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On November 06 2011 21:00 Tef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 20:54 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 06 2011 18:24 Flonomenalz wrote:
If mutas are OP why isn't every zerg going muta ling base trade zvp?
because the decision to go for a baserace lies completely with the protoss. I would have to say that it is because any 6 or 7 gate can deal with any kind of mutalisk timing. So unless Protoss is totally unaware of what zerg is doing and rushes for colossus it should be OK for Protoss.
could be, was just reacting to the quoted statement. I meant it normally is the protoss that gets the baserace ball rolling by moving out.
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Make it so that a phoenix can lift a friendly archon, and pull it ahead of him, thus the archon could spalsh all over the mutas' face.
To make it balanced, i would make so that the phoenix cannot shot while holding an archon !
This way protoss could finally morph archons inside his base and dont has to destroy the core at the entrance !
+ Show Spoiler +
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stalkers shouldn't be good against any unit, that would be like a marauder doing 15+5 damage, poor zealots i would say. I wonder why no one accepts that sentries are the muta conter in a straight up battle, u use stalkers to kite the mutas to prevent damage until the sentrys arrive and chase them of. Until you reached anti muta tech. (+2 attack or blink or archons).
And mutas never force hydras in zvz, you get hydras to do some extra damage in a roach only battle. Mutas force queens because one queen adds long range anti air and is worth 3.x reproduced roaches in battle thanks to transfuse + a bit of tank. Since t2 is needed anyway mobility is not a problem for the queen, might give the opponent preparation time but he can't do anything since he wasted ressources in mutas  .
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Canada13389 Posts
On November 06 2011 13:43 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 12:28 IVN wrote:On November 06 2011 12:20 Ziggitz wrote:On November 06 2011 11:40 ZeromuS wrote:On November 06 2011 11:33 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 11:03 ZeromuS wrote:On November 06 2011 10:54 IVN wrote:On November 06 2011 10:42 ZeromuS wrote:On November 06 2011 10:34 TutsiRebel wrote:
the problem isn't that mutas are OP. Mutas cost a TON of money. The problem is that stalker dps vs nonarmored is shit Blizz would never change it and if they did people would flip their shit. 14 flat damage stalkers? My god the world would end and stalkers would do well vs marines and the 1-1-1 since they are ranged and don't need to walk 40 feet while being kited to attack marines. 4 shots instead of 5 to kill a marine? I wouldnt call that "well" considering the 1.44 attack speed of the stalker. At best that would be OKish, compared to the current shit DPS. However, 14 flat stalkers would kill zerglings in only 3 shots, instead of 4. Now that would be a much larger buff. 9 shots to kill a muta, instead of the current 13! Yeah, that would be nice. Well they would kill marines in one less one hit if one stalker was attacking, this benefit does stack and it would be more efficient against a lot of stuff like the 1-1-1 when kiting back. Would kill workers faster so they could be more effective as harass units as well. Killing mutas that much faster would help make it harder for zergs to attack and then leave without losing many units at all. yeah, or we just give the colossus 1000range so you don't have to move out to attack, or maybe give some other unit some insane buff. Of course, zergs would need some insane buff then as well, so why not make zerglings free? Yeah that would be a funny game, if every unit would just do well against everything and was imba as shit. Hey and to make it even funnier, I think there should be bots that control units for everyone, so people don't have to control stuff anymore... Guys, do the math... +3damage doesn't just mean it deals more damage, it means the other units die faster, so you're unit recieves less damage. It means due to stalkers being a ranged unit, this will be an exponential buff for larger stalkerballs. It will mean that timings like 4gate and 6gate, blinkrushes that are extremly stalker heavy and are usually fought with marines and zerglings will be extremly more powerful. Like 1.5times as strong as right now... Doesn't need to get as high as 14. But think about how improving the vs. light in any way would help a lot. Even 12 vs light would be a huge improvement and would make retaining mutas more difficult. Part of the problem I feel is its very easy for mutas to be retained in larger numbers against protoss in comparison to vs. Terran. Smaller numbers of stalkers could defend bases so that you can move out with some army to attack the zerg or pressure back. It wouldn't impact armoured units at all so marauders, bunkered marines would still be very good to hold gate pushes. It would completely break ZvP as protoss would essentially be able to perform the equivalent of a +3 or +4 ground weapons 7 gate blink stalker all in which would be unstoppable. He is proposing a higher base dmg. vs armored would still be 14. Meaning spines and roaches would not be affected at all. I wouldn't mind some small change, but with every step that makes the stalker more universal, there would have to be small nerfs to specific counters (the colossus and the immortal come to my mind). Because right now, stalkerbased compositions (so the stalker is the main unit, zealots and sentries) can already hold their ground decently vs most units that are rather good on the paper vs stalkers (like roaches and zerglings; marines and marauders). And after going those lowtech defensive compositions, protoss just has to add very few (of course very expensive) units, to turn this army into a killerarmy against those stalkercounters. So the stalker needing less support, means that the stalker should only have weaker support available. To be completly honest, I would really like such a tweaking, as I think this game is too much based on hardcounters. Especially Protoss MUs could need a little more elements of stable compositions ("guess what, I have a colossus and now your whole hydra/marine army is worthless", "you're relying on sentries? tell that to my infestors/ghosts") and interesting unit interactions (like marine splitting vs banelings, magic boxes vs thors... lol I'm already stuck... this whole game needs more such interesting, skillbased stuff and less composition/BO losses)
Please note that having some stalkers mixed in with zealot sentry is good because its a well rounded unit composition. You can't go pure stalkers or blink stalkers against terran and rarely is it effective against Zerg. This is it a level where macro begins to mean less - masters and higher. Liquid`Tyler lost to a low masters terran on EU yesterday trying to go pure blink stalkers with an obs for detection as simply one example.
The reason stalkers do well against ground with sentry support is because the sentry can forcefield and because zealots help to make up for some of the fragility of the stalker by being killed first. Against mutalisks sentries can't forcefield and zealots arent a priority to attack and as such don't tank any damage from mutalisks. The fragility of the stalker becomes more clear in this case and the low dps to light makes it more problematic.
Ok, don't give them flat 14. Give them 12 then. It will only affect how they scale vs hydras and mutalisks. One less stalker shot for a hydra and 3 less for a mutalisk. 10 shots to kill mutas is way better than 13 shots.
On November 06 2011 21:18 FeyFey wrote:stalkers shouldn't be good against any unit, that would be like a marauder doing 15+5 damage, poor zealots i would say. I wonder why no one accepts that sentries are the muta conter in a straight up battle, u use stalkers to kite the mutas to prevent damage until the sentrys arrive and chase them of. Until you reached anti muta tech. (+2 attack or blink or archons). And mutas never force hydras in zvz, you get hydras to do some extra damage in a roach only battle. Mutas force queens because one queen adds long range anti air and is worth 3.x reproduced roaches in battle thanks to transfuse + a bit of tank. Since t2 is needed anyway mobility is not a problem for the queen, might give the opponent preparation time but he can't do anything since he wasted ressources in mutas .
Look I'm sorry but thats wrong. With regards to protoss sentries are super slow, they have less hp than a stalker and they have the same dps. Why would I want more fragile sentries to be a muta fighting army? Guardian shield is nice but they aren't enough to really defend my base. Stalkers aren't mobile enough to go from base to base to base in one big ball. This means I need a scaling amount of them at each base to help defend and scare off mutas. If I have less stalkers than mutas then the mutas can usually clean up my stalkers and completely shut down a base.
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Late game mutas vs toss can be difficult. I think they're adding more of an option that if you go stargate tech you should have a better counter than phoenixs. It's hard to change the Phoenix as it is without taking roles from it otherwise it could become too powerful.I think they know a few mutas are balanced, but mass muta is completely different.
Warhound is just there to stop marines being the backbone as much. Making sure tier 1 isn't dominating matchups as much I think. Considering their cost, you won't get masses of them but it'll be marine-warhound-tank play instead of just marine-tank.
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i think muta's are really good against toss. and you have to be really good to defend against them without phoenix. I always open stargate vs Z because I feel like my control isn't good enough to beat good muta play without phoenix, even though i'm a high master player.
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On November 06 2011 21:32 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 13:43 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 12:28 IVN wrote:On November 06 2011 12:20 Ziggitz wrote:On November 06 2011 11:40 ZeromuS wrote:On November 06 2011 11:33 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 11:03 ZeromuS wrote:On November 06 2011 10:54 IVN wrote:On November 06 2011 10:42 ZeromuS wrote:On November 06 2011 10:34 TutsiRebel wrote:
the problem isn't that mutas are OP. Mutas cost a TON of money. The problem is that stalker dps vs nonarmored is shit Blizz would never change it and if they did people would flip their shit. 14 flat damage stalkers? My god the world would end and stalkers would do well vs marines and the 1-1-1 since they are ranged and don't need to walk 40 feet while being kited to attack marines. 4 shots instead of 5 to kill a marine? I wouldnt call that "well" considering the 1.44 attack speed of the stalker. At best that would be OKish, compared to the current shit DPS. However, 14 flat stalkers would kill zerglings in only 3 shots, instead of 4. Now that would be a much larger buff. 9 shots to kill a muta, instead of the current 13! Yeah, that would be nice. Well they would kill marines in one less one hit if one stalker was attacking, this benefit does stack and it would be more efficient against a lot of stuff like the 1-1-1 when kiting back. Would kill workers faster so they could be more effective as harass units as well. Killing mutas that much faster would help make it harder for zergs to attack and then leave without losing many units at all. yeah, or we just give the colossus 1000range so you don't have to move out to attack, or maybe give some other unit some insane buff. Of course, zergs would need some insane buff then as well, so why not make zerglings free? Yeah that would be a funny game, if every unit would just do well against everything and was imba as shit. Hey and to make it even funnier, I think there should be bots that control units for everyone, so people don't have to control stuff anymore... Guys, do the math... +3damage doesn't just mean it deals more damage, it means the other units die faster, so you're unit recieves less damage. It means due to stalkers being a ranged unit, this will be an exponential buff for larger stalkerballs. It will mean that timings like 4gate and 6gate, blinkrushes that are extremly stalker heavy and are usually fought with marines and zerglings will be extremly more powerful. Like 1.5times as strong as right now... Doesn't need to get as high as 14. But think about how improving the vs. light in any way would help a lot. Even 12 vs light would be a huge improvement and would make retaining mutas more difficult. Part of the problem I feel is its very easy for mutas to be retained in larger numbers against protoss in comparison to vs. Terran. Smaller numbers of stalkers could defend bases so that you can move out with some army to attack the zerg or pressure back. It wouldn't impact armoured units at all so marauders, bunkered marines would still be very good to hold gate pushes. It would completely break ZvP as protoss would essentially be able to perform the equivalent of a +3 or +4 ground weapons 7 gate blink stalker all in which would be unstoppable. He is proposing a higher base dmg. vs armored would still be 14. Meaning spines and roaches would not be affected at all. I wouldn't mind some small change, but with every step that makes the stalker more universal, there would have to be small nerfs to specific counters (the colossus and the immortal come to my mind). Because right now, stalkerbased compositions (so the stalker is the main unit, zealots and sentries) can already hold their ground decently vs most units that are rather good on the paper vs stalkers (like roaches and zerglings; marines and marauders). And after going those lowtech defensive compositions, protoss just has to add very few (of course very expensive) units, to turn this army into a killerarmy against those stalkercounters. So the stalker needing less support, means that the stalker should only have weaker support available. To be completly honest, I would really like such a tweaking, as I think this game is too much based on hardcounters. Especially Protoss MUs could need a little more elements of stable compositions ("guess what, I have a colossus and now your whole hydra/marine army is worthless", "you're relying on sentries? tell that to my infestors/ghosts") and interesting unit interactions (like marine splitting vs banelings, magic boxes vs thors... lol I'm already stuck... this whole game needs more such interesting, skillbased stuff and less composition/BO losses) Please note that having some stalkers mixed in with zealot sentry is good because its a well rounded unit composition. You can't go pure stalkers or blink stalkers against terran and rarely is it effective against Zerg. This is it a level where macro begins to mean less - masters and higher. Liquid`Tyler lost to a low masters terran on EU yesterday trying to go pure blink stalkers with an obs for detection as simply one example. The reason stalkers do well against ground with sentry support is because the sentry can forcefield and because zealots help to make up for some of the fragility of the stalker by being killed first. Against mutalisks sentries can't forcefield and zealots arent a priority to attack and as such don't tank any damage from mutalisks. The fragility of the stalker becomes more clear in this case and the low dps to light makes it more problematic. Ok, don't give them flat 14. Give them 12 then. It will only affect how they scale vs hydras and mutalisks. One less stalker shot for a hydra and 3 less for a mutalisk. 10 shots to kill mutas is way better than 13 shots. Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 21:18 FeyFey wrote:stalkers shouldn't be good against any unit, that would be like a marauder doing 15+5 damage, poor zealots i would say. I wonder why no one accepts that sentries are the muta conter in a straight up battle, u use stalkers to kite the mutas to prevent damage until the sentrys arrive and chase them of. Until you reached anti muta tech. (+2 attack or blink or archons). And mutas never force hydras in zvz, you get hydras to do some extra damage in a roach only battle. Mutas force queens because one queen adds long range anti air and is worth 3.x reproduced roaches in battle thanks to transfuse + a bit of tank. Since t2 is needed anyway mobility is not a problem for the queen, might give the opponent preparation time but he can't do anything since he wasted ressources in mutas . Look I'm sorry but thats wrong. With regards to protoss sentries are super slow, they have less hp than a stalker and they have the same dps. Why would I want more fragile sentries to be a muta fighting army? Guardian shield is nice but they aren't enough to really defend my base. Stalkers aren't mobile enough to go from base to base to base in one big ball. This means I need a scaling amount of them at each base to help defend and scare off mutas. If I have less stalkers than mutas then the mutas can usually clean up my stalkers and completely shut down a base.
One thing I will say is that guardian shield is excellent aganist mutas if they actually engage. having a couple of sentries mixed in does greatly reduce the number of stalkers required to win a head on fight vs mutas. But then I suppose it is not usually about winning a head on fight.
As for all the people saying to just win with a 7 gate: I dont want to rely on my opponent making poor decisons to win games. As such, I want my third operational by the 12 minute mark. That greatly reduces the potential for a game-ending attack as I will want to put down a nexus, 2 pylons and probably 3 or more cannons at 10 minutes, leaving me short on minerals to attack with.
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The problem is stalker's ground to air attack is shitty. It's not a dragoon. That's all.
Or they could revert the damage the sentry does.
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Canada13389 Posts
On November 06 2011 21:50 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 21:32 ZeromuS wrote:On November 06 2011 13:43 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 12:28 IVN wrote:On November 06 2011 12:20 Ziggitz wrote:On November 06 2011 11:40 ZeromuS wrote:On November 06 2011 11:33 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 11:03 ZeromuS wrote:On November 06 2011 10:54 IVN wrote:On November 06 2011 10:42 ZeromuS wrote:
[quote]
Blizz would never change it and if they did people would flip their shit. 14 flat damage stalkers? My god the world would end and stalkers would do well vs marines and the 1-1-1 since they are ranged and don't need to walk 40 feet while being kited to attack marines. 4 shots instead of 5 to kill a marine? I wouldnt call that "well" considering the 1.44 attack speed of the stalker. At best that would be OKish, compared to the current shit DPS. However, 14 flat stalkers would kill zerglings in only 3 shots, instead of 4. Now that would be a much larger buff. 9 shots to kill a muta, instead of the current 13! Yeah, that would be nice. Well they would kill marines in one less one hit if one stalker was attacking, this benefit does stack and it would be more efficient against a lot of stuff like the 1-1-1 when kiting back. Would kill workers faster so they could be more effective as harass units as well. Killing mutas that much faster would help make it harder for zergs to attack and then leave without losing many units at all. yeah, or we just give the colossus 1000range so you don't have to move out to attack, or maybe give some other unit some insane buff. Of course, zergs would need some insane buff then as well, so why not make zerglings free? Yeah that would be a funny game, if every unit would just do well against everything and was imba as shit. Hey and to make it even funnier, I think there should be bots that control units for everyone, so people don't have to control stuff anymore... Guys, do the math... +3damage doesn't just mean it deals more damage, it means the other units die faster, so you're unit recieves less damage. It means due to stalkers being a ranged unit, this will be an exponential buff for larger stalkerballs. It will mean that timings like 4gate and 6gate, blinkrushes that are extremly stalker heavy and are usually fought with marines and zerglings will be extremly more powerful. Like 1.5times as strong as right now... Doesn't need to get as high as 14. But think about how improving the vs. light in any way would help a lot. Even 12 vs light would be a huge improvement and would make retaining mutas more difficult. Part of the problem I feel is its very easy for mutas to be retained in larger numbers against protoss in comparison to vs. Terran. Smaller numbers of stalkers could defend bases so that you can move out with some army to attack the zerg or pressure back. It wouldn't impact armoured units at all so marauders, bunkered marines would still be very good to hold gate pushes. It would completely break ZvP as protoss would essentially be able to perform the equivalent of a +3 or +4 ground weapons 7 gate blink stalker all in which would be unstoppable. He is proposing a higher base dmg. vs armored would still be 14. Meaning spines and roaches would not be affected at all. I wouldn't mind some small change, but with every step that makes the stalker more universal, there would have to be small nerfs to specific counters (the colossus and the immortal come to my mind). Because right now, stalkerbased compositions (so the stalker is the main unit, zealots and sentries) can already hold their ground decently vs most units that are rather good on the paper vs stalkers (like roaches and zerglings; marines and marauders). And after going those lowtech defensive compositions, protoss just has to add very few (of course very expensive) units, to turn this army into a killerarmy against those stalkercounters. So the stalker needing less support, means that the stalker should only have weaker support available. To be completly honest, I would really like such a tweaking, as I think this game is too much based on hardcounters. Especially Protoss MUs could need a little more elements of stable compositions ("guess what, I have a colossus and now your whole hydra/marine army is worthless", "you're relying on sentries? tell that to my infestors/ghosts") and interesting unit interactions (like marine splitting vs banelings, magic boxes vs thors... lol I'm already stuck... this whole game needs more such interesting, skillbased stuff and less composition/BO losses) Please note that having some stalkers mixed in with zealot sentry is good because its a well rounded unit composition. You can't go pure stalkers or blink stalkers against terran and rarely is it effective against Zerg. This is it a level where macro begins to mean less - masters and higher. Liquid`Tyler lost to a low masters terran on EU yesterday trying to go pure blink stalkers with an obs for detection as simply one example. The reason stalkers do well against ground with sentry support is because the sentry can forcefield and because zealots help to make up for some of the fragility of the stalker by being killed first. Against mutalisks sentries can't forcefield and zealots arent a priority to attack and as such don't tank any damage from mutalisks. The fragility of the stalker becomes more clear in this case and the low dps to light makes it more problematic. Ok, don't give them flat 14. Give them 12 then. It will only affect how they scale vs hydras and mutalisks. One less stalker shot for a hydra and 3 less for a mutalisk. 10 shots to kill mutas is way better than 13 shots. On November 06 2011 21:18 FeyFey wrote:stalkers shouldn't be good against any unit, that would be like a marauder doing 15+5 damage, poor zealots i would say. I wonder why no one accepts that sentries are the muta conter in a straight up battle, u use stalkers to kite the mutas to prevent damage until the sentrys arrive and chase them of. Until you reached anti muta tech. (+2 attack or blink or archons). And mutas never force hydras in zvz, you get hydras to do some extra damage in a roach only battle. Mutas force queens because one queen adds long range anti air and is worth 3.x reproduced roaches in battle thanks to transfuse + a bit of tank. Since t2 is needed anyway mobility is not a problem for the queen, might give the opponent preparation time but he can't do anything since he wasted ressources in mutas . Look I'm sorry but thats wrong. With regards to protoss sentries are super slow, they have less hp than a stalker and they have the same dps. Why would I want more fragile sentries to be a muta fighting army? Guardian shield is nice but they aren't enough to really defend my base. Stalkers aren't mobile enough to go from base to base to base in one big ball. This means I need a scaling amount of them at each base to help defend and scare off mutas. If I have less stalkers than mutas then the mutas can usually clean up my stalkers and completely shut down a base. One thing I will say is that guardian shield is excellent aganist mutas if they actually engage. having a couple of sentries mixed in does greatly reduce the number of stalkers required to win a head on fight vs mutas. But then I suppose it is not usually about winning a head on fight. As for all the people saying to just win with a 7 gate: I dont want to rely on my opponent making poor decisons to win games. As such, I want my third operational by the 12 minute mark. That greatly reduces the potential for a game-ending attack as I will want to put down a nexus, 2 pylons and probably 3 or more cannons at 10 minutes, leaving me short on minerals to attack with.
We haven't been discussing straight engagements tbh. Just the harassment mainly and any straight up fight woes come from having to deal with 40-50 muta ball engagements.
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Stalkers dps is bad, especially vs light.
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well Mutas may not be OP in general, but Stalkers suck hard vs. Light Air
which makes Mutas a very strong tech in PvZ on most maps.
Same Problem occurs in PvP when on play goes Phoenix, Phoenix unlike Mutas have only limited harass potential.
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Here is my fear as a Zerg ....
ZvT pretty balanced with Mutas
ZvP Mutas become Imba .... Mutas get nerfed .... screws up ZvT
I don't know if ZvP Mutas are OP or not but right now I dont want to use them ... feels so gimmicky
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On November 07 2011 00:56 ToguRo wrote:
Here is my fear as a Zerg ....
ZvT pretty balanced with Mutas
ZvP Mutas become Imba .... Mutas get nerfed .... screws up ZvT
I don't know if ZvP Mutas are OP or not but right now I dont want to use them ... feels so gimmicky
Mutas won't get nerfed. If anything, Protoss gets a buff, but I doubt that. There are some very good high level examples of how to deal with 2base and 3base mutaplay as Protoss, so I'm pretty sure 2weeks from now mutalisks won't have those huge impacts on the proscene anymore...
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With more food going towards warhounds to be able to deal with mutas(I would assume you need more warhounds to be equivalent to 1 thor), wouldn't that mean there would be less marines in their army, therefore making the marine threat slightly less which would make mutas better when evading warhounds but worse fighting head on?
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On November 07 2011 01:29 FragRaptor wrote:
With more food going towards warhounds to be able to deal with mutas(I would assume you need more warhounds to be equivalent to 1 thor), wouldn't that mean there would be less marines in their army, therefore making the marine threat slightly less which would make mutas better when evading warhounds but worse fighting head on?
hardly anyone is going marine and thor at once in TvZ now... The warhound should make it easier for mech to deal with mutas, that has nothing to do with biomech builds. Biomech is already always on the edge of just having enough tanks. If you want to cut more tanks for even more anti air, you can't win the ground fight anymore.
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On November 07 2011 00:56 ToguRo wrote:
Here is my fear as a Zerg ....
ZvT pretty balanced with Mutas
ZvP Mutas become Imba .... Mutas get nerfed .... screws up ZvT
I don't know if ZvP Mutas are OP or not but right now I dont want to use them ... feels so gimmicky
I agreee mutas are fine in ZvT. In ZvP they're pretty tough, really, you zergs should try playing against them as toss sometime. Corsair-type splash for phoenixes would be a nice way of helping phoenixes to counter large groups of mutas.
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Every zergs are going mass muta against me on every map, most of the time it ends up in a base trade.
Im a master level protoss player and im sad.
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the basic problem is unlimited multiselection. some unit types (not only mutas) get OP when massed. In BW the multi-selection limit of 12 units nerfed mass-one-unit somewhat, as you could not control a ball that effectively. A muta ling player mostly just controls 2 "super units": his ling ball and his muta ball.
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On October 25 2011 18:28 Let it Raine wrote:
mutas in zvp right now
op vs terrible protoss players
good vs mediocre toss players
terrible vs good toss players
they go from good unit to: "all i can do now is base race and hope he doesnt bring probes + have money banked"
protoss can make extremely cost efficient compositions vs any zerg army comp. the tempest scares me even more, will it even be possible to stop a maxed protoss army x.x
you clearly haven't seen the viper and new ultra upgrade buddy, never fear, blizzards taking care of you
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Mutas are not OP in general.People just started to realize that mutas allow you to gain map control over toss and the basically taking the map with expansion and forcing toss to go mass stalkers or phoenixes.Mutas are also great at base trading scenarios since they have better mobility than the toss deathballs.
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EPT
