EPT[D]Are mutalisks overpowered in WOL?? - Page 49
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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kyriores
Greece178 Posts
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SolidZeal
United States393 Posts
On November 06 2011 06:44 FreudianTrip wrote: 30-40 Mutas is 3-4 thousand gas. Just saying. 3-4 thousand gas worth of production that can't even win a straight up fight vs low Stalker numbers and an Archon. The thing is that all zerg has to do is get to around 12+ mutas, and the protoss becomes virtually unable to move out of his base without inciting a base race. Then suddenly that last 2-3 thousand gas isn't nearly as hard to acquire. If the protoss has blink before the mutas hit, he might not take much damage, but if the zerg is able to hit before that (i've seen it a lot in pro games ) then they do heavy damage and are able to continue the muta buildup. The last time I saw a pro lose going muta, the protoss player had 5-6 phoenix out before the transition and the protoss was already going into twilight. The funny thing is that the phoenix, the anti-air counter, didn't stop the mutas, the phoenix all died. They just did damage and stalled enough that the zerg couldn't build his muta ball fast enough, so that the protoss player could smash his face. I like that mutas are good in PvZ and TvZ, they are fun to watch and to play. I don't think they should be nerfed, but why would you be upset that Blizzard designs a good anti-air unit for protoss, when it is clear that mass muta is extremely strong if the zerg player gets it online. I'd also like to point out that blink is extremely vital in slowing down muta damage and blizzard recently gave zerg 30 seconds of timing where mutas can do damage a lot more effectively. Tempo accounts for a lot in this game. | ||
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Vindicate
United States169 Posts
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IVN
534 Posts
On November 06 2011 08:08 Vindicate wrote: I'm laughing a little bit at the idea that massing units is against Blizzard's intent. I don't feel like finding the video since it's been posted here on TL dozens of times, but I'll quote (I think it's Browder) "The swarm host... gives the zerg a more swarmy feel". The zerg are designed, by nature and intent on the part of Blizzard, to mass-produce units. The units are weak! They HAVE to be produced in great numbers. Beyond that, a Terran has 40+ marines at a given moment EVERY game, a Protoss has 25-30+ stalkers EVERY game, and you're complaining that the zerg mass a unit? The idea was that one of the strengths of the zerg was that they had more units, and could change tech, faster than the other races. I thought the idea was that each race had a distinct advantage in some areas, and weaknesses in others. Stop comparing the races as if they have to be 100% equal in every way. There are hard counters to both stalkers and marines. Just make infestors, FG and lough. Protoss have no hard counter to mutas. Thats the problem. | ||
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BordZ
Australia118 Posts
On November 06 2011 08:16 IVN wrote: There are hard counters to both stalkers and marines. Just make infestors, FG and lough. Protoss have no hard counter to mutas. Thats the problem. Just like zerg never had a counter to the deathball. Heres sometheroy crafting for you, how about gettting armour upgrades as the priority as opposed to attack? Get blink early? Actually scout with more than 1 observer earlier? The point I am trying to make is that this issue has not really been largely explored. I specifically remember mass muta in pvz being common this time last year (well that how I played it anyway). | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On November 06 2011 08:38 BordZ wrote: Just like zerg never had a counter to the deathball. Heres sometheroy crafting for you, how about gettting armour upgrades as the priority as opposed to attack? Get blink early? Actually scout with more than 1 observer earlier? The point I am trying to make is that this issue has not really been largely explored. I specifically remember mass muta in pvz being common this time last year (well that how I played it anyway). The deathball is a complex composition of units. Unlike mass muta, its not just one unit type times 30-40. Thats why there is no "counter". You cant - and you shouldnt be able to - just make one unit and counter a protoss deathball. The counter should be equally complex. But one should be able to counter any mass 1 unit type composition in the game with ease. After all, this is not Command and Conquer. This is fucking STARCRAFT, and I expect the game to reward skill, not unit massing and a-moving. Armor upgrades are even worse vs mutas than att. The problem with mutas as protoss, is that you cant kill them fast enough, or kill enough of them, every time they harass your base. The rate of killing mutas is lower, than the rate of production. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On November 06 2011 08:38 BordZ wrote: Just like zerg never had a counter to the deathball. Heres sometheroy crafting for you, how about gettting armour upgrades as the priority as opposed to attack? Get blink early? Actually scout with more than 1 observer earlier? The point I am trying to make is that this issue has not really been largely explored. I specifically remember mass muta in pvz being common this time last year (well that how I played it anyway). It has been explored to a great degree. Muta rushes get destroyed by 2base timing attacks for the most part. The problem is that now zergs scout better, know how to handle 2 base all-ins, so they prepare for that and transition into spire. If protoss gets caught without blink or double stargate, just 8-10 mutalisks can keep protoss on 2 base forever on most maps. Getting an observer means that you are in a defensive position, and are going robo, both of which suck against mutalisks. Upgrading defense is great....except all the zerg has to do is avoid your invinciball. The attack upgrades are to actually try to shrink the mutalisk ball, not to survive a fight that they would win even against 3/3 mutalisks. Mutalisks are almost always used in a basetrade style against protoss, not as an engagement unit. It's just a mobility and cost effectiveness issue. Blink is more expensive and tech heavy than stim for marines, not to mention that 10 supply of marines deters mutalisks FAR more than 5 stalkers. Also turrets, when compared to cannons, are night and day against mutalisks. One builds quickly and when clustered shuts down all but the largest muta clouds. The other takes significantly longer, is 50% more expensive, and does less damage. Mutalisks are just too strong of a snowball unit against protoss who doesn't open up in a way that allows them to secure a 3rd against it. Maps especially play a big factor in this. See crossfire, where all the 3rds are far away, korean zergs all try to go mutalisks and force base trades. | ||
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DreamChaser
1649 Posts
On November 06 2011 08:38 BordZ wrote: Just like zerg never had a counter to the deathball. Heres sometheroy crafting for you, how about gettting armour upgrades as the priority as opposed to attack? Get blink early? Actually scout with more than 1 observer earlier? The point I am trying to make is that this issue has not really been largely explored. I specifically remember mass muta in pvz being common this time last year (well that how I played it anyway). If you noticed its very rare for protoss players to go deathball style (Void rays/Collosus) the reason? Destiny began popularizing the infestor, and guess what the infestor with some corruptors are the counter to the deathball. You fungal and NP (pre-patch im talking range 9) the voids or collosus and its a free unit. Zergs found a unit that had already existed and used it. There is no protoss unit that hasn't been extensively except Carriers hell even the mothership has more use than building carriers. Also getting armor in PvZ first is useless toss get +1 attack so if the zerg doesn't have +1 armor Zlots>Lings badly . You said get blink early or get an observer earlier. Now you make the problem much more complicated because its not a given every game will me PvZ mass muta's. A build should be tailored to be safe form multiple opposition openings. If you create a build thats dedicated to just stopping mass mutalisk suddenly theres a problem with your build if the opponent goes roach or hydra or infestor. | ||
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Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
Seriously how out numbered are your phoenixes that you're complaining they're not very good? How far behind was your phoenix production to cause that? How long did the Zerg take his geyser, not invest gas into hydralisks, infestors and produce only a few roaches? How much time did you have to get a phoenix to fly over, an observer out, or a hallucination into the zerg's base and spot the spire with its minute and 40 second build time? How long was the zerg banking all that gas without any return of investment that entire time while you sat with your front loaded production on warp gates and didn't pressure? If you got beat by mutalisks you deserved to lose, whether by handling it entirely incorrectly or you were way behind before the zerg player chose to go mutalisks, | ||
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong747 Posts
Instead of removing carrier for the tempest, they should just have a researchable upgrade that gives phoenix a splash damage attack at the fleet beacon - I think it should be quite fair as long as its balanced properly. Or maybe I'm just mad they are taking out carriers without even once trying to make it viable =( | ||
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DreamChaser
1649 Posts
On November 06 2011 09:26 Ziggitz wrote: I can't believe protoss players are complaining that phoenixes aren't good enough anti air againt mutalisks, For 50 extra minerals, less than a quarter of the total cost of a mutalisk, you get more than double dps against them, 5.9 against 18 and 50% more hitpoints, 120 hitpoints against 120 plus 60 shields and 33% more range with a moving shot such that you. Considering you need to get a lair, a spire and have 4 geysers in order to do anything with mutalisks there is zero excuse to being caught off guard. Seriously how out numbered are your phoenixes that you're complaining they're not very good? How far behind was your phoenix production to cause that? How long did the Zerg take his geyser, not invest gas into hydralisks, infestors and produce only a few roaches? How much time did you have to get a phoenix to fly over, an observer out, or a hallucination into the zerg's base and spot the spire with its minute and 40 second build time? How long was the zerg banking all that gas without any return of investment that entire time while you sat with your front loaded production on warp gates and didn't pressure? If you got beat by mutalisks you deserved to lose, whether by handling it entirely incorrectly or you were way behind before the zerg player chose to go mutalisks, The minuet a protoss player scouts spire there are a few choices they can make. 1. Do a timing attack hope you kill the zergs defense before mutalisk 2. You have to respect the possibility of muta harass, begin getting blink and teching to HT 3. Build cannons in the mineral lines 4. Expand Those are the common decisions the toss has to make Now let me tell you about good zerg mechanics, Zergs rushing mutalisk will have more spine crawlers than normal probably at least 4 in a choke. Zerg has map control with speedlings, most zergs have a roach warren built before spire just in case. So the toss player moves out the zergling stationed at the mouth of the toss base tells you this. Ok so instead of making 10 mutalisk you make 15 roaches hold off the attack, resupply quickly with zerglings and proceed to overwhelm the few units toss has warped in. So lets say the toss holds this you kill the toss 3rd or deny it, now you (zerg) can take a 3rd or 4th then get 15 mutalisk. So besides a 2 base timing push can you tell me an effective way to deal with mass mutalisk? Making phoenix is to late unless you open SG and last i checked Phoenix attacks dont bounce to 3 targets. | ||
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Jonas :)
United States511 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 06 2011 10:03 Jonas  wrote:Increase Phoenix range by 1 so that protoss's counter to mutalisks can actually counter them. Removing carriers and adding this stupid unit is just silly phoenix counter mutas already, the question is if there is a way to build enough of them, when you need them. | ||
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TutsiRebel
United States172 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On November 06 2011 10:34 TutsiRebel wrote: the problem isn't that mutas are OP. Mutas cost a TON of money. The problem is that stalker dps vs nonarmored is shit Blizz would never change it and if they did people would flip their shit. 14 flat damage stalkers? My god the world would end and stalkers would do well vs marines and the 1-1-1 since they are ranged and don't need to walk 40 feet while being kited to attack marines. | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
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Ashes
United States362 Posts
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IVN
534 Posts
On November 06 2011 10:42 ZeromuS wrote: Blizz would never change it and if they did people would flip their shit. 14 flat damage stalkers? My god the world would end and stalkers would do well vs marines and the 1-1-1 since they are ranged and don't need to walk 40 feet while being kited to attack marines. 4 shots instead of 5 to kill a marine? I wouldnt call that "well" considering the 1.44 attack speed of the stalker. At best that would be OKish, compared to the current shit DPS. However, 14 flat stalkers would kill zerglings in only 3 shots, instead of 4. Now that would be a much larger buff. 9 shots to kill a muta, instead of the current 13! Yeah, that would be nice. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On November 06 2011 10:54 IVN wrote: 4 shots instead of 5 to kill a marine? I wouldnt call that "well" considering the 1.44 attack speed of the stalker. At best that would be OKish, compared to the current shit DPS. However, 14 flat stalkers would kill zerglings in only 3 shots, instead of 4. Now that would be a much larger buff. 9 shots to kill a muta, instead of the current 13! Yeah, that would be nice. Well they would kill marines in one less one hit if one stalker was attacking, this benefit does stack and it would be more efficient against a lot of stuff like the 1-1-1 when kiting back. Would kill workers faster so they could be more effective as harass units as well. Killing mutas that much faster would help make it harder for zergs to attack and then leave without losing many units at all. | ||
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