|
1) That would make the mutas pretty crappy as they probably couldn't get away from stimmed marines
2) Basically the infestor
3) Phoenix
4) Thor
1) It will force Zerg to take care of Marines first. It is not a problem since Infestor/Baneling do wonders... and there is no good reason to not force Zerg to mix units...
2) T/P do not have Infestor.
3) Phoenix has no splash. Phoenix is crap compared to Corsair. 3 Corsairs were able to counter near unlimited number of mutas in reasonable time.
4) Magic box is negating thor splash - there is no way to counter 30+ magicboxed mutas with 2 Thors, so it is not balanced.
|
On November 07 2011 05:23 Exarian wrote:Show nested quote +
1) That would make the mutas pretty crappy as they probably couldn't get away from stimmed marines
2) Basically the infestor
3) Phoenix
4) Thor
1) It will force Zerg to take care of Marines first. It is not a problem since Infestor/Baneling do wonders... and there is no good reason to not force Zerg to mix units... 2) T/P do not have Infestor. 3) Phoenix has no splash. Phoenix is crap compared to Corsair. 3 Corsairs were able to counter near unlimited number of mutas in reasonable time. 4) Magic box is negating thor splash - there is no way to counter 30+ magicboxed mutas with 2 Thors, so it is not balanced.
Read your own arguments please.. they do not make any sense.
1) Zerg should have to mix units,
4) 2 Thors (600/400) doesn't counter 30+ mutas (3000+/3000+), therefore it is imbalanced. How about using some combination of things, like marines and turrets + thors? Or T shouldn't have to mix units?
|
terran doesnt need to drop on top of the banes/ lings you use them to force a lift,then u fly in with you muta and kill it,Ill say it again i dont have trouble with 20 or less muta, i know i have to leave a medivac + 10 marins in my base with turrets maybe even a thor if hes getting annoying,but when he gets even more muta and comes in and takes my defenses out then gets into my production and i gotta stim my marines that where mid field to get back to base then he just flys over cliff snipes my sieged tanks, its just LOL how is this unit still in the game likes this.
|
I think with HotS blizz is just trying to open up some options in dealing with mutalisk. With TvZ you have to have a bunch of marines and a bunch of turrets to deal with mass muta, and in PvZ, at least for the time being, the toss has to either base trade or get a million phoenix
|
On November 07 2011 05:30 headdshot wrote:
terran doesnt need to drop on top of the banes/ lings you use them to force a lift,then u fly in with you muta and kill it,Ill say it again i dont have trouble with 20 or less muta, i know i have to leave a medivac + 10 marins in my base with turrets maybe even a thor if hes getting annoying,but when he gets even more muta and comes in and takes my defenses out then gets into my production and i gotta stim my marines that where mid field to get back to base then he just flys over cliff snipes my sieged tanks, its just LOL how is this unit still in the game likes this.
You really made a compelling case.
|
On November 07 2011 05:23 Exarian wrote:Show nested quote +
1) That would make the mutas pretty crappy as they probably couldn't get away from stimmed marines
2) Basically the infestor
3) Phoenix
4) Thor
1) It will force Zerg to take care of Marines first. It is not a problem since Infestor/Baneling do wonders... and there is no good reason to not force Zerg to mix units... 2) T/P do not have Infestor. 3) Phoenix has no splash. Phoenix is crap compared to Corsair. 3 Corsairs were able to counter near unlimited number of mutas in reasonable time. 4) Magic box is negating thor splash - there is no way to counter 30+ magicboxed mutas with 2 Thors, so it is not balanced.
have you ever played zerg, you'd probably know then that highly mixed zerg armies are usually pretty bad.
|
2 Thors (600/400) doesn't counter 30+ mutas (3000+/3000+), therefore it is imbalanced. How about using some combination of things, like marines and turrets + thors? Or T shouldn't have to mix units?
Ok, So lets say 10 marines + 5 Turrets + 3 Thors. Is it enoght to counter 30 mutas? Lets say yes... What does it mean:
You have 5 bases
You have 3 Thors, 10 Marines and 5 Turrets in each to make it protected from muta harassement...
So you basically spent 8875m+3000g to protect yourself from 3000m/3000g muta harassement... And you basically cannot move these fores from your base, or you will loose this specific expo.
Also... Defeating 30 muats with 3 Thors 10 Marines and 5 turrets will be still VERY difficult and your biggest hope is Zerg mistake...
Thats why 2 Thors being able to kill 30+ mutas is perfect way of fixing Mutas against T.
|
On November 07 2011 05:33 arfyron wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 05:30 headdshot wrote:
terran doesnt need to drop on top of the banes/ lings you use them to force a lift,then u fly in with you muta and kill it,Ill say it again i dont have trouble with 20 or less muta, i know i have to leave a medivac + 10 marins in my base with turrets maybe even a thor if hes getting annoying,but when he gets even more muta and comes in and takes my defenses out then gets into my production and i gotta stim my marines that where mid field to get back to base then he just flys over cliff snipes my sieged tanks, its just LOL how is this unit still in the game likes this. You really made a compelling case.
not sure if seriouse, if not please tell me how its balanced having a flying unit as fast as the muta in mass with the damage it does.
|
This thread should belong in the strategy section "Help against mass muta ZvTP" and people should be required to post replays where they lose to mutalisks. Maybe then a few good Terran and Protoss players that can help you all.
|
On November 07 2011 05:38 headdshot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 05:33 arfyron wrote:On November 07 2011 05:30 headdshot wrote:
terran doesnt need to drop on top of the banes/ lings you use them to force a lift,then u fly in with you muta and kill it,Ill say it again i dont have trouble with 20 or less muta, i know i have to leave a medivac + 10 marins in my base with turrets maybe even a thor if hes getting annoying,but when he gets even more muta and comes in and takes my defenses out then gets into my production and i gotta stim my marines that where mid field to get back to base then he just flys over cliff snipes my sieged tanks, its just LOL how is this unit still in the game likes this. You really made a compelling case. not sure if seriouse, if not please tell me how its balanced having a flying unit as fast as the muta in mass with the damage it does.
All you said is that you have issues with them. MVP has no issues with them so maybe the problem is on your end and not with mutas.
|
so your argumant is that mvp doesnt have a problem with them so its balanced? how bout select getting sht on by idra with mass muta like 2 days ago, or not sure who it was but zvp on talderim last night in gsl, guy gets 20 mutas and toss just has 0 chance of taking his ( supposed easy to take) 3rd,sacking roaches and lings into the tosses army to slow it down so he can do more damage in the main wth the muta . Muta is just to mobile bottom line.
|
On November 07 2011 05:49 headdshot wrote:
so your argumant is that mvp doesnt have a problem with them so its balanced? how bout select getting sht on by idra with mass muta like 2 days ago, or not sure who it was but zvp on talderim last night in gsl, guy gets 20 mutas and toss just has 0 chance of taking his ( supposed easy to take) 3rd,sacking roaches and lings into the tosses army to slow it down so he can do more damage in the main wth the muta . Muta is just to mobile bottom line.
or like DRG vs supernova: DRG has like 30mutas and supernova safely expands until he is on 4base and curshes DRG
or like White-Ra vs Idra today: Idra builds 20mutas and white-ra roflstomps him with blink stalker/archon/immortal
Every high level terran knows exactly how to defend massmuta play out of an even position, and protoss are just learning it...
|
On November 07 2011 05:49 headdshot wrote:
so your argumant is that mvp doesnt have a problem with them so its balanced? how bout select getting sht on by idra with mass muta like 2 days ago, or not sure who it was but zvp on talderim last night in gsl, guy gets 20 mutas and toss just has 0 chance of taking his ( supposed easy to take) 3rd,sacking roaches and lings into the tosses army to slow it down so he can do more damage in the main wth the muta . Muta is just to mobile bottom line.
Yeah that basically is my argument. Calling mutas too mobile and unbalanced doesn't make sense considering the state of the game at a pro level. Terrans are beating zergs just fine.
|
On November 07 2011 05:55 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 05:49 headdshot wrote:
so your argumant is that mvp doesnt have a problem with them so its balanced? how bout select getting sht on by idra with mass muta like 2 days ago, or not sure who it was but zvp on talderim last night in gsl, guy gets 20 mutas and toss just has 0 chance of taking his ( supposed easy to take) 3rd,sacking roaches and lings into the tosses army to slow it down so he can do more damage in the main wth the muta . Muta is just to mobile bottom line. or like DRG vs supernova: DRG has like 30mutas and supernova safely expands until he is on 4base and curshes DRG or like White-Ra vs Idra today: Idra builds 20mutas and white-ra roflstomps him with blink stalker/archon/immortal Every high level terran knows exactly how to defend massmuta play out of an even position, and protoss are just learning it...
Defend the muta as much as you like, the unit is simply to mobile in comparison to t/p units.
|
On November 07 2011 05:59 headdshot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 05:55 Big J wrote:On November 07 2011 05:49 headdshot wrote:
so your argumant is that mvp doesnt have a problem with them so its balanced? how bout select getting sht on by idra with mass muta like 2 days ago, or not sure who it was but zvp on talderim last night in gsl, guy gets 20 mutas and toss just has 0 chance of taking his ( supposed easy to take) 3rd,sacking roaches and lings into the tosses army to slow it down so he can do more damage in the main wth the muta . Muta is just to mobile bottom line. or like DRG vs supernova: DRG has like 30mutas and supernova safely expands until he is on 4base and curshes DRG or like White-Ra vs Idra today: Idra builds 20mutas and white-ra roflstomps him with blink stalker/archon/immortal Every high level terran knows exactly how to defend massmuta play out of an even position, and protoss are just learning it... Defend the muta as much as you like, the unit is simply to mobile in comparison to t/p units.
Say it enough and you might be right.
|
he stated a fact actually.
|
On November 07 2011 05:38 Exarian wrote:Show nested quote +2 Thors (600/400) doesn't counter 30+ mutas (3000+/3000+), therefore it is imbalanced. How about using some combination of things, like marines and turrets + thors? Or T shouldn't have to mix units? Ok, So lets say 10 marines + 5 Turrets + 3 Thors. Is it enoght to counter 30 mutas? Lets say yes... What does it mean: You have 5 bases You have 3 Thors, 10 Marines and 5 Turrets in each to make it protected from muta harassement... So you basically spent 8875m+3000g to protect yourself from 3000m/3000g muta harassement... And you basically cannot move these fores from your base, or you will loose this specific expo. Also... Defeating 30 muats with 3 Thors 10 Marines and 5 turrets will be still VERY difficult and your biggest hope is Zerg mistake...
Yeah, you'd need to have a complete retard as your opponent to defend efficiently. Some sort of bronze-league mistake like clumping up the mutas in a single spot.
And you know why you'd need it? To balance out the terrible choice of having 15 thors and 50 marines and not pushing out against somebody who only has mutalisks.
(note: what you've said applies to every harassment unit)
|
On November 07 2011 04:26 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 04:00 K3Nyy wrote:On November 07 2011 03:51 Big J wrote:On November 07 2011 03:37 Piledriver wrote:On November 07 2011 03:23 FakeDeath wrote:
Mutas are not OP in general.People just started to realize that mutas allow you to gain map control over toss and the basically taking the map with expansion and forcing toss to go mass stalkers or phoenixes.Mutas are also great at base trading scenarios since they have better mobility than the toss deathballs. People were already doing ling+muta from beta days. The only reason they stopped doing it is because they were doing 2 base muta every game and getting shut down hard by 6 gate timings. Now zergs have realized that instead of rushing to 2 base muta, they can open roach + ling to fend of possible 6 gates and then tech switch into 3-4 base mass muta. Larva is only a decision in the early/mid game. Once you reach 3-4 bases, you are no longer limited by larva as long as you are injecting well, you can do an easy transition to ling muta, and the toss cant do squat about it unless he was preparing for it right from the beginning with phoenixes (in which case you would be retarded to get mutas instead of infestors which shut down air play). I think an good fix would be to increase the gas cost of roach slightly so that there is a real decision that zerg has to make whether he wants to spend his gas on roaches or save for mutas. Right now, 25 gas is laughably low especially on 3 base, and for the cost of 4 stalkers and 1 zealot, you can have 8 roaches which just crush that force. For an equal amount of minerals + gas, you get nearly twice the amount of roaches which beat both stalkers and zealots straight up, especially with upgrades. yeah and people where going double stargate in the beta before 6gate was discovered and then when you went muta you were dead... I don't get why you can't add in some corrupters and then make a bunch of lings and kill his ridiculously small army. I don't think you can ever go stargate in response to mutas and come out ahead. because you were doing that 2base vs 2base, which means you're dead as zerg if you're army doesn't do damage. Phoenix prevented the damage, Protoss wins... Your best bet were infestors, to maybe catch the phoenix at some point, but was really luck dependend and I guess you can imagine how low the mutacount stays if you have to transition into infestors of 2base... game spoiler: + Show Spoiler +If you're interested in "how to defend a player that goes 3base and switches into mutas after playing safe", watch White-Ra vs Idra game1 from the Asus invitational today... Did exactly what I'm saying all the time:
step 1: get a fast 3rd base (8mins for white ra)
step 2: keep scouting (warp prism harass seeing the hatching mutas)
step 3: even if you're caught with double robo pumping immortal and twilight council researching charge, you can win by transitioning into blink stalkers, getting some archons, playing safe for a short time and then just winning.
I'm pretty sure that double or triple stargate might work as well of 3bases, as long as you're playing safe and adding archons or storm to make lings useless. Thing is, of 2base you will never have enough stuff (be it stalkers, phoenix or whatever) to combat 3base mutalisks.
Once you start harassing with mutas, you can start expanding freely. I dunno any zerg that would actually STAY on 2 bases when they are harassing. A fast 3rd dies by 8 mins to a lot of stuff, mainly everything.
Double SG with Archons? When can you ever get that? When can you have enough phoenixes to counter mutas and have templar tech?
Mutas vs double Robo is basically a build order win. There's no way to actually save the 3rd base for Protoss if he expanded. Robo is pretty useless vs Mutas and getting Twilight after investing that much money into Robo doesn't help either.
|
yep dealing with mass muta itself isnt the ridicilous thing to counter as protoss problem is , you have once you spot a spire be prepared for mass muta play and straight out lose instantly if you arent , meaning relative fast 4th is impossible not even arguing about some 3rd timings , thats map dependant , as follow up to a volley of mutas Zerg can plant everywhere on the map tech cause the map is his and 1 ovi + creep snodder allows you to hide potential switches very easy.
Mutalisks vs Protoss including race all arround supporting facts makes mutalisk overpowered. , and yes this preparing for protoss is way more expensive then for a terran a terran has cheaper and more cost effective turrets with higher range that doesnt need pylon powering and are repairable , aswell as mules that allow you on 2 base 3 base mineral income .
also protoss needs gas for mobile anti air wich is weaker then terrans just minerals defense wich has devasting damage potential vs Mutalisk the chuckrine
|
On November 07 2011 06:20 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 04:26 Big J wrote:On November 07 2011 04:00 K3Nyy wrote:On November 07 2011 03:51 Big J wrote:On November 07 2011 03:37 Piledriver wrote:On November 07 2011 03:23 FakeDeath wrote:
Mutas are not OP in general.People just started to realize that mutas allow you to gain map control over toss and the basically taking the map with expansion and forcing toss to go mass stalkers or phoenixes.Mutas are also great at base trading scenarios since they have better mobility than the toss deathballs. People were already doing ling+muta from beta days. The only reason they stopped doing it is because they were doing 2 base muta every game and getting shut down hard by 6 gate timings. Now zergs have realized that instead of rushing to 2 base muta, they can open roach + ling to fend of possible 6 gates and then tech switch into 3-4 base mass muta. Larva is only a decision in the early/mid game. Once you reach 3-4 bases, you are no longer limited by larva as long as you are injecting well, you can do an easy transition to ling muta, and the toss cant do squat about it unless he was preparing for it right from the beginning with phoenixes (in which case you would be retarded to get mutas instead of infestors which shut down air play). I think an good fix would be to increase the gas cost of roach slightly so that there is a real decision that zerg has to make whether he wants to spend his gas on roaches or save for mutas. Right now, 25 gas is laughably low especially on 3 base, and for the cost of 4 stalkers and 1 zealot, you can have 8 roaches which just crush that force. For an equal amount of minerals + gas, you get nearly twice the amount of roaches which beat both stalkers and zealots straight up, especially with upgrades. yeah and people where going double stargate in the beta before 6gate was discovered and then when you went muta you were dead... I don't get why you can't add in some corrupters and then make a bunch of lings and kill his ridiculously small army. I don't think you can ever go stargate in response to mutas and come out ahead. because you were doing that 2base vs 2base, which means you're dead as zerg if you're army doesn't do damage. Phoenix prevented the damage, Protoss wins... Your best bet were infestors, to maybe catch the phoenix at some point, but was really luck dependend and I guess you can imagine how low the mutacount stays if you have to transition into infestors of 2base... game spoiler: + Show Spoiler +If you're interested in "how to defend a player that goes 3base and switches into mutas after playing safe", watch White-Ra vs Idra game1 from the Asus invitational today... Did exactly what I'm saying all the time:
step 1: get a fast 3rd base (8mins for white ra)
step 2: keep scouting (warp prism harass seeing the hatching mutas)
step 3: even if you're caught with double robo pumping immortal and twilight council researching charge, you can win by transitioning into blink stalkers, getting some archons, playing safe for a short time and then just winning.
I'm pretty sure that double or triple stargate might work as well of 3bases, as long as you're playing safe and adding archons or storm to make lings useless. Thing is, of 2base you will never have enough stuff (be it stalkers, phoenix or whatever) to combat 3base mutalisks. Once you start harassing with mutas, you can start expanding freely. I dunno any zerg that would actually STAY on 2 bases when they are harassing. A fast 3rd dies by 8 mins to a lot of stuff, mainly everything. Double SG with Archons? When can you ever get that? When can you have enough phoenixes to counter mutas and have templar tech? Mutas vs double Robo is basically a build order win. There's no way to actually save the 3rd base for Protoss if he expanded. Robo is pretty useless vs Mutas and getting Twilight after investing that much money into Robo doesn't help either.
I don't say this is how one should do it. I say this is how WhiteRa DID IT. WhiteRa went 8min 3rd base. WhiteRa went double robo. WhiteRa held the mutaattack. WhiteRa transitioned into Archons. WhiteRa rolled through the spinecrawler zergling/roach muta defense of Idra.
Also WhiteRa went on to go for a 4min 3rd against Idra in another game and a 5min 3rd against Dimaga. This is how you play macro. You take risks. Do you think 3base base zerg openings don't include risks? They do, but matter of fact is that if you hold the allins over 50% of time, this is a good strategy...
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
