EPTI should make a topic about are pheonix's are op? Destroying the shit out of hydras
Phoenixes are fine (excluding their inability to deal with huge muta swarms)
Hydras are UP, it is one of the most underused units in game.
[D]Are mutalisks overpowered in WOL?? - Page 58
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Exarian
Poland58 Posts
Phoenixes are fine (excluding their inability to deal with huge muta swarms) Hydras are UP, it is one of the most underused units in game. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 07 2011 19:55 hzflank wrote: Why do you have to use so much spin in every post you make? Are you incapable of having a fair discussion? Should someone of posted: Hero opens phoenix into blink, crazymoving goes muta and wins? No, because that is putting a false spin on what happened. What really happened is we saw that Storm is very effective against mutas but the protoss player has more to lose each time he makes a mistake, as templars die faster that mutas. I think we also saw some very bad decision making my Hero, but I suspect that he does not have a great deal of experience vs muta/ling in the late game. because I'm was answering a post that went like: a player beat protoss with mutas-->mutas OP But if you look at the whole game, you will see that crazymoving got a big advantage and would have probably won that game with another style as well. I've put my opinion on mutalisks in ZvP and in general in a lot of posts: If you're not keeping up in economy with mutaplayers, you lose. If you do, your chances are rather good to win in the endgame. (--> macroterrans keep on having extremly good win percentages vs mutalisk play; Mutalisks were close to unplayable in ZvP when zergs went 2base vs 2base) And I'm not even denying that mutas might be too good vs Protoss. I'm saying that Protoss players are right now getting outplayed by zergs that go 3hatch vs Protoss players who don't expand before 10mins, but everytime I see a Protoss that goes for a really fast expansion, I feel like the games turns out really well. That is not saying that Protoss should always blindly go 3base, but it took zergs months to figure out what Protoss can do vs 3hatch zerg and now we're just ahead in the metagame, just like Protoss was ahead in the metagame from gsl open season 3 to gsl official season 6 or 7 and zergs had to figure out roach/ling allin, baneling drops, infestorplay, drop play, 3hatch... to get back. | ||
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dapierow
Serbia1316 Posts
On November 07 2011 20:08 Exarian wrote: Phoenixes are fine (excluding their inability to deal with huge muta swarms) Hydras are UP, it is one of the most underused units in game. Doesnt matter, Hydras are supposed to counter pheonixs and they got demolished, and it was 6 hydras vs 5 pheonix's | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 07 2011 20:10 dapierow wrote: Doesnt matter, Hydras are supposed to counter pheonixs and they got demolished, and it was 6 hydras vs 5 pheonix's and 5phoenix cost a shit more than 6hydras, so it's OK that phoenixes are fine against them in those amounts... | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12071 Posts
On November 07 2011 20:10 dapierow wrote: Doesnt matter, Hydras are supposed to counter pheonixs and they got demolished, and it was 6 hydras vs 5 pheonix's Pheonix's have a spell which lifts hydras up. It's their way of dealing with their counter which means you shouldn't throw small numbers of units at them. Works the same for Marines/Pheonix and ti's a good thing as it means more micro potential for the pheonixs. | ||
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dapierow
Serbia1316 Posts
On November 07 2011 20:11 Big J wrote: and 5phoenix cost a shit more than 6hydras, so it's OK that phoenixes are fine against them in those amounts... Knew I never should have entered this topic, full of idiots that do not know what they are talking about bye. User was warned for this post | ||
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headdshot
43 Posts
On November 07 2011 20:10 dapierow wrote: Doesnt matter, Hydras are supposed to counter pheonixs and they got demolished, and it was 6 hydras vs 5 pheonix's lol who says hydra has to counter pheonix,infestor counters them well enough + pheonix do extra to light (hydra),is there some list of counters or something? | ||
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Exarian
Poland58 Posts
Pheonix's have a spell which lifts hydras up. It's their way of dealing with their counter which means you shouldn't throw small numbers of units at them. Works the same for Marines/Pheonix and ti's a good thing as it means more micro potential for the pheonixs. nevertheless hydras are underpowered in their current state and IMO speed upgrade at HIVE tech in HotS is not going to help much. IMO Hydras need at least 90 hp, maybe more. | ||
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Neurosis
United States893 Posts
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On November 07 2011 20:01 Exarian wrote: So basically he killed nothing worth minerals... while player playing muta usually have more minerals then he need. You are thinking it wrong, it's all about larva in ZvP and ZvT. Doesn't matter how much you kill in worth of minerals so much if you are limiting the zerg use for the larva. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 07 2011 20:24 Mehukannu wrote: You are thinking it wrong, it's all about larva in ZvP and ZvT. Doesn't matter how much you kill in worth of minerals so much if you are limiting the zerg use for the larva. no it's not when you're on 3base with 3-4hatches. You have 30-40larva/min. At the time the airharass starts you usually can't even use all those larva to produce drones/zerglings, because you don't have the economy at that time. The spores are a small deal. They slow the zerg down, but only as much or even less as the air opening slows the protoss down, which is a good deal for the zerg, because he is playing of 3base eco vs 2base eco, therefore every moment that passes his advantage grows. | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On November 07 2011 20:35 Big J wrote: no it's not when you're on 3base with 3-4hatches. You have 30-40larva/min. At the time the airharass starts you usually can't even use all those larva to produce drones/zerglings, because you don't have the economy at that time. The spores are a small deal. They slow the zerg down, but only as much or even less as the air opening slows the protoss down, which is a good deal for the zerg, because he is playing of 3base eco vs 2base eco, therefore every moment that passes his advantage grows. That is all nice and stuff, but the reason for harass against zerg is to limit their use for larva like force them to make 10 drones to replace the 10 drones they just lost. It is really stupid to think that you are killing those drones for economic damage when the zerg can just get those 10 drones instantly. Also you are not considering that is buys you time to get army up and move out to put pressure on zerg so he can't go harass you with mutas while his natural is in danger. Should also add that queens are important targets too since killing them reduce the amount larva zerg will be able to use. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 07 2011 20:48 Mehukannu wrote: That is all nice and stuff, but the reason for harass against zerg is to limit their use for larva like force them to make 10 drones to replace the 10 drones they just lost. It is really stupid to think that you are killing those drones for economic damage when the zerg can just get those 10 drones instantly. Also you are not considering that is buys you time to get army up and move out to put pressure on zerg so he can't go harass you with mutas while his natural is in danger. Should also add that queens are important targets too since killing them reduce the amount larva zerg will be able to use. I'm not saying that it's bad to force spores. I'm saying you need to do a little more with an air opening, because it's so expensive. For hellions it's fine to not do damage and only force some 2spines and deny creep, because hellions are rather cheap and you're going to use the reactor and factory anyways. But if you're not going to use the stargate further and you're investing in those extremly expensive gasheavy units, you have to make them count. That's exactly why Doa and Wolf said that there are not many protoss' who can pull that stargate opening off on prolevel, and it looks like Hero didn't in that first game. Yes he killed 2queens, but even those kills occured rather late (=more time for them to work), but I think you need to kill something like 5drones early as well, if you want to come out even (/ahead because you have mapcontrol). | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On November 07 2011 21:01 Big J wrote: I'm not saying that it's bad to force spores. I'm saying you need to do a little more with an air opening, because it's so expensive. For hellions it's fine to not do damage and only force some 2spines and deny creep, because hellions are rather cheap and you're going to use the reactor and factory anyways. But if you're not going to use the stargate further and you're investing in those extremly expensive gasheavy units, you have to make them count. That's exactly why Doa and Wolf said that there are not many protoss' who can pull that stargate opening off on prolevel, and it looks like Hero didn't in that first game. Yes he killed 2queens, but even those kills occured rather late (=more time for them to work), but I think you need to kill something like 5drones early as well, if you want to come out even (/ahead because you have mapcontrol). True enough, but I think that what is the problem for protoss not so much for terrans. Protoss on the other hand doesn't seem to have any good, cheap and reliable way to deal that kind of damage early in the without over committing, which is something I hope blizzard manages to fix in HotS. | ||
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Divergence
Canada363 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + But seriously I think this game is what Blizzard has in mind when they say P needs an easy counter to the muta. The problem is, I'm not sure if the Tempest is the right solution. What could happen is Hero gets a Tempest at each expo and then turtles and facerolls. gg. It might be too hard of a counter, but honestly we can't say shit until the pros start playing around with it so w/e | ||
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Exarian
Poland58 Posts
True enough, but I think that what is the problem for protoss not so much for terrans. Protoss on the other hand doesn't seem to have any good, cheap and reliable way to deal that kind of damage early in the without over committing, which is something I hope blizzard manages to fix in HotS. Slow-moving short-ranged expensive hight-tech lategame unit is not going to help toss against mutas. Blizzard noticed huge balance problem with mutas, but gave us incorrect response - so it is going to be one useless lategame unit (carrier) replaced with another (tempest). IMO best solution would be KEEPING carrier, but giving interceptors two major buffs: - Fast Regenerating shields (like 10/s) - Damage changed from 5x2 to 5(+5 vs Light)x1 (+1/1 per upgrade) with 1.5 splash Then there is no reason of introducing Tempest, since Carrier is fixed and is actually helping Toss Lategame against Zerg (especially mutas) | ||
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
IMO best solution would be KEEPING carrier, but giving interceptors two major buffs: - Fast Regenerating shields (like 10/s) - Damage changed from 5x2 to 5(+5 vs Light)x1 (+1/1 per upgrade) with 1.5 splash While obliterating all ground units and being quite save from corruptors. So basically you want a flying colossus which is immune to corruptors. Good idea =) | ||
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Exarian
Poland58 Posts
While obliterating all ground undits and being quite save from corruptors. So basically you want a flying colossus which is immune to corruptors. Good idea =) If you read these stats more carefully, you will notice each interceptor hit do only 5 stock damage to corrupters. Ok, with splash... but corruptor has 2 armor. So each interceptor hit will do only 3 damage to corruptors. So if you want to kill stacking swarm of corruptors with 8 interceptor salvos you need at least 9 Carriers... and hope enemy will keep all of them in 1.5 area radius... How can you call it "corruptor immunity?" | ||
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GhostFall
United States830 Posts
On November 07 2011 21:16 Divergence wrote: Liquid'Hero vs Crazymoving Code A Round of 48 says hello. + Show Spoiler + But seriously I think this game is what Blizzard has in mind when they say P needs an easy counter to the muta. The problem is, I'm not sure if the Tempest is the right solution. What could happen is Hero gets a Tempest at each expo and then turtles and facerolls. gg. It might be too hard of a counter, but honestly we can't say shit until the pros start playing around with it so w/e You honestly think a 300/300 2.25 Speed unit that requires a fleet beacon was going to stop that many mutas that early? Heres a better solution, phoenix upgrade at fleetbeacon. tuh duh. No need for tempest. Hell reinstate KA, no need to phoenix or tempest. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On November 07 2011 20:11 Big J wrote: and 40 mutas cost a shit more than 30 stalkers, so it's OK that mutas are fine against them in those amounts... Thread solved! | ||
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