas to attack Marines, Marines are stronger then in BW (but mutas also has better DPS) If you use Marines to protect your bases from mutas, Marines are almost the same as in BW.
So zerglings are OP to? They have every advantage mutas do. Except buildings don't counter mutas.
|
On November 04 2011 22:33 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 06:10 Jermstuddog wrote:
@Ballistixz
Being a Zerg player doesn't make you more authoritative on Protoss counters to Muta play unfortunately, so don't try to justify your POV with such irrelevent details.
Anyway, Phoenixs hard counter mutalisks, no question about it. If the numbers are anywhere near close, phoenix always come out on top. That is called a counter. It works fine.
Stalkers generally win vs Mutas in relatively equal numbers as well, considering they cost 1/2 the gas, come at a lower tier and are all-around more versatile units, that sounds good too.
Archons, if given the opportunity to attack more than once, are always cost-effective. Add to that, Archons always kill mutas in 3-4 hits with a large splash depending on upgrades. No problem there.
2 storms can kill a theoretically infinite number of mutas. In particular, when teamed up with any combination of the previously mentioned units, it makes base defense a non-issue.
Cannons cost 0 gas and do better than stalkers in comparison. 1 probe can build infinity of them in rapid succession.
Protoss has no issues with mass mutas other than the fact that 99% of Protoss players have no clue how to respond. this is not thoerycraft, and the fact that you would throw a random percentage and say "99% of all toss players have no clue on how to respond" just made any kind of legit argument with you pointless. but ill bite anyway. yes phoenixes are fine. but the fact of the matter is IF U DO NOT OPEN STARGATE YOU CANT JUST MAGICALLY THROW DOWN 2-3 STARGATES TO COUNTER 30+ MUTAS. its not going to happen because by the time u can afford to actually make the stargates to counter that many mutas u have already lost the game. you need to open stargate or coin flip by tech switching to stargate tech off of 2 base. and even if u do then u will get steam rolled by any kind of zerg tech switch. the zerg can tech switch ALOT easier then toss can. not only that but you will be behind in upgrades for the air game. but hey, if u decide to throw down 2-3 stargates to counter my mutas then be my guest, while u try to make the 20-30 or so nixes u need to counter my pack of 30-40 mutas ill be focusing on my ground army and roll u with roach hydra or ultra ling. (or ill just make 5-10 corruptors and suddenly every single one of ur nixes are now useless herp) Show nested quote +
Stalkers generally win vs Mutas in relatively equal numbers as well, considering they cost 1/2 the gas, come at a lower tier and are all-around more versatile units, that sounds good too.
no there really not. once u get a critical mass of mutas then the mutas will tear thru stalkers. especially upgraded mutas. stalkers actually suck vs mutas unlike marines. critical mass mutas are extremly good against stalkers especially when supported by lings. Show nested quote +Archons, if given the opportunity to attack more than once, are always cost-effective. Add to that, Archons always kill mutas in 3-4 hits with a large splash depending on upgrades. No problem there. lol? the way u deal with archons is the same way u deal with thors. magic box and dead. or ignore them altogether and abuse the fact that A) mutas are mobile as fuck and B) archons are IMMOBILE as fuck. u never have to engage archons direcly in the same way u dont have to engage a thor directly. infact archons are better to deal with then a thor because archons have a range of 3 where as thors a range of 10. MUCH easier to deal with and it is not a problem. Mship and archon toilet is instant GG tho and its the only thing to really worry about. but of zerg players there cards right he can make sure u never have the funds or ability to make a M ship with constant muta harass. Show nested quote +
2 storms can kill a theoretically infinite number of mutas. In particular, when teamed up with any combination of the previously mentioned units, it makes base defense a non-issue.
sure they can, if you dont know how to micro -_-. u do realize u can dodge storms right? dodge storms untill HT is out of energy=profit? i do it all the time. using storms offensivly is much better then trying to put a HT at each of ur expansions to try and use it defensivly. it never works from my experience. Show nested quote +
Cannons cost 0 gas and do better than stalkers in comparison. 1 probe can build infinity of them in rapid succession
this is just a retarded statment seeing as how flocks of mutas kill a cannon in less then 5 seconds. cannons are a non factor when u have enough mutas. and if u waste minerals on trying to mass cannons at all of your bases then more then likely im winning the game. even if u build 3 cannons at even just one of your bases then that is pretty much minerals that u could have used for an expansion or units. TL;DR archons, storm, and nixes are all fine and dandy counters, but you cant just magically tech switch to them on the fly if you were already going a particular build that didnt involve any of those units. nixes are a great counter if you open stargates, but they suck if you try to play reactionary to mutas by randomly deviating from your initial build to make 2-3 stargates. storms is fine to, if u already have it. but if u try to play reactionary to the mutas it is also bad because you have to make the archives, research storm, and wait for the templarts to even have enough energy to storm. by that time the mutas would have did way more then enough eco damage or sniped the archives to delay storm even longer.
blablabla telling things that are not true blablabla
equal amounts of stalkers always beats equal amounts of mutalisks. Costwise, supplywise, availabilitywise, without blink, without support.
I don't say there isn't a problem with this, because zerglings counter stalkers so well, that protoss needs to spend some gas differently and that the current metagame revolves around protoss doing huge 2base timings, which when they fail set back the stalker count extremly low, which means that they can't deal with mutas properly
And no, you can't throw down 2-3stargates reactively to deal with 30mutas. But Protoss can throw down 2-3stargates to build void rays when they scout a greater spire. So I think Protoss could throw down those stargates to deal with mutas, if they scout them BEFORE numbers get out of hand. But that is probably being blocked again, by protoss not going with the metagame of all the other matchups and forcing out a strategy that expands evenly with their opponent.
PvP, TvP, ZvZ, ZvT, TvT... you name it. In all those MUs, both races play around with nearly even base counts. Protoss don't in PvZ. They rely on power units (namely the colossus and the sentry) and timings to win the ground war. But that backfires when it comes to dealing with air. I'm not saying that this is the players fault. Maybe this is how the game will turn out (though I highly doubt it with the HotS changes). Currently the MU is close to balanced in all tournaments as far as I know. The problem isn't the mutalisk. The problem is the general MU being do or die for Protoss when they are on 2base. Everything that happens after 12mins, is usually only the outcome of protoss failing (mutalisks or straight up losing) or succeeding(getting even on bases or straight up winning) with their allin play.
Thors counter the hell out of mutalisks, everyone who says otherwise has no clue about the game. If you go Mech, you can have 2thors out when 6-7mutas are out. 4thors when 15mutas are out and so on... The Thors will always win that by turret support early, and without turret support later. (magic box is completly denied by higher thor counts)
Archons are pretty much the same in actual combats, though they have less range and therefore aren't so good to defend mobile harassplay. Templars are good as well.
But in the end, it always will come down to stalkers and phoenix. Make those work or die vs mutalisks. (everything else is just like a zerg that doesn't build mass roaches and/or zerglings and dies to gateway pushes, and then claims that stalkers are imba...)
|
On November 04 2011 22:52 Exarian wrote:@Aborash 2 marines beat 1 muta, yes. But how do you want to put 2 marines per one muta at EACH of your expos? And how do you want to magically teleport your marines between your bases, if you don't split your force? Once again: Muta strength is it's positioning advantage. Even if cost-wise they are inefficient, in real game they NEVER engage your main forces. They will fly from base to base finding holes in defense, sniping probes and eliminating your split forces. Even if two marines is enough to kill one muta, if you have 5 bases even 5 marines per muta is not enough to survive - since it is only one marine/base... So you basically need 10 marines (2 per base) to feel safe if enemy build 1 muta. And it's main Mutalisk advantage - it is easy to kill in direct engagement, but if Zerg is harassing, you must spend MUCH more on defense then Zerg spend on his mutas. So: 2 Marines is enough to ATTACK and kill 1 muta 10 Marines is enough to DEFEND FROM 1 muta... If you use Mutas to attack Marines, Marines are stronger then in BW (but mutas also has better DPS) If you use Marines to protect your bases from mutas, Marines are almost the same as in BW.
a) Research upgrades, every point in upgrade, means less marines needs to defend against equal number of mutas
b) You said Z got more bases than T, that means its hard for Z to defend, cause it got more terrain to cover, you can play defensive, trying to hit 200/200, while expanding, or you can try to harrash with drops.
c) if you hit 200/200 with +3/+3 upgrades, you re gonna roflstomp Z, unless he is better at micro than you.
d) if you re near 200/200 and he got a lot of mutas, start dropping towers like notomorrow, to avoid base trading,
e) if he invest too much in mutas, get few thors btw, otherwise, scout and watch what he is massing, and build hard counters.
|
So zerglings are OP to? They have every advantage mutas do. Except buildings don't counter mutas.
1. Zerglings cannot ignore cliffs, If you block the gate, they will not enter base. They cannot attack from every direction.
2. Both Terran and Toss can reduce Zergling mobility (wall-ins, statis fields...)
3. Both Terran and Toss have units outrangeing Lings with good splash
4. On top of that Lings cannot stack...
5. ...And don't have magic-boxing ability negating splash damage
6. Important thing - Infinite mutas can attack target at once. How many lings at once can attack for example Thor/CC? Infinite? No, some lingls will attack, while most of them will run circles around target because of no space.
7. Lings are 1 range GtG only. Mutas are 3 range AtG and and AtA with SPLASH.
So basically Lings don't have most of Mutas advantages, but have many unique disadvantages making them completely inferior in harassment to mutas.
a) Research upgrades, every point in upgrade, means less marines needs to defend against equal number of mutas
b) You said Z got more bases than T, that means its hard for Z to defend, cause it got more terrain to cover, you can play defensive, trying to hit 200/200, while expanding, or you can try to harrash with drops.
c) if you hit 200/200 with +3/+3 upgrades, you re gonna roflstomp Z, unless he is better at micro than you.
d) if you re near 200/200 and he got a lot of mutas, start dropping towers like notomorrow, to avoid base trading,
e) if he invest too much in mutas, get few thors btw, otherwise, scout and watch what he is massing, and build hard counters.
a) Tip: Zerg can make upgrades too.
b) If Zerg go Mutas, you are the one who is defending - unless you want to make base trade.
c) Zerg can Tech up and go 200/200 too. Broodlords are quite effective against T/P...
d) Zerg can make turrets too. And even if he decide to sac his mutas, he can rebuild his army faster then you do.
e) "Watch what is he doing and make counter" apply to zerg player too... And actually zerg is called "reactionary race" for a reason.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
