[D]Are mutalisks overpowered in WOL?? - Page 50

On November 06 2011 11:03 ZeromuS wrote:


Well they would kill marines in one less one hit if one stalker was attacking, this benefit does stack and it would be more efficient against a lot of stuff like the 1-1-1 when kiting back. Would kill workers faster so they could be more effective as harass units as well. Killing mutas that much faster would help make it harder for zergs to attack and then leave without losing many units at all.

On November 06 2011 11:40 ZeromuS wrote:


Doesn't need to get as high as 14. But think about how improving the vs. light in any way would help a lot. Even 12 vs light would be a huge improvement and would make retaining mutas more difficult. Part of the problem I feel is its very easy for mutas to be retained in larger numbers against protoss in comparison to vs. Terran. Smaller numbers of stalkers could defend bases so that you can move out with some army to attack the zerg or pressure back. It wouldn't impact armoured units at all so marauders, bunkered marines would still be very good to hold gate pushes.

On November 06 2011 12:20 Ziggitz wrote:


It would completely break ZvP as protoss would essentially be able to perform the equivalent of a +3 or +4 ground weapons 7 gate blink stalker all in which would be unstoppable.

On November 06 2011 12:28 IVN wrote:
He is proposing a higher base dmg. vs armored would still be 14.

Meaning spines and roaches would not be affected at all.

On November 06 2011 11:33 Big J wrote:


yeah, or we just give the colossus 1000range so you don't have to move out to attack, or maybe give some other unit some insane buff. Of course, zergs would need some insane buff then as well, so why not make zerglings free?
Yeah that would be a funny game, if every unit would just do well against everything and was imba as shit.
Hey and to make it even funnier, I think there should be bots that control units for everyone, so people don't have to control stuff anymore...
Guys, do the math... +3damage doesn't just mean it deals more damage, it means the other units die faster, so you're unit recieves less damage. It means due to stalkers being a ranged unit, this will be an exponential buff for larger stalkerballs.
It will mean that timings like 4gate and 6gate, blinkrushes that are extremly stalker heavy and are usually fought with marines and zerglings will be extremly more powerful. Like 1.5times as strong as right now...

On November 06 2011 17:43 Qibla wrote:
Yes, when used properly you can kill way more workers than blue flame hellions, because they don't have to conform to terran. They can be anywhere on the map, and they are so damn fast. PLUS they are very powerful units to use in battle, where as hellions are almost purely used for harrass. Yes they cost more, but their value is exponential.

On November 06 2011 09:35 DreamChaser wrote:


The minuet a protoss player scouts spire there are a few choices they can make.
1. Do a timing attack hope you kill the zergs defense before mutalisk

2. You have to respect the possibility of muta harass, begin getting blink and teching to HT

3. Build cannons in the mineral lines

4. Expand

Those are the common decisions the toss has to make

Now let me tell you about good zerg mechanics, Zergs rushing mutalisk will have more spine crawlers than normal probably at least 4 in a choke. Zerg has map control with speedlings, most zergs have a roach warren built before spire just in case. So the toss player moves out the zergling stationed at the mouth of the toss base tells you this. Ok so instead of making 10 mutalisk you make 15 roaches hold off the attack, resupply quickly with zerglings and proceed to overwhelm the few units toss has warped in.

So lets say the toss holds this you kill the toss 3rd or deny it, now you (zerg) can take a 3rd or 4th then get 15 mutalisk.




So besides a 2 base timing push can you tell me an effective way to deal with mass mutalisk? Making phoenix is to late unless you open SG and last i checked Phoenix attacks dont bounce to 3 targets.

On November 06 2011 18:01 hzflank wrote:


This is absolutely incorrect, aswell as worded in a very out of order fashion. Stalkers do not do 'well' against any terran or zerg ground units. They have a small window vs marines before concussive shell (and a marauder arrives). The only ground unit that stalkers are really good against are other stalkers.

Stalker damage output is currently terrible. To my knowledge, there is no unit that even comes close to the stalker in terms of damage/cost. The supposed strength of the stalker is its high ammout of shields, its speed and the blink ability. In my opinion the real strength of the stalker is its synergy with the setry's forcefield. You could easily increase a stalker's base damage to 14 (and remove the bonus vs armoured) as long as you nerfed the stalker + forcefield combination. One way to do that would be to reduce the range of stalkers (and marauders) to 5.

A better way would be to give the stalker a seperate ground to air attack that has a bonus vs light instead of a bonus vs armoured. Stalkers dont do enough damage vs banshees or phoenix either, so that would help. But stalkers are arguably too strong against void rays and broodlords, so swapping the anti-air bonus to light would help on both counts. My only worry would be losing the bonus vs corrupters, but it would probably be okay.

On November 06 2011 18:28 Amui wrote:


Stalkers simply need a way to suck less vs. light air. I think everything else in the game stalkers are mediocre to bad against. Stalkers are just atrocious at killing basically all airborne light units(phoenix, mutalisks, banshees). For reference, a 3/3/3 stalker still loses to a banshee. That's how bad stalkers are. Muta's are a problem simply because stalkers don't kill mutalisks quickly. If you right click a 30 muta ball over 30 marines by accident, you'll lose half your muta's. If you right click over 15 stalkers(equal supply), you'll lose maybe 6 or 7 mutalisks.

On November 06 2011 18:16 hzflank wrote:


Most ground units have 1 base armour, so a stalker does 6.25 dps to a non-armoured target. A hellion does 2.8 dps to a non-light target, assuming the hellion only hits one target.

A stalker costs more that a hellion. People value gas at anywhere between 1.5 to 3 times as much as minerals. To make this as favourable as possible for the terran, lets say that gas is worth 1.5 times as much as minerals. That makes a stalker worth exactly as much as two hellions. Two hellions do 5.6 dps, which is 90% as much as a stalker. A hellion only has to hit an additional target twice per ten shots to do more damage that a stalker.

Hellions get a 75% damage bonus vs zealots and sentries. Stalkers gst a 40% damage bonus vs marauders, thors and siege tanks. I think it is fair to say that hellions will get the benefit of their bonus damage more often.

Two hellions have a combined 180 health and zero base armour. A stalker has 80 health with 1 armour and 80 shields with zero armour. Stalkers are armoured, hellions are light. The only protoss unit with a bonus vs light is the phoenix. Terrans marauders 9and unsieged tanks) get a big bonus vs armour. Two hellions can withstand more single target damage than one stalker.

Stalkers move at 2.95 speed and hellions move at 4.25 speed.

In short, stalkers are not priced as main combat units. In fact since the immotal range buff, the only reason to ever use stalkers is for anti air, harassment and because it is cheaper to add gateways than robo facilities.

On November 06 2011 13:43 Big J wrote:

I wouldn't mind some small change, but with every step that makes the stalker more universal, there would have to be small nerfs to specific counters (the colossus and the immortal come to my mind). Because right now, stalkerbased compositions (so the stalker is the main unit, zealots and sentries) can already hold their ground decently vs most units that are rather good on the paper vs stalkers (like roaches and zerglings; marines and marauders). And after going those lowtech defensive compositions, protoss just has to add very few (of course very expensive) units, to turn this army into a killerarmy against those stalkercounters. So the stalker needing less support, means that the stalker should only have weaker support available.
To be completly honest, I would really like such a tweaking, as I think this game is too much based on hardcounters. Especially Protoss MUs could need a little more elements of stable compositions ("guess what, I have a colossus and now your whole hydra/marine army is worthless", "you're relying on sentries? tell that to my infestors/ghosts") and interesting unit interactions (like marine splitting vs banelings, magic boxes vs thors... lol I'm already stuck... this whole game needs more such interesting, skillbased stuff and less composition/BO losses)

On November 06 2011 18:01 hzflank wrote:


This is absolutely incorrect, aswell as worded in a very out of order fashion. Stalkers do not do 'well' against any terran or zerg ground units. They have a small window vs marines before concussive shell (and a marauder arrives). The only ground unit that stalkers are really good against are other stalkers.

Stalker damage output is currently terrible. To my knowledge, there is no unit that even comes close to the stalker in terms of damage/cost. The supposed strength of the stalker is its high ammout of shields, its speed and the blink ability. In my opinion the real strength of the stalker is its synergy with the setry's forcefield. You could easily increase a stalker's base damage to 14 (and remove the bonus vs armoured) as long as you nerfed the stalker + forcefield combination. One way to do that would be to reduce the range of stalkers (and marauders) to 5.

A better way would be to give the stalker a seperate ground to air attack that has a bonus vs light instead of a bonus vs armoured. Stalkers dont do enough damage vs banshees or phoenix either, so that would help. But stalkers are arguably too strong against void rays and broodlords, so swapping the anti-air bonus to light would help on both counts. My only worry would be losing the bonus vs corrupters, but it would probably be okay.

On November 06 2011 18:24 Flonomenalz wrote:

If mutas are OP why isn't every zerg going muta ling base trade zvp?

On November 06 2011 20:46 Big J wrote:



Blink Stalkers beat rangehydras by a lot, costwise and supplywise. Blink Stalkers are nearly equal with a roacharmy on open field costwise and beat them supplywise (that is the reason blink stalkers are considered.
Blink Stalkers beat mutalisks costefficient and supplyefficient by a lot.
Hell they even beat cracklings supplyefficient on open field (just to show you that even their strongest "counter" in the zerg arsenal is not as efficient as most people think).

Yes the stalkers damage output per cost is terrible. But the stalkers speed, the stalkers utility through blink and the stalkers early availability all are great. It has been designed as a semiharass/semicombat unit and therefore needs some assistance from other units in (offensive) combats. But there is nothing wrong with that, because Protoss can give the stalker that assistance.

And as I have written before: if blizzard wants to give the stalker even more utility, they should go ahead and do some tweaking with the stalker damage vs light. But in return they should nerf other units damage like the colossus, because Protoss won't need its damage output anymore as drastically as they do now.

On November 06 2011 20:54 Flyingdutchman wrote:


because the decision to go for a baserace lies completely with the protoss.