On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
See WhiteRa vs Ret game 1, it's typical of what I'm speaking about:
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that crazymoving was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
But the thing is, HerO wasn't playing badly or worse than CrazyMoving. If anything Crazy moving was playing worse. He didn't cut off zealots and stalkers as they were picking off far away bases and he lost a whole base of drones to 2 stalkers.
And don't say HerO missed storms because the vast majority hit the mutalisks and did some damage. The issue was that the damage was so minimal that it barely left a dent on the mutalisks. Followed by the fact the stalkers were doing poor damage the mutas just wouldn't die.
As someone pointed out before, if the stalkers were marines then while flying over them Crazy Moving would have lost far more mutas than he did vs. HerO.
HerO did everything you suggest is necessary vs mutas. Storm, leaving templar behind, having well upgraded blink stalkers and taking a not super late 3rd. The 3rd was a bit faster than normal, the opening was standard and he did some mineral damage to the Zerg.
The fact that no pheonix were made even though a stargate was available also says volumes about the viability of pheonix vs Mutalisks. HerO just died a very slow death to the mutalisks since CM didnt let them sit in the middle of a storm to take full damage. That was all he had to do and he did it so he won.
I still think it was a mistake to not keep making phoenixes. I know the argument of "he's a progamer, he knows better" is difficult to argue against, but : - he had 5 (or 6 ?) phoenixes when the muta production started - he had 2 stargates I won't talk about how, if he scouts the muta switch, just having 6-8 phoenix is enough to totally nullify it (you camp the hatcheries and kill every spawning muta, the ball can't grow), but even then, if you keep pumping phoenixes until you have 12, you'll be able to weaken the muta ball enormously, in addition to the ball being unable to harass you. Phoenix micro is hard but possible, it's exactly the same dynamic as unstimed marines vs banshees (it is, really), except it's in an accelerated state so it's harder (but watching marine vs banshee micro is helping to understand what to do in phoenix vs muta, the phoenix being the marines). The real problem is that it's an intensive micro, which basically prevent any macro unless you retreat.
"The phoenixes can't kill hatcheries", true, but the phoenixes can kill everything else. 12 phoenixes are ravaging 30 drones in 15 seconds. They're good vs any ground army except pure lings. The usual problem is that the muta switch will include upgrades and 30 mutas, the phoenix defense will be 6 0-0 phoenixes, and the conclusion will be "phoenixes sux against mutas". I don't have a lot examples of mutas switch successfully defended by phoenixes, because usually the protoss make stalkers and lose, which seems to be the preferred option over making phoenixes. (but I have at least one game in mind, it was Oz vs ? on Fortress last code A season, he kept pumping phoenixes, and when you have enough, the mutas can't dive into the stalkers to fight them anymore because they'll get destroyed, and the muta harass is hard because the phoenixes are scouting).
I wrote all this thinking it's possible that mutas are slightly OP in this matchup, but I still think that even pros aren't reacting well. All the money that Hero spent in HT, archons and storm today would have allowed him to make a flock of phoenix big enough to amove the mutas...(in a LOT less time)
The game vs CM, CM opened roach and then switched into muta. He had like 2-3 spores at each hatch and when he did switch into mutas he popped 14 of them and then 4 more right after.
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that crazymoving was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
But the thing is, HerO wasn't playing badly or worse than CrazyMoving. If anything Crazy moving was playing worse. He didn't cut off zealots and stalkers as they were picking off far away bases and he lost a whole base of drones to 2 stalkers.
And don't say HerO missed storms because the vast majority hit the mutalisks and did some damage. The issue was that the damage was so minimal that it barely left a dent on the mutalisks. Followed by the fact the stalkers were doing poor damage the mutas just wouldn't die.
As someone pointed out before, if the stalkers were marines then while flying over them Crazy Moving would have lost far more mutas than he did vs. HerO.
HerO did everything you suggest is necessary vs mutas. Storm, leaving templar behind, having well upgraded blink stalkers and taking a not super late 3rd. The 3rd was a bit faster than normal, the opening was standard and he did some mineral damage to the Zerg.
The fact that no pheonix were made even though a stargate was available also says volumes about the viability of pheonix vs Mutalisks. HerO just died a very slow death to the mutalisks since CM didnt let them sit in the middle of a storm to take full damage. That was all he had to do and he did it so he won.
Personally I don't get why Tosses even try to use storm vs mutas, it's an awful counter, it was awful in BW and relied somewhat on luck (almost always they simply used archons). Just morph those templar into archons at the start, don't even bother with storm T_T.
In BW you had the possibility of maelstrom also which let you land storms, also corsairs were better vs mutas than phoenix are. Also goons are better than stalkers.
Maelstrom was rarely used. Very rarely. It got popular for like 2 weeks when tosses were having problems with 5 hatch hydra into delayed mutas. That's all. Corsairs were indeed better, but many opted to go the goon/archon route instead as corsairs were often picked off by scourge. Storm was also far more damaging in SC1.
Quite simply, more blink stalkers + archons are going to be a far better counter vs mutas than trying to tech to storm. Eventually get it, yes, but far far later on.
On November 08 2011 05:55 Falling wrote:
On November 08 2011 05:47 FabledIntegral wrote:
On November 08 2011 05:44 ZeromuS wrote:
On November 08 2011 04:13 Big J wrote:
On November 08 2011 03:43 AA.spoon wrote:
On November 08 2011 02:55 Big J wrote:
On November 08 2011 02:33 AA.spoon wrote:
On November 08 2011 02:20 Big J wrote: [quote]
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that crazymoving was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
But the thing is, HerO wasn't playing badly or worse than CrazyMoving. If anything Crazy moving was playing worse. He didn't cut off zealots and stalkers as they were picking off far away bases and he lost a whole base of drones to 2 stalkers.
And don't say HerO missed storms because the vast majority hit the mutalisks and did some damage. The issue was that the damage was so minimal that it barely left a dent on the mutalisks. Followed by the fact the stalkers were doing poor damage the mutas just wouldn't die.
As someone pointed out before, if the stalkers were marines then while flying over them Crazy Moving would have lost far more mutas than he did vs. HerO.
HerO did everything you suggest is necessary vs mutas. Storm, leaving templar behind, having well upgraded blink stalkers and taking a not super late 3rd. The 3rd was a bit faster than normal, the opening was standard and he did some mineral damage to the Zerg.
The fact that no pheonix were made even though a stargate was available also says volumes about the viability of pheonix vs Mutalisks. HerO just died a very slow death to the mutalisks since CM didnt let them sit in the middle of a storm to take full damage. That was all he had to do and he did it so he won.
Personally I don't get why Tosses even try to use storm vs mutas, it's an awful counter, it was awful in BW and relied somewhat on luck (almost always they simply used archons). Just morph those templar into archons at the start, don't even bother with storm T_T.
Well at 112 damage, if you could ever catch the muta, it was worth it. But I agree that storms seem rather useless. Even if the muta's sit under it for the full four seconds, they keep 1/3 of their health. But what is more likely is that they'll just fly through it taking minimal damage. But do archons even help once they get that giant flock? Because with unlimited selection it seems they could just outright snipe Archons too. Whereas in BW that splash was just killer for the 11 muta that would actually be forced to take a shot or two to the face.
The higher the count of mutas, the more effective archons become... it's the same with Thors. If you force them to magic box you, they take substantially more damage from the stalkers than they would have otherwise. It's the exact same concept as ZvT. Mutas can easily pick off Thors/Archons alone, but if there is Thor/Marine or Stalker/Archon the mutas simply can't engage unless in overwhelming numbers, to which you should simply have more stuff.
But it was a possibility to maelstrom, if toss had it in sc2 they wouldn't care about mutas, maelstrom + storm or maelstrom + archons would solve the problem and it would help in PvT. Stalkers are such flimsy units I hate them, goons were way beefier. Also what "size" unit was a muta, medium?
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that crazymoving was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
But the thing is, HerO wasn't playing badly or worse than CrazyMoving. If anything Crazy moving was playing worse. He didn't cut off zealots and stalkers as they were picking off far away bases and he lost a whole base of drones to 2 stalkers.
And don't say HerO missed storms because the vast majority hit the mutalisks and did some damage. The issue was that the damage was so minimal that it barely left a dent on the mutalisks. Followed by the fact the stalkers were doing poor damage the mutas just wouldn't die.
As someone pointed out before, if the stalkers were marines then while flying over them Crazy Moving would have lost far more mutas than he did vs. HerO.
HerO did everything you suggest is necessary vs mutas. Storm, leaving templar behind, having well upgraded blink stalkers and taking a not super late 3rd. The 3rd was a bit faster than normal, the opening was standard and he did some mineral damage to the Zerg.
The fact that no pheonix were made even though a stargate was available also says volumes about the viability of pheonix vs Mutalisks. HerO just died a very slow death to the mutalisks since CM didnt let them sit in the middle of a storm to take full damage. That was all he had to do and he did it so he won.
Personally I don't get why Tosses even try to use storm vs mutas, it's an awful counter, it was awful in BW and relied somewhat on luck (almost always they simply used archons). Just morph those templar into archons at the start, don't even bother with storm T_T.
In BW you had the possibility of maelstrom also which let you land storms, also corsairs were better vs mutas than phoenix are. Also goons are better than stalkers.
Maelstrom was rarely used. Very rarely. It got popular for like 2 weeks when tosses were having problems with 5 hatch hydra into delayed mutas. That's all. Corsairs were indeed better, but many opted to go the goon/archon route instead as corsairs were often picked off by scourge. Storm was also far more damaging in SC1.
Quite simply, more blink stalkers + archons are going to be a far better counter vs mutas than trying to tech to storm. Eventually get it, yes, but far far later on.
On November 08 2011 05:55 Falling wrote:
On November 08 2011 05:47 FabledIntegral wrote:
On November 08 2011 05:44 ZeromuS wrote:
On November 08 2011 04:13 Big J wrote:
On November 08 2011 03:43 AA.spoon wrote:
On November 08 2011 02:55 Big J wrote:
On November 08 2011 02:33 AA.spoon wrote: [quote]
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that crazymoving was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
But the thing is, HerO wasn't playing badly or worse than CrazyMoving. If anything Crazy moving was playing worse. He didn't cut off zealots and stalkers as they were picking off far away bases and he lost a whole base of drones to 2 stalkers.
And don't say HerO missed storms because the vast majority hit the mutalisks and did some damage. The issue was that the damage was so minimal that it barely left a dent on the mutalisks. Followed by the fact the stalkers were doing poor damage the mutas just wouldn't die.
As someone pointed out before, if the stalkers were marines then while flying over them Crazy Moving would have lost far more mutas than he did vs. HerO.
HerO did everything you suggest is necessary vs mutas. Storm, leaving templar behind, having well upgraded blink stalkers and taking a not super late 3rd. The 3rd was a bit faster than normal, the opening was standard and he did some mineral damage to the Zerg.
The fact that no pheonix were made even though a stargate was available also says volumes about the viability of pheonix vs Mutalisks. HerO just died a very slow death to the mutalisks since CM didnt let them sit in the middle of a storm to take full damage. That was all he had to do and he did it so he won.
Personally I don't get why Tosses even try to use storm vs mutas, it's an awful counter, it was awful in BW and relied somewhat on luck (almost always they simply used archons). Just morph those templar into archons at the start, don't even bother with storm T_T.
Well at 112 damage, if you could ever catch the muta, it was worth it. But I agree that storms seem rather useless. Even if the muta's sit under it for the full four seconds, they keep 1/3 of their health. But what is more likely is that they'll just fly through it taking minimal damage. But do archons even help once they get that giant flock? Because with unlimited selection it seems they could just outright snipe Archons too. Whereas in BW that splash was just killer for the 11 muta that would actually be forced to take a shot or two to the face.
The higher the count of mutas, the more effective archons become... it's the same with Thors. If you force them to magic box you, they take substantially more damage from the stalkers than they would have otherwise. It's the exact same concept as ZvT. Mutas can easily pick off Thors/Archons alone, but if there is Thor/Marine or Stalker/Archon the mutas simply can't engage unless in overwhelming numbers, to which you should simply have more stuff.
But it was a possibility to maelstrom, if toss had it in sc2 they wouldn't care about mutas, maelstrom + storm or maelstrom + archons would solve the problem and it would help in PvT. Stalkers are such flimsy units I hate them, goons were way beefier. Also what "size" unit was a muta, medium?
You can't say it would be used at all without knowing the situation... mutas were a huge issue in SC1 and it still wasn't used...
But you only had to worry about groups of 11 of them, not 30-40. Imagine a maelstrom on even half of them into a storm landing for full damage and/or some archon shots. Mutas would literally melt.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that crazymoving was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
But the thing is, HerO wasn't playing badly or worse than CrazyMoving. If anything Crazy moving was playing worse. He didn't cut off zealots and stalkers as they were picking off far away bases and he lost a whole base of drones to 2 stalkers.
And don't say HerO missed storms because the vast majority hit the mutalisks and did some damage. The issue was that the damage was so minimal that it barely left a dent on the mutalisks. Followed by the fact the stalkers were doing poor damage the mutas just wouldn't die.
As someone pointed out before, if the stalkers were marines then while flying over them Crazy Moving would have lost far more mutas than he did vs. HerO.
HerO did everything you suggest is necessary vs mutas. Storm, leaving templar behind, having well upgraded blink stalkers and taking a not super late 3rd. The 3rd was a bit faster than normal, the opening was standard and he did some mineral damage to the Zerg.
The fact that no pheonix were made even though a stargate was available also says volumes about the viability of pheonix vs Mutalisks. HerO just died a very slow death to the mutalisks since CM didnt let them sit in the middle of a storm to take full damage. That was all he had to do and he did it so he won.
Personally I don't get why Tosses even try to use storm vs mutas, it's an awful counter, it was awful in BW and relied somewhat on luck (almost always they simply used archons). Just morph those templar into archons at the start, don't even bother with storm T_T.
In BW you had the possibility of maelstrom also which let you land storms, also corsairs were better vs mutas than phoenix are. Also goons are better than stalkers.
Maelstrom was rarely used. Very rarely. It got popular for like 2 weeks when tosses were having problems with 5 hatch hydra into delayed mutas. That's all. Corsairs were indeed better, but many opted to go the goon/archon route instead as corsairs were often picked off by scourge. Storm was also far more damaging in SC1.
Quite simply, more blink stalkers + archons are going to be a far better counter vs mutas than trying to tech to storm. Eventually get it, yes, but far far later on.
On November 08 2011 05:55 Falling wrote:
On November 08 2011 05:47 FabledIntegral wrote:
On November 08 2011 05:44 ZeromuS wrote:
On November 08 2011 04:13 Big J wrote:
On November 08 2011 03:43 AA.spoon wrote:
On November 08 2011 02:55 Big J wrote:
On November 08 2011 02:33 AA.spoon wrote: [quote]
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that crazymoving was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
But the thing is, HerO wasn't playing badly or worse than CrazyMoving. If anything Crazy moving was playing worse. He didn't cut off zealots and stalkers as they were picking off far away bases and he lost a whole base of drones to 2 stalkers.
And don't say HerO missed storms because the vast majority hit the mutalisks and did some damage. The issue was that the damage was so minimal that it barely left a dent on the mutalisks. Followed by the fact the stalkers were doing poor damage the mutas just wouldn't die.
As someone pointed out before, if the stalkers were marines then while flying over them Crazy Moving would have lost far more mutas than he did vs. HerO.
HerO did everything you suggest is necessary vs mutas. Storm, leaving templar behind, having well upgraded blink stalkers and taking a not super late 3rd. The 3rd was a bit faster than normal, the opening was standard and he did some mineral damage to the Zerg.
The fact that no pheonix were made even though a stargate was available also says volumes about the viability of pheonix vs Mutalisks. HerO just died a very slow death to the mutalisks since CM didnt let them sit in the middle of a storm to take full damage. That was all he had to do and he did it so he won.
Personally I don't get why Tosses even try to use storm vs mutas, it's an awful counter, it was awful in BW and relied somewhat on luck (almost always they simply used archons). Just morph those templar into archons at the start, don't even bother with storm T_T.
Well at 112 damage, if you could ever catch the muta, it was worth it. But I agree that storms seem rather useless. Even if the muta's sit under it for the full four seconds, they keep 1/3 of their health. But what is more likely is that they'll just fly through it taking minimal damage. But do archons even help once they get that giant flock? Because with unlimited selection it seems they could just outright snipe Archons too. Whereas in BW that splash was just killer for the 11 muta that would actually be forced to take a shot or two to the face.
The higher the count of mutas, the more effective archons become... it's the same with Thors. If you force them to magic box you, they take substantially more damage from the stalkers than they would have otherwise. It's the exact same concept as ZvT. Mutas can easily pick off Thors/Archons alone, but if there is Thor/Marine or Stalker/Archon the mutas simply can't engage unless in overwhelming numbers, to which you should simply have more stuff.
But it was a possibility to maelstrom, if toss had it in sc2 they wouldn't care about mutas, maelstrom + storm or maelstrom + archons would solve the problem and it would help in PvT. Stalkers are such flimsy units I hate them, goons were way beefier. Also what "size" unit was a muta, medium?
Mutas were small.
ewww so goons only did 10 damage to them right? Sorry didn't play BW competitively at all.
The HT left at each base by hero kept him in the game pretty much. Even though as people have pointed out storm sucks for killing mutas, it forces them back long enough for your stalkers to get there.
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that crazymoving was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
But the thing is, HerO wasn't playing badly or worse than CrazyMoving. If anything Crazy moving was playing worse. He didn't cut off zealots and stalkers as they were picking off far away bases and he lost a whole base of drones to 2 stalkers.
And don't say HerO missed storms because the vast majority hit the mutalisks and did some damage. The issue was that the damage was so minimal that it barely left a dent on the mutalisks. Followed by the fact the stalkers were doing poor damage the mutas just wouldn't die.
As someone pointed out before, if the stalkers were marines then while flying over them Crazy Moving would have lost far more mutas than he did vs. HerO.
HerO did everything you suggest is necessary vs mutas. Storm, leaving templar behind, having well upgraded blink stalkers and taking a not super late 3rd. The 3rd was a bit faster than normal, the opening was standard and he did some mineral damage to the Zerg.
The fact that no pheonix were made even though a stargate was available also says volumes about the viability of pheonix vs Mutalisks. HerO just died a very slow death to the mutalisks since CM didnt let them sit in the middle of a storm to take full damage. That was all he had to do and he did it so he won.
I still think it was a mistake to not keep making phoenixes. I know the argument of "he's a progamer, he knows better" is difficult to argue against, but : - he had 5 (or 6 ?) phoenixes when the muta production started - he had 2 stargates I won't talk about how, if he scouts the muta switch, just having 6-8 phoenix is enough to totally nullify it (you camp the hatcheries and kill every spawning muta, the ball can't grow), but even then, if you keep pumping phoenixes until you have 12, you'll be able to weaken the muta ball enormously, in addition to the ball being unable to harass you. Phoenix micro is hard but possible, it's exactly the same dynamic as unstimed marines vs banshees (it is, really), except it's in an accelerated state so it's harder (but watching marine vs banshee micro is helping to understand what to do in phoenix vs muta, the phoenix being the marines). The real problem is that it's an intensive micro, which basically prevent any macro unless you retreat.
"The phoenixes can't kill hatcheries", true, but the phoenixes can kill everything else. 12 phoenixes are ravaging 30 drones in 15 seconds. They're good vs any ground army except pure lings. The usual problem is that the muta switch will include upgrades and 30 mutas, the phoenix defense will be 6 0-0 phoenixes, and the conclusion will be "phoenixes sux against mutas". I don't have a lot examples of mutas switch successfully defended by phoenixes, because usually the protoss make stalkers and lose, which seems to be the preferred option over making phoenixes. (but I have at least one game in mind, it was Oz vs ? on Fortress last code A season, he kept pumping phoenixes, and when you have enough, the mutas can't dive into the stalkers to fight them anymore because they'll get destroyed, and the muta harass is hard because the phoenixes are scouting).
I wrote all this thinking it's possible that mutas are slightly OP in this matchup, but I still think that even pros aren't reacting well. All the money that Hero spent in HT, archons and storm today would have allowed him to make a flock of phoenix big enough to amove the mutas...(in a LOT less time)
The game vs CM, CM opened roach and then switched into muta. He had like 2-3 spores at each hatch and when he did switch into mutas he popped 14 of them and then 4 more right after.
I was so sure people would answer to the "I won't talk about" part xD
On November 08 2011 06:07 Atreides wrote: The HT left at each base by hero kept him in the game pretty much. Even though as people have pointed out storm sucks for killing mutas, it forces them back long enough for your stalkers to get there.
I don't see storm so much for killing mutas as giving you a way to damage a huge number of them. A flock of mutas that takes splash ends up extremely more fragile to miscellaneous cannon/stalker fire. Storm has range and a wider radius than anything else, meaning that you can easily leave 2 hts in a mineral line with cannons to storm at mutas that fly in to do anything, while other units are on the move. I'd definitely say that past the early harass phase, those 2 ht are worth more than a single archon.
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that crazymoving was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
But the thing is, HerO wasn't playing badly or worse than CrazyMoving. If anything Crazy moving was playing worse. He didn't cut off zealots and stalkers as they were picking off far away bases and he lost a whole base of drones to 2 stalkers.
And don't say HerO missed storms because the vast majority hit the mutalisks and did some damage. The issue was that the damage was so minimal that it barely left a dent on the mutalisks. Followed by the fact the stalkers were doing poor damage the mutas just wouldn't die.
As someone pointed out before, if the stalkers were marines then while flying over them Crazy Moving would have lost far more mutas than he did vs. HerO.
HerO did everything you suggest is necessary vs mutas. Storm, leaving templar behind, having well upgraded blink stalkers and taking a not super late 3rd. The 3rd was a bit faster than normal, the opening was standard and he did some mineral damage to the Zerg.
The fact that no pheonix were made even though a stargate was available also says volumes about the viability of pheonix vs Mutalisks. HerO just died a very slow death to the mutalisks since CM didnt let them sit in the middle of a storm to take full damage. That was all he had to do and he did it so he won.
I still think it was a mistake to not keep making phoenixes. I know the argument of "he's a progamer, he knows better" is difficult to argue against, but : - he had 5 (or 6 ?) phoenixes when the muta production started - he had 2 stargates I won't talk about how, if he scouts the muta switch, just having 6-8 phoenix is enough to totally nullify it (you camp the hatcheries and kill every spawning muta, the ball can't grow), but even then, if you keep pumping phoenixes until you have 12, you'll be able to weaken the muta ball enormously, in addition to the ball being unable to harass you. Phoenix micro is hard but possible, it's exactly the same dynamic as unstimed marines vs banshees (it is, really), except it's in an accelerated state so it's harder (but watching marine vs banshee micro is helping to understand what to do in phoenix vs muta, the phoenix being the marines). The real problem is that it's an intensive micro, which basically prevent any macro unless you retreat.
"The phoenixes can't kill hatcheries", true, but the phoenixes can kill everything else. 12 phoenixes are ravaging 30 drones in 15 seconds. They're good vs any ground army except pure lings. The usual problem is that the muta switch will include upgrades and 30 mutas, the phoenix defense will be 6 0-0 phoenixes, and the conclusion will be "phoenixes sux against mutas". I don't have a lot examples of mutas switch successfully defended by phoenixes, because usually the protoss make stalkers and lose, which seems to be the preferred option over making phoenixes. (but I have at least one game in mind, it was Oz vs ? on Fortress last code A season, he kept pumping phoenixes, and when you have enough, the mutas can't dive into the stalkers to fight them anymore because they'll get destroyed, and the muta harass is hard because the phoenixes are scouting).
I wrote all this thinking it's possible that mutas are slightly OP in this matchup, but I still think that even pros aren't reacting well. All the money that Hero spent in HT, archons and storm today would have allowed him to make a flock of phoenix big enough to amove the mutas...(in a LOT less time)
The game vs CM, CM opened roach and then switched into muta. He had like 2-3 spores at each hatch and when he did switch into mutas he popped 14 of them and then 4 more right after.
I was so sure people would answer to the "I won't talk about" part xD
I was in that LR thread with you all night, can't pull the wool over my eyes ♥
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that crazymoving was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
But the thing is, HerO wasn't playing badly or worse than CrazyMoving. If anything Crazy moving was playing worse. He didn't cut off zealots and stalkers as they were picking off far away bases and he lost a whole base of drones to 2 stalkers.
And don't say HerO missed storms because the vast majority hit the mutalisks and did some damage. The issue was that the damage was so minimal that it barely left a dent on the mutalisks. Followed by the fact the stalkers were doing poor damage the mutas just wouldn't die.
As someone pointed out before, if the stalkers were marines then while flying over them Crazy Moving would have lost far more mutas than he did vs. HerO.
HerO did everything you suggest is necessary vs mutas. Storm, leaving templar behind, having well upgraded blink stalkers and taking a not super late 3rd. The 3rd was a bit faster than normal, the opening was standard and he did some mineral damage to the Zerg.
The fact that no pheonix were made even though a stargate was available also says volumes about the viability of pheonix vs Mutalisks. HerO just died a very slow death to the mutalisks since CM didnt let them sit in the middle of a storm to take full damage. That was all he had to do and he did it so he won.
I still think it was a mistake to not keep making phoenixes. I know the argument of "he's a progamer, he knows better" is difficult to argue against, but : - he had 5 (or 6 ?) phoenixes when the muta production started - he had 2 stargates I won't talk about how, if he scouts the muta switch, just having 6-8 phoenix is enough to totally nullify it (you camp the hatcheries and kill every spawning muta, the ball can't grow), but even then, if you keep pumping phoenixes until you have 12, you'll be able to weaken the muta ball enormously, in addition to the ball being unable to harass you. Phoenix micro is hard but possible, it's exactly the same dynamic as unstimed marines vs banshees (it is, really), except it's in an accelerated state so it's harder (but watching marine vs banshee micro is helping to understand what to do in phoenix vs muta, the phoenix being the marines). The real problem is that it's an intensive micro, which basically prevent any macro unless you retreat.
"The phoenixes can't kill hatcheries", true, but the phoenixes can kill everything else. 12 phoenixes are ravaging 30 drones in 15 seconds. They're good vs any ground army except pure lings. The usual problem is that the muta switch will include upgrades and 30 mutas, the phoenix defense will be 6 0-0 phoenixes, and the conclusion will be "phoenixes sux against mutas". I don't have a lot examples of mutas switch successfully defended by phoenixes, because usually the protoss make stalkers and lose, which seems to be the preferred option over making phoenixes. (but I have at least one game in mind, it was Oz vs ? on Fortress last code A season, he kept pumping phoenixes, and when you have enough, the mutas can't dive into the stalkers to fight them anymore because they'll get destroyed, and the muta harass is hard because the phoenixes are scouting).
I wrote all this thinking it's possible that mutas are slightly OP in this matchup, but I still think that even pros aren't reacting well. All the money that Hero spent in HT, archons and storm today would have allowed him to make a flock of phoenix big enough to amove the mutas...(in a LOT less time)
The game vs CM, CM opened roach and then switched into muta. He had like 2-3 spores at each hatch and when he did switch into mutas he popped 14 of them and then 4 more right after.
I was so sure people would answer to the "I won't talk about" part xD
I was in that LR thread with you all night, can't pull the wool over my eyes ♥
I know, we discussed about that in there in fact =)
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that crazymoving was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
But the thing is, HerO wasn't playing badly or worse than CrazyMoving. If anything Crazy moving was playing worse. He didn't cut off zealots and stalkers as they were picking off far away bases and he lost a whole base of drones to 2 stalkers.
And don't say HerO missed storms because the vast majority hit the mutalisks and did some damage. The issue was that the damage was so minimal that it barely left a dent on the mutalisks. Followed by the fact the stalkers were doing poor damage the mutas just wouldn't die.
As someone pointed out before, if the stalkers were marines then while flying over them Crazy Moving would have lost far more mutas than he did vs. HerO.
HerO did everything you suggest is necessary vs mutas. Storm, leaving templar behind, having well upgraded blink stalkers and taking a not super late 3rd. The 3rd was a bit faster than normal, the opening was standard and he did some mineral damage to the Zerg.
The fact that no pheonix were made even though a stargate was available also says volumes about the viability of pheonix vs Mutalisks. HerO just died a very slow death to the mutalisks since CM didnt let them sit in the middle of a storm to take full damage. That was all he had to do and he did it so he won.
Personally I don't get why Tosses even try to use storm vs mutas, it's an awful counter, it was awful in BW and relied somewhat on luck (almost always they simply used archons). Just morph those templar into archons at the start, don't even bother with storm T_T.
In BW you had the possibility of maelstrom also which let you land storms, also corsairs were better vs mutas than phoenix are. Also goons are better than stalkers.
Maelstrom was rarely used. Very rarely. It got popular for like 2 weeks when tosses were having problems with 5 hatch hydra into delayed mutas. That's all. Corsairs were indeed better, but many opted to go the goon/archon route instead as corsairs were often picked off by scourge. Storm was also far more damaging in SC1.
Quite simply, more blink stalkers + archons are going to be a far better counter vs mutas than trying to tech to storm. Eventually get it, yes, but far far later on.
On November 08 2011 05:55 Falling wrote:
On November 08 2011 05:47 FabledIntegral wrote:
On November 08 2011 05:44 ZeromuS wrote:
On November 08 2011 04:13 Big J wrote:
On November 08 2011 03:43 AA.spoon wrote:
On November 08 2011 02:55 Big J wrote: [quote]
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that crazymoving was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
But the thing is, HerO wasn't playing badly or worse than CrazyMoving. If anything Crazy moving was playing worse. He didn't cut off zealots and stalkers as they were picking off far away bases and he lost a whole base of drones to 2 stalkers.
And don't say HerO missed storms because the vast majority hit the mutalisks and did some damage. The issue was that the damage was so minimal that it barely left a dent on the mutalisks. Followed by the fact the stalkers were doing poor damage the mutas just wouldn't die.
As someone pointed out before, if the stalkers were marines then while flying over them Crazy Moving would have lost far more mutas than he did vs. HerO.
HerO did everything you suggest is necessary vs mutas. Storm, leaving templar behind, having well upgraded blink stalkers and taking a not super late 3rd. The 3rd was a bit faster than normal, the opening was standard and he did some mineral damage to the Zerg.
The fact that no pheonix were made even though a stargate was available also says volumes about the viability of pheonix vs Mutalisks. HerO just died a very slow death to the mutalisks since CM didnt let them sit in the middle of a storm to take full damage. That was all he had to do and he did it so he won.
Personally I don't get why Tosses even try to use storm vs mutas, it's an awful counter, it was awful in BW and relied somewhat on luck (almost always they simply used archons). Just morph those templar into archons at the start, don't even bother with storm T_T.
Well at 112 damage, if you could ever catch the muta, it was worth it. But I agree that storms seem rather useless. Even if the muta's sit under it for the full four seconds, they keep 1/3 of their health. But what is more likely is that they'll just fly through it taking minimal damage. But do archons even help once they get that giant flock? Because with unlimited selection it seems they could just outright snipe Archons too. Whereas in BW that splash was just killer for the 11 muta that would actually be forced to take a shot or two to the face.
The higher the count of mutas, the more effective archons become... it's the same with Thors. If you force them to magic box you, they take substantially more damage from the stalkers than they would have otherwise. It's the exact same concept as ZvT. Mutas can easily pick off Thors/Archons alone, but if there is Thor/Marine or Stalker/Archon the mutas simply can't engage unless in overwhelming numbers, to which you should simply have more stuff.
But it was a possibility to maelstrom, if toss had it in sc2 they wouldn't care about mutas, maelstrom + storm or maelstrom + archons would solve the problem and it would help in PvT. Stalkers are such flimsy units I hate them, goons were way beefier. Also what "size" unit was a muta, medium?
You can't say it would be used at all without knowing the situation... mutas were a huge issue in SC1 and it still wasn't used...
But you only had to worry about groups of 11 of them, not 30-40. Imagine a maelstrom on even half of them into a storm landing for full damage and/or some archon shots. Mutas would literally melt.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that crazymoving was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
But the thing is, HerO wasn't playing badly or worse than CrazyMoving. If anything Crazy moving was playing worse. He didn't cut off zealots and stalkers as they were picking off far away bases and he lost a whole base of drones to 2 stalkers.
And don't say HerO missed storms because the vast majority hit the mutalisks and did some damage. The issue was that the damage was so minimal that it barely left a dent on the mutalisks. Followed by the fact the stalkers were doing poor damage the mutas just wouldn't die.
As someone pointed out before, if the stalkers were marines then while flying over them Crazy Moving would have lost far more mutas than he did vs. HerO.
HerO did everything you suggest is necessary vs mutas. Storm, leaving templar behind, having well upgraded blink stalkers and taking a not super late 3rd. The 3rd was a bit faster than normal, the opening was standard and he did some mineral damage to the Zerg.
The fact that no pheonix were made even though a stargate was available also says volumes about the viability of pheonix vs Mutalisks. HerO just died a very slow death to the mutalisks since CM didnt let them sit in the middle of a storm to take full damage. That was all he had to do and he did it so he won.
Personally I don't get why Tosses even try to use storm vs mutas, it's an awful counter, it was awful in BW and relied somewhat on luck (almost always they simply used archons). Just morph those templar into archons at the start, don't even bother with storm T_T.
In BW you had the possibility of maelstrom also which let you land storms, also corsairs were better vs mutas than phoenix are. Also goons are better than stalkers.
Maelstrom was rarely used. Very rarely. It got popular for like 2 weeks when tosses were having problems with 5 hatch hydra into delayed mutas. That's all. Corsairs were indeed better, but many opted to go the goon/archon route instead as corsairs were often picked off by scourge. Storm was also far more damaging in SC1.
Quite simply, more blink stalkers + archons are going to be a far better counter vs mutas than trying to tech to storm. Eventually get it, yes, but far far later on.
On November 08 2011 05:55 Falling wrote:
On November 08 2011 05:47 FabledIntegral wrote:
On November 08 2011 05:44 ZeromuS wrote:
On November 08 2011 04:13 Big J wrote:
On November 08 2011 03:43 AA.spoon wrote:
On November 08 2011 02:55 Big J wrote: [quote]
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that crazymoving was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
But the thing is, HerO wasn't playing badly or worse than CrazyMoving. If anything Crazy moving was playing worse. He didn't cut off zealots and stalkers as they were picking off far away bases and he lost a whole base of drones to 2 stalkers.
And don't say HerO missed storms because the vast majority hit the mutalisks and did some damage. The issue was that the damage was so minimal that it barely left a dent on the mutalisks. Followed by the fact the stalkers were doing poor damage the mutas just wouldn't die.
As someone pointed out before, if the stalkers were marines then while flying over them Crazy Moving would have lost far more mutas than he did vs. HerO.
HerO did everything you suggest is necessary vs mutas. Storm, leaving templar behind, having well upgraded blink stalkers and taking a not super late 3rd. The 3rd was a bit faster than normal, the opening was standard and he did some mineral damage to the Zerg.
The fact that no pheonix were made even though a stargate was available also says volumes about the viability of pheonix vs Mutalisks. HerO just died a very slow death to the mutalisks since CM didnt let them sit in the middle of a storm to take full damage. That was all he had to do and he did it so he won.
Personally I don't get why Tosses even try to use storm vs mutas, it's an awful counter, it was awful in BW and relied somewhat on luck (almost always they simply used archons). Just morph those templar into archons at the start, don't even bother with storm T_T.
Well at 112 damage, if you could ever catch the muta, it was worth it. But I agree that storms seem rather useless. Even if the muta's sit under it for the full four seconds, they keep 1/3 of their health. But what is more likely is that they'll just fly through it taking minimal damage. But do archons even help once they get that giant flock? Because with unlimited selection it seems they could just outright snipe Archons too. Whereas in BW that splash was just killer for the 11 muta that would actually be forced to take a shot or two to the face.
The higher the count of mutas, the more effective archons become... it's the same with Thors. If you force them to magic box you, they take substantially more damage from the stalkers than they would have otherwise. It's the exact same concept as ZvT. Mutas can easily pick off Thors/Archons alone, but if there is Thor/Marine or Stalker/Archon the mutas simply can't engage unless in overwhelming numbers, to which you should simply have more stuff.
But it was a possibility to maelstrom, if toss had it in sc2 they wouldn't care about mutas, maelstrom + storm or maelstrom + archons would solve the problem and it would help in PvT. Stalkers are such flimsy units I hate them, goons were way beefier. Also what "size" unit was a muta, medium?
Mutas were small.
ewww so goons only did 10 damage to them right? Sorry didn't play BW competitively at all.
You can't go into an argument about pro players and then bring up the limited unit selection in BW. In fact, having that prevented the pros from developing lazy habits like the 1a syndrome that happens even in the highest levels in SC2. Pros can control more than 1 group of mutas. They can't micro them as well as they could micro just one group but they can still micro them better than what micro the SC2 engine allows players to.
On November 08 2011 00:36 Velr wrote: I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
I never said a Zerg suddenly techswitches to 40 2/2 mutas. The way it usually goes is the following: you forge-fast-expand, you drop 6-7 gate and a tech of your choice ( stargate, robo, twilight ), and prepare for a push around 9'. Sometimes I even produce 3-4 zealots around 6'-7' to put a bit of pressure on his third. Anyway, the Zerg sees you coming and drops a huge wall of spines in front of his natural. Like 7-8 spines and 20 lings, nothing you can break with a pure gateway army without immortals or colossi. And 2 minutes later, 10 mutas are out ( that's usually between 10'30 and 12' ). There's no way a Protoss can pressure a Zerg into spending his gas and minerals is basically a non-issue.
From this point, it only goes downhill. My push fails: Either I lose my army, or I retreat by saving most of it: it doesn't matter. Mutas are out on the field, I have to defend my 2 bases. Canons are only static defenses, I absolutely need blink stalkers just to barely survive the harass, and I'm unable to take my third until I have at least a decent soft counter to mass mutas ( like storm or archons ).
Meanwhile, the Zerg continues to grow his mutaball, upgrades it, makes sure to harass left & right to make you remember he's still knocking at your door, and prepares his tech switch along with taking expansions everywhere on the map.
I tried prism and DTs harass to prevent the Zerg from macroing up; those simply don't work against good Zergs, period.
The Zerg will stay at 200/200 for a while, teching and upgrading, accumulating resources on his X bases with tons of larvae. Then when he feels confident, he will do a suicide attack. He will most likely lose to my army, and reproduce stuff I just can't handle with my tech, usually brood lords, mass roaches and infestors. It's gg for me, but in reality I just survived, the game was lost 10' ago when I got contained in my bases.
I'm absolutely confused by what I'm reading in this thread, especially coming from Zergs. Apparently it's easy to kill a Zerg when doing a timing push, but I try that all the time and it never works. I'd really like to see a non-cheesy replay of a Protoss that fast expands and is able to punish a Zerg before he's got mutas. And I'm talking of a decent Zerg that scouts and prepares for the timing push, not one that makes a major mistake.. pretty please ?
just matches that come to my mind immidiatly (because they were played yesterday and today):
contains match results of GSL and asus invitiational whiteRa vs Idra; wins and losses for protoss players vs mutalisks, but in general good play vs mutalisks + Show Spoiler +
-) Asus Invitational Idra vs WhiteRa match 1 -) Superstar vs Brown GSL Code A match 1
furthermore -) Hero vs crazymoving game1 was a very close game, in which hero got behind early, but still held on for something like 25mins vs mutalisks, until crazymoving eventually could kill him -) Hero vs crazymoving game2; hero goes double stargate and blindcounters crazymovings spire tech, who then has to cancel the spire
I really want to emphasize on the WhiteRa vs Idra game, because it showed that even if you're completly unprepared against mutalisks (double robo and charge research), just by scouting the mutalisks and having a good economy (3base vs 3base, with just a little bit of warp prism harass instead of huge gateway semi-allins) you can just power through mutalisk harass until you have the army to crush one of the best mutaplayers in the west
Really, Protoss players have to stop suciding gateway armies into 3base zergs, because that is the best possible scenario for a mutalisk switch, as stalkercount, tech and eco will be low for protoss.
It is kinda funny you mention the first game between hero and CM. Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
Hero opens stargate with phoenix. He takes a fast third and gets templars and blink. This is a near ideal response one would think. Yet hero got roflstomped.
Yeah i know, the game lasted long and seemed close, but that is always the case in pvz with mutas. The zerg players can't engage head on, so it takes a while to technically win the game, but the game was already won at the 17 min mark. Go rewacht the muta harass at the natural at the 17 min mark ingame. Mutas come in and harass. Mutas destroy cannons phoenix and stalkers (that blunk in to defend). Toss antiair isn't as good as terran marines. Next the templars come in, waste a storm and the mutas fly away with ten health taken which they will regen anyway. That happens all the time. When you go blindly 2stargate after FFE you are in a decent spot vs spire players. But zergs don't have to use there spire. just throw down a roach warren and hydraden and you will be fine in the game.
yeah I know, it's funny how complex situations are sometimes not as easy as "but he opened stargate!" want to have another example for that: Zerg goes roach/hydra which does fine vs gateway, then Protoss goes colossi and zerg goes corruptors which is great vs colossi, yet zerg gets demolished in the direct engagement... Really makes one wonder if the game might be a little more complex + Show Spoiler +
Also if you want to find an early point, when hero lost the game, why don't you point out that crazymoving was way ahead because hero did no damage with his stargate play and no damage with his chargeplay and expanded rather late to a 3rd. One could point out that the only thing that kept hero in the game, was how well blink stalkers, phoenix and storms work against mutalisks, even when zerg has way more of them then in an even situation
CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
But the thing is, HerO wasn't playing badly or worse than CrazyMoving. If anything Crazy moving was playing worse. He didn't cut off zealots and stalkers as they were picking off far away bases and he lost a whole base of drones to 2 stalkers.
And don't say HerO missed storms because the vast majority hit the mutalisks and did some damage. The issue was that the damage was so minimal that it barely left a dent on the mutalisks. Followed by the fact the stalkers were doing poor damage the mutas just wouldn't die.
As someone pointed out before, if the stalkers were marines then while flying over them Crazy Moving would have lost far more mutas than he did vs. HerO.
HerO did everything you suggest is necessary vs mutas. Storm, leaving templar behind, having well upgraded blink stalkers and taking a not super late 3rd. The 3rd was a bit faster than normal, the opening was standard and he did some mineral damage to the Zerg.
The fact that no pheonix were made even though a stargate was available also says volumes about the viability of pheonix vs Mutalisks. HerO just died a very slow death to the mutalisks since CM didnt let them sit in the middle of a storm to take full damage. That was all he had to do and he did it so he won.
Well, I think there was only one storm that was really hitting the mutaball, most other storms were just at the edges of the mutalisks. And yes, Hero did some great moves killing expansions and CM might have been able to safe some more drones, but I would have to look at the replay and see this kind of stuff. Also I think I have pointed out verious times that imo HerO was at least a little behind already at that point in time. Also I think an 11+min third is rather late with an army that consists pretty much of only gateway units, as you can go colossus expand around 12mins as well. (which is ofc no better vs mutalisks, but just to point out how much further you can be in tech at that time)
The things that really bug me are, that people keep on argueing that the Protoss should win in this "antimuta"-scenario, which is wrong. A biomech player who relies mostly on marines doesn't just lose because banelings and infestors are on the field and that is fine as well. And also that I have given 2more examples of recent high level games in PvZ including mutalisks, that the protoss players won, but people keep arguing about the one game I pointed out that the protoss player lost and that was played on probably the most mutaliskfriendly map that is currently being played in the whole mappool.
But seriously I think this game is what Blizzard has in mind when they say P needs an easy counter to the muta. The problem is, I'm not sure if the Tempest is the right solution. What could happen is Hero gets a Tempest at each expo and then turtles and facerolls. gg. It might be too hard of a counter, but honestly we can't say shit until the pros start playing around with it so w/e
You honestly think a 300/300 2.25 Speed unit that requires a fleet beacon was going to stop that many mutas that early?
Heres a better solution, phoenix upgrade at fleetbeacon. tuh duh.
No need for tempest.
Hell reinstate KA, no need to phoenix or tempest.
Dude seriously?
Do you honestly think that is what the final balanced cost of the Tempest is going to be? There have been like hundreds of threads where people say "don't whine about the current cost/stats of the new units. they're not balanced yet." Have you not seen those threads?
All I'm saying is the unit is a very hard counter to the muta. It would work but it isn't necessarily a good thing.
What kind of phoenix upgrade do you have in mind btw?
But seriously I think this game is what Blizzard has in mind when they say P needs an easy counter to the muta. The problem is, I'm not sure if the Tempest is the right solution. What could happen is Hero gets a Tempest at each expo and then turtles and facerolls. gg. It might be too hard of a counter, but honestly we can't say shit until the pros start playing around with it so w/e
You honestly think a 300/300 2.25 Speed unit that requires a fleet beacon was going to stop that many mutas that early?
Heres a better solution, phoenix upgrade at fleetbeacon. tuh duh.
No need for tempest.
Hell reinstate KA, no need to phoenix or tempest.
Dude seriously?
Do you honestly think that is what the final balanced cost of the Tempest is going to be? There have been like hundreds of threads where people say "don't whine about the current cost/stats of the new units. they're not balanced yet." Have you not seen those threads?
All I'm saying is the unit is a very hard counter to the muta. It would work but it isn't necessarily a good thing.
What kind of phoenix upgrade do you have in mind btw?
I'm going to assume giving the attack a splash radius.
But seriously I think this game is what Blizzard has in mind when they say P needs an easy counter to the muta. The problem is, I'm not sure if the Tempest is the right solution. What could happen is Hero gets a Tempest at each expo and then turtles and facerolls. gg. It might be too hard of a counter, but honestly we can't say shit until the pros start playing around with it so w/e
You honestly think a 300/300 2.25 Speed unit that requires a fleet beacon was going to stop that many mutas that early?
Heres a better solution, phoenix upgrade at fleetbeacon. tuh duh.
No need for tempest.
Hell reinstate KA, no need to phoenix or tempest.
Dude seriously?
Do you honestly think that is what the final balanced cost of the Tempest is going to be? There have been like hundreds of threads where people say "don't whine about the current cost/stats of the new units. they're not balanced yet." Have you not seen those threads?
All I'm saying is the unit is a very hard counter to the muta. It would work but it isn't necessarily a good thing.
What kind of phoenix upgrade do you have in mind btw?
I'm going to assume giving the attack a splash radius.
I could see that being viable. It doesn't look like it would affect PvT which is good.
On November 08 2011 03:43 AA.spoon wrote: [quote] CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
But the thing is, HerO wasn't playing badly or worse than CrazyMoving. If anything Crazy moving was playing worse. He didn't cut off zealots and stalkers as they were picking off far away bases and he lost a whole base of drones to 2 stalkers.
And don't say HerO missed storms because the vast majority hit the mutalisks and did some damage. The issue was that the damage was so minimal that it barely left a dent on the mutalisks. Followed by the fact the stalkers were doing poor damage the mutas just wouldn't die.
As someone pointed out before, if the stalkers were marines then while flying over them Crazy Moving would have lost far more mutas than he did vs. HerO.
HerO did everything you suggest is necessary vs mutas. Storm, leaving templar behind, having well upgraded blink stalkers and taking a not super late 3rd. The 3rd was a bit faster than normal, the opening was standard and he did some mineral damage to the Zerg.
The fact that no pheonix were made even though a stargate was available also says volumes about the viability of pheonix vs Mutalisks. HerO just died a very slow death to the mutalisks since CM didnt let them sit in the middle of a storm to take full damage. That was all he had to do and he did it so he won.
Personally I don't get why Tosses even try to use storm vs mutas, it's an awful counter, it was awful in BW and relied somewhat on luck (almost always they simply used archons). Just morph those templar into archons at the start, don't even bother with storm T_T.
In BW you had the possibility of maelstrom also which let you land storms, also corsairs were better vs mutas than phoenix are. Also goons are better than stalkers.
Maelstrom was rarely used. Very rarely. It got popular for like 2 weeks when tosses were having problems with 5 hatch hydra into delayed mutas. That's all. Corsairs were indeed better, but many opted to go the goon/archon route instead as corsairs were often picked off by scourge. Storm was also far more damaging in SC1.
Quite simply, more blink stalkers + archons are going to be a far better counter vs mutas than trying to tech to storm. Eventually get it, yes, but far far later on.
On November 08 2011 05:55 Falling wrote:
On November 08 2011 05:47 FabledIntegral wrote:
On November 08 2011 05:44 ZeromuS wrote:
On November 08 2011 04:13 Big J wrote:
On November 08 2011 03:43 AA.spoon wrote: [quote] CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
But the thing is, HerO wasn't playing badly or worse than CrazyMoving. If anything Crazy moving was playing worse. He didn't cut off zealots and stalkers as they were picking off far away bases and he lost a whole base of drones to 2 stalkers.
And don't say HerO missed storms because the vast majority hit the mutalisks and did some damage. The issue was that the damage was so minimal that it barely left a dent on the mutalisks. Followed by the fact the stalkers were doing poor damage the mutas just wouldn't die.
As someone pointed out before, if the stalkers were marines then while flying over them Crazy Moving would have lost far more mutas than he did vs. HerO.
HerO did everything you suggest is necessary vs mutas. Storm, leaving templar behind, having well upgraded blink stalkers and taking a not super late 3rd. The 3rd was a bit faster than normal, the opening was standard and he did some mineral damage to the Zerg.
The fact that no pheonix were made even though a stargate was available also says volumes about the viability of pheonix vs Mutalisks. HerO just died a very slow death to the mutalisks since CM didnt let them sit in the middle of a storm to take full damage. That was all he had to do and he did it so he won.
Personally I don't get why Tosses even try to use storm vs mutas, it's an awful counter, it was awful in BW and relied somewhat on luck (almost always they simply used archons). Just morph those templar into archons at the start, don't even bother with storm T_T.
Well at 112 damage, if you could ever catch the muta, it was worth it. But I agree that storms seem rather useless. Even if the muta's sit under it for the full four seconds, they keep 1/3 of their health. But what is more likely is that they'll just fly through it taking minimal damage. But do archons even help once they get that giant flock? Because with unlimited selection it seems they could just outright snipe Archons too. Whereas in BW that splash was just killer for the 11 muta that would actually be forced to take a shot or two to the face.
The higher the count of mutas, the more effective archons become... it's the same with Thors. If you force them to magic box you, they take substantially more damage from the stalkers than they would have otherwise. It's the exact same concept as ZvT. Mutas can easily pick off Thors/Archons alone, but if there is Thor/Marine or Stalker/Archon the mutas simply can't engage unless in overwhelming numbers, to which you should simply have more stuff.
But it was a possibility to maelstrom, if toss had it in sc2 they wouldn't care about mutas, maelstrom + storm or maelstrom + archons would solve the problem and it would help in PvT. Stalkers are such flimsy units I hate them, goons were way beefier. Also what "size" unit was a muta, medium?
You can't say it would be used at all without knowing the situation... mutas were a huge issue in SC1 and it still wasn't used...
But you only had to worry about groups of 11 of them, not 30-40. Imagine a maelstrom on even half of them into a storm landing for full damage and/or some archon shots. Mutas would literally melt.
On November 08 2011 06:06 Dfgj wrote:
On November 08 2011 06:03 Hierarch wrote:
On November 08 2011 05:57 FabledIntegral wrote:
On November 08 2011 05:51 Hierarch wrote:
On November 08 2011 05:47 FabledIntegral wrote:
On November 08 2011 05:44 ZeromuS wrote:
On November 08 2011 04:13 Big J wrote:
On November 08 2011 03:43 AA.spoon wrote: [quote] CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
But the thing is, HerO wasn't playing badly or worse than CrazyMoving. If anything Crazy moving was playing worse. He didn't cut off zealots and stalkers as they were picking off far away bases and he lost a whole base of drones to 2 stalkers.
And don't say HerO missed storms because the vast majority hit the mutalisks and did some damage. The issue was that the damage was so minimal that it barely left a dent on the mutalisks. Followed by the fact the stalkers were doing poor damage the mutas just wouldn't die.
As someone pointed out before, if the stalkers were marines then while flying over them Crazy Moving would have lost far more mutas than he did vs. HerO.
HerO did everything you suggest is necessary vs mutas. Storm, leaving templar behind, having well upgraded blink stalkers and taking a not super late 3rd. The 3rd was a bit faster than normal, the opening was standard and he did some mineral damage to the Zerg.
The fact that no pheonix were made even though a stargate was available also says volumes about the viability of pheonix vs Mutalisks. HerO just died a very slow death to the mutalisks since CM didnt let them sit in the middle of a storm to take full damage. That was all he had to do and he did it so he won.
Personally I don't get why Tosses even try to use storm vs mutas, it's an awful counter, it was awful in BW and relied somewhat on luck (almost always they simply used archons). Just morph those templar into archons at the start, don't even bother with storm T_T.
In BW you had the possibility of maelstrom also which let you land storms, also corsairs were better vs mutas than phoenix are. Also goons are better than stalkers.
Maelstrom was rarely used. Very rarely. It got popular for like 2 weeks when tosses were having problems with 5 hatch hydra into delayed mutas. That's all. Corsairs were indeed better, but many opted to go the goon/archon route instead as corsairs were often picked off by scourge. Storm was also far more damaging in SC1.
Quite simply, more blink stalkers + archons are going to be a far better counter vs mutas than trying to tech to storm. Eventually get it, yes, but far far later on.
On November 08 2011 05:55 Falling wrote:
On November 08 2011 05:47 FabledIntegral wrote:
On November 08 2011 05:44 ZeromuS wrote:
On November 08 2011 04:13 Big J wrote:
On November 08 2011 03:43 AA.spoon wrote: [quote] CM was way ahead? Lol dude, go rewatch the game. Hero did no damage with stargate? Hero did pretty typical damage : a couple of queens, overlords and forcing spores. Heros third base was definately not late : 11 min 15, which is standard if not a little bit faster then standard. He had good eco and very good tech. What kept him in the game? Two things: 1) Muta play kills your opponent slowly. At the 17 min mark this game was lost. I know it sounds bold too an unexperienced player but it would have been a miracle to win vs a decent zerg that has spines bases and 30+ mutas. 2) CM is really not such a good player tbh, at least in that game there were many crucial mistakes which shouldnt happen at that level (codeA). Let me gives examples: Just before the main nexus dies, CM loses 10 mutas in Heros natural. CM mutas have been stormed afterwards and they are damaged. Instead of gently harassing and waiting to regen his life, he boldly moves across the main, which hero obviously sees: 5 mutas lost. hero places 3-4 stalkers behind one expo at 11 o clock; CM needs 45 sec to react and pull his drones wtf. Overall this game shows how ineffective temps and cannons are vs mutas. Just go watch how many storms were used and how many muta got killed because of the storms.
I know everyone can give his input on TL, but it is kinda funny how you, bigJ, explains to Hero, Welmu and myself how to play pvz and spams this thread like a madman.
well I'm sorry for you that I'm not one of the posters who writes "X is shit, Y is right" and then when you confront him, he doesn't answer. You know, some people call this discussing. If you want people to do that, open a thread that's called "Point out reasons why the mutalisk is imbalanced".
If you prefer it, you can think of any of my posts as: "In my opinion...", like as "in my opinion, hero was behind." And like in "in my opinion, Hero knows way better how to play PvZ, which doesn't mean that I can't point out that some of his decisions were rather relying on chance (stargate opening, chargelot harass), then being solid play" or like in "In my opinion, CM didn't make a lot more mistakes than Hero when he was harassing, because losing some mutas is just as natural as missing most storms against mutalisks"
But the thing is, HerO wasn't playing badly or worse than CrazyMoving. If anything Crazy moving was playing worse. He didn't cut off zealots and stalkers as they were picking off far away bases and he lost a whole base of drones to 2 stalkers.
And don't say HerO missed storms because the vast majority hit the mutalisks and did some damage. The issue was that the damage was so minimal that it barely left a dent on the mutalisks. Followed by the fact the stalkers were doing poor damage the mutas just wouldn't die.
As someone pointed out before, if the stalkers were marines then while flying over them Crazy Moving would have lost far more mutas than he did vs. HerO.
HerO did everything you suggest is necessary vs mutas. Storm, leaving templar behind, having well upgraded blink stalkers and taking a not super late 3rd. The 3rd was a bit faster than normal, the opening was standard and he did some mineral damage to the Zerg.
The fact that no pheonix were made even though a stargate was available also says volumes about the viability of pheonix vs Mutalisks. HerO just died a very slow death to the mutalisks since CM didnt let them sit in the middle of a storm to take full damage. That was all he had to do and he did it so he won.
Personally I don't get why Tosses even try to use storm vs mutas, it's an awful counter, it was awful in BW and relied somewhat on luck (almost always they simply used archons). Just morph those templar into archons at the start, don't even bother with storm T_T.
Well at 112 damage, if you could ever catch the muta, it was worth it. But I agree that storms seem rather useless. Even if the muta's sit under it for the full four seconds, they keep 1/3 of their health. But what is more likely is that they'll just fly through it taking minimal damage. But do archons even help once they get that giant flock? Because with unlimited selection it seems they could just outright snipe Archons too. Whereas in BW that splash was just killer for the 11 muta that would actually be forced to take a shot or two to the face.
The higher the count of mutas, the more effective archons become... it's the same with Thors. If you force them to magic box you, they take substantially more damage from the stalkers than they would have otherwise. It's the exact same concept as ZvT. Mutas can easily pick off Thors/Archons alone, but if there is Thor/Marine or Stalker/Archon the mutas simply can't engage unless in overwhelming numbers, to which you should simply have more stuff.
But it was a possibility to maelstrom, if toss had it in sc2 they wouldn't care about mutas, maelstrom + storm or maelstrom + archons would solve the problem and it would help in PvT. Stalkers are such flimsy units I hate them, goons were way beefier. Also what "size" unit was a muta, medium?
Mutas were small.
ewww so goons only did 10 damage to them right? Sorry didn't play BW competitively at all.
You can't go into an argument about pro players and then bring up the limited unit selection in BW. In fact, having that prevented the pros from developing lazy habits like the 1a syndrome that happens even in the highest levels in SC2. Pros can control more than 1 group of mutas. They can't micro them as well as they could micro just one group but they can still micro them better than what micro the SC2 engine allows players to.
Then enlighten me to why was maelstrom so underused, and the micro engine in BW might have been "better" but the pathing was stupid a lot of the time.
But seriously I think this game is what Blizzard has in mind when they say P needs an easy counter to the muta. The problem is, I'm not sure if the Tempest is the right solution. What could happen is Hero gets a Tempest at each expo and then turtles and facerolls. gg. It might be too hard of a counter, but honestly we can't say shit until the pros start playing around with it so w/e
You honestly think a 300/300 2.25 Speed unit that requires a fleet beacon was going to stop that many mutas that early?
Heres a better solution, phoenix upgrade at fleetbeacon. tuh duh.
No need for tempest.
Hell reinstate KA, no need to phoenix or tempest.
Dude seriously?
Do you honestly think that is what the final balanced cost of the Tempest is going to be? There have been like hundreds of threads where people say "don't whine about the current cost/stats of the new units. they're not balanced yet." Have you not seen those threads?
All I'm saying is the unit is a very hard counter to the muta. It would work but it isn't necessarily a good thing.
What kind of phoenix upgrade do you have in mind btw?
I'm going to assume giving the attack a splash radius.
I could see that being viable. It doesn't look like it would affect PvT which is good.
Colossus/Phoenix was popular for a while and was often countered with mass viking, so that's the only way it could be an issue.
But seriously I think this game is what Blizzard has in mind when they say P needs an easy counter to the muta. The problem is, I'm not sure if the Tempest is the right solution. What could happen is Hero gets a Tempest at each expo and then turtles and facerolls. gg. It might be too hard of a counter, but honestly we can't say shit until the pros start playing around with it so w/e
You honestly think a 300/300 2.25 Speed unit that requires a fleet beacon was going to stop that many mutas that early?
Heres a better solution, phoenix upgrade at fleetbeacon. tuh duh.
No need for tempest.
Hell reinstate KA, no need to phoenix or tempest.
Dude seriously?
Do you honestly think that is what the final balanced cost of the Tempest is going to be? There have been like hundreds of threads where people say "don't whine about the current cost/stats of the new units. they're not balanced yet." Have you not seen those threads?
All I'm saying is the unit is a very hard counter to the muta. It would work but it isn't necessarily a good thing.
What kind of phoenix upgrade do you have in mind btw?
I'm going to assume giving the attack a splash radius.
In my eyes, that would fix the whole problem (and reward good micro instead Blizzard's solution in HOTS). Sadly, they'll never do that because someone else suggested it (just like every other good idea the community comes up with). It even makes sense because phoenixes aren't exactly something you can quickly mass and are effective if used well, and ineffective if you attack move them, so it rewards good play.
On November 08 2011 06:56 FabledIntegral wrote:
Colossus/Phoenix was popular for a while and was often countered with mass viking, so that's the only way it could be an issue.
I couldn't see splash causing an issue with that after they fixed viking clumping. They still clump a lot, but not nearly on the level mutas do.
But seriously I think this game is what Blizzard has in mind when they say P needs an easy counter to the muta. The problem is, I'm not sure if the Tempest is the right solution. What could happen is Hero gets a Tempest at each expo and then turtles and facerolls. gg. It might be too hard of a counter, but honestly we can't say shit until the pros start playing around with it so w/e
You honestly think a 300/300 2.25 Speed unit that requires a fleet beacon was going to stop that many mutas that early?
Heres a better solution, phoenix upgrade at fleetbeacon. tuh duh.
No need for tempest.
Hell reinstate KA, no need to phoenix or tempest.
Dude seriously?
Do you honestly think that is what the final balanced cost of the Tempest is going to be? There have been like hundreds of threads where people say "don't whine about the current cost/stats of the new units. they're not balanced yet." Have you not seen those threads?
All I'm saying is the unit is a very hard counter to the muta. It would work but it isn't necessarily a good thing.
What kind of phoenix upgrade do you have in mind btw?
I'm going to assume giving the attack a splash radius.
In my eyes, that would fix the whole problem (and reward good micro instead Blizzard's solution in HOTS). Sadly, they'll never do that because someone else suggested it (just like every other good idea the community comes up with). It even makes sense because phoenixes aren't exactly something you can quickly mass and are effective if used well, and ineffective if you attack move them, so it rewards good play.
The reason they won't do it is because it will be the same thing as a corsair, and they want to avoid looking like they're reusing old units.
But seriously I think this game is what Blizzard has in mind when they say P needs an easy counter to the muta. The problem is, I'm not sure if the Tempest is the right solution. What could happen is Hero gets a Tempest at each expo and then turtles and facerolls. gg. It might be too hard of a counter, but honestly we can't say shit until the pros start playing around with it so w/e
You honestly think a 300/300 2.25 Speed unit that requires a fleet beacon was going to stop that many mutas that early?
Heres a better solution, phoenix upgrade at fleetbeacon. tuh duh.
No need for tempest.
Hell reinstate KA, no need to phoenix or tempest.
Dude seriously?
Do you honestly think that is what the final balanced cost of the Tempest is going to be? There have been like hundreds of threads where people say "don't whine about the current cost/stats of the new units. they're not balanced yet." Have you not seen those threads?
All I'm saying is the unit is a very hard counter to the muta. It would work but it isn't necessarily a good thing.
What kind of phoenix upgrade do you have in mind btw?
I'm going to assume giving the attack a splash radius.
In my eyes, that would fix the whole problem (and reward good micro instead Blizzard's solution in HOTS). Sadly, they'll never do that because someone else suggested it (just like every other good idea the community comes up with). It even makes sense because phoenixes aren't exactly something you can quickly mass and are effective if used well, and ineffective if you attack move them, so it rewards good play.
The reason they won't do it is because it will be the same thing as a corsair, and they want to avoid looking like they're reusing old units.
But seriously I think this game is what Blizzard has in mind when they say P needs an easy counter to the muta. The problem is, I'm not sure if the Tempest is the right solution. What could happen is Hero gets a Tempest at each expo and then turtles and facerolls. gg. It might be too hard of a counter, but honestly we can't say shit until the pros start playing around with it so w/e
You honestly think a 300/300 2.25 Speed unit that requires a fleet beacon was going to stop that many mutas that early?
Heres a better solution, phoenix upgrade at fleetbeacon. tuh duh.
No need for tempest.
Hell reinstate KA, no need to phoenix or tempest.
Dude seriously?
Do you honestly think that is what the final balanced cost of the Tempest is going to be? There have been like hundreds of threads where people say "don't whine about the current cost/stats of the new units. they're not balanced yet." Have you not seen those threads?
All I'm saying is the unit is a very hard counter to the muta. It would work but it isn't necessarily a good thing.
What kind of phoenix upgrade do you have in mind btw?
I'm going to assume giving the attack a splash radius.
In my eyes, that would fix the whole problem (and reward good micro instead Blizzard's solution in HOTS). Sadly, they'll never do that because someone else suggested it (just like every other good idea the community comes up with). It even makes sense because phoenixes aren't exactly something you can quickly mass and are effective if used well, and ineffective if you attack move them, so it rewards good play.
The reason they won't do it is because it will be the same thing as a corsair, and they want to avoid looking like they're reusing old units.
Yeah. There's more truth in this than most people will realize.
Blizzard don't actually care about making the perfect game. A popular game is their actual goal and the two do not really coincide (even for an eSport).
EPT
I was in that LR thread with you all night, can't pull the wool over my eyes ♥
