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ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
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On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is:
-) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes
-) 3-4base vs 2base
-) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers
stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched.
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Canada13407 Posts
On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched.
To be fair to these points:
- its normal for zerg to be a bit ahead in drones
- zerg is normally up a base for at least a little while
- we don't see it much in high level play because not as many PvZs happen in high level play nowadays -- especially not in Korea. And when we do see a PvZ Mutas generally make an appearance from time to time.
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how do protoss players expect to get a buff for mutas/nerf on them without making TvZ more stupid or affecting PvZ?
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On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched.
More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game.
edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest
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On November 05 2011 22:09 oogieogie wrote:
how do protoss players expect to get a buff for mutas/nerf on them without making TvZ more stupid or affecting PvZ?
I'm no Protoss player (Random) But my suggestion would be to make Stalkers upgrade with +1(+1) Per upgrade instead of +1(+0). That would make going mass stalker more viable while being less weak vs Roach switches or the occasional Ultralisk.
And else, Maybe something with Phoenix... Don't know what, or VRs, so the Stargate (Dedicated) tech path becomes more cviable...
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Canada13407 Posts
On November 05 2011 22:59 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 22:09 oogieogie wrote:
how do protoss players expect to get a buff for mutas/nerf on them without making TvZ more stupid or affecting PvZ? I'm no Protoss player (Random) But my suggestion would be to make Stalkers upgrade with +1(+1) Per upgrade instead of +1(+0). That would make going mass stalker more viable while being less weak vs Roach switches or the occasional Ultralisk. And else, Maybe something with Phoenix... Don't know what, or VRs, so the Stargate (Dedicated) tech path becomes more cviable...
+1 range to pheonix would really help with the snap turn mutas killing many pheonixes. Would allow you to actually micro them more effectively. Since mutas are so fast and the accel/deccel on pheonixes is somehwat slow by comparison, a muta flock can turn and use their range 3 (with splash) vs your range 4 to kill a number of pheonixes very very fast.
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On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers
Thats no indicator of skill, buddy. Its simply the way the game works. Ever since SC1, zerg has had to be ahead on bases and worker, to be even. And thats because zerg units have always been fairly inefficient. The problem is, that unlike lings, roaches, and so on, mutas are highly efficient against protoss. So that the usual thinking of "zerg needs an extra base and some extra workers to be even" does not apply.
On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. Yeah right.
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Canada13407 Posts
I just realised. The problem PvZ might be the fact theres no way to force Zerg to use gas on anything other than mutas.
The fact that Zerglings do so well against stalkers and that mutas are strong against stalkers as well may be the problem. In ZvT the zerg has to make banelings (use gas) to deal with marines so they can't make nothing but mutas and lings. Against protoss you can get away making mutas and lings almost exclusively. This is in the midgame of course. Hmmml... the more I think about it the more confused I get about dealing with mutas :/ (as protoss)
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Italy12246 Posts
On November 06 2011 00:06 ZeromuS wrote:
I just realised. The problem PvZ might be the fact theres no way to force Zerg to use gas on anything other than mutas.
The fact that Zerglings do so well against stalkers and that mutas are strong against stalkers as well may be the problem. In ZvT the zerg has to make banelings (use gas) to deal with marines so they can't make nothing but mutas and lings. Against protoss you can get away making mutas and lings almost exclusively. This is in the midgame of course. Hmmml... the more I think about it the more confused I get about dealing with mutas :/ (as protoss)
To me it's just scout like a madman, and the moment you see a spire with no infestation pit and you don't have a colosuss, go balls out and kill him; try to hit the timing right before mutas pop. If the muta pack goes above 15 the only way to win i find is to somehow archon toilet his mutas.
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On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched.
That is because mutas are such a good unit for pinning in the toss. Zerg can just drone so hard behind it. Unless you started making Phoenix before he had muta you can't chase down the mutas, and you're at the mercy of where zerg decides to position their mutas.
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On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest
mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already.
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On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already.
When toss FFEs you can get out muta by 10 minutes with little risk.
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No they are not especially against terran. if you see pro matches not many goes mutas anyways in pvz.
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On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins.
are you speaking from experience?
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On November 06 2011 00:19 Stipulation wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already. When toss FFEs you can get out muta by 10 minutes with little risk.
yeah, the only risk you have is that if protoss goes double stargate or 5-7gate aggression you're dead, but hey np isn't it? and even if he doesn't it means that you have been playing on 2base vs 2base for 10mins with at least 2more to come...
On November 06 2011 00:27 Masq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. are you speaking from experience?
yup. From my own as master zerg, from various streams and tournaments. You can only go mutalisks in 10:30mins from 2base (like against terran), but that is not safe, because Protoss 2base allins >> terran 2base allins.
Yes, IF Protoss goes something tech heavy (colossi, dt), you can do it, but it's a huge gamble, because you can't get a good scout into his base before your lair finishes.
And you definatly can't do it from 3hatch openings, which are the standard openings vs FFE anyways.
If you're facing zergs that go mutas before 12mins frequently in your league, you should just 6gate frequently and you will win most of the time.
The earliest you can start a spire safely in PvZ is 11mins.
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On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already.
No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about.
Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread.
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On November 06 2011 00:46 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already. No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about. Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread.
White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem.
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On November 06 2011 00:48 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 00:46 K3Nyy wrote:On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already. No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about. Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread. White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem.
Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret.
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On November 06 2011 00:51 BlitzerSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 00:48 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 00:46 K3Nyy wrote:On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already. No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about. Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread. White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem. Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret.
Idra lost to hallucinated void rays, still I'm not whining about hallucinated void rays.
what do you want to tell me with that? That Mutalisks are imba because they're available?
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EPT
