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On November 07 2011 09:40 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:31 Meff wrote:On November 07 2011 09:16 Geovu wrote:On November 07 2011 08:46 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 07 2011 08:36 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:29 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:27 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:23 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:
[quote]
Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them. So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what. Of course he didn't scout it. sC was turtling and fended off any possible overlord scout with marines all around his base's perimeter. I'm not talking about mutalisks. lol then this has nothing to do with the muta,were talking about 30 mutas and how stupid it is trying to defend againts it while putting pressure on the expanding zerg, not some gimmicky 1 base all in. you said how "i cant just mass banshees and win so zerg shouldnt be able to mass mutas" at whcih point we proved you wrong by providing a game where mass banshees let a lower level player beat a higher level player (nestea), that is why it's relevent. mass banshees is no where near as viable as mass muta, its gimmicky how many people you see doing it? nestea got cought with his pants down, how does a 1 base banshee all in even compare to mass muta.I If you are letting Zerg get "mass mutas" to the point where you think it's OP. You haven't been pressuring him enough in the early game, hence already lost. It's not like Zerg can pop 3000 gas out of his ass at any given time. That is such BS, the only reason people say that nowadays is because people like yourself have spouted that nonsense since the beta. I have witnessed hundreds of games where Zerg got 30+ mutas, his opponent pressuring him or not doesn't mean shit if Zerg just plays well and focuses on eventually making mutalisks. Stop for a moment. Think logically. You're saying that if Z plays well enough, they can mass up 30 mutas despite pressure. I'd like to point out that if Z plays well enough, they can do pretty much anything. This is obvious: if somebody (P, Z or T) plays well enough, they can win the game. On November 07 2011 09:16 Geovu wrote:On November 07 2011 08:30 The Final Boss wrote:On November 07 2011 07:48 Ziggitz wrote:On November 07 2011 05:49 headdshot wrote:
so your argumant is that mvp doesnt have a problem with them so its balanced? how bout select getting sht on by idra with mass muta like 2 days ago, or not sure who it was but zvp on talderim last night in gsl, guy gets 20 mutas and toss just has 0 chance of taking his ( supposed easy to take) 3rd,sacking roaches and lings into the tosses army to slow it down so he can do more damage in the main wth the muta . Muta is just to mobile bottom line. Select is a shit terran who doesn't know how to macro, referencing any of his games as a point of imbalance against Terran is a clear indicator you have no idea what you're talking about. He gets shit on in any game that lasts longer than his cheese or overaggressive play intended. No shit the guy who never prepares for the mid or late game gets his ass handed to him in a macro game. There are plenty of ways to deal with mutas as terran, most of them require that you get off your ass and put pressure on the zerg so that he can't keep harassing your bases while you do nothing. You have drops and timing attacks that can comfortably arrive before Mutalisks. Multiple drops prevent the zerg from using his Mutalisks for offensive without taking economic damage and even then two drops at the same time are almost always capable of keeping the pressure on the Zerg instead of the other way around. Expanding towards your opponent lets you keep your main army with marines defending your third, while a single thor and turrets plus a handful of marines can defend your main and natural. any bad engagement by the Zerg allows you to move out and start the base race, which you will win since Mutas will have to deal with turrets and depending on upgrades each marine you have will have more or equal dps compared to a Muta giving you double the dps for the supply. As far as PvZ goes, and I'm not sure if this still holds true but I know that it was at a time, Stalkers would prioritize ground units before Mutalisks. Stalkers should prioritize Mutalisks before they prioritize Zerglings or Roaches. I remember back when Thors would target Medivacs, I would rage wicked hard because I'd tell my army to go attack, and my Thor would be uselessly shooting at a Medivac for the entire fight as his Marauders and Marines destroyed it. Then I'd target a Marine, it would die, and my Thor would go right on back to shooting at the Medivac. I don't really know how much that would help the match-up, but I remember reading that if you attack Stalkers with Zerglings and Mutalisks then they will target the Zerglings first, and force the Protoss to individually target fire the Mutalisks, causing some of them to uselessly try to get through the Zerglings blocking them from getting into range of the targeted Mutalisk. Everything this guy has said is pretty much true. Stalkers always target lings before mutas and it really hurts in big battles. It is manageable enough if Zerg only has ~12 mutas but if the battle gets much bigger than that then it really is not feasible to target micro. As far as I know mutalisks, zerglings and roaches have the same attack priority for stalkers. Since the AI resolves ties in target priority by picking the closest one, it means that the AI will target zerglings before mutalisks. Roaches will not be targeted first, since they sit at a higher (4) range, unless Z micros them closer to the P ball... which is often done, since they're lower range than stalkers and you'd therefore risk them dancing uselessly behind the first line. This should also be why zealot+stalker against ling+muta has a chance, unlike mono-stalker. Zealots block the advance of zerglings, while mutas fly towards the stalkers because their AI sees zealots as lower priority than stalkers (they can't shoot at mutas). Well if what you're saying is true, I think that Blizzard should experiment with the target priorities of the Stalker, to see if changing it would have any effect on Stalkers and in turn the effectiveness of Mutalisks.
People are getting hung up on the 30 mutas thing.
Personally, as a protoss, I fear 12 mutas. That is 144 stalker shots worth of mutas I need to take down and they will never stand any fight. Even with early attack upgrades, it still takes 11 shots per muta to kill them. If the zerg player uses these to deny my third base and keeps adding to the flock while expanding, it can be a slow slid down hill from there. I for one, welcome the idea of an anti air AOE to keep mutas from having an endless lifespan in a game.
As for the unit AI, this is a problem in a straight up fight. This is the same reason why an immortal will shoot at 10 attacking SVCs before shooting a single marauder. Even if you control them and target the mutas, you need to keep forcing them to re-target after each kill. Even if you have a wall of forcefields stopping the lings from getting to you, the stalkers will still shoot at them. You have to babysit the stalkers through the entire fight, shot for shot. I am all for controlling units, but not to the level where I cannot leave them for the entire battle.
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in situations of muta-lign vs zeal sentry and lots of stalekrs, I think ling accually have more dmg than mutalisks. I really would not like my stalkers priotirize mutalisks.
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stimmed marines with medivac are so cost effective at destroying mutas combined with thorrs and turrets it seems like they aren't that great without amazing control. In the early/mid game its hard to both get mutas and stop pushes. Late game top players don't really use them as they transition into either brood lords or ultras.
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On November 07 2011 12:30 adacan wrote:
stimmed marines with medivac are so cost effective at destroying mutas combined with thorrs and turrets it seems like they aren't that great without amazing control. In the early/mid game its hard to both get mutas and stop pushes. Late game top players don't really use them as they transition into either brood lords or ultras.
while that is true, that still ignores the reason for the change, Thors alone are not effective against mutalisks at all. Meaning no matter what you do as a Terran your composition MUST include marines even if they are the lowest tier unit.
You can't go mech vs. Zerg in WoL simply for that reason. Thors do great if they are backed up by turrets, but how is that supposed to help you push across the map? Never mind the fact that they are so slow they can't even cover a 2base Terran.
Frankly reworking the mech AA into a "goliath" style unit (cheaper but less massive) would help Terran Mech alot.
Don't get me wrong, marines definitly are a strong counter to mutas, but they can easily be killed or outflanked by good Zerg players. Idra e.g. usually manages to be cost effective with his muta balls, even against very good Terran players. But there is no other real option in the Terran arsenal. Maybe a funky ghost build with mvp like micro might work as well, but in reality currently the only option Terrans have are marine balls with 1-2 Thors as backup after a certain point.
Protoss on the other hand really have no options after a certain amount of mutas. Stalkers simply don't stack up as well as marines do, and Archons have too short range to be usefull.
Don't get me wrong, i don't think the Tempest is the answer to the protoss problem, i think they should change the Archon AA attack instead, but then i ain't a balance designer for a reason 
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Canada13389 Posts
On November 07 2011 12:46 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 12:30 adacan wrote:
stimmed marines with medivac are so cost effective at destroying mutas combined with thorrs and turrets it seems like they aren't that great without amazing control. In the early/mid game its hard to both get mutas and stop pushes. Late game top players don't really use them as they transition into either brood lords or ultras. while that is true, that still ignores the reason for the change, Thors alone are not effective against mutalisks at all. Meaning no matter what you do as a Terran your composition MUST include marines even if they are the lowest tier unit. You can't go mech vs. Zerg in WoL simply for that reason. Thors do great if they are backed up by turrets, but how is that supposed to help you push across the map? Never mind the fact that they are so slow they can't even cover a 2base Terran. Frankly reworking the mech AA into a "goliath" style unit (cheaper but less massive) would help Terran Mech alot. Don't get me wrong, marines definitly are a strong counter to mutas, but they can easily be killed or outflanked by good Zerg players. Idra e.g. usually manages to be cost effective with his muta balls, even against very good Terran players. But there is no other real option in the Terran arsenal. Maybe a funky ghost build with mvp like micro might work as well, but in reality currently the only option Terrans have are marine balls with 1-2 Thors as backup after a certain point. Protoss on the other hand really have no options after a certain amount of mutas. Stalkers simply don't stack up as well as marines do, and Archons have too short range to be usefull. Don't get me wrong, i don't think the Tempest is the answer to the protoss problem, i think they should change the Archon AA attack instead, but then i ain't a balance designer for a reason
Patch 1.5
Protoss Changes
- Archons now throw hadoukens as their AA attack with 6 range
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On November 07 2011 12:50 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 12:46 Tula wrote:On November 07 2011 12:30 adacan wrote:
stimmed marines with medivac are so cost effective at destroying mutas combined with thorrs and turrets it seems like they aren't that great without amazing control. In the early/mid game its hard to both get mutas and stop pushes. Late game top players don't really use them as they transition into either brood lords or ultras. while that is true, that still ignores the reason for the change, Thors alone are not effective against mutalisks at all. Meaning no matter what you do as a Terran your composition MUST include marines even if they are the lowest tier unit. You can't go mech vs. Zerg in WoL simply for that reason. Thors do great if they are backed up by turrets, but how is that supposed to help you push across the map? Never mind the fact that they are so slow they can't even cover a 2base Terran. Frankly reworking the mech AA into a "goliath" style unit (cheaper but less massive) would help Terran Mech alot. Don't get me wrong, marines definitly are a strong counter to mutas, but they can easily be killed or outflanked by good Zerg players. Idra e.g. usually manages to be cost effective with his muta balls, even against very good Terran players. But there is no other real option in the Terran arsenal. Maybe a funky ghost build with mvp like micro might work as well, but in reality currently the only option Terrans have are marine balls with 1-2 Thors as backup after a certain point. Protoss on the other hand really have no options after a certain amount of mutas. Stalkers simply don't stack up as well as marines do, and Archons have too short range to be usefull. Don't get me wrong, i don't think the Tempest is the answer to the protoss problem, i think they should change the Archon AA attack instead, but then i ain't a balance designer for a reason Patch 1.5 Protoss Changes - Archons now throw hadoukens as their AA attack with 6 range
Actually make archon a better AA isn't a bad idea at all. Or make them a bit smaller so they could moving around the mineral lines a bit easier
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Toss had same problems with mutas in vanilla SC1. Thats why Corsair joined Toss arsenal in BW. It's actually an solution to Toss, a unit which:
- Is faster then muta
- Has AA splash
- Outrange muta
- Can kite muta without being hit
It should also be low-tier unit making it viable counter to even early muta play.
For terran, Goliath with large AA splash is nice solution too. Important thing is good damage scaling, this unit after reaching critical mass (let say not more then 600m/400g invested on this unit) should be able to counter nearly unlimited numbers of Muta.
If none of these things happen, best solution to Muta is 20-25% speed nerf, making mutas possible to catch even by slower units.
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On November 07 2011 16:29 Exarian wrote:
Toss had same problems with mutas in vanilla SC1. Thats why Corsair joined Toss arsenal in BW. It's actually an solution to Toss, a unit which:
- Is faster then muta
- Has AA splash
- Outrange muta
- Can kite muta without being hit
It should also be low-tier unit making it viable counter to even early muta play.
For terran, Goliath with large AA splash is nice solution too. Important thing is good damage scaling, this unit after reaching critical mass (let say not more then 600m/400g invested on this unit) should be able to counter nearly unlimited numbers of Muta.
If none of these things happen, best solution to Muta is 20-25% speed nerf, making mutas possible to catch even by slower units.
how am i meant to catch a warp prism if my mutas are 20% slower though..
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Why didn't blizzard just make the phoenix do splash damage and maybe also increase its range from 4 to 5? Would be a hell of a lot easier than making a whole new unit. Buffing storm in some way, such as increasing the speed at which the damage is dealt, would also help a lot against muta balls.
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On November 07 2011 10:01 Geovu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:31 Meff wrote:On November 07 2011 09:16 Geovu wrote:On November 07 2011 08:46 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 07 2011 08:36 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:29 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:27 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:23 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:
[quote]
Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them. So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what. Of course he didn't scout it. sC was turtling and fended off any possible overlord scout with marines all around his base's perimeter. I'm not talking about mutalisks. lol then this has nothing to do with the muta,were talking about 30 mutas and how stupid it is trying to defend againts it while putting pressure on the expanding zerg, not some gimmicky 1 base all in. you said how "i cant just mass banshees and win so zerg shouldnt be able to mass mutas" at whcih point we proved you wrong by providing a game where mass banshees let a lower level player beat a higher level player (nestea), that is why it's relevent. mass banshees is no where near as viable as mass muta, its gimmicky how many people you see doing it? nestea got cought with his pants down, how does a 1 base banshee all in even compare to mass muta.I If you are letting Zerg get "mass mutas" to the point where you think it's OP. You haven't been pressuring him enough in the early game, hence already lost. It's not like Zerg can pop 3000 gas out of his ass at any given time. That is such BS, the only reason people say that nowadays is because people like yourself have spouted that nonsense since the beta. I have witnessed hundreds of games where Zerg got 30+ mutas, his opponent pressuring him or not doesn't mean shit if Zerg just plays well and focuses on eventually making mutalisks. Stop for a moment. Think logically. You're saying that if Z plays well enough, they can mass up 30 mutas despite pressure. I'd like to point out that if Z plays well enough, they can do pretty much anything. This is obvious: if somebody (P, Z or T) plays well enough, they can win the game. That was the point I was trying to make, dunno why you appear to think I was saying something else. I also wasn't trying to imply that after Zerg makes 30 mutalisks they autowin. That's obviously not true (Terrans don't win as soon as the tech lab on their starport finishes in TvP); I was simply trying to dispel the myth that "If you play properly (E.G. Pressure Zerg) you can prevent him from making mutalisks, period." The "Well if you let him get 'X' you just lose" idea is simply not true, at least not in the manner most people use it. People used to say "If you let Protoss too many Void Rays AND Collosus, you just lose." That's obviously not true now and it wasn't true at any point in time, it's just at that certain point in the metagame (Whether due to patches or not I'm not going to argue, I don't really care) if Protoss DID happen to get to that point in the game, they usually had a very high likelyhood of winning. In my opinion PvZ is in a similar situation, except with mutalisks. Obviously it's a bit different, because you can base race and stuff, but from my experience unless Zerg is silly and A-moves into a full Toss army with storm and archons, Zerg has a very high likelyhood of winning.
I honestly think it depends. If you're stuck on 2-3 bases and out of minerals because of the harass, yeah you probably lost. If you have 3 functional mining bases, and you can max out, then it's actually not really a problem in my opinion. Leave a few HTs and a few Archons with mass Cannons at home and push with your main army. I'm much more scared of Infestor/Broodlord/Corrupter. T_T
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On November 07 2011 12:50 ZeromuS wrote:
Patch 1.5
Protoss Changes
- Archons now throw hadoukens as their AA attack with 6 range
That's actually an amazing idea.
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how am i meant to catch a warp prism if my mutas are 20% slower though..:
Muta speed: 3.75
Warp Prism speed: 2.5
Muta speed after 20% nerf: 3.0
Warp Prism speed with upgrade: 3.375
So UPGRADED warp prisms are ~10% faster then mutas...
... BUT have significantly worse acceleration (3.75 vs 2.125)
Which mean Mutas will not have problems with catching Warp prisms. Outmicroing mutas with UPGRADED warp prisms will be possible, but VERY difficult.
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3791 Posts
On November 07 2011 16:57 Exarian wrote:Muta speed: 3.75 Warp Prism speed: 2.5 Muta speed after 20% nerf: 3.0 Warp Prism speed with upgrade: 3.375 So UPGRADED warp prisms are ~10% faster then mutas... ... BUT have significantly worse acceleration (3.75 vs 2.125) Which mean Mutas will not have problems with catching Warp prisms. Outmicroing mutas with UPGRADED warp prisms will be possible, but VERY difficult.
Noone ever gonna nerf mutas, especially their speed, that's too fragile unit to nerf. Speed is main thing why they are great, if you reduce it they will be useless, even stimmed marines could catch them.
You can compare mutas to marines, when you got a TON of marines and don't have a unit to deal with it you are dead. Their dps is insane and they are unkillable, but noone gonna nerf marines cause a single damage nerf gonna completelly change all matchups.
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On November 07 2011 16:29 Exarian wrote:
Toss had same problems with mutas in vanilla SC1. Thats why Corsair joined Toss arsenal in BW. It's actually an solution to Toss, a unit which:
- Is faster then muta
- Has AA splash
- Outrange muta
- Can kite muta without being hit
It should also be low-tier unit making it viable counter to even early muta play.
For terran, Goliath with large AA splash is nice solution too. Important thing is good damage scaling, this unit after reaching critical mass (let say not more then 600m/400g invested on this unit) should be able to counter nearly unlimited numbers of Muta.
If none of these things happen, best solution to Muta is 20-25% speed nerf, making mutas possible to catch even by slower units.
Hm... I like your analysize but your Ideas. Are you even serious?
The thing in SC/BW was:
Valkyiries might countered Mutas really hard.
BUT they were expensive and "Scourge-Fodder".
Science Vessels countered Mutas ridiculously hard.
BUT they were REALLY expensive and "Scourge-Fodder" (and losing them was BAD because T needs them in the lategame).
Put one of those 2 Units into SC2 and Mutas or basically "the Spire" would be absolutely useless because there are no Terrors (at least until you reach Broodlord-Tech).
btw:
Gholiats did not counter Mutas "hard".
They were decent because they actually could shoot them, but that was about it ^^.
If none of these things happen, best solution to Muta is 20-25% speed nerf, making mutas possible to catch even by slower units
Congratulations, you just created an absoluetly useless units. I have also some ideas:
Nerf the Marines rate of fire by 20-25%.
Nerf the Tanksplash by 20-25%.
Nerf the Banshees range by 25%.
Look, it's really easy to make a unit totally useless just because you don't like them and think a nerf could be justified...
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I just wanted to bring up that in TvZ in Broodwar Terran ONLY made marines to deal with mutas.... and if zerg got a rediculous amount late game they would get irradiate and vikings... which like so parallels point defence drone and thor splash.... I really don't think Mutas are even close to op ..... for Terrans that are going full on mech... Mass thors are so fine to deal with mutas when you consider u can make turrets anywhere and point defence drones... part of how zergs delt with full on mech in broodwar was to force goliaths then switch to hydra.
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On November 07 2011 16:29 Exarian wrote:
Toss had same problems with mutas in vanilla SC1. Thats why Corsair joined Toss arsenal in BW. It's actually an solution to Toss, a unit which:
- Is faster then muta
- Has AA splash
- Outrange muta
- Can kite muta without being hit
It should also be low-tier unit making it viable counter to even early muta play.
For terran, Goliath with large AA splash is nice solution too. Important thing is good damage scaling, this unit after reaching critical mass (let say not more then 600m/400g invested on this unit) should be able to counter nearly unlimited numbers of Muta.
If none of these things happen, best solution to Muta is 20-25% speed nerf, making mutas possible to catch even by slower units.
so 600/400 should counter unlimited amount of mutas... lol
Then I want to oneshoot unlimited amount of Colossi once I have 600/400 (=4) corruptors, I want to kill unlimited amount of voidrays and phoenix with my 5hydras and I want that all sentries just explode, once a roach burrows under a forcefield.
stop with that bullshit. There is no unit in the game that turns completly useless, once a "counter" is on the field. Why would it be fair with mutalisks?
There is a reason why starcraft is the best RTS out there and it is that there are no superhardcounters in starcraft. You don't just lose because your opponent built 1flamethrower vs your infantry army. In starcraft you could still take out that flame thrower (costinefficient) with more infantry.
If you don't like it, go ahead and play something else. There are plenty of great RTS games out there that work like: Infantry>Air>Tanks>Infantry
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Congratulations, you just created an absoluetly useless units. I have also some ideas:
Nerf the Marines rate of fire by 20-25%.
Nerf the Tanksplash by 20-25%.
Nerf the Banshees range by 25%.
Do you realize mutas after 20% speed nerf are still one of the fastest units in game? Mutas will be still faster then most of their counters on top of flying ability (most of their counters cannot ignore cliffs and building, which is negating their "superior" speed). I prefer adding corsair-like unit to Toss and buffing T AtA then nerfing mutas anyway, but something must be done, and if new units are not going to enter the game, speed nerf is possibly best option.
so 600/400 should counter unlimited amount of mutas... lol
Then I want to oneshoot unlimited amount of Colossi once I have 600/400 (=4) corruptors, I want to kill unlimited amount of voidrays and phoenix with my 5hydras and I want that all sentries just explode, once a roach burrows under a forcefield.
stop with that bullshit. There is no unit in the game that turns completly useless, once a "counter" is on the field. Why would it be fair with mutalisks?
There is a reason why starcraft is the best RTS out there and it is that there are no superhardcounters in starcraft. You don't just lose because your opponent built 1flamethrower vs your infantry army. In starcraft you could still take out that flame thrower (costinefficient) with more infantry.
If you don't like it, go ahead and play something else. There are plenty of great RTS games out there that work like: Infantry>Air>Tanks>Infantry
600/400 able to counter unlimited number of mutas will be perfectly balanced. Let say you have five bases... It mean protecting these bases from mutas will cost you 3000/2000 - more then 20 mutas. If player invest so hard on direct mutas counters, he should feel safe from muta harassement - and Zerg player who is still making mutas and is not trying to counter these units first, should be brutally punished - thats why giving T/P this kind of unit is both balanced and is making game interesting.
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On November 07 2011 18:12 Exarian wrote:Show nested quote +
Congratulations, you just created an absoluetly useless units. I have also some ideas:
Nerf the Marines rate of fire by 20-25%.
Nerf the Tanksplash by 20-25%.
Nerf the Banshees range by 25%.
Do you realize mutas after 20% speed nerf are still one of the fastest units in game? Mutas will be still faster then most of their counters on top of flying ability (most of their counters cannot ignore cliffs and building, which is negating their "superior" speed). I prefer adding corsair-like unit to Toss and buffing T AtA then nerfing mutas anyway, but something must be done, and if new units are not going to enter the game, speed nerf is possibly best option.
yeah and winrates in TvZ go from 51:49 to 70:30... "Finally, we need more terrans winning tournaments, because 1 of 10 tournaments is still won by a nonterran!"
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3791 Posts
On November 07 2011 18:12 Exarian wrote:Show nested quote +
Congratulations, you just created an absoluetly useless units. I have also some ideas:
Nerf the Marines rate of fire by 20-25%.
Nerf the Tanksplash by 20-25%.
Nerf the Banshees range by 25%.
Do you realize mutas after 20% speed nerf are still one of the fastest units in game? Mutas will be still faster then most of their counters on top of flying ability (most of their counters cannot ignore cliffs and building, which is negating their "superior" speed). I prefer adding corsair-like unit to Toss and buffing T AtA then nerfing mutas anyway, but something must be done, and if new units are not going to enter the game, speed nerf is possibly best option.
I can't believe you seriously suggesting nerfing muta speed. Their speed is now perfect to run from stimmed marines, stalkers, infestors on creep. It's not too much and not too low. Or maybe you mean with 20% speed nerf mutas going to still be faster than thors? Well yeah nice logic you got there.
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On November 07 2011 18:12 Exarian wrote:Show nested quote +
Congratulations, you just created an absoluetly useless units. I have also some ideas:
Nerf the Marines rate of fire by 20-25%.
Nerf the Tanksplash by 20-25%.
Nerf the Banshees range by 25%.
Do you realize mutas after 20% speed nerf are still one of the fastest units in game? Mutas will be still faster then most of their counters on top of flying ability (most of their counters cannot ignore cliffs and building, which is negating their "superior" speed). I prefer adding corsair-like unit to Toss and buffing T AtA then nerfing mutas anyway, but something must be done, and if new units are not going to enter the game, speed nerf is possibly best option. Show nested quote +
so 600/400 should counter unlimited amount of mutas... lol
Then I want to oneshoot unlimited amount of Colossi once I have 600/400 (=4) corruptors, I want to kill unlimited amount of voidrays and phoenix with my 5hydras and I want that all sentries just explode, once a roach burrows under a forcefield.
stop with that bullshit. There is no unit in the game that turns completly useless, once a "counter" is on the field. Why would it be fair with mutalisks?
There is a reason why starcraft is the best RTS out there and it is that there are no superhardcounters in starcraft. You don't just lose because your opponent built 1flamethrower vs your infantry army. In starcraft you could still take out that flame thrower (costinefficient) with more infantry.
If you don't like it, go ahead and play something else. There are plenty of great RTS games out there that work like: Infantry>Air>Tanks>Infantry
600/400 able to counter unlimited number of mutas will be perfectly balanced. Let say you have five bases... It mean protecting these bases from mutas will cost you 3000/2000 - more then 20 mutas. If player invest so hard on direct mutas counters, he should feel safe from muta harassement - and Zerg player who is still making mutas and is not trying to counter these units first, should be brutally punished - thats why giving T/P this kind of unit is both balanced and is making game interesting.
show me a game in which a player with 10thors wasn't safe from mutas. This is ridicolous, you have probably never seen 10thors in your whole life.
you can magicbox 1 thor and 2thors. for 3thors you need like 30mutas and you will still lose half of them...
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EPT
