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On November 07 2011 06:30 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 06:20 K3Nyy wrote:On November 07 2011 04:26 Big J wrote:On November 07 2011 04:00 K3Nyy wrote:On November 07 2011 03:51 Big J wrote:On November 07 2011 03:37 Piledriver wrote:On November 07 2011 03:23 FakeDeath wrote:
Mutas are not OP in general.People just started to realize that mutas allow you to gain map control over toss and the basically taking the map with expansion and forcing toss to go mass stalkers or phoenixes.Mutas are also great at base trading scenarios since they have better mobility than the toss deathballs. People were already doing ling+muta from beta days. The only reason they stopped doing it is because they were doing 2 base muta every game and getting shut down hard by 6 gate timings. Now zergs have realized that instead of rushing to 2 base muta, they can open roach + ling to fend of possible 6 gates and then tech switch into 3-4 base mass muta. Larva is only a decision in the early/mid game. Once you reach 3-4 bases, you are no longer limited by larva as long as you are injecting well, you can do an easy transition to ling muta, and the toss cant do squat about it unless he was preparing for it right from the beginning with phoenixes (in which case you would be retarded to get mutas instead of infestors which shut down air play). I think an good fix would be to increase the gas cost of roach slightly so that there is a real decision that zerg has to make whether he wants to spend his gas on roaches or save for mutas. Right now, 25 gas is laughably low especially on 3 base, and for the cost of 4 stalkers and 1 zealot, you can have 8 roaches which just crush that force. For an equal amount of minerals + gas, you get nearly twice the amount of roaches which beat both stalkers and zealots straight up, especially with upgrades. yeah and people where going double stargate in the beta before 6gate was discovered and then when you went muta you were dead... I don't get why you can't add in some corrupters and then make a bunch of lings and kill his ridiculously small army. I don't think you can ever go stargate in response to mutas and come out ahead. because you were doing that 2base vs 2base, which means you're dead as zerg if you're army doesn't do damage. Phoenix prevented the damage, Protoss wins... Your best bet were infestors, to maybe catch the phoenix at some point, but was really luck dependend and I guess you can imagine how low the mutacount stays if you have to transition into infestors of 2base... game spoiler: + Show Spoiler +If you're interested in "how to defend a player that goes 3base and switches into mutas after playing safe", watch White-Ra vs Idra game1 from the Asus invitational today... Did exactly what I'm saying all the time:
step 1: get a fast 3rd base (8mins for white ra)
step 2: keep scouting (warp prism harass seeing the hatching mutas)
step 3: even if you're caught with double robo pumping immortal and twilight council researching charge, you can win by transitioning into blink stalkers, getting some archons, playing safe for a short time and then just winning.
I'm pretty sure that double or triple stargate might work as well of 3bases, as long as you're playing safe and adding archons or storm to make lings useless. Thing is, of 2base you will never have enough stuff (be it stalkers, phoenix or whatever) to combat 3base mutalisks. Once you start harassing with mutas, you can start expanding freely. I dunno any zerg that would actually STAY on 2 bases when they are harassing. A fast 3rd dies by 8 mins to a lot of stuff, mainly everything. Double SG with Archons? When can you ever get that? When can you have enough phoenixes to counter mutas and have templar tech? Mutas vs double Robo is basically a build order win. There's no way to actually save the 3rd base for Protoss if he expanded. Robo is pretty useless vs Mutas and getting Twilight after investing that much money into Robo doesn't help either. I don't say this is how one should do it. I say this is how WhiteRa DID IT. WhiteRa went 8min 3rd base. WhiteRa went double robo. WhiteRa held the mutaattack. WhiteRa transitioned into Archons. WhiteRa rolled through the spinecrawler zergling/roach muta defense of Idra. Also WhiteRa went on to go for a 4min 3rd against Idra in another game and a 5min 3rd against Dimaga. This is how you play macro. You take risks. Do you think 3base base zerg openings don't include risks? They do, but matter of fact is that if you hold the allins over 50% of time, this is a good strategy...
Your trying to say toss should take a 4 minute 3rd againts zerg now? do you not understand that the way zerg works its much safer for the zerg to play greedy then the toss? toss cant just make 20 lings and run them into your 3rd and kill all your stuff, i havent even watch the white ra games but im gonna assume it was on some huge map where one choke defends 3 bases.
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On November 07 2011 06:43 headdshot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 06:30 Big J wrote:On November 07 2011 06:20 K3Nyy wrote:On November 07 2011 04:26 Big J wrote:On November 07 2011 04:00 K3Nyy wrote:On November 07 2011 03:51 Big J wrote:On November 07 2011 03:37 Piledriver wrote:On November 07 2011 03:23 FakeDeath wrote:
Mutas are not OP in general.People just started to realize that mutas allow you to gain map control over toss and the basically taking the map with expansion and forcing toss to go mass stalkers or phoenixes.Mutas are also great at base trading scenarios since they have better mobility than the toss deathballs. People were already doing ling+muta from beta days. The only reason they stopped doing it is because they were doing 2 base muta every game and getting shut down hard by 6 gate timings. Now zergs have realized that instead of rushing to 2 base muta, they can open roach + ling to fend of possible 6 gates and then tech switch into 3-4 base mass muta. Larva is only a decision in the early/mid game. Once you reach 3-4 bases, you are no longer limited by larva as long as you are injecting well, you can do an easy transition to ling muta, and the toss cant do squat about it unless he was preparing for it right from the beginning with phoenixes (in which case you would be retarded to get mutas instead of infestors which shut down air play). I think an good fix would be to increase the gas cost of roach slightly so that there is a real decision that zerg has to make whether he wants to spend his gas on roaches or save for mutas. Right now, 25 gas is laughably low especially on 3 base, and for the cost of 4 stalkers and 1 zealot, you can have 8 roaches which just crush that force. For an equal amount of minerals + gas, you get nearly twice the amount of roaches which beat both stalkers and zealots straight up, especially with upgrades. yeah and people where going double stargate in the beta before 6gate was discovered and then when you went muta you were dead... I don't get why you can't add in some corrupters and then make a bunch of lings and kill his ridiculously small army. I don't think you can ever go stargate in response to mutas and come out ahead. because you were doing that 2base vs 2base, which means you're dead as zerg if you're army doesn't do damage. Phoenix prevented the damage, Protoss wins... Your best bet were infestors, to maybe catch the phoenix at some point, but was really luck dependend and I guess you can imagine how low the mutacount stays if you have to transition into infestors of 2base... game spoiler: + Show Spoiler +If you're interested in "how to defend a player that goes 3base and switches into mutas after playing safe", watch White-Ra vs Idra game1 from the Asus invitational today... Did exactly what I'm saying all the time:
step 1: get a fast 3rd base (8mins for white ra)
step 2: keep scouting (warp prism harass seeing the hatching mutas)
step 3: even if you're caught with double robo pumping immortal and twilight council researching charge, you can win by transitioning into blink stalkers, getting some archons, playing safe for a short time and then just winning.
I'm pretty sure that double or triple stargate might work as well of 3bases, as long as you're playing safe and adding archons or storm to make lings useless. Thing is, of 2base you will never have enough stuff (be it stalkers, phoenix or whatever) to combat 3base mutalisks. Once you start harassing with mutas, you can start expanding freely. I dunno any zerg that would actually STAY on 2 bases when they are harassing. A fast 3rd dies by 8 mins to a lot of stuff, mainly everything. Double SG with Archons? When can you ever get that? When can you have enough phoenixes to counter mutas and have templar tech? Mutas vs double Robo is basically a build order win. There's no way to actually save the 3rd base for Protoss if he expanded. Robo is pretty useless vs Mutas and getting Twilight after investing that much money into Robo doesn't help either. I don't say this is how one should do it. I say this is how WhiteRa DID IT. WhiteRa went 8min 3rd base. WhiteRa went double robo. WhiteRa held the mutaattack. WhiteRa transitioned into Archons. WhiteRa rolled through the spinecrawler zergling/roach muta defense of Idra. Also WhiteRa went on to go for a 4min 3rd against Idra in another game and a 5min 3rd against Dimaga. This is how you play macro. You take risks. Do you think 3base base zerg openings don't include risks? They do, but matter of fact is that if you hold the allins over 50% of time, this is a good strategy... Your trying to say toss should take a 4 minute 3rd againts zerg now? do you not understand that the way zerg works its much safer for the zerg to play greedy then the toss? toss cant just make 20 lings and run them into your 3rd and kill all your stuff, i havent even watch the white ra games but im gonna assume it was on some huge map where one choke defends 3 bases.
Forcefields, canons, and sim city would like to have a word with you on that one buddy. A P can play quite greedy and still be safe vs Z if he wants to play macro, the issue is most Ps are too used to doing big 1/2 base timing attacks or all ins and haven't really explored true macro play enough.
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lol how much sim city are you gonna have taking a 4/5 minute 3rd,ffdouble expand? 1 gate double expo? not sure what your going on bout. You know why in zvz you cant play super greedy like other mu's? cause its super unsafe if it gets scouted.
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On October 25 2011 18:22 Brotocol wrote:
* Protoss "doesn't really need any more units" so they're giving P players something to fill the strange scenario of "40-50 mutalisks." I don't agree with their reasoning either.
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One of the reason I think why Protoss gets new units, is that Protoss always has to stick to zealot/stalkers through the whole game, just adding on some units. Protoss cant mass one unit, like Terran and Zerg can. (And mass i mean have a large number of one unit, + some supports) Adding more units will may make a variation for protoss. Just my thought...
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Imo part of the massmuta problem is that the cheap ling/bling groundarmies can usually weaken the enemy enough for the mutas to easily clean it up. This means having huge amounts of resources in "weak combat unit" is no problem for the zerg.
Obviously the worst thing is the crazy mobility. Counterunits don't matter much when mutas almost never need to fight them. And when the big fight happens mutas already flew there at the speed of light while your defenders sit in your base. While mutas are really strong in big numbers they suck horribly in little numbers.
This is purely from TvZ perspective and I believe its pretty well balanced atm. However I do think they should change things since mass muta has been very standard in ZvT for long time and is now becoming that in ZvP too. I don't care if they buff another unit to justify muta nerf, or give muta something else while nerfing it, but they should do something. I guess that everyone agree, that when massing a harrasment unit is the way to go in both matchups, something is wrong.
I don't think that HOTS will change much. Who wants a huge, expensive and slow capital ship to chase way faster mutas and never get a shot off? Who wants small thors that will prolly get magicboxed like thors?
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On November 07 2011 06:46 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 06:43 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 06:30 Big J wrote:On November 07 2011 06:20 K3Nyy wrote:On November 07 2011 04:26 Big J wrote:On November 07 2011 04:00 K3Nyy wrote:On November 07 2011 03:51 Big J wrote:On November 07 2011 03:37 Piledriver wrote:On November 07 2011 03:23 FakeDeath wrote:
Mutas are not OP in general.People just started to realize that mutas allow you to gain map control over toss and the basically taking the map with expansion and forcing toss to go mass stalkers or phoenixes.Mutas are also great at base trading scenarios since they have better mobility than the toss deathballs. People were already doing ling+muta from beta days. The only reason they stopped doing it is because they were doing 2 base muta every game and getting shut down hard by 6 gate timings. Now zergs have realized that instead of rushing to 2 base muta, they can open roach + ling to fend of possible 6 gates and then tech switch into 3-4 base mass muta. Larva is only a decision in the early/mid game. Once you reach 3-4 bases, you are no longer limited by larva as long as you are injecting well, you can do an easy transition to ling muta, and the toss cant do squat about it unless he was preparing for it right from the beginning with phoenixes (in which case you would be retarded to get mutas instead of infestors which shut down air play). I think an good fix would be to increase the gas cost of roach slightly so that there is a real decision that zerg has to make whether he wants to spend his gas on roaches or save for mutas. Right now, 25 gas is laughably low especially on 3 base, and for the cost of 4 stalkers and 1 zealot, you can have 8 roaches which just crush that force. For an equal amount of minerals + gas, you get nearly twice the amount of roaches which beat both stalkers and zealots straight up, especially with upgrades. yeah and people where going double stargate in the beta before 6gate was discovered and then when you went muta you were dead... I don't get why you can't add in some corrupters and then make a bunch of lings and kill his ridiculously small army. I don't think you can ever go stargate in response to mutas and come out ahead. because you were doing that 2base vs 2base, which means you're dead as zerg if you're army doesn't do damage. Phoenix prevented the damage, Protoss wins... Your best bet were infestors, to maybe catch the phoenix at some point, but was really luck dependend and I guess you can imagine how low the mutacount stays if you have to transition into infestors of 2base... game spoiler: + Show Spoiler +If you're interested in "how to defend a player that goes 3base and switches into mutas after playing safe", watch White-Ra vs Idra game1 from the Asus invitational today... Did exactly what I'm saying all the time:
step 1: get a fast 3rd base (8mins for white ra)
step 2: keep scouting (warp prism harass seeing the hatching mutas)
step 3: even if you're caught with double robo pumping immortal and twilight council researching charge, you can win by transitioning into blink stalkers, getting some archons, playing safe for a short time and then just winning.
I'm pretty sure that double or triple stargate might work as well of 3bases, as long as you're playing safe and adding archons or storm to make lings useless. Thing is, of 2base you will never have enough stuff (be it stalkers, phoenix or whatever) to combat 3base mutalisks. Once you start harassing with mutas, you can start expanding freely. I dunno any zerg that would actually STAY on 2 bases when they are harassing. A fast 3rd dies by 8 mins to a lot of stuff, mainly everything. Double SG with Archons? When can you ever get that? When can you have enough phoenixes to counter mutas and have templar tech? Mutas vs double Robo is basically a build order win. There's no way to actually save the 3rd base for Protoss if he expanded. Robo is pretty useless vs Mutas and getting Twilight after investing that much money into Robo doesn't help either. I don't say this is how one should do it. I say this is how WhiteRa DID IT. WhiteRa went 8min 3rd base. WhiteRa went double robo. WhiteRa held the mutaattack. WhiteRa transitioned into Archons. WhiteRa rolled through the spinecrawler zergling/roach muta defense of Idra. Also WhiteRa went on to go for a 4min 3rd against Idra in another game and a 5min 3rd against Dimaga. This is how you play macro. You take risks. Do you think 3base base zerg openings don't include risks? They do, but matter of fact is that if you hold the allins over 50% of time, this is a good strategy... Your trying to say toss should take a 4 minute 3rd againts zerg now? do you not understand that the way zerg works its much safer for the zerg to play greedy then the toss? toss cant just make 20 lings and run them into your 3rd and kill all your stuff, i havent even watch the white ra games but im gonna assume it was on some huge map where one choke defends 3 bases. Forcefields, canons, and sim city would like to have a word with you on that one buddy. A P can play quite greedy and still be safe vs Z if he wants to play macro, the issue is most Ps are too used to doing big 1/2 base timing attacks or all ins and haven't really explored true macro play enough.
Yes, protoss players just never try anything dag nabit! They only cheeese, that's why they are so bad! =/
Show me a pro who consistently and successfully takes a third that quick. White-ra is the only one and doesn't do it that often. Zerg's can take quick thirds because it isn't quite as huge of a risk as it is for protoss.
But back on topic, I don't think mutas are overpowered necessarily, but in ZvP they do lead to these silly base trade games which are just dumb. Maybe the tempest will give protoss another option besides base trading idk, but I think that is what blizz is going for: to give protoss an option besides mass phoenix or base trading to deal with mass muta.
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Even if at the pro level it turns out that mutas aren't op the playing pvz with a zerg who just base trades with muta if you move out is the least fun playing sc2 i have and is just boring to watch It makes pvps have intricate and amazing strategies.
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On November 07 2011 05:49 headdshot wrote:
so your argumant is that mvp doesnt have a problem with them so its balanced? how bout select getting sht on by idra with mass muta like 2 days ago, or not sure who it was but zvp on talderim last night in gsl, guy gets 20 mutas and toss just has 0 chance of taking his ( supposed easy to take) 3rd,sacking roaches and lings into the tosses army to slow it down so he can do more damage in the main wth the muta . Muta is just to mobile bottom line.
Select is a shit terran who doesn't know how to macro, referencing any of his games as a point of imbalance against Terran is a clear indicator you have no idea what you're talking about. He gets shit on in any game that lasts longer than his cheese or overaggressive play intended. No shit the guy who never prepares for the mid or late game gets his ass handed to him in a macro game. There are plenty of ways to deal with mutas as terran, most of them require that you get off your ass and put pressure on the zerg so that he can't keep harassing your bases while you do nothing.
You have drops and timing attacks that can comfortably arrive before Mutalisks. Multiple drops prevent the zerg from using his Mutalisks for offensive without taking economic damage and even then two drops at the same time are almost always capable of keeping the pressure on the Zerg instead of the other way around. Expanding towards your opponent lets you keep your main army with marines defending your third, while a single thor and turrets plus a handful of marines can defend your main and natural. any bad engagement by the Zerg allows you to move out and start the base race, which you will win since Mutas will have to deal with turrets and depending on upgrades each marine you have will have more or equal dps compared to a Muta giving you double the dps for the supply.
User was warned for this post
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On November 07 2011 07:48 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 05:49 headdshot wrote:
so your argumant is that mvp doesnt have a problem with them so its balanced? how bout select getting sht on by idra with mass muta like 2 days ago, or not sure who it was but zvp on talderim last night in gsl, guy gets 20 mutas and toss just has 0 chance of taking his ( supposed easy to take) 3rd,sacking roaches and lings into the tosses army to slow it down so he can do more damage in the main wth the muta . Muta is just to mobile bottom line. Select is a shit terran who doesn't know how to macro, referencing any of his games as a point of imbalance against Terran is a clear indicator you have no idea what you're talking about. He gets shit on in any game that lasts longer than his cheese or overaggressive play intended. No shit the guy who never prepares for the mid or late game gets his ass handed to him in a macro game. There are plenty of ways to deal with mutas as terran, most of them require that you get off your ass and put pressure on the zerg so that he can't keep harassing your bases while you do nothing. You have drops and timing attacks that can comfortably arrive before Mutalisks. Multiple drops prevent the zerg from using his Mutalisks for offensive without taking economic damage and even then two drops at the same time are almost always capable of keeping the pressure on the Zerg instead of the other way around. Expanding towards your opponent lets you keep your main army with marines defending your third, while a single thor and turrets plus a handful of marines can defend your main and natural. any bad engagement by the Zerg allows you to move out and start the base race, which you will win since Mutas will have to deal with turrets and depending on upgrades each marine you have will have more or equal dps compared to a Muta giving you double the dps for the supply.
Maybe you should 1v1 with select since you clearly understand the game so well.....
Honestly, how could you call the best NA terran and one of the best foreigner terran shit? Who are you? You're a nobody and will never be any where near pro level even if you try.
I don't think the warhound is really going to be great against muta anyways. Marines will probably still be the go to unit with dealing with marines and the warhound is nothing more than another option so terran isn't forced to get massive amounts of marines every game.
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On November 07 2011 06:30 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 06:20 K3Nyy wrote:On November 07 2011 04:26 Big J wrote:On November 07 2011 04:00 K3Nyy wrote:On November 07 2011 03:51 Big J wrote:On November 07 2011 03:37 Piledriver wrote:On November 07 2011 03:23 FakeDeath wrote:
Mutas are not OP in general.People just started to realize that mutas allow you to gain map control over toss and the basically taking the map with expansion and forcing toss to go mass stalkers or phoenixes.Mutas are also great at base trading scenarios since they have better mobility than the toss deathballs. People were already doing ling+muta from beta days. The only reason they stopped doing it is because they were doing 2 base muta every game and getting shut down hard by 6 gate timings. Now zergs have realized that instead of rushing to 2 base muta, they can open roach + ling to fend of possible 6 gates and then tech switch into 3-4 base mass muta. Larva is only a decision in the early/mid game. Once you reach 3-4 bases, you are no longer limited by larva as long as you are injecting well, you can do an easy transition to ling muta, and the toss cant do squat about it unless he was preparing for it right from the beginning with phoenixes (in which case you would be retarded to get mutas instead of infestors which shut down air play). I think an good fix would be to increase the gas cost of roach slightly so that there is a real decision that zerg has to make whether he wants to spend his gas on roaches or save for mutas. Right now, 25 gas is laughably low especially on 3 base, and for the cost of 4 stalkers and 1 zealot, you can have 8 roaches which just crush that force. For an equal amount of minerals + gas, you get nearly twice the amount of roaches which beat both stalkers and zealots straight up, especially with upgrades. yeah and people where going double stargate in the beta before 6gate was discovered and then when you went muta you were dead... I don't get why you can't add in some corrupters and then make a bunch of lings and kill his ridiculously small army. I don't think you can ever go stargate in response to mutas and come out ahead. because you were doing that 2base vs 2base, which means you're dead as zerg if you're army doesn't do damage. Phoenix prevented the damage, Protoss wins... Your best bet were infestors, to maybe catch the phoenix at some point, but was really luck dependend and I guess you can imagine how low the mutacount stays if you have to transition into infestors of 2base... game spoiler: + Show Spoiler +If you're interested in "how to defend a player that goes 3base and switches into mutas after playing safe", watch White-Ra vs Idra game1 from the Asus invitational today... Did exactly what I'm saying all the time:
step 1: get a fast 3rd base (8mins for white ra)
step 2: keep scouting (warp prism harass seeing the hatching mutas)
step 3: even if you're caught with double robo pumping immortal and twilight council researching charge, you can win by transitioning into blink stalkers, getting some archons, playing safe for a short time and then just winning.
I'm pretty sure that double or triple stargate might work as well of 3bases, as long as you're playing safe and adding archons or storm to make lings useless. Thing is, of 2base you will never have enough stuff (be it stalkers, phoenix or whatever) to combat 3base mutalisks. Once you start harassing with mutas, you can start expanding freely. I dunno any zerg that would actually STAY on 2 bases when they are harassing. A fast 3rd dies by 8 mins to a lot of stuff, mainly everything. Double SG with Archons? When can you ever get that? When can you have enough phoenixes to counter mutas and have templar tech? Mutas vs double Robo is basically a build order win. There's no way to actually save the 3rd base for Protoss if he expanded. Robo is pretty useless vs Mutas and getting Twilight after investing that much money into Robo doesn't help either. I don't say this is how one should do it. I say this is how WhiteRa DID IT. WhiteRa went 8min 3rd base. WhiteRa went double robo. WhiteRa held the mutaattack. WhiteRa transitioned into Archons. WhiteRa rolled through the spinecrawler zergling/roach muta defense of Idra. Also WhiteRa went on to go for a 4min 3rd against Idra in another game and a 5min 3rd against Dimaga. This is how you play macro. You take risks. Do you think 3base base zerg openings don't include risks? They do, but matter of fact is that if you hold the allins over 50% of time, this is a good strategy...
No. Right now fast 3rds against Protoss have absolutely almost no risk. The most you'll get is zealot pressure or a nexus cancel.
How are 4/5/8 min 3rds for Protoss even close to safe? Hell, even expanding 1gate expo is less safe than fast 3rd for Zerg, never mind the 3rd for Protoss.
Double robo vs Mutas, you seriously gonna say that it helps? How does 2 robos do anything to help vs mutas. That's 400/200 and a whole bunch of opportunity cost that have been wasted so early in the game.
Earlier in this thread, I read you say that 8 min bases were safe vs Zerg. Now you're talking Protoss needing to take risks. Get your story straight.
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Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units.
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On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units.
cant mass banshee and win? Howbout Nestea vs SC in GSL RO32 this season?
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37108 Posts
My friend and I just played a bunch of 2v2s....
I take back everything that I said.... mutas are OP.....
Thors? useless
Stalkers? useless
Marines? useless
Mutas are too mobile, they're too fast, they do splash dmg....
This is not fair
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On November 07 2011 08:10 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units. cant mass banshee and win? Howbout Nestea vs SC in GSL RO32 this season?
nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that?
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On November 07 2011 08:17 headdshot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:10 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units. cant mass banshee and win? Howbout Nestea vs SC in GSL RO32 this season? nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that?
nestea was miles ahead, he held off all in #1 was on 2 base, had a macro hatch, good saturation, SC was on 1 base still.
To guy a few posts above: the game is not balanced around team games. Your 2v2 expirience is not aplicable here where SC2 is designed to be a 1v1 game.
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United States15275 Posts
On November 07 2011 08:17 headdshot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:10 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units. cant mass banshee and win? Howbout Nestea vs SC in GSL RO32 this season? nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that?
Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them.
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lol his 2v2 experience is applicable in a sense because the units that where supposed to counter mutas arnt doing a good enough job,same problem in 1v1 so yes it is applicable.Again how do banshees kill you if you have muta? did nestea not scout or something,seems standerd to have a spire in zvt.
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On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:17 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:10 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units. cant mass banshee and win? Howbout Nestea vs SC in GSL RO32 this season? nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that? Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them.
So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what.
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United States15275 Posts
On November 07 2011 08:23 headdshot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:17 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:10 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units. cant mass banshee and win? Howbout Nestea vs SC in GSL RO32 this season? nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that? Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them. So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what.
Of course he didn't scout it. sC was turtling and fended off any possible overlord scout with marines all around his base's perimeter. If he had raced to lair he may have had mutalisks in time but would have lost to any marine-tank all-in.
I'm not talking about mutalisks vs banshees.
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On November 07 2011 08:23 headdshot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:17 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:10 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units. cant mass banshee and win? Howbout Nestea vs SC in GSL RO32 this season? nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that? Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them. So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what.
he was denied overlord scouting because an overlod will never get past a marine when a T is all inning off 1 base. He saw banshees as soon as they left SCs base and started spores, he had a spire coming but the spire was a bit late (you cant go early lair while T is sitting on1 base) he made a bunch of extra queens and spores and still lost to 1 base mass banshees.
Honestly I don't know how this thread is even open still, the discussion is just silly, the level of discussion in this thread from people like headdshot is on the same level as blizzards forums, I really expected better discussion from a thread on TL.
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EPT
