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On November 06 2011 02:09 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 02:06 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 06 2011 01:52 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 06 2011 01:41 ZeromuS wrote:On November 06 2011 01:39 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 06 2011 01:33 ZeromuS wrote:On November 06 2011 01:15 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 01:03 Piledriver wrote:On November 06 2011 00:51 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 06 2011 00:48 Big J wrote:
[quote]
White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem. Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret. Even KiwiKaKi did a really early third in both his games vs Morrow in NASL and eventually died to mutas in the second game and to broodlord ling infestor in the first game. I'm just learning to ignore Big J these days. He just parrots his own viewpoints in every single PvZ thread without actually looking at the outcome of the games in which the toss tried to expand before 10 minutes. Can toss expand before 10 mintues? Sure. Does it give him any advantage? 9/10 times it doesnt because he cant pressure the zerg and the zerg take 2-3 extra bases because of passive toss and either outmacro him or just harass the f!@# out of him with mutas because he's too spread out on three bases. Funny enough I think mutas are such a problem in PvZ because we dont have a 100 mineral AA like the turret which is effective in killing mutas. Cannons are pretty bad because of their low firing speed, which lets a flock of mutas quickly wipe it without taking more than 2 hits. Here is thread in which you will find people talking about fast 3rd bases and you will find a lot of examples of games in which a Protoss won a game through that against Zerg. The opening post even mentions explicitly how White-Ra is able to take some damage from a Zerg that goes Mutalisks without getting behind, through the big economical advantages this has over Protoss builds that take their thirds later. [D] PvZ quick 3rd on gateway techhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280293There are 3blue (Protoss) posters in there, who all agree that taking a fast third of relative low tech is quite strong. but you seem to be equating fast protoss third with defends and kills mutalisk based builds. this simply is not necessarily the case. Having 3 bases is nice but large muta balls are still highly problematic. This seems to ignore the core problems in engaging or defending mutalisks as a protoss player. Large muta balls are "highly problematic"? So you're saying allowing a Zerg player to get 3000 gas worth of units isn't going to be problematic? If you open up FFE --> 5-6 gate robo (robo first for obs), you should scout the spire with plenty of time to respond. Minigun recommends doing a 6 gate attack while taking a third and immediately teching to templar. You don't have to kill the Zerg, just kill his third. But most protosses don't care about this and try to kill the zerg, lose all their units, then say it's OP. I know to attack but like Welmu posted earlier im not necessarily referring to a go straight to 30 muta muta ball. but instead a harass with ground army and perhaps a switch to many mutas later on. How are you going to switch to a large muta flock without being open to a HUGE timing window? /shrug You harass with your mutas and when the stalkers arrives you just run back and then come back with a couple of more mutas. And when I come back with more mutas a good protoss has warped in more stalkers, or maybe archons. ....
Ok so what i have more stalkres or maybe an extra archon, you can just fly around pick off a pylon here or there retreat. Take a third then keep making it known that your there and the toss wont ever move out. Hell if he does you will known anyway make 60 zerglings and 10 spines by the time the army gets there you will have wrecked his base be retreating to help the main battle and now stalkers do shit vs zerglings maybe 2/3 archons, to deal with zerglings but the mutalisk have returns and now the zerglings have full surround and zerglings surround kill everything insanely quick. Ok so you army trade but since the zerg took out the protoss base he cant replenish while the zerg quickly makes another round of lings to finish the game and overwhelm the few stragglers the toss has.
I paint this scene perfectly in my head because its happened so often to me
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On November 06 2011 01:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 01:03 Piledriver wrote:On November 06 2011 00:51 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 06 2011 00:48 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 00:46 K3Nyy wrote:On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already. No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about. Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread. White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem. Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret. Even KiwiKaKi did a really early third in both his games vs Morrow in NASL and eventually died to mutas in the second game and to broodlord ling infestor in the first game. I'm just learning to ignore Big J these days. He just parrots his own viewpoints in every single PvZ thread without actually looking at the outcome of the games in which the toss tried to expand before 10 minutes. Can toss expand before 10 mintues? Sure. Does it give him any advantage? 9/10 times it doesnt because he cant pressure the zerg and the zerg take 2-3 extra bases because of passive toss and either outmacro him or just harass the f!@# out of him with mutas because he's too spread out on three bases. Funny enough I think mutas are such a problem in PvZ because we dont have a 100 mineral AA like the turret which is effective in killing mutas. Cannons are pretty bad because of their low firing speed, which lets a flock of mutas quickly wipe it without taking more than 2 hits. Here is thread in which you will find people talking about fast 3rd bases and you will find a lot of examples of games in which a Protoss won a game through that against Zerg. The opening post even mentions explicitly how White-Ra is able to take some damage from a Zerg that goes Mutalisks without getting behind, through the big economical advantages this has over Protoss builds that take their thirds later. [D] PvZ quick 3rd on gateway techhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280293There are 3blue (Protoss) posters in there, who all agree that taking a fast third of relative low tech is quite strong.
I'm one of those blue posters, and mutas are the counter to that strategy. If you're not going to be able to kill Z before spire, then it's better to have taken the third early than late, but you still eventually hit the same problem where Z has 30 mutas and a dozen spine crawlers and you have no way to win because Z just base-races you to death.
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On November 06 2011 02:26 DreamChaser wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 02:09 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 06 2011 02:06 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 06 2011 01:52 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 06 2011 01:41 ZeromuS wrote:On November 06 2011 01:39 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 06 2011 01:33 ZeromuS wrote:On November 06 2011 01:15 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 01:03 Piledriver wrote:On November 06 2011 00:51 BlitzerSC wrote:
[quote]
Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret. Even KiwiKaKi did a really early third in both his games vs Morrow in NASL and eventually died to mutas in the second game and to broodlord ling infestor in the first game. I'm just learning to ignore Big J these days. He just parrots his own viewpoints in every single PvZ thread without actually looking at the outcome of the games in which the toss tried to expand before 10 minutes. Can toss expand before 10 mintues? Sure. Does it give him any advantage? 9/10 times it doesnt because he cant pressure the zerg and the zerg take 2-3 extra bases because of passive toss and either outmacro him or just harass the f!@# out of him with mutas because he's too spread out on three bases. Funny enough I think mutas are such a problem in PvZ because we dont have a 100 mineral AA like the turret which is effective in killing mutas. Cannons are pretty bad because of their low firing speed, which lets a flock of mutas quickly wipe it without taking more than 2 hits. Here is thread in which you will find people talking about fast 3rd bases and you will find a lot of examples of games in which a Protoss won a game through that against Zerg. The opening post even mentions explicitly how White-Ra is able to take some damage from a Zerg that goes Mutalisks without getting behind, through the big economical advantages this has over Protoss builds that take their thirds later. [D] PvZ quick 3rd on gateway techhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280293There are 3blue (Protoss) posters in there, who all agree that taking a fast third of relative low tech is quite strong. but you seem to be equating fast protoss third with defends and kills mutalisk based builds. this simply is not necessarily the case. Having 3 bases is nice but large muta balls are still highly problematic. This seems to ignore the core problems in engaging or defending mutalisks as a protoss player. Large muta balls are "highly problematic"? So you're saying allowing a Zerg player to get 3000 gas worth of units isn't going to be problematic? If you open up FFE --> 5-6 gate robo (robo first for obs), you should scout the spire with plenty of time to respond. Minigun recommends doing a 6 gate attack while taking a third and immediately teching to templar. You don't have to kill the Zerg, just kill his third. But most protosses don't care about this and try to kill the zerg, lose all their units, then say it's OP. I know to attack but like Welmu posted earlier im not necessarily referring to a go straight to 30 muta muta ball. but instead a harass with ground army and perhaps a switch to many mutas later on. How are you going to switch to a large muta flock without being open to a HUGE timing window? /shrug You harass with your mutas and when the stalkers arrives you just run back and then come back with a couple of more mutas. And when I come back with more mutas a good protoss has warped in more stalkers, or maybe archons. .... Ok so what i have more stalkres or maybe an extra archon, you can just fly around pick off a pylon here or there retreat. Take a third then keep making it known that your there and the toss wont ever move out. Hell if he does you will known anyway make 60 zerglings and 10 spines by the time the army gets there you will have wrecked his base be retreating to help the main battle and now stalkers do shit vs zerglings maybe 2/3 archons, to deal with zerglings but the mutalisk have returns and now the zerglings have full surround and zerglings surround kill everything insanely quick. Ok so you army trade but since the zerg took out the protoss base he cant replenish while the zerg quickly makes another round of lings to finish the game and overwhelm the few stragglers the toss has. I paint this scene perfectly in my head because its happened so often to me
I tried to read this and could not.
Please edit with punctuation.
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On November 06 2011 03:01 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 01:15 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 01:03 Piledriver wrote:On November 06 2011 00:51 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 06 2011 00:48 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 00:46 K3Nyy wrote:On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already. No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about. Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread. White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem. Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret. Even KiwiKaKi did a really early third in both his games vs Morrow in NASL and eventually died to mutas in the second game and to broodlord ling infestor in the first game. I'm just learning to ignore Big J these days. He just parrots his own viewpoints in every single PvZ thread without actually looking at the outcome of the games in which the toss tried to expand before 10 minutes. Can toss expand before 10 mintues? Sure. Does it give him any advantage? 9/10 times it doesnt because he cant pressure the zerg and the zerg take 2-3 extra bases because of passive toss and either outmacro him or just harass the f!@# out of him with mutas because he's too spread out on three bases. Funny enough I think mutas are such a problem in PvZ because we dont have a 100 mineral AA like the turret which is effective in killing mutas. Cannons are pretty bad because of their low firing speed, which lets a flock of mutas quickly wipe it without taking more than 2 hits. Here is thread in which you will find people talking about fast 3rd bases and you will find a lot of examples of games in which a Protoss won a game through that against Zerg. The opening post even mentions explicitly how White-Ra is able to take some damage from a Zerg that goes Mutalisks without getting behind, through the big economical advantages this has over Protoss builds that take their thirds later. [D] PvZ quick 3rd on gateway techhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280293There are 3blue (Protoss) posters in there, who all agree that taking a fast third of relative low tech is quite strong. I'm one of those blue posters, and mutas are the counter to that strategy. If you're not going to be able to kill Z before spire, then it's better to have taken the third early than late, but you still eventually hit the same problem where Z has 30 mutas and a dozen spine crawlers and you have no way to win because Z just base-races you to death.
but you're agreeing on going fast third is a better solution than some big aggression play, assuming zerg is capable of defending the attack you make? Because then we can at least agree, that we can exclude those games from this discussion and focus on games in which protoss took a fast third.
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Just my 2cents it seems that most of the units they are adding for terrans is to help with mech play in all 3 MU's or at least it seems to be the goal (whether that ends up happening or not we will need to wait and see). As it stands right now the best way for toss to deal with mech is to either abuse the mobility or go air. With the addition of of the shredder tank combo abusing mobility will be harder. They may mean that air is the choice but with vikings and this new goliath that also might prove to be a challenge. The one unit that was really good at fighting mech was always the carrier. The carrier wasn't seen much because infantry centric play kills it. So even if this tempest fufils the roll of dealing with "OP mutas" then you may end up with a problem in tvp. Like I said we will have to see how this all pans out we aren't even in beta yet. I would of liked possibly a range upgrade at fleet becon tech for the phoenix instead or as someone else suggested a range increase for the archon possibly as an upgrade or even another upgrade for the carrier to say do more against light units. It seems to me that granting upgrades to exsisting units would have been better. I can hardly see it possible that the tempest will end up with a strong ground attack since its air attack is so strong so it won't be able to fufill the same roll a carrier would have fufilled against mech tvp.
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On November 06 2011 04:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 03:01 kcdc wrote:On November 06 2011 01:15 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 01:03 Piledriver wrote:On November 06 2011 00:51 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 06 2011 00:48 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 00:46 K3Nyy wrote:On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:
[quote]
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is:
-) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes
-) 3-4base vs 2base
-) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers
stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already. No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about. Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread. White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem. Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret. Even KiwiKaKi did a really early third in both his games vs Morrow in NASL and eventually died to mutas in the second game and to broodlord ling infestor in the first game. I'm just learning to ignore Big J these days. He just parrots his own viewpoints in every single PvZ thread without actually looking at the outcome of the games in which the toss tried to expand before 10 minutes. Can toss expand before 10 mintues? Sure. Does it give him any advantage? 9/10 times it doesnt because he cant pressure the zerg and the zerg take 2-3 extra bases because of passive toss and either outmacro him or just harass the f!@# out of him with mutas because he's too spread out on three bases. Funny enough I think mutas are such a problem in PvZ because we dont have a 100 mineral AA like the turret which is effective in killing mutas. Cannons are pretty bad because of their low firing speed, which lets a flock of mutas quickly wipe it without taking more than 2 hits. Here is thread in which you will find people talking about fast 3rd bases and you will find a lot of examples of games in which a Protoss won a game through that against Zerg. The opening post even mentions explicitly how White-Ra is able to take some damage from a Zerg that goes Mutalisks without getting behind, through the big economical advantages this has over Protoss builds that take their thirds later. [D] PvZ quick 3rd on gateway techhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280293There are 3blue (Protoss) posters in there, who all agree that taking a fast third of relative low tech is quite strong. I'm one of those blue posters, and mutas are the counter to that strategy. If you're not going to be able to kill Z before spire, then it's better to have taken the third early than late, but you still eventually hit the same problem where Z has 30 mutas and a dozen spine crawlers and you have no way to win because Z just base-races you to death. but you're agreeing on going fast third is a better solution than some big aggression play, assuming zerg is capable of defending the attack you make? Because then we can at least agree, that we can exclude those games from this discussion and focus on games in which protoss took a fast third.
If the zerg is able to defend a protosses "big aggression play" and can also completely abuse said protoss with mutas there's something fundamentally wrong with the game. Getting a fast third isn't a very good solution either because of said mutas.
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On November 06 2011 04:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 03:01 kcdc wrote:On November 06 2011 01:15 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 01:03 Piledriver wrote:On November 06 2011 00:51 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 06 2011 00:48 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 00:46 K3Nyy wrote:On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:
[quote]
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is:
-) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes
-) 3-4base vs 2base
-) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers
stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already. No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about. Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread. White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem. Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret. Even KiwiKaKi did a really early third in both his games vs Morrow in NASL and eventually died to mutas in the second game and to broodlord ling infestor in the first game. I'm just learning to ignore Big J these days. He just parrots his own viewpoints in every single PvZ thread without actually looking at the outcome of the games in which the toss tried to expand before 10 minutes. Can toss expand before 10 mintues? Sure. Does it give him any advantage? 9/10 times it doesnt because he cant pressure the zerg and the zerg take 2-3 extra bases because of passive toss and either outmacro him or just harass the f!@# out of him with mutas because he's too spread out on three bases. Funny enough I think mutas are such a problem in PvZ because we dont have a 100 mineral AA like the turret which is effective in killing mutas. Cannons are pretty bad because of their low firing speed, which lets a flock of mutas quickly wipe it without taking more than 2 hits. Here is thread in which you will find people talking about fast 3rd bases and you will find a lot of examples of games in which a Protoss won a game through that against Zerg. The opening post even mentions explicitly how White-Ra is able to take some damage from a Zerg that goes Mutalisks without getting behind, through the big economical advantages this has over Protoss builds that take their thirds later. [D] PvZ quick 3rd on gateway techhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280293There are 3blue (Protoss) posters in there, who all agree that taking a fast third of relative low tech is quite strong. I'm one of those blue posters, and mutas are the counter to that strategy. If you're not going to be able to kill Z before spire, then it's better to have taken the third early than late, but you still eventually hit the same problem where Z has 30 mutas and a dozen spine crawlers and you have no way to win because Z just base-races you to death. but you're agreeing on going fast third is a better solution than some big aggression play, assuming zerg is capable of defending the attack you make? Because then we can at least agree, that we can exclude those games from this discussion and focus on games in which protoss took a fast third.
Eh, it's not that simple. If P doesn't pressure, Z can go straight from drones to 3 base muta and P loses badly. If P does a 2 base all-in and Z holds, then Z wins with mutas or roaches. What I'm doing right now is 1 gate expand, +2 gates, +forge, then another gate for a 4 gate stalker/sentry push at the 6 gate timing, and I take my third and add a twilight council behind the push. It's not perfect, but it stops Z from going straight to 3 base muta, and it slows droning a bit against macro roach.
But the point isn't that PvZ is unwinnable--it's that mutas specifically are too strong. Protoss players are constantly trying to devise new timing attacks in order to slow the muta ball because if the muta ball ever does get large, then P typically can't win. I would argue that there shouldn't be a composition in the game that is close to unbeatable even for an opponent with full scouting and ample economy. I understand that there is an element of strategy where P just needs to prevent Z from ever getting there, but the game shouldn't be over just because Z managed to find a timing window where Protoss wasn't planning an attack.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36921 Posts
Is it too much to request that we get the valkyrie back? If P gets a splash air unit (Tempest), Z has a splash air unit, why can't we get one too?
Thors are just ....... useless..... cost too much/slow/attack relatively slow/very hard to replenish once you lose them/hard to maintain in your army.........
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On November 06 2011 04:10 TylerThaCreator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 04:07 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 03:01 kcdc wrote:On November 06 2011 01:15 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 01:03 Piledriver wrote:On November 06 2011 00:51 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 06 2011 00:48 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 00:46 K3Nyy wrote:On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:
[quote]
More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game.
edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already. No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about. Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread. White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem. Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret. Even KiwiKaKi did a really early third in both his games vs Morrow in NASL and eventually died to mutas in the second game and to broodlord ling infestor in the first game. I'm just learning to ignore Big J these days. He just parrots his own viewpoints in every single PvZ thread without actually looking at the outcome of the games in which the toss tried to expand before 10 minutes. Can toss expand before 10 mintues? Sure. Does it give him any advantage? 9/10 times it doesnt because he cant pressure the zerg and the zerg take 2-3 extra bases because of passive toss and either outmacro him or just harass the f!@# out of him with mutas because he's too spread out on three bases. Funny enough I think mutas are such a problem in PvZ because we dont have a 100 mineral AA like the turret which is effective in killing mutas. Cannons are pretty bad because of their low firing speed, which lets a flock of mutas quickly wipe it without taking more than 2 hits. Here is thread in which you will find people talking about fast 3rd bases and you will find a lot of examples of games in which a Protoss won a game through that against Zerg. The opening post even mentions explicitly how White-Ra is able to take some damage from a Zerg that goes Mutalisks without getting behind, through the big economical advantages this has over Protoss builds that take their thirds later. [D] PvZ quick 3rd on gateway techhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280293There are 3blue (Protoss) posters in there, who all agree that taking a fast third of relative low tech is quite strong. I'm one of those blue posters, and mutas are the counter to that strategy. If you're not going to be able to kill Z before spire, then it's better to have taken the third early than late, but you still eventually hit the same problem where Z has 30 mutas and a dozen spine crawlers and you have no way to win because Z just base-races you to death. but you're agreeing on going fast third is a better solution than some big aggression play, assuming zerg is capable of defending the attack you make? Because then we can at least agree, that we can exclude those games from this discussion and focus on games in which protoss took a fast third. If the zerg is able to defend a protosses "big aggression play" and can also completely abuse said protoss with mutas there's something fundamentally wrong with the game. Getting a fast third isn't a very good solution either because of said mutas.
Noone is talking about doing this at the same time. If P shows no signs of expoing around 9mins, you know that there is aggression coming, else you're just ahead. When you know that aggression is coming, you can respond, so you hold it. (assuming good players and excluding the fact that protoss still can do a ton of damage, if he can keep zerg in the dark about what is coming and where he attacks) Now Zerg is ahead and can safely tech to mutalisks and yes: now he can abuse the protoss with mutalisks, if protoss didn't blindcounter them, because he is using his eco advantage.
That is why most good protoss players draw back after doing enough damage (even if there is still the possibility to win) and gg'ing if this aggression just fails.
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How has the muta turned from a unit never seen in ZvP for most players, to an overpowered unit? It is still incredibly risky to go mutas and as a transition, it is not nearly as strong.
As for vs T, until I see the day where MVP loses because of mutalisk op, then I might consider mutalisk op. You would expect someone like DRG or Nestea to destroy MVP if the mutalisk were overpowered, considering they are the worlds best Zergs and go muta every game. In actuality, MVp never seems to lose more than turrets to mutas. Vs T, mutas take map control and prevent Terran from expanding like a Zerg (which is what happens vs infestor play). MVP expands a ton anyway and defends every expo with superb multitask and macro. For Plat-mid masters, mutas are a pain to deal with, but after that, I believe it all depends on who the better player is.
I cannot cast too much judgment on PvZ because my knowledge is limited there.
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On November 06 2011 05:15 Seeker wrote:
Is it too much to request that we get the valkyrie back? If P gets a splash air unit (Tempest), Z has a splash air unit, why can't we get one too?
Thors are just ....... useless..... cost too much/slow/attack relatively slow/very hard to replenish once you lose them/hard to maintain in your army.........
Yes. Valkyries are made redundant by Vikings as an air to air unit. Regardless of the splash damage, having two pure AA units in the one race wouldn't be a great idea.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36921 Posts
On November 06 2011 05:30 Praetorial wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 05:15 Seeker wrote:
Is it too much to request that we get the valkyrie back? If P gets a splash air unit (Tempest), Z has a splash air unit, why can't we get one too?
Thors are just ....... useless..... cost too much/slow/attack relatively slow/very hard to replenish once you lose them/hard to maintain in your army......... Yes. Valkyries are made redundant by Vikings as an air to air unit. Regardless of the splash damage, having two pure AA units in the one race wouldn't be a great idea.
What if we remove the viking and replace it with valkyrie?
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On November 06 2011 05:10 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 04:07 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 03:01 kcdc wrote:On November 06 2011 01:15 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 01:03 Piledriver wrote:On November 06 2011 00:51 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 06 2011 00:48 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 00:46 K3Nyy wrote:On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:
[quote]
More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game.
edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already. No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about. Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread. White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem. Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret. Even KiwiKaKi did a really early third in both his games vs Morrow in NASL and eventually died to mutas in the second game and to broodlord ling infestor in the first game. I'm just learning to ignore Big J these days. He just parrots his own viewpoints in every single PvZ thread without actually looking at the outcome of the games in which the toss tried to expand before 10 minutes. Can toss expand before 10 mintues? Sure. Does it give him any advantage? 9/10 times it doesnt because he cant pressure the zerg and the zerg take 2-3 extra bases because of passive toss and either outmacro him or just harass the f!@# out of him with mutas because he's too spread out on three bases. Funny enough I think mutas are such a problem in PvZ because we dont have a 100 mineral AA like the turret which is effective in killing mutas. Cannons are pretty bad because of their low firing speed, which lets a flock of mutas quickly wipe it without taking more than 2 hits. Here is thread in which you will find people talking about fast 3rd bases and you will find a lot of examples of games in which a Protoss won a game through that against Zerg. The opening post even mentions explicitly how White-Ra is able to take some damage from a Zerg that goes Mutalisks without getting behind, through the big economical advantages this has over Protoss builds that take their thirds later. [D] PvZ quick 3rd on gateway techhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280293There are 3blue (Protoss) posters in there, who all agree that taking a fast third of relative low tech is quite strong. I'm one of those blue posters, and mutas are the counter to that strategy. If you're not going to be able to kill Z before spire, then it's better to have taken the third early than late, but you still eventually hit the same problem where Z has 30 mutas and a dozen spine crawlers and you have no way to win because Z just base-races you to death. but you're agreeing on going fast third is a better solution than some big aggression play, assuming zerg is capable of defending the attack you make? Because then we can at least agree, that we can exclude those games from this discussion and focus on games in which protoss took a fast third. Eh, it's not that simple. If P doesn't pressure, Z can go straight from drones to 3 base muta and P loses badly. If P does a 2 base all-in and Z holds, then Z wins with mutas or roaches. What I'm doing right now is 1 gate expand, +2 gates, +forge, then another gate for a 4 gate stalker/sentry push at the 6 gate timing, and I take my third and add a twilight council behind the push. It's not perfect, but it stops Z from going straight to 3 base muta, and it slows droning a bit against macro roach. But the point isn't that PvZ is unwinnable--it's that mutas specifically are too strong. Protoss players are constantly trying to devise new timing attacks in order to slow the muta ball because if the muta ball ever does get large, then P typically can't win. I would argue that there shouldn't be a composition in the game that is close to unbeatable even for an opponent with full scouting and ample economy. I understand that there is an element of strategy where P just needs to prevent Z from ever getting there, but the game shouldn't be over just because Z managed to find a timing window where Protoss wasn't planning an attack.
I can see how big big mutaballs are a problem for Protoss that try to counter them purely with defensive stalker play, but I think there are just so many more possibilities, than just going pure stalkers.
I rather think that Protoss just haven't found a neat style against them right now. Double Stargate can work, but imo it has to be timed very well, else the mutas just deny the phoenix play before it kicks in.
Archons and Templar and Storm and blink are often teched to very fast, so people take to much damage in the transition because they are lacking ressources for defenses etc.
I can't tell you what you should do exactly, I can't tell you if it is balanced or not, but pretty much every game in which I see mutalisks owning Protoss I can just point out huge mistakes by protoss, protoss being completly unprepared and taking too much initial damage or the mutalisks are just blindcountering protoss tech (like zealotheavy play and roboheavy play). So I refuse to say that mutalisks are imba, as long as protoss has units that deal with them cost and supplyefficient, with one of those units even being designed to hunt mutalisks.
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On November 06 2011 05:32 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 05:30 Praetorial wrote:On November 06 2011 05:15 Seeker wrote:
Is it too much to request that we get the valkyrie back? If P gets a splash air unit (Tempest), Z has a splash air unit, why can't we get one too?
Thors are just ....... useless..... cost too much/slow/attack relatively slow/very hard to replenish once you lose them/hard to maintain in your army......... Yes. Valkyries are made redundant by Vikings as an air to air unit. Regardless of the splash damage, having two pure AA units in the one race wouldn't be a great idea. What if we remove the viking and replace it with valkyrie?
Then you are fucked vs protoss (colossi), cuz valks did low single target dmg.
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On November 06 2011 05:15 Seeker wrote:
Is it too much to request that we get the valkyrie back? If P gets a splash air unit (Tempest), Z has a splash air unit, why can't we get one too?
Thors are just ....... useless..... cost too much/slow/attack relatively slow/very hard to replenish once you lose them/hard to maintain in your army.........
Mutalisks don't have real splash. Their damage doesn't grow with the opponents force, assuming the opponents force consists of at least 3units.
Also the way muta damage is being upgraded, the "splash" degrees with each armor upgrade of the opponent, down to the part where 3/3 mutas don't do any damage anymore with the 3rd hit against 3/3 opponents and doing less damage with the 2nd hit, then in unupgraded battles.
Also why do you want a air splash unit anyways? Terran doesn't need one. Valkyries would just suck against broodlords if they were implemented instead of vikings and they wouldn't be any better than thors (which are pretty good if played in pure mech builds, else you don't need them anyhow because marines fill their AA role) in straight up combats with mutalisks. (they would die faster and their damage couldn't be much better costwise, because air units are always worse than ground units in their dps/cost, due to the facts that they can stack, they can only be attacked by certain units and they don't care about terrain)
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The mutalisk makes up for the corruptor :/
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This whole debate reminds me of months ago when zerg just died every game to turtle ---> protoss deathball. Every time there was a zerg crying about balance on TL the default response was "don't let them get that far! If you let the protoss build to deathball then you deserve to lose for playing too passively".. and now the tables are turned. Truthfully there are a lot of options to deal with mutas, the problem is mutalisk retention. I saw in a post above me someone complain about toss having "no way to deal with 30-40 mutas". No one does, except arguably zerg. I think the issue is that a lot of players are trying to play reactively to the zerg, where they should be proactive and force the zerg to play into their hands.
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30-40 Mutas is 3-4 thousand gas. Just saying. 3-4 thousand gas worth of production that can't even win a straight up fight vs low Stalker numbers and an Archon.
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On November 06 2011 06:44 FreudianTrip wrote:
30-40 Mutas is 3-4 thousand gas. Just saying. 3-4 thousand gas worth of production that can't even win a straight up fight vs low Stalker numbers and an Archon.
No single unit should be that strong, when massed. It makes for boring and frustrating gameplay, and ruins esports as a spectators sport.
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On November 06 2011 07:07 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 06:44 FreudianTrip wrote:
30-40 Mutas is 3-4 thousand gas. Just saying. 3-4 thousand gas worth of production that can't even win a straight up fight vs low Stalker numbers and an Archon. No single unit should be that strong, when massed. It makes for boring and frustrating gameplay, and ruins esports as a spectators sport.
Blizzard had shown they don't like massing one unit to win games. A lot of zergs are either outright winning, or gaining a huge edge with mass mutas. Its not imbalanced but it appears blizzard likes to discourage this style of game play. So they're giving Terran a little help - improving the Thor - and a lot of help to Toss.
With Zergs ability to mass produce whatever they want, once you find out Zerg has tech switched to Muta, its often too late to get the required tech, Terran can usually cope cause they have rines anyway, but Toss often just dies. The Muta numbers get so big so fast your constantly playing catchup. There's nothing imbalanced about it, but again it appears Blizzard would like to discourage this behavior or at least give the other two races some help.
I don't think its a big deal. There's going to be a lot of stuff in HOTS to gripe about - for everyone - this doesn't seem to be worth much discussion.
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