the time i need to get to storm and those couple of hts, i cannot move out will have much less stalker due to high gas investment.
The biggest problem most ignore is the simcity build in your base. On the on side u want small entrys to defend against sling and on the other room for moving units out. It happened often enough to me i just went out for a counter push, and he immediately flys into mine base, oneshots all cannons and kill all my eco, means he just needs to hold me.
Which works perfect beacuse of the way slings perform on small groups of toss units.
I will only win if the Zerg dont harass at all with his muta and i got a 2 0 upgrade advantage.
In the moment muta are flying roaches just a little bit more expensive. And we know how well Toss works against them (before immortal patch)
On November 08 2011 00:11 Vamp wrote: Imho a few perfectly placed storms and mutalisks are history.
Play at my level and you will understand how wrong you are. First they won't engage you, they will just basetrade. Secondly, they dodge storms EZPZ. Storms suck vs muta, its just so painful.
I play at High diamond MMR'd vs dia up to high masters, what do you play at? Gm ?
Imho storm is one of the best muta deterrants in the game aside from thor/fungal.
What you say is partly true if they see templars then they are less likely to engage them, but if you leave a few dotted around your main / expansions. Then you are free to attack with your main force knowing that you have atleast some chance of fending off the mass mutas at your base. Aslong as you don't leave them blatently on view on the outer side of your mineral lines you have atleast some chance of getting off a few good unexpected storms. You can guarantee it will make the Z think twice before attacking your base again.
On the other side of things when zerg gets to that critical mass. If you have templars with your attacking army zerg has two choices, let you kill everything and never engage your army or fly over your army to prevent you from storming them. You have a choice then to either storm yourself and move your army out of the storm or try to storm them as they are moving towards your army. Either way the storms are going to inflict enough damage to help your army finnish off the mutas.
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
See WhiteRa vs Ret game 1, it's typical of what I'm speaking about:
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
Stop going for 7 gate timing pushes then? If you don't do damage you ARE behind the Zerg. Try to put on lighter pressure, maybe warp prism harass, while taking a third.
The prism harass clearly isn't meant to kill them or even be crippling them. Talking about mutas specifically, personally I feel if you saw all those spines and went for 7gate blink you're ahead, and you can tech to archon very shortly after and hard counter him (don't get templar early on with storm, you want archons + blink stalkers). At that point I feel protoss is so insanely far ahead. However, if you decided to go robo Zerg can easily gain an advantage.
I will post a replay to give you an idea how zergs play mutas at high level. http://www.esl.eu/benelux/sc2/1on1/iemfinalnl/#/benelux/sc2/1on1/iemfinalnl/download/25872792/ This was played yesterday in IEM Kiev qualifier between Hjop(Z) and Grubby (P). I know hjop really well since he is a pratice partner of mine, and he plays mass muta pvz even before it became common. In this game grubby opens up with stargate after FFE, and transitions into mass archon(8+)/ templar/zealot and phoenix. Hjop takes a hidden expo but grubby scouts it and kills it. It is now 3 base vs 3 base. Hjop wins the game. Notice the following things for zergs: take hidden expos, mass muta and spine. Never engage protoss, just basetrade (notice how there are nearly no straight up battles in this 34 min long game). Dodge stroms, you might take 20 health damage, but that doesn't matter rly.
On November 08 2011 01:53 AA.spoon wrote: I will post a replay to give you an idea how zergs play mutas at high level. http://www.esl.eu/benelux/sc2/1on1/iemfinalnl/#/benelux/sc2/1on1/iemfinalnl/download/25872792/ This was played yesterday in IEM Kiev qualifier between Hjop(Z) and Grubby (P). I know hjop really well since he is a pratice partner of mine, and he plays mass muta pvz even before it became common. In this game grubby opens up with stargate after FFE, and transitions into mass archon(8+)/ templar/zealot and phoenix. Hjop takes a hidden expo but grubby scouts it and kills it. It is now 3 base vs 3 base. Hjop wins the game. Notice the following things for zergs: take hidden expos, mass muta and spine. Never engage protoss, just basetrade (notice how there are nearly no straight up battles in this 34 min long game). Dodge stroms, you might take 20 health damage, but that doesn't matter rly.
Mass archon , while strong in a straight up engagement, is very poor at fending off mass muta without decent amount of blink stalker support. I have no idea about using phoenix instead of blink stalker in that situation, as I've never tried it, but I presume that was the issue.
Stop going for 7 gate timing pushes then? If you don't do damage you ARE behind the Zerg. Try to put on lighter pressure, maybe warp prism harass, while taking a third.
The prism harass clearly isn't meant to kill them or even be crippling them. Talking about mutas specifically, personally I feel if you saw all those spines and went for 7gate blink you're ahead, and you can tech to archon very shortly after and hard counter him (don't get templar early on with storm, you want archons + blink stalkers). At that point I feel protoss is so insanely far ahead. However, if you decided to go robo Zerg can easily gain an advantage.
thats funny, isnt this what whitera tried to do, and oh look he got no cannons, got no stalkers, lost instantly
Also Phoenix wont do that much of a change, because u need to micro them out of range from the mutas, EVERYTIME, or muta will rock em
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
Stop going for 7 gate timing pushes then? If you don't do damage you ARE behind the Zerg. Try to put on lighter pressure, maybe warp prism harass, while taking a third.
The prism harass clearly isn't meant to kill them or even be crippling them. Talking about mutas specifically, personally I feel if you saw all those spines and went for 7gate blink you're ahead, and you can tech to archon very shortly after and hard counter him (don't get templar early on with storm, you want archons + blink stalkers). At that point I feel protoss is so insanely far ahead. However, if you decided to go robo Zerg can easily gain an advantage.
thats funny, isnt this what whitera tried to do, and oh look he got no cannons, got no stalkers, lost instantly
Also Phoenix wont do that much of a change, because u need to micro them out of range from the mutas, EVERYTIME, or muta will rock em
I don't even know what you're trying to say. Please be more thorough.
On October 25 2011 18:21 Itsmedudeman wrote: Umm, the point of the warhound replacing the thor is only for mech play. Mentioning the marine is pointless. The idea was that a mass of mutas would own up a bunch of a thors with magicboxing and essentially be the counter to mech and I guess they didn't want that.
For ZvP if you can amass 30 or so mutas it becomes incredibly difficult to deal with and you're basically forced to have half your army left in your base and if you leave you're basically forced into a base race. I don't think the tempest is the best answer here, it should always have been the phoenix, but mass mutas is definitely not easy to deal with.
I personally can't say I like either of the 2 new units in their new roles because they don't seem very interesting and microable.
Mech is already really hard to deal with, getting mutas out to do some dmg before they turtle is key or else your just gonna get rolled. Neural parasite nerf fucked us once so
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
So much stuff being said. I think people are missing the point.
The warhound was introduced because the Thor was too bulky to move through and would often get caught inbetween buildings. The warhounds is slimer and faster but with less damage overall.
The Tempest is a viable unit although costly. It deals an insane amount of AOE damage which can wipe mass vikings of terrans try to snipe colossis.
The mass muta topic is relevant of the amount of mutas in play. Normally, zergs get about 12 of them which serves as harassment units and provides some map control and some damage to the opponent's economy. The issue is when they happen in very large number (30+) which is becoming common in some FFE scenarios of protoss.
You can use archons, blink stalkers (blink timing got nerfed), HT with psistorm (KA got nerfed so they have to be on the ground real early) but when such a large amount of mutas hits your base, its nearly autoloss for protoss. The issue is you have 30 mutas hitting 90 units every round, it goes out quick and the protoss units are too slow to deal enough damage. Pheonixes are good vs mutas in small numbers but not against large numbers, they just die.
Currently, there is no response for heavy muta play for protoss in PvZ.
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that crazymoving was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
Man everytime I read you post, you shit on Protoss players. You say the same thing over and over.
For Hero vs crazymoving, you should know mutas aren't a killing blow unit. The games are going to be longer because mutas can't kill a Protoss army but it does build up Zerg's advantage. For game 2, why are you talking about blind counters? So do you suggest building 2 SGs every game and pray Zerg goes mutas?
Can I quote the game where MC played that Zerg on crossfire and killed both his natural and his 3rd and despite being on 2 base lost because of the muta harass? Yes MC made mistakes, but that's how I see mutas in PvZ right now. Keep them in their base while harassing (picking off a probe or two here and there and a few pylons) while macroing and overrunning them later.
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
You keep saying hero was way behind... he wasnt way behind (maybe a little ) he took a 11 minute or so 3rd he lost no pheonixes in the harrass he lost 4 zelots to his zelot timing and forced like what 30 roaches? pls tell me how hes so behind... he started to really fall behind when those mutas got to his base and thats it.he had the perfect defense and still lost a tonn of probes,hero played so well that game sending parts of his army to deni bases while still defending in his main, while the zerg herp derped around his base with his stupid mutas... how can you even argue anything, that zerg played like shit in game 1 compared to hero, yet he still wins, did you see his creep spread at 30 minutes? 0 tumers.
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
Man everytime I read you post, you shit on Protoss players. You say the same thing over and over.
For Hero vs crazymoving, you should know mutas aren't a killing blow unit. The games are going to be longer because mutas can't kill a Protoss army but it does build up Zerg's advantage. For game 2, why are you talking about blind counters? So do you suggest building 2 SGs every game and pray Zerg goes mutas?
Can I quote the game where MC played that Zerg on crossfire and killed both his natural and his 3rd and despite being on 2 base lost because of the muta harass? Yes MC made mistakes, but that's how I see mutas in PvZ right now. Keep them in their base while harassing (picking off a probe or two here and there and a few pylons) while macroing and overrunning them later.
As if you said anything knew. But everytime I bring examples of good antimutaplay none of you Protoss players even responds to them. + Show Spoiler +
I wrote about 4games that were won 3times by Protoss players. 2times involving mutalisks directly, one time involving a player who went a stargate build and beat a hydraplayer, that wanted to go mutalisks, but saw that he was already blindcountered. Yet all you do is point out that 1game was lost vs mutalisks... But I guess I should start to say tanks are imba, everytime a zerg loses to a terran that goes tanks, and just deny that there are a lot of games in which the zerg wins even though terran went tanks.
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
You keep saying hero was way behind... he wasnt way behind (maybe a little ) he took a 11 minute or so 3rd he lost no pheonixes in the harrass he lost 4 zelots to his zelot timing and forced like what 30 roaches? pls tell me how hes so behind... he started to really fall behind when those mutas got to his base and thats it.he had the perfect defense and still lost a tonn of probes,hero played so well that game sending parts of his army to deni bases while still defending in his main, while the zerg herp derped around his base with his stupid mutas... how can you even argue anything, that zerg played like shit in game 1 compared to hero, yet he still wins, did you see his creep spread at 30 minutes? 0 tumers.
I agree. Creep spread is a key component of muta play and the lack of it really showed a poor understanding of zerg.
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
You keep saying hero was way behind... he wasnt way behind (maybe a little ) he took a 11 minute or so 3rd he lost no pheonixes in the harrass he lost 4 zelots to his zelot timing and forced like what 30 roaches? pls tell me how hes so behind... he started to really fall behind when those mutas got to his base and thats it.he had the perfect defense and still lost a tonn of probes,hero played so well that game sending parts of his army to deni bases while still defending in his main, while the zerg herp derped around his base with his stupid mutas... how can you even argue anything, that zerg played like shit in game 1 compared to hero, yet he still wins, did you see his creep spread at 30 minutes? 0 tumers.
yeah, because creep spreading is an important part of your strategy when your army flies... Hey, did you see that game in which seal had creep all over the map vs bomber on bel'shire beach. And I mean everywhere. I guess every zerg plays shit compared to seal, because noone has as much creep as he has... Ofc he wasn't focusing on creeping around the map, because he was doing amazing mutaharass. You know, there are a lot of terran players out there (f.e select, TLO), that stop producing scvs somewhere around 55, because they are too busy dropping all over the map and doing multipronged attacks. Yet everyone keeps talking about their perfect micro and stuff.
And yes, hero was way behind. Just making up random numbers of roaches doesn't make it happen in the past. 30roaches are what? the income of 70drones mining of 3bases in 1min? Hell, crazymoving was WAY ahead if he was able to react to that zealot pressure with 30roaches...
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
Man everytime I read you post, you shit on Protoss players. You say the same thing over and over.
For Hero vs crazymoving, you should know mutas aren't a killing blow unit. The games are going to be longer because mutas can't kill a Protoss army but it does build up Zerg's advantage. For game 2, why are you talking about blind counters? So do you suggest building 2 SGs every game and pray Zerg goes mutas?
Can I quote the game where MC played that Zerg on crossfire and killed both his natural and his 3rd and despite being on 2 base lost because of the muta harass? Yes MC made mistakes, but that's how I see mutas in PvZ right now. Keep them in their base while harassing (picking off a probe or two here and there and a few pylons) while macroing and overrunning them later.
As if you said anything knew. But everytime I bring examples of good antimutaplay none of you Protoss players even responds to them. + Show Spoiler +
I wrote about 4games that were won 3times by Protoss players. 2times involving mutalisks directly, one time involving a player who went a stargate build and beat a hydraplayer, that wanted to go mutalisks, but saw that he was already blindcountered. Yet all you do is point out that 1game was lost vs mutalisks... But I guess I should start to say tanks are imba, everytime a zerg loses to a terran that goes tanks, and just deny that there are a lot of games in which the zerg wins even though terran went tanks.
There's been more than "one" game lost to 30+ mutas
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
Man everytime I read you post, you shit on Protoss players. You say the same thing over and over.
For Hero vs crazymoving, you should know mutas aren't a killing blow unit. The games are going to be longer because mutas can't kill a Protoss army but it does build up Zerg's advantage. For game 2, why are you talking about blind counters? So do you suggest building 2 SGs every game and pray Zerg goes mutas?
Can I quote the game where MC played that Zerg on crossfire and killed both his natural and his 3rd and despite being on 2 base lost because of the muta harass? Yes MC made mistakes, but that's how I see mutas in PvZ right now. Keep them in their base while harassing (picking off a probe or two here and there and a few pylons) while macroing and overrunning them later.
As if you said anything knew. But everytime I bring examples of good antimutaplay none of you Protoss players even responds to them. + Show Spoiler +
I wrote about 4games that were won 3times by Protoss players. 2times involving mutalisks directly, one time involving a player who went a stargate build and beat a hydraplayer, that wanted to go mutalisks, but saw that he was already blindcountered. Yet all you do is point out that 1game was lost vs mutalisks... But I guess I should start to say tanks are imba, everytime a zerg loses to a terran that goes tanks, and just deny that there are a lot of games in which the zerg wins even though terran went tanks.
The way you are defending mutas is just way too biased. Yes Protoss can win despite Zerg going mutas without allin-ing but that doesn't mean it's not hard to deal with.
Your advice for dealing with mutas is to expand to 3rd base by 8 mins or go double SG in response. A fast 3rd like that will die if the Zerg makes a bunch of lings. If Protoss goes double SG, Zerg doesn't have to go pure Mutas. Sen for example, goes Spire in RESPONSE to SG, by making mutas and corrupters while macroing and denying bases.
EPT
