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[D]Are mutalisks overpowered in WOL?? - Page 52
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headdshot
43 Posts
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On November 07 2011 03:23 FakeDeath wrote: Mutas are not OP in general.People just started to realize that mutas allow you to gain map control over toss and the basically taking the map with expansion and forcing toss to go mass stalkers or phoenixes.Mutas are also great at base trading scenarios since they have better mobility than the toss deathballs. People were already doing ling+muta from beta days. The only reason they stopped doing it is because they were doing 2 base muta every game and getting shut down hard by 6 gate timings. Now zergs have realized that instead of rushing to 2 base muta, they can open roach + ling to fend of possible 6 gates and then tech switch into 3-4 base mass muta. Larva is only a decision in the early/mid game. Once you reach 3-4 bases, you are no longer limited by larva as long as you are injecting well, you can do an easy transition to ling muta, and the toss cant do squat about it unless he was preparing for it right from the beginning with phoenixes (in which case you would be retarded to get mutas instead of infestors which shut down air play). I think an good fix would be to increase the gas cost of roach slightly so that there is a real decision that zerg has to make whether he wants to spend his gas on roaches or save for mutas. Right now, 25 gas is laughably low especially on 3 base, and for the cost of 4 stalkers and 1 zealot, you can have 8 roaches which just crush that force. For an equal amount of minerals + gas, you get nearly twice the amount of roaches which beat both stalkers and zealots straight up, especially with upgrades. | ||
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Hakanfrog
Sweden690 Posts
In HoTS however I doubt zerg players will even build mutalisks with the phase cannnons, nexus recall and tempests dealing with them. | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On November 07 2011 03:38 Hakanfrog wrote: The main problem imo is that protoss units are way to immobile to deal with the mutalisks. Stalkers are really fast, however their dps is low so a zerg player can easily harrass with mutalisks without losing a single unit. Archons are really slow and often get stuck between buildings and you can´t realistically get enough pheonixes to kill the mutalisks without ground support. In HoTS however I doubt zerg players will even build mutalisks with the phase cannnons, nexus recall and tempests dealing with them. Oh you can go mutas in HoTS just fine. I think blizzard has the problem ass backwards. The tempest is not a solution to mass mutas, because the problem with mass mutas is not their straight up damage. The problem is lack of mobile units to deal with mutas. Giving a capital ship with 4 range and shitty movespeed is the stupidest idea ever to deal with mutas. How are tempests gonna prevent mutas from harassing 3 places at once? How is the toss going to move out anyway? Unless tempest has a wormhole ability like the old mothership, they are still going to be useless vs muta mobility. And I highly doubt if both phase cannons and recall will make it to HotS in its current state anyway. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 07 2011 03:37 Piledriver wrote: People were already doing ling+muta from beta days. The only reason they stopped doing it is because they were doing 2 base muta every game and getting shut down hard by 6 gate timings. Now zergs have realized that instead of rushing to 2 base muta, they can open roach + ling to fend of possible 6 gates and then tech switch into 3-4 base mass muta. Larva is only a decision in the early/mid game. Once you reach 3-4 bases, you are no longer limited by larva as long as you are injecting well, you can do an easy transition to ling muta, and the toss cant do squat about it unless he was preparing for it right from the beginning with phoenixes (in which case you would be retarded to get mutas instead of infestors which shut down air play). I think an good fix would be to increase the gas cost of roach slightly so that there is a real decision that zerg has to make whether he wants to spend his gas on roaches or save for mutas. Right now, 25 gas is laughably low especially on 3 base, and for the cost of 4 stalkers and 1 zealot, you can have 8 roaches which just crush that force. For an equal amount of minerals + gas, you get nearly twice the amount of roaches which beat both stalkers and zealots straight up, especially with upgrades. yeah and people where going double stargate in the beta before 6gate was discovered and then when you went muta you were dead... | ||
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tuho12345
4482 Posts
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headdshot
43 Posts
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On November 07 2011 03:51 Big J wrote: yeah and people where going double stargate in the beta before 6gate was discovered and then when you went muta you were dead... I don't get why you can't add in some corrupters and then make a bunch of lings and kill his ridiculously small army. I don't think you can ever go stargate in response to mutas and come out ahead. | ||
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BamBam
745 Posts
On November 07 2011 03:38 Hakanfrog wrote: The main problem imo is that protoss units are way to immobile to deal with the mutalisks. Stalkers are really fast, however their dps is low so a zerg player can easily harrass with mutalisks without losing a single unit. Archons are really slow and often get stuck between buildings and you can´t realistically get enough pheonixes to kill the mutalisks without ground support. In HoTS however I doubt zerg players will even build mutalisks with the phase cannnons, nexus recall and tempests dealing with them. even in HOTS I still think zerg will have their use with mutalisks You can't get tempests unless you open up stargate tech then transition into the fleet beacon, which if you do that means no colossus and zerg can do an early hydra or roach bust. As for the nexus abilities, anything that prevents you from using chrono boost from your nexus is a win for most zergs. =D | ||
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Exarian
Poland58 Posts
- Mutas speed reduced by 20-25% [It will make defending 3+ bases much easier, player will be still forced to react fast or he will lose expo] - Toss/Terran get ability/spell redusing/immobilizing mutas [So he actually has a chace to catch muta swarm with his slow army] - Terran/Toss get Fast-moving (at muta speed) unit with AtA splash damage [something like Valkirie/Corsair, these units fixed mutas in SC1] - Terran/Toss get VERY long ranged (9-10) AtA unit with HUGE AtA splash (2.0-2.5 radius) [If you build ~8-10 food worth of these units per expo, each of these expos may counter near unlimited number of mutas - it will force Zerg to tech switch] As long as there will be no way to reduce Mutas positioning advantage without sacrificing strength advantage, mutas will not be balanced. Simple. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 07 2011 04:00 K3Nyy wrote: I don't get why you can't add in some corrupters and then make a bunch of lings and kill his ridiculously small army. I don't think you can ever go stargate in response to mutas and come out ahead. because you were doing that 2base vs 2base, which means you're dead as zerg if you're army doesn't do damage. Phoenix prevented the damage, Protoss wins... Your best bet were infestors, to maybe catch the phoenix at some point, but was really luck dependend and I guess you can imagine how low the mutacount stays if you have to transition into infestors of 2base... game spoiler: + Show Spoiler + If you're interested in "how to defend a player that goes 3base and switches into mutas after playing safe", watch White-Ra vs Idra game1 from the Asus invitational today... Did exactly what I'm saying all the time: step 1: get a fast 3rd base (8mins for white ra) step 2: keep scouting (warp prism harass seeing the hatching mutas) step 3: even if you're caught with double robo pumping immortal and twilight council researching charge, you can win by transitioning into blink stalkers, getting some archons, playing safe for a short time and then just winning. I'm pretty sure that double or triple stargate might work as well of 3bases, as long as you're playing safe and adding archons or storm to make lings useless. Thing is, of 2base you will never have enough stuff (be it stalkers, phoenix or whatever) to combat 3base mutalisks. | ||
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ProxyKnoxy
United Kingdom2576 Posts
On November 07 2011 04:18 Exarian wrote: I see following ways of fixing mutas: - Mutas speed reduced by 20-25% [It will make defending 3+ bases much easier, player will be still forced to react fast or he will lose expo] - Toss/Terran get ability/spell redusing/immobilizing mutas [So he actually has a chace to catch muta swarm with his slow army] - Terran/Toss get Fast-moving (at muta speed) unit with AtA splash damage [something like Valkirie/Corsair, these units fixed mutas in SC1] - Terran/Toss get VERY long ranged (9-10) AtA unit with HUGE AtA splash (2.0-2.5 radius) [If you build ~8-10 food worth of these units per expo, each of these expos may counter near unlimited number of mutas - it will force Zerg to tech switch] As long as there will be no way to reduce Mutas positioning advantage without sacrificing strength advantage, mutas will not be balanced. Simple. 1) That would make the mutas pretty crappy as they probably couldn't get away from stimmed marines 2) Basically the infestor 3) Phoenix 4) Thor Somehow I don't think you have thought about how these units influence gameplay besides from countering mutas | ||
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headdshot
43 Posts
On November 07 2011 04:42 ProxyKnoxy wrote: 1) That would make the mutas pretty crappy as they probably couldn't get away from stimmed marines 2) Basically the infestor 3) Phoenix 4) Thor Somehow I don't think you have thought about how these units influence gameplay besides from countering mutas 1) maybe you would be less inclined to make 40 mutas then? 2)basicly the infestor is the only way to really shut mass mutas down..(unless you wanna leave like 2 thors 5 turrets and 12 marines per base) 3)cant get enough of them fast enough. 4)slow,expensive,easly countered by letting your mutas spread. | ||
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SafeAsCheese
United States4924 Posts
On November 07 2011 03:37 Piledriver wrote: People were already doing ling+muta from beta days. The only reason they stopped doing it is because they were doing 2 base muta every game and getting shut down hard by 6 gate timings. Now zergs have realized that instead of rushing to 2 base muta, they can open roach + ling to fend of possible 6 gates and then tech switch into 3-4 base mass muta.. It stopped because it used to be shit. Remember when a zerg went muta, and tried to harass, but protoss warped in a Kydarian Amulet high templar and stormed them away with 4-5 cannons defending each mineral line, making it impossible for zerg to use the muta for their specified use? (harass) Now Z are actually able to try these builds out and having success, which is only natural, because protoss have no idea how to deal with it without amulet, and only 5-10 protoss have the multitasking required to keep stalkers and archons in proper positions. | ||
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mec
Sweden192 Posts
On November 07 2011 03:31 headdshot wrote: tbh mutas are way to fking mobile,hurr durr gonna fly over the cliff with my 4k worth of gas units and 1 shot ur 3 turrets/cannons, throw one glaive and destroy half your mineral line and then fly out np right before the stimmed marines/blink stalkers get there,oh your third is undefended now? gonna fly in and take that out in less then 10 seconds because i have 4k worth ofgas units just flying where ever the fuck i want.perfect example talterim alter distance from main to third is stupid. User was warned for this post Zerg needs 4k worth of gas unit to do that kind of dmg while Terran needs 8 marines (1 medivac)/4 hellions(1 medivac)/1 banshee to do it. Oh the irony.. | ||
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headdshot
43 Posts
On November 07 2011 05:08 mec wrote: Zerg needs 4k worth of gas unit to do that kind of dmg while Terran needs 8 marines (1 medivac)/4 hellions(1 medivac)/1 banshee to do it. Oh the irony.. lol you cant be seriouse , leave 2 to 3 banes and 6 lings + your queen at each of your bases and your fine, fly in with your mutas and take the drop out? not hard is it, tell me what i can do againts 30-40 mutas flying around my bases sniping addons/tech. I am terrand and I dont have trouble with low muta counts (10-20) but when 30 or more fly in over a cliff its just stupid. | ||
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archbounds
17 Posts
a) Thors are NOT the counter to mutas. They are too immobile to be useful, mutas will just fly around. Thors are Really expensive, and Only useful when the zerg isn't looking and accidentally flew an ball of mutas Into a few without Magic Boxing. b) Magic Box makes mutas Way Way too strong for their cost. Unless you have about 1 Thor per ~5 mutas, Magic Box will just wreck you. Thos take a long time to build- by the time you have 3 or 4 thors Zerg iS already powering out mutas. Marines heLp a lot, but then you're not playing Mech terran. I think a large part of the Warhound and the Thor nerf was to introduce a mid-range counter to mutalisks that scale well and can build numbers fairly quickly. c) Thors are terrible at base defense. Leaving 1 Thor in the corner with a few turrets does little to nothing once ~10 mutas are running across the map. What usually happens iS that you see the mutas coming, send SCVs to repair, loose ~600/200 worth of resources (not including mining time), stim a bunch of marines, and run up the ramp. Once zerg sees the marines, he runs. You loose a stim and medivac energy, and the zerg Lost little to nothing because of Magic Box. d) Warhounds will be able to defend against mutas in cost-effective groups, while still being able to keep up with your ground army. Along with battle hellions, Mech will become very viable in TvZ. As of now, Mutas are too much to deal with in the mid-game as Terran, and are Way too effective against the unit that's supposed to counter them. | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
Viper pulls massive units. Thor is massive. Zerg could just use vipers against mech, pull all the AA from the terran army, and then eat the faces of everything. Warhound isn't massive (afaik) so it can't be pulled away It's kind of lame that mech takes up so much food though. At this point, battle hellions will be better than tanks because they don't instantly die to mass lings and with enough warhounds and like 2-3 tanks roaches won't be a problem at all. :/ | ||
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UniQ.eu
Sweden82 Posts
On November 07 2011 05:16 archbounds wrote: Mutas are pretty fucking difficult to deal with in TvZ. Thors are not the Answer.0 a) Thors are NOT the counter to mutas. They are too immobile to be useful, mutas will just fly around. Thors are Really expensive, and Only useful when the zerg isn't looking and accidentally flew an ball of mutas Into a few without Magic Boxing. b) Magic Box makes mutas Way Way too strong for their cost. Unless you have about 1 Thor per ~5 mutas, Magic Box will just wreck you. Thos take a long time to build- by the time you have 3 or 4 thors Zerg iS already powering out mutas. Marines heLp a lot, but then you're not playing Mech terran. I think a large part of the Warhound and the Thor nerf was to introduce a mid-range counter to mutalisks that scale well and can build numbers fairly quickly. c) Thors are terrible at base defense. Leaving 1 Thor in the corner with a few turrets does little to nothing once ~10 mutas are running across the map. What usually happens iS that you see the mutas coming, send SCVs to repair, loose ~600/200 worth of resources (not including mining time), stim a bunch of marines, and run up the ramp. Once zerg sees the marines, he runs. You loose a stim and medivac energy, and the zerg Lost little to nothing because of Magic Box. d) Warhounds will be able to defend against mutas in cost-effective groups, while still being able to keep up with your ground army. Along with battle hellions, Mech will become very viable in TvZ. As of now, Mutas are too much to deal with in the mid-game as Terran, and are Way too effective against the unit that's supposed to counter them. I gotta love those Terran posts assuming only one type of unit has to fight vs one other type of unit. How about you add 8 marines to that thor you have defending? well, it will be virtually impossible to break without taking 2-3x those cost in losses as a zerg. (magix box = marines + turrets wreck u, no magic box = thor wrecks you). And the thing about one thor / 5 mutas... is 300/200 (500 resources) really an unreasonable price to counter 500/500 (1000 resources) worth of units? And don't even begin with "but I can't leave my base beccause then mutas kill it", because if you didn't fail miserably his mutas will have to defend vs ur army once you leave your base, or else you win. Notice ur whole army will win the base race vs his mutas. | ||
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mec
Sweden192 Posts
On November 07 2011 05:15 headdshot wrote: lol you cant be seriouse , leave 2 to 3 banes and 6 lings + your queen at each of your bases and your fine, fly in with your mutas and take the drop out? not hard is it, tell me what i can do againts 30-40 mutas flying around my bases sniping addons/tech. I am terrand and I dont have trouble with low muta counts (10-20) but when 30 or more fly in over a cliff its just stupid. I would be fine if the terran would drop on top of the lings/banes. Im not saying its too strong or anything but my point is that those units can do just as much dmg to the miniral line (just as fast, except the banshee) as the amount of mutas you are talking about. You already know what you are suppose to do, get turrets, marines and thors. Thors don't kill the mutas but it makes it a lot harder to snipe buildings/units. Terran has by far the easiest way to counter mutas, I honestly don't see why you guys aren't happy that a zerg goes for them. | ||
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