On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
See WhiteRa vs Ret game 1, it's typical of what I'm speaking about:
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
You keep saying hero was way behind... he wasnt way behind (maybe a little ) he took a 11 minute or so 3rd he lost no pheonixes in the harrass he lost 4 zelots to his zelot timing and forced like what 30 roaches? pls tell me how hes so behind... he started to really fall behind when those mutas got to his base and thats it.he had the perfect defense and still lost a tonn of probes,hero played so well that game sending parts of his army to deni bases while still defending in his main, while the zerg herp derped around his base with his stupid mutas... how can you even argue anything, that zerg played like shit in game 1 compared to hero, yet he still wins, did you see his creep spread at 30 minutes? 0 tumers.
I agree. Creep spread is a key component of muta play and the lack of it really showed a poor understanding of zerg.
it shows his lack of multitasking,clearly you two are to stupid to see that? are you trying to say creep is not important? defender has to multitask out of the ass to even stand a chance.
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
You keep saying hero was way behind... he wasnt way behind (maybe a little ) he took a 11 minute or so 3rd he lost no pheonixes in the harrass he lost 4 zelots to his zelot timing and forced like what 30 roaches? pls tell me how hes so behind... he started to really fall behind when those mutas got to his base and thats it.he had the perfect defense and still lost a tonn of probes,hero played so well that game sending parts of his army to deni bases while still defending in his main, while the zerg herp derped around his base with his stupid mutas... how can you even argue anything, that zerg played like shit in game 1 compared to hero, yet he still wins, did you see his creep spread at 30 minutes? 0 tumers.
yeah, because creep spreading is an important part of your strategy when your army flies... Hey, did you see that game in which seal had creep all over the map vs bomber on bel'shire beach. And I mean everywhere. I guess every zerg plays shit compared to seal, because noone has as much creep as he has... Ofc he wasn't focusing on creeping around the map, because he was doing amazing mutaharass. You know, there are a lot of terran players out there (f.e select, TLO), that stop producing scvs somewhere around 55, because they are too busy dropping all over the map and doing multipronged attacks. Yet everyone keeps talking about their perfect micro and stuff.
And yes, hero was way behind. Just making up random numbers of roaches doesn't make it happen in the past. 30roaches are what? the income of 70drones mining of 3bases in 1min? Hell, crazymoving was WAY ahead if he was able to react to that zealot pressure with 30roaches...
lol its funny how the casters and you are jerking off so hard to his harrass, he had him contained with 20 mutas that fly at the speed of light,its not fucking hard,(no im not saying i can do better)if anything was amazing it was heros attempt to deni bases and defend at the same time,not some idiot controling 1 control group of mutas sniping buildings.
I can't believe this thread. Balance is not the issue and the changes in HotS are not being made because mutas are OP, but for better game design.
The thor is a big clunky unit and since they are getting rid of it, there should be a mech unit with AA. The marine and missle turrets will still be the primary way to deal with mutas so there won't be a problem there.
As for PvZ, I for one am tired of all the silly base trading games that happen because of mass muta. It doesn't prove that mutas are UP or OP in that MU, but it does make for stupid games. Hopefully the tempest can stop those type of games
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
You keep saying hero was way behind... he wasnt way behind (maybe a little ) he took a 11 minute or so 3rd he lost no pheonixes in the harrass he lost 4 zelots to his zelot timing and forced like what 30 roaches? pls tell me how hes so behind... he started to really fall behind when those mutas got to his base and thats it.he had the perfect defense and still lost a tonn of probes,hero played so well that game sending parts of his army to deni bases while still defending in his main, while the zerg herp derped around his base with his stupid mutas... how can you even argue anything, that zerg played like shit in game 1 compared to hero, yet he still wins, did you see his creep spread at 30 minutes? 0 tumers.
yeah, because creep spreading is an important part of your strategy when your army flies... Hey, did you see that game in which seal had creep all over the map vs bomber on bel'shire beach. And I mean everywhere. I guess every zerg plays shit compared to seal, because noone has as much creep as he has... Ofc he wasn't focusing on creeping around the map, because he was doing amazing mutaharass. You know, there are a lot of terran players out there (f.e select, TLO), that stop producing scvs somewhere around 55, because they are too busy dropping all over the map and doing multipronged attacks. Yet everyone keeps talking about their perfect micro and stuff.
And yes, hero was way behind. Just making up random numbers of roaches doesn't make it happen in the past. 30roaches are what? the income of 70drones mining of 3bases in 1min? Hell, crazymoving was WAY ahead if he was able to react to that zealot pressure with 30roaches...
lol its funny how the casters and you are jerking off so hard to his harrass, he had him contained with 20 mutas that fly at the speed of light,its not fucking hard,(no im not saying i can do better)if anything was amazing it was heros attempt to deni bases and defend at the same time,not some idiot controling 1 control group of mutas sniping buildings.
Well, maybe you're also just not good enough to defend mutaharass. Like blizzard said: They can't make sure that everything is balanced at all levels of play, but they try to balance the game on highlevel while making it fun on lowlevel. I guess you're unluckily somewhere in between.
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that crazymoving was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
You keep saying hero was way behind... he wasnt way behind (maybe a little ) he took a 11 minute or so 3rd he lost no pheonixes in the harrass he lost 4 zelots to his zelot timing and forced like what 30 roaches? pls tell me how hes so behind... he started to really fall behind when those mutas got to his base and thats it.he had the perfect defense and still lost a tonn of probes,hero played so well that game sending parts of his army to deni bases while still defending in his main, while the zerg herp derped around his base with his stupid mutas... how can you even argue anything, that zerg played like shit in game 1 compared to hero, yet he still wins, did you see his creep spread at 30 minutes? 0 tumers.
I agree. Creep spread is a key component of muta play and the lack of it really showed a poor understanding of zerg.
it shows his lack of multitasking,clearly you two are to stupid to see that? are you trying to say creep is not important? defender has to multitask out of the ass to even stand a chance.
When a zerg is going air and harassing the Toss in his main (delaying a major push) creep spread is one his lowest priorities, like your knowing all the proper uses of "two", "to" and "too", too. I'm not saying creep spread is not important, I'm saying it really doesn't help mutas and in muta heavy play it is not a terribly relevant to say that because it wasn't there the zerg is clearly a bad player.
Also there are strategies that all races possess that are easier to excute as the attacker and are harder to defend properly, looking solely at apm and multitasking. Muta play is one that forces Toss to have to multitask more. I'm sorry you feel this is unfair for your Hero who played "perfectly" while the zerg "herp derped" and still lost. But there are other strategies besides this that are easier to execute as the attacker than to stay alive as the defender (some Terran all-ins come immediately to mind) but that does not mean that these strategies are broken and should be removed. They are simply present in the vast number of scenarios that make SC2 a cool game.
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
You keep saying hero was way behind... he wasnt way behind (maybe a little ) he took a 11 minute or so 3rd he lost no pheonixes in the harrass he lost 4 zelots to his zelot timing and forced like what 30 roaches? pls tell me how hes so behind... he started to really fall behind when those mutas got to his base and thats it.he had the perfect defense and still lost a tonn of probes,hero played so well that game sending parts of his army to deni bases while still defending in his main, while the zerg herp derped around his base with his stupid mutas... how can you even argue anything, that zerg played like shit in game 1 compared to hero, yet he still wins, did you see his creep spread at 30 minutes? 0 tumers.
yeah, because creep spreading is an important part of your strategy when your army flies... Hey, did you see that game in which seal had creep all over the map vs bomber on bel'shire beach. And I mean everywhere. I guess every zerg plays shit compared to seal, because noone has as much creep as he has... Ofc he wasn't focusing on creeping around the map, because he was doing amazing mutaharass. You know, there are a lot of terran players out there (f.e select, TLO), that stop producing scvs somewhere around 55, because they are too busy dropping all over the map and doing multipronged attacks. Yet everyone keeps talking about their perfect micro and stuff.
And yes, hero was way behind. Just making up random numbers of roaches doesn't make it happen in the past. 30roaches are what? the income of 70drones mining of 3bases in 1min? Hell, crazymoving was WAY ahead if he was able to react to that zealot pressure with 30roaches...
lol its funny how the casters and you are jerking off so hard to his harrass, he had him contained with 20 mutas that fly at the speed of light,its not fucking hard,(no im not saying i can do better)if anything was amazing it was heros attempt to deni bases and defend at the same time,not some idiot controling 1 control group of mutas sniping buildings.
Sigh, I really need to stop reading the forums cause I just feel the urge to hug you and tell you it's going be alright.
Both players are good but harassing with mutas isn't the only thing the player is doing. They're also expanding, creep spread, getting gas, research, etc. Same as the other player isn't just defending as you pointed out.
Casters are going go towards the action and muta harass is the action. Don't get upset because the exciting part of the game gets people excited. It's a good thing they're feeling something for the game. You can bring up that they're more going on then just muta harass and you'll be completely right but I just feel the words you choose in your reply makes it hard to take you serious.
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
You keep saying hero was way behind... he wasnt way behind (maybe a little ) he took a 11 minute or so 3rd he lost no pheonixes in the harrass he lost 4 zelots to his zelot timing and forced like what 30 roaches? pls tell me how hes so behind... he started to really fall behind when those mutas got to his base and thats it.he had the perfect defense and still lost a tonn of probes,hero played so well that game sending parts of his army to deni bases while still defending in his main, while the zerg herp derped around his base with his stupid mutas... how can you even argue anything, that zerg played like shit in game 1 compared to hero, yet he still wins, did you see his creep spread at 30 minutes? 0 tumers.
yeah, because creep spreading is an important part of your strategy when your army flies... Hey, did you see that game in which seal had creep all over the map vs bomber on bel'shire beach. And I mean everywhere. I guess every zerg plays shit compared to seal, because noone has as much creep as he has... Ofc he wasn't focusing on creeping around the map, because he was doing amazing mutaharass. You know, there are a lot of terran players out there (f.e select, TLO), that stop producing scvs somewhere around 55, because they are too busy dropping all over the map and doing multipronged attacks. Yet everyone keeps talking about their perfect micro and stuff.
And yes, hero was way behind. Just making up random numbers of roaches doesn't make it happen in the past. 30roaches are what? the income of 70drones mining of 3bases in 1min? Hell, crazymoving was WAY ahead if he was able to react to that zealot pressure with 30roaches...
lol its funny how the casters and you are jerking off so hard to his harrass, he had him contained with 20 mutas that fly at the speed of light,its not fucking hard,(no im not saying i can do better)if anything was amazing it was heros attempt to deni bases and defend at the same time,not some idiot controling 1 control group of mutas sniping buildings.
Well, maybe you're also just not good enough to defend mutaharass. Like blizzard said: They can't make sure that everything is balanced at all levels of play, but they try to balance the game on highlevel while making it fun on lowlevel. I guess you're unluckily somewhere in between.
HerO opened stargate into blink+storm+3rd base. This is literally as perfect of a counter to mutalisks as you can get. HerO never really manages to secure a 4th base, and you really see how pathetic storm is against well controlled mutalisks. You see 20 stalkers blink RIGHT UNDER a ball of mutalisks, and only 2-3 mutalisks die. Imagine of 20 stimmed marines were under a ball of mutalisks. The ball evaporates. Even miscontrolling mutalisks and grazing a ball of marines, the marines will still do more damage than blink stalkers.
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
You keep saying hero was way behind... he wasnt way behind (maybe a little ) he took a 11 minute or so 3rd he lost no pheonixes in the harrass he lost 4 zelots to his zelot timing and forced like what 30 roaches? pls tell me how hes so behind... he started to really fall behind when those mutas got to his base and thats it.he had the perfect defense and still lost a tonn of probes,hero played so well that game sending parts of his army to deni bases while still defending in his main, while the zerg herp derped around his base with his stupid mutas... how can you even argue anything, that zerg played like shit in game 1 compared to hero, yet he still wins, did you see his creep spread at 30 minutes? 0 tumers.
yeah, because creep spreading is an important part of your strategy when your army flies... Hey, did you see that game in which seal had creep all over the map vs bomber on bel'shire beach. And I mean everywhere. I guess every zerg plays shit compared to seal, because noone has as much creep as he has... Ofc he wasn't focusing on creeping around the map, because he was doing amazing mutaharass. You know, there are a lot of terran players out there (f.e select, TLO), that stop producing scvs somewhere around 55, because they are too busy dropping all over the map and doing multipronged attacks. Yet everyone keeps talking about their perfect micro and stuff.
And yes, hero was way behind. Just making up random numbers of roaches doesn't make it happen in the past. 30roaches are what? the income of 70drones mining of 3bases in 1min? Hell, crazymoving was WAY ahead if he was able to react to that zealot pressure with 30roaches...
lol its funny how the casters and you are jerking off so hard to his harrass, he had him contained with 20 mutas that fly at the speed of light,its not fucking hard,(no im not saying i can do better)if anything was amazing it was heros attempt to deni bases and defend at the same time,not some idiot controling 1 control group of mutas sniping buildings.
Well, maybe you're also just not good enough to defend mutaharass. Like blizzard said: They can't make sure that everything is balanced at all levels of play, but they try to balance the game on highlevel while making it fun on lowlevel. I guess you're unluckily somewhere in between.
lol i guess hero isnt good enough to defend muta harras i guess whitra sucks at defending mutas aswell,what are you even talking bout? hero got wrecked by mutas ?
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
You keep saying hero was way behind... he wasnt way behind (maybe a little ) he took a 11 minute or so 3rd he lost no pheonixes in the harrass he lost 4 zelots to his zelot timing and forced like what 30 roaches? pls tell me how hes so behind... he started to really fall behind when those mutas got to his base and thats it.he had the perfect defense and still lost a tonn of probes,hero played so well that game sending parts of his army to deni bases while still defending in his main, while the zerg herp derped around his base with his stupid mutas... how can you even argue anything, that zerg played like shit in game 1 compared to hero, yet he still wins, did you see his creep spread at 30 minutes? 0 tumers.
yeah, because creep spreading is an important part of your strategy when your army flies... Hey, did you see that game in which seal had creep all over the map vs bomber on bel'shire beach. And I mean everywhere. I guess every zerg plays shit compared to seal, because noone has as much creep as he has... Ofc he wasn't focusing on creeping around the map, because he was doing amazing mutaharass. You know, there are a lot of terran players out there (f.e select, TLO), that stop producing scvs somewhere around 55, because they are too busy dropping all over the map and doing multipronged attacks. Yet everyone keeps talking about their perfect micro and stuff.
And yes, hero was way behind. Just making up random numbers of roaches doesn't make it happen in the past. 30roaches are what? the income of 70drones mining of 3bases in 1min? Hell, crazymoving was WAY ahead if he was able to react to that zealot pressure with 30roaches...
lol its funny how the casters and you are jerking off so hard to his harrass, he had him contained with 20 mutas that fly at the speed of light,its not fucking hard,(no im not saying i can do better)if anything was amazing it was heros attempt to deni bases and defend at the same time,not some idiot controling 1 control group of mutas sniping buildings.
Well, maybe you're also just not good enough to defend mutaharass. Like blizzard said: They can't make sure that everything is balanced at all levels of play, but they try to balance the game on highlevel while making it fun on lowlevel. I guess you're unluckily somewhere in between.
HerO opened stargate into blink+storm+3rd base. This is literally as perfect of a counter to mutalisks as you can get. HerO never really manages to secure a 4th base, and you really see how pathetic storm is against well controlled mutalisks. You see 20 stalkers blink RIGHT UNDER a ball of mutalisks, and only 2-3 mutalisks die. Imagine of 20 stimmed marines were under a ball of mutalisks. The ball evaporates. Even miscontrolling mutalisks and grazing a ball of marines, the marines will still do more damage than blink stalkers.
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
You keep saying hero was way behind... he wasnt way behind (maybe a little ) he took a 11 minute or so 3rd he lost no pheonixes in the harrass he lost 4 zelots to his zelot timing and forced like what 30 roaches? pls tell me how hes so behind... he started to really fall behind when those mutas got to his base and thats it.he had the perfect defense and still lost a tonn of probes,hero played so well that game sending parts of his army to deni bases while still defending in his main, while the zerg herp derped around his base with his stupid mutas... how can you even argue anything, that zerg played like shit in game 1 compared to hero, yet he still wins, did you see his creep spread at 30 minutes? 0 tumers.
yeah, because creep spreading is an important part of your strategy when your army flies... Hey, did you see that game in which seal had creep all over the map vs bomber on bel'shire beach. And I mean everywhere. I guess every zerg plays shit compared to seal, because noone has as much creep as he has... Ofc he wasn't focusing on creeping around the map, because he was doing amazing mutaharass. You know, there are a lot of terran players out there (f.e select, TLO), that stop producing scvs somewhere around 55, because they are too busy dropping all over the map and doing multipronged attacks. Yet everyone keeps talking about their perfect micro and stuff.
And yes, hero was way behind. Just making up random numbers of roaches doesn't make it happen in the past. 30roaches are what? the income of 70drones mining of 3bases in 1min? Hell, crazymoving was WAY ahead if he was able to react to that zealot pressure with 30roaches...
lol its funny how the casters and you are jerking off so hard to his harrass, he had him contained with 20 mutas that fly at the speed of light,its not fucking hard,(no im not saying i can do better)if anything was amazing it was heros attempt to deni bases and defend at the same time,not some idiot controling 1 control group of mutas sniping buildings.
Well, maybe you're also just not good enough to defend mutaharass. Like blizzard said: They can't make sure that everything is balanced at all levels of play, but they try to balance the game on highlevel while making it fun on lowlevel. I guess you're unluckily somewhere in between.
HerO opened stargate into blink+storm+3rd base. This is literally as perfect of a counter to mutalisks as you can get. HerO never really manages to secure a 4th base, and you really see how pathetic storm is against well controlled mutalisks. You see 20 stalkers blink RIGHT UNDER a ball of mutalisks, and only 2-3 mutalisks die. Imagine of 20 stimmed marines were under a ball of mutalisks. The ball evaporates. Even miscontrolling mutalisks and grazing a ball of marines, the marines will still do more damage than blink stalkers.
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
You keep saying hero was way behind... he wasnt way behind (maybe a little ) he took a 11 minute or so 3rd he lost no pheonixes in the harrass he lost 4 zelots to his zelot timing and forced like what 30 roaches? pls tell me how hes so behind... he started to really fall behind when those mutas got to his base and thats it.he had the perfect defense and still lost a tonn of probes,hero played so well that game sending parts of his army to deni bases while still defending in his main, while the zerg herp derped around his base with his stupid mutas... how can you even argue anything, that zerg played like shit in game 1 compared to hero, yet he still wins, did you see his creep spread at 30 minutes? 0 tumers.
yeah, because creep spreading is an important part of your strategy when your army flies... Hey, did you see that game in which seal had creep all over the map vs bomber on bel'shire beach. And I mean everywhere. I guess every zerg plays shit compared to seal, because noone has as much creep as he has... Ofc he wasn't focusing on creeping around the map, because he was doing amazing mutaharass. You know, there are a lot of terran players out there (f.e select, TLO), that stop producing scvs somewhere around 55, because they are too busy dropping all over the map and doing multipronged attacks. Yet everyone keeps talking about their perfect micro and stuff.
And yes, hero was way behind. Just making up random numbers of roaches doesn't make it happen in the past. 30roaches are what? the income of 70drones mining of 3bases in 1min? Hell, crazymoving was WAY ahead if he was able to react to that zealot pressure with 30roaches...
lol its funny how the casters and you are jerking off so hard to his harrass, he had him contained with 20 mutas that fly at the speed of light,its not fucking hard,(no im not saying i can do better)if anything was amazing it was heros attempt to deni bases and defend at the same time,not some idiot controling 1 control group of mutas sniping buildings.
Well, maybe you're also just not good enough to defend mutaharass. Like blizzard said: They can't make sure that everything is balanced at all levels of play, but they try to balance the game on highlevel while making it fun on lowlevel. I guess you're unluckily somewhere in between.
HerO opened stargate into blink+storm+3rd base. This is literally as perfect of a counter to mutalisks as you can get. HerO never really manages to secure a 4th base, and you really see how pathetic storm is against well controlled mutalisks. You see 20 stalkers blink RIGHT UNDER a ball of mutalisks, and only 2-3 mutalisks die. Imagine of 20 stimmed marines were under a ball of mutalisks. The ball evaporates. Even miscontrolling mutalisks and grazing a ball of marines, the marines will still do more damage than blink stalkers.
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
You keep saying hero was way behind... he wasnt way behind (maybe a little ) he took a 11 minute or so 3rd he lost no pheonixes in the harrass he lost 4 zelots to his zelot timing and forced like what 30 roaches? pls tell me how hes so behind... he started to really fall behind when those mutas got to his base and thats it.he had the perfect defense and still lost a tonn of probes,hero played so well that game sending parts of his army to deni bases while still defending in his main, while the zerg herp derped around his base with his stupid mutas... how can you even argue anything, that zerg played like shit in game 1 compared to hero, yet he still wins, did you see his creep spread at 30 minutes? 0 tumers.
yeah, because creep spreading is an important part of your strategy when your army flies... Hey, did you see that game in which seal had creep all over the map vs bomber on bel'shire beach. And I mean everywhere. I guess every zerg plays shit compared to seal, because noone has as much creep as he has... Ofc he wasn't focusing on creeping around the map, because he was doing amazing mutaharass. You know, there are a lot of terran players out there (f.e select, TLO), that stop producing scvs somewhere around 55, because they are too busy dropping all over the map and doing multipronged attacks. Yet everyone keeps talking about their perfect micro and stuff.
And yes, hero was way behind. Just making up random numbers of roaches doesn't make it happen in the past. 30roaches are what? the income of 70drones mining of 3bases in 1min? Hell, crazymoving was WAY ahead if he was able to react to that zealot pressure with 30roaches...
lol its funny how the casters and you are jerking off so hard to his harrass, he had him contained with 20 mutas that fly at the speed of light,its not fucking hard,(no im not saying i can do better)if anything was amazing it was heros attempt to deni bases and defend at the same time,not some idiot controling 1 control group of mutas sniping buildings.
Sigh, I really need to stop reading the forums cause I just feel the urge to hug you and tell you it's going be alright.
Both players are good but harassing with mutas isn't the only thing the player is doing. They're also expanding, creep spread, getting gas, research, etc. Same as the other player isn't just defending as you pointed out.
Casters are going go towards the action and muta harass is the action. Don't get upset because the exciting part of the game gets people excited. It's a good thing they're feeling something for the game. You can bring up that they're more going on then just muta harass and you'll be completely right but I just feel the words you choose in your reply makes it hard to take you serious.
im not upset bro, i said 'its funny the casters jerking off to his harras' when defending is much harder..i understand the zergs doing larva injects its quiet oviouse,he had 1 tumor (main to natural) ,ill make it clearer multitasking when there isnt 25 mutas flying around the perimter of your base is 100x easier.(the zerg doesnt have mutas flying around his base he can just put his muta idle for a sec do injects take a base back to harrass)(oviously not as easy as said but try doin injects taking your gases doing you creep spread when theres a flock of mutas flying around your base) Its like tvz, if z doesnt have muta and t starts to mass drop and pick up, wtf can zerg do but base sit and eventually get mutas (if he went other tech first), what if u didnt have mutas to kill the drops? then drop retention would be stupid easy, its like me coming to your base with 4 drop ships killing half your shit then flying out and hanging around your base looking for more openings.(basicly the muta)
As a low masters protoss I find mass mutas still very hard to deal with even if i open stargate and then tech into blink / storm. It makes the harass bearable instead of unbeatable for me but I usually always end up losing a few probes. As someone said earlier you cant really split up your stalkers without them just getting focused. With what blizzard intends to implement for protoss seems to almost make mutas worthless in the future if everything they announced is implemented. Arc Shield doing +To Light and then later tempests as a teir 3 unit. I dont really see mutas having any use at that point (At least as a harass unit).
lol people are still not realizing that hero was already way behind after he did no damage with his chargelot/SG opener...
He forced an absurd amount of roaches, and having already teched to charge and storm started, was stuck to wait until storm finished before he could push out having cut sentries. so he couldnt take a third for a while. THATS why he was so behind, the game was already over at that point. it was 3 base with upcoming 4th/mutas against 2 base just taking a third. you're not supposed to win that as toss.
funny how mutas are suddenly overpowered over a simple metagame shift.
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that crazymoving was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
Ironically, Mutas have been nothing but nerfed since beta, when I insisted they were horribly OP.
And now even after numerous Turret/Phoenix/other changes to make them weaker, they're still considered OP.
And people are finally realizing Zerg has been the strongest race to begin with? Full economic and production control will always have the advantage in equal skilled match-ups.
Also, could someone instead of doing a meaningless "tournament wins" breakdown, just list off the players records and their races? I'm guessing we';ll see the same 10 players bringing up certain races and bringing down others.
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that crazymoving was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
"Hero was relying on chance because he was doing a stargate opening." sigh The problem with muta is that toss has no answer to basetrade.
mutas are just ridiculous on certain maps like tal'darim. it's too difficult for protoss to effectively defend when the 1st and 3rd are located like that
On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote: [quote]
Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them.
So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what.
Of course he didn't scout it. sC was turtling and fended off any possible overlord scout with marines all around his base's perimeter.
I'm not talking about mutalisks.
lol then this has nothing to do with the muta,were talking about 30 mutas and how stupid it is trying to defend againts it while putting pressure on the expanding zerg, not some gimmicky 1 base all in.
you said how "i cant just mass banshees and win so zerg shouldnt be able to mass mutas" at whcih point we proved you wrong by providing a game where mass banshees let a lower level player beat a higher level player (nestea), that is why it's relevent.
mass banshees is no where near as viable as mass muta, its gimmicky how many people you see doing it? nestea got cought with his pants down, how does a 1 base banshee all in even compare to mass muta.I
If you are letting Zerg get "mass mutas" to the point where you think it's OP. You haven't been pressuring him enough in the early game, hence already lost. It's not like Zerg can pop 3000 gas out of his ass at any given time.
That is such BS, the only reason people say that nowadays is because people like yourself have spouted that nonsense since the beta. I have witnessed hundreds of games where Zerg got 30+ mutas, his opponent pressuring him or not doesn't mean shit if Zerg just plays well and focuses on eventually making mutalisks.
Stop for a moment. Think logically. You're saying that if Z plays well enough, they can mass up 30 mutas despite pressure.
I'd like to point out that if Z plays well enough, they can do pretty much anything. This is obvious: if somebody (P, Z or T) plays well enough, they can win the game.
That was the point I was trying to make, dunno why you appear to think I was saying something else.
I also wasn't trying to imply that after Zerg makes 30 mutalisks they autowin. That's obviously not true (Terrans don't win as soon as the tech lab on their starport finishes in TvP); I was simply trying to dispel the myth that "If you play properly (E.G. Pressure Zerg) you can prevent him from making mutalisks, period."
The "Well if you let him get 'X' you just lose" idea is simply not true, at least not in the manner most people use it. People used to say "If you let Protoss too many Void Rays AND Collosus, you just lose." That's obviously not true now and it wasn't true at any point in time, it's just at that certain point in the metagame (Whether due to patches or not I'm not going to argue, I don't really care) if Protoss DID happen to get to that point in the game, they usually had a very high likelyhood of winning. In my opinion PvZ is in a similar situation, except with mutalisks. Obviously it's a bit different, because you can base race and stuff, but from my experience unless Zerg is silly and A-moves into a full Toss army with storm and archons, Zerg has a very high likelyhood of winning.
Oh, I wasn't trying to argue that you were implying that 30 mutas auto-win the game. I was just saying that since somebody who outplays their opponent sufficiently can win the game, then there will be a lesser level of play at which they could build 30 mutas instead (which is obviously not as strong of an action as winning the game). It all comes up to gaining enough advantage.
So... let's go for a logical analysis of the situation.
I will assume that Z can't suddenly pop 30 mutalisks out, because letting Z pile up 3k/3k resources when they are not miles ahead is not proper play (and if any player is miles ahead, then it's perfectly fine for them to be able to build a crushing army - in fact, I'd like the fact that this specific crushing army is not of the a-move sort). I'm also putting this as an axiom - if anybody disagrees with this, I'm not going to discuss it. So... in order to get there, Z has to start with small amounts of mutalisks; in order to fix a pattern of thought, let's say that they have to get to a point where they can afford to invest 850/800 (lair+spire+mutas, consider it 700/700 if you don't want to include lair tech) into units that have little direct combat value. In abstract, there could be two options for achieving that: 1) defending cost-effectively, using the margin to tech; 2) get a larger economy and use the extra income to tech.
If 2) is what happens without superior play from Z, then the alleged balance problem isn't with mutalisks. Since that would transcend the scope of this discussion, I'm going to ignore this possibility (read: if people really think that there's a problem with economy growth, it would be better to open another thread). If 1) is what happens without superior play from Z, then I would assume that crawlers are involved. While creep and the support of one queen per hatchery are a significant form of defender's advantage, they should not account for 850/800 worth of resources. If we're talking about spine crawlers, that is another 150 minerals of resources per crawler - I'd dare to say that you'd need four for 600 minerals, but the exact amount is debatable. Point is, P should be able to decide to put 400 minerals in a nexus, then 450/450 in three stargates, then add as many cannons as the amount of the crawlers they forced. This should be enough to ward off small amounts of mutas. In fact, I think that P could afford to put 400 some of those resources into buildings before pushing out, then cancel them for extra warp-ins if they see that they see that Z cut corners in their defense - but this is just an idea. With the gas from 3 bases, P is able to support 3 boosted stargates with a little surplus (a stargate pumping phoenixes with a single chrono per minute eats up exactly 200 gas). Now... I know from previous tests that phoenixes win against mutalisks at a 2:3 ratio without micro, in large numbers (and get only better if microed correctly or if mutalisk bounces become negligible due to smaller numbers). So, in order to get enough gas to beat phoenixes from 3 bases, Z has to control 9 geysers. This means 5 bases - and Z needs to secure them before P can rake up the phoenix count. If both sides pump 600 gas per minute in flyers, then the catch-up takes (at most! Remember, I'm still going with the 2:3 figure, which is probably not the best that P can do) 20 seconds per every 100 gas that Z had over P when the stargates finished (either in mutas or waiting to be spent in mutas). Once that happens, mutas become useless.
This is all theorycraft and there are a lot of details that need refinement and polishing. However, it's an effort to be vaguely more constructive and analytical. I'd be curious to see if a gameplan like this works, but I'm a Z player and I'm nowhere near GM/pro level anyway.
There is one simple solution for the "OP" mutas -12 units per control group. The muta harass will still exist but it will be much harder and the better players will be rewarded. Also that will solve a bunch of problems with that game... 1a death ball is one of them.
EPT
