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On October 25 2011 18:16 GhostFall wrote:
Which brings me to my point. For the Warhound, why do the Terran need another unit to help with Mutalisks? They handle mutalisks extremely well because of the Marine. You're effectively nerfing Mutalisk harassment, which is something that doesn't really need nerfing in the TvZ matchup. Yes, they are removing the thor, but the warhound is being introduced specifically to be better than the Thor against mutalisks.
If I'm not mistaken, the intent of replacing the Thor with the Warhound is to nerf Terran early game Thor timings. Thors come out at a point where they are difficult to stop with low tier units - for all three races. By introducing the Warhound, the strength of the Terran army will increase gradually to roughly the same point it was at in WoL. That's the intent anyhow.
The Warhound has shorter range than the Thor, but it generally more useful. I think we will see more pure mech play in TvZ as a result of this. If you've played the Warhound in the HotS custom maps, it's not terribly useful against non-mechanical ground units. I'm not sure if this will change or not, but in it's current state it will annihilate mutas which fly over massed Warhounds, but will have to be spread out more to protect harassment because of their shorter range. I think that it's a general nerf for Terran in TvZ, but makes muta play either very effective or not effective at all. This is also true of mutas against marines, so I don't think it's a big deal really.
On October 25 2011 18:16 GhostFall wrote:
My second point regarding the Tempest, is that the unit fulfills no niche. Do Protoss have a hard time with mass mutas? Are archons, high templar, blink, and phoenixes really not enough? Is mass mutalisk such a common strategy that it requires the removal of the carrier and the addition of an all new capital ship? If the niche that the tempest provides is mass AOE-anti air, I really do not see it being built much because as it is now, there are many options to handle mass mutalisks. The only air unit thats being added is the Viper, which is more of a support unit, then an offensive one like the mutalisk.
If Protoss have difficulties against mass mutas, it's in tier 2. I don't think the tempest is going to be used when the opponent goes mass muta. If anything, the Tempest will be useful against corruptors or it will be useless. Archons and storms definitely handle mutas very well in tier 3, and Phoenix are good for keeping mutas off your base while you tech up to templar tech. Maybe the tempest is designed to be a counter to mutas along the stargate tech path, but I think that's silly because the phoenix already does well enough against mutas. A unit which instantly demolishes such a huge investment and does little else is pretty silly imo.
On the whole if it, I agree with you though. I want muta tech to be a strongly viable (if not the most viable) tech in all matchups because it's a harass which doesn't typically end games. It's fun to watch and fun to use. If I'm struggling against mutas, it's typically because I took a huge risk and don't have units to deal with the harass or because I don't have my units spread out. I don't really like the tempest because it will clearly ruin mutas, but if it doesn't deal with corruptors as well I don't think anyone will build them. If it deals with corruptors, then it makes the Protoss deathball a bunch scarier.
I disagree with you on the Warhounds. I think they're very inelegant and not as dynamic as the Thor is, but I don't think they'll make mutas useless against Terran. I think they'll be a very dull counter to direct engagements with mutas, but they'll be next to useless in any other situation. It seems to me that the idea behind the Warhound is that you have to produce a few of them before they're roughly as effective as one Thor was, thus tying up more production facilities and slowing down the power creep of the Terran mech army. Is this a bad thing for Terran? Not necessarily, I think it creates more options for Terrans in all matchups, but I thought the muta/thor dynamic was one of the most interesting dynamics in WoL and I'm sad to see it go. The muta/warhound dynamic will likely be more like the muta/archon dynamic (ie. avoid them).
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@Fuhrmaaj: Sanity, where art thou?
Thor timings? Where? When the unit's only raison détre in the first place is to shoo away Mutalisks? And does a rather bad job at that? Yeah, the Thor scales badly. 6-food superexpensive ground units are just a bad design idea, period. Warhounds fix that. Faster, more AoE so Mutas might actually be scared of something other than flying over Marines once in a while.
Marines, making mutas useless. Yessir. Every time Mutas engage directly and alone. In other words, basically never. The whole reason the unit is a problem is that it's supremely mobile and can hit everything. It means big muta balls end up erasing the unit's core flaw of inefficiency. Too much power in one spot. Even if the enemy can pack more with, say, Marines, they can never catch the Mutas. Overwhelming force that fears nothing but the opposing army, always where the opposing army is not.
It's not that the unit is overpowered. Small Muta wolfpacks are excellent. But the bad design just ends up erasing the unit's core flaw in huge clouds. It's why you see big muta clouds, and not tons of Banshees or Phoenixes, even if they might be theoretically better. Their weaknesses are not solved by massing up. That fundamental design flaw forces ugly counterdesigns like Warhounds and the Tempest. You just can't put the fear in muta clouds without brutal, instant AoE.
Ugly as they are, I welcome the Tempest and Warhound. It hopefully means mutas will act like Banshees and Phoenix - either as small harassing forces and/or as a component of a normal army, not as marauding hypermobile deathballs.
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On November 09 2011 05:20 Coffee Zombie wrote:
@Fuhrmaaj: Sanity, where art thou?
Thor timings? Where? When the unit's only raison détre in the first place is to shoo away Mutalisks? And does a rather bad job at that? Yeah, the Thor scales badly. 6-food superexpensive ground units are just a bad design idea, period. Warhounds fix that. Faster, more AoE so Mutas might actually be scared of something other than flying over Marines once in a while.
Marines, making mutas useless. Yessir. Every time Mutas engage directly and alone. In other words, basically never. The whole reason the unit is a problem is that it's supremely mobile and can hit everything. It means big muta balls end up erasing the unit's core flaw of inefficiency. Too much power in one spot. Even if the enemy can pack more with, say, Marines, they can never catch the Mutas. Overwhelming force that fears nothing but the opposing army, always where the opposing army is not.
It's not that the unit is overpowered. Small Muta wolfpacks are excellent. But the bad design just ends up erasing the unit's core flaw in huge clouds. It's why you see big muta clouds, and not tons of Banshees or Phoenixes, even if they might be theoretically better. Their weaknesses are not solved by massing up. That fundamental design flaw forces ugly counterdesigns like Warhounds and the Tempest. You just can't put the fear in muta clouds without brutal, instant AoE.
Ugly as they are, I welcome the Tempest and Warhound. It hopefully means mutas will act like Banshees and Phoenix - either as small harassing forces and/or as a component of a normal army, not as marauding hypermobile deathballs.
I think what he meant with "thortimings" is, that thors just hit the battlefield rather early, but have no immidiate weakness especially vs zerg, but also vs other races (thorrushes were part of the highest level of play for a looooong time).
Especially in vZ Thor/hellion builds catch a lot of people at timings were mass roach isn't efficient anymore, yet broodlords aren't available yet, even in the gsl, while on the other side, especially low-mid level players (meaning pretty much every nonpro player up to high masters) have trouble including them in a mech build before mutas hatch, while not getting caught by a roach timing (which is rather hard to scout).
Warhound should make it easier to get the antiair vs mutalisks and to get a little less punished for being out of position (and also going for tanks before to be safe vs roach allins), while it should make roaches better in pre-Hive timings.
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On October 25 2011 18:25 UnholyRai wrote:
speaking as a diamond protoss player I can say that the problem with mutas in p v z is the following:
1) If you don't have a critical mass of pheonix, mutas completely wreck them.
2) High templar storms can be easily dodged by the fast moving muta, and then you're screwed
3) Archons have tiny range of 3, it is incredibly easy to dodge them with mutas.
4) It is incredibly difficult to defend against MASS muta with stalker, because if you keep your whole stalker ball together mutas can simply fly to a location where your stalkers aren't. You need to often "get lucky" with a blink to catch the mutas. If you split up your stalkers, a MASS ball of mutas can outright kill them.
Personally, I don't even like the tempest, i would prefer a range buff to air for archons as a fix for the muta problem.
Comparatively, the stalker is actually an extremely slow unit compared to the mutalisk due to the mutalisk's actual speed and fact it can fly over cliffs. The only unit that protoss has that is the same movement speed (or more, correct me if i am wrong) is the phoenix. However, the problem with the phoenix is that it is a huge commitment, and does not have easy transitions due to the viability of late game air play (carriers) vs zerg due to corruptors. Phoenix also take a long time to get up to a critical amount where they can take the muta's head on, and if the zerg is active enough with their muta's they can pick off your phoenix's one by one.
The problem with muta's is that zerg, as a race, is supposed to be expanding everywhere, causing in a superior income over the protoss and terran. As protoss it is EXTREMELY hard to hold a 3rd base, and defend, and put any pressure on the zerg. I really don't understand why zergs dont go muta more often (glad that they do not) but it seem's like a un-loseable strategy when executed right. For e.g., let me give you a situation -
Antiga shipyard, protoss goes 3 or 1 gate FE and the zerg does a 15 hatch into a fast 3rd. The zerg then transitions to muta after his 3rd base is saturated and gets about 10-15 muta's up, protoss is confined to his 2 bases for quite a while, and the zerg takes a 4th where he saturates the gas and is able to get his muta count to ~ 30. Now he is able to easily pick off archons and small-medium amounts of stalkers without too many losses. Protoss is confined to 3 bases (which he may not even get up) and the zerg easily takes a 5th, saturates his gas and transitions to brood-lord infestor.
To me, this seems like an impossible-to-win circumstance for the protoss unless he gets "lucky", and do we really want to base a game around luck? No, i didnt think so.
I believe a change to the mutalisk is not necessary, however, i feel the viability of going phoenix or defending with blink stalkers is just too small. I feel that a change to the phoenix's build time / cost would be a suitable solution to this problem that many zergs have not exploited.
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On November 09 2011 05:20 Coffee Zombie wrote:
@Fuhrmaaj: Sanity, where art thou?
Thor timings? Where? When the unit's only raison détre in the first place is to shoo away Mutalisks? And does a rather bad job at that? Yeah, the Thor scales badly. 6-food superexpensive ground units are just a bad design idea, period. Warhounds fix that. Faster, more AoE so Mutas might actually be scared of something other than flying over Marines once in a while.
Marines, making mutas useless. Yessir. Every time Mutas engage directly and alone. In other words, basically never. The whole reason the unit is a problem is that it's supremely mobile and can hit everything. It means big muta balls end up erasing the unit's core flaw of inefficiency. Too much power in one spot. Even if the enemy can pack more with, say, Marines, they can never catch the Mutas. Overwhelming force that fears nothing but the opposing army, always where the opposing army is not.
It's not that the unit is overpowered. Small Muta wolfpacks are excellent. But the bad design just ends up erasing the unit's core flaw in huge clouds. It's why you see big muta clouds, and not tons of Banshees or Phoenixes, even if they might be theoretically better. Their weaknesses are not solved by massing up. That fundamental design flaw forces ugly counterdesigns like Warhounds and the Tempest. You just can't put the fear in muta clouds without brutal, instant AoE.
Ugly as they are, I welcome the Tempest and Warhound. It hopefully means mutas will act like Banshees and Phoenix - either as small harassing forces and/or as a component of a normal army, not as marauding hypermobile deathballs.
Best post on here explaining the situation accurately and articulately.
The problem is that even when the opponent starts countering mutas, the Zerg player keeps making them as they increase in power as they scale into greater numbers. Also as explained in blizzcon, Protoss can't really go phoenix after mutas have been shown because you can't get enough to fight back even after buffing them to shoot while moving and lowering their proiduction time considerably.
Hence, the new units in HotS.
Once you've played a few thousand games you start to get a strong feeling for mutas timings like DT timings and you can exploit their small timing window of vulnerability, but for the layman, they're very tough.
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The problem is the magic box. Peiod.
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On November 09 2011 08:33 Honeybadger wrote:
The problem is the magic box. Peiod.
How is something like that going to be fixed then? We could have chain attacks like the mutalisk splash on some more units, but You can't really take out the magic box,
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Personally I think the problem is that thor, viking, and phoenix are not as good as goliath, valkyrie and corsair.
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On November 09 2011 08:53 DARKHYDRA wrote:
Personally I think the problem is that thor, viking, and phoenix are not as good as goliath, valkyrie and corsair.
I like this the best honestly. They aren't as nearly efficient
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It seems like a lot of postings in this thread assume the zerg as having near perfect muta control and the protoss being a sloppy piece of trash bronzie. I really don't know what zergs you guys are running into but I find it can be easy to point out flaws in most pro players muta micro let alone your average dude on the ladder. Also in a lot of these descriptions I see a lot of "If X goes X and then X does this then this happens!". This may be true in certain situations but nobody is a perfect scouter and it's not like most people you run into on ladder have perfect build timing and execution. Quite the opposite in fact.
My only point being is maybe it's not the best idea to theorycraft on something so difficult to theorycraft on. Using examples is better because then you can directly point out the flaw in the play/game being critiqued as opposed to just assume that "X player will do X and X time". Even then you can give examples and describe situations until your fingers are cramped but what happens in the heat of the moment is totally different. Also it would be nice to see more examples of notable tournament games where pros have shown a prime example of what people are discussing here.
Lets face this fact also, HotS is going to change a lot of things, not just mutas in vT and vP. Until I see more and hear more from the pros trying it out currently I'm not gonna make any assumptions on the lack of need the Warhound and Tempest bring to the table. Only time will tell.
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How is something like that going to be fixed then? We could have chain attacks like the mutalisk splash on some more units, but You can't really take out the magic box,
It can be fixed by removing the radius by which the mutas would spread apart from each other, it would still be possible in low numbers but would be hard to do still. It wouldn't be a good change though in my opinion.
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On November 09 2011 09:24 Glowinglight wrote:Show nested quote +
How is something like that going to be fixed then? We could have chain attacks like the mutalisk splash on some more units, but You can't really take out the magic box,
It can be fixed by removing the radius by which the mutas would spread apart from each other, it would still be possible in low numbers but would be hard to do still. It wouldn't be a good change though in my opinion.
I just hope shredders will work well for me when I put them on the edge of my base, i heard they attack X and Y
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On November 09 2011 03:26 Bluerain wrote:
mass mutas are not even close to being OP vs P. theyre only used when Zerg alrdy has an advantage and thats why it seems like the P is so helpless and cant come back (cus they're alrdy at a defecit). try watching a high level game of a Z going mass mutas when its even LOL
The tech switch and base trades they force are impossible to deal with in the minuscule time span the protoss is given to react.
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On November 09 2011 05:20 Coffee Zombie wrote:
Thor timings? Where? When the unit's only raison détre in the first place is to shoo away Mutalisks? And does a rather bad job at that? Yeah, the Thor scales badly. 6-food superexpensive ground units are just a bad design idea, period. Warhounds fix that. Faster, more AoE so Mutas might actually be scared of something other than flying over Marines once in a while.
I want to make it clear that I don't necessarily agree with the thor timing logic - it was something which David Kim and Dustin Browder discussed at Blizzcon. I believe the intent was to stop the thor rush, but it wasn't made clear imo. I don't know if I agree that the thor scales poorly, but it's not the point I'm trying to make. I think the mutalisk in ZvT is fine. I don't follow your logic though, it looks like the Warhound will have a range similar to the marine, rather than the thor. It seems to me that I would rather build warhounds instead of marines, rather than to complement them because you can go mech and increase upgrade efficiency.
On November 09 2011 05:20 Coffee Zombie wrote:
Marines, making mutas useless. Yessir. Every time Mutas engage directly and alone. In other words, basically never. The whole reason the unit is a problem is that it's supremely mobile and can hit everything. It means big muta balls end up erasing the unit's core flaw of inefficiency. Too much power in one spot. Even if the enemy can pack more with, say, Marines, they can never catch the Mutas. Overwhelming force that fears nothing but the opposing army, always where the opposing army is not.
I didn't say marines make mutas useless. I said that if terran makes marines, then mutas are either really effective or not effective at all. I meant to liken the warhound's future role to the same role which the marine currently fills. So mutas are useful at sniping tanks and harassing, but if there are marines/warhounds covering the tanks and mineral lines then you just have to move on until you can work up sufficient numbers to deal with them. In HotS, there will be the added feature that you have to magic box the warhound but it looks like the same premise.
Also, I don't think anyone thinks the muta is supposed to be inefficient. Terran makes marines which are highly versatile and capable of winning games on their own, so zerg makes banelings, terran makes tanks to kill the banelings, zerg makes mutas to kill tanks and harass. When the engagement comes, almost all the sling/blings die, and the mutas get the tanks and medivacs. In my experience, after the first engagement there are mostly mutas, marines and maybe some tanks left. The mutalisk is the only unit left over after a big engagement and if the muta ball grows then zerg takes the upper hand; if terran keeps all their marines alive then they take the upper hand. If the mutas get out of control then terran makes thors to try to peel mutas off the tanks.
Personally I like this dynamic. Mutas need to stack up in order to snipe tanks and buildings before marines come shoo them away, but thors don't allow mutas to stack up. It means that terran has to be very careful with their mutas, but the mutas are still useful for harassing and sniping key units/structures. In the big engagements, the mutas can magic box the thors (but not before then) and then snipe tanks and medivacs before the marines clean up the rest of the zerglings and come back. I remember reading a blog on this, I can't find it though; can anyone link it?
On November 09 2011 05:20 Coffee Zombie wrote:
It's not that the unit is overpowered. Small Muta wolfpacks are excellent. But the bad design just ends up erasing the unit's core flaw in huge clouds. It's why you see big muta clouds, and not tons of Banshees or Phoenixes, even if they might be theoretically better. Their weaknesses are not solved by massing up. That fundamental design flaw forces ugly counterdesigns like Warhounds and the Tempest. You just can't put the fear in muta clouds without brutal, instant AoE.
Ugly as they are, I welcome the Tempest and Warhound. It hopefully means mutas will act like Banshees and Phoenix - either as small harassing forces and/or as a component of a normal army, not as marauding hypermobile deathballs.
I think the muta has an excellent design. One muta costs as much as a medivac, and is slightly cheaper than a tank. It takes a long time to work up a strong muta ball and ideally zerg will be repelling attacks and harassing where possible. The muta is only really useful in huge clouds, whereas one banshee can clear a mineral line if the opponent doesn't have detection and sufficient anti-air. Phoenixes can't shoot ground units and can't achieve victory conditions. Massing phoenix makes P vulnerable to base trades the same way that massing corruptors makes Z vulnerable to base trades. A more relevant analogy would be void rays, but they actually are useful in large numbers so the analogy falls apart.
That said, I think the warhound is fine. I would like to see it with longer range vs air, and low enough damage that mutas are still capable of magic boxing the lot and coming out on top (maybe not cost for cost, I dunno). I like the way that mutas are hypermobile and causing real damage, but I wouldn't call them deathballs.
I don't like the tempest because I think it comes out too late in the protoss tech tree to be useful against mutas. Archons and HTs come at the same point in the tech tree and they're great against mutas. I don't like hard counters and I think that if the tempest doesn't render mutas and corruptors useless, then it won't be built. I will continue to make archons, get blink and tech to storm; delaying with phoenix and cannons is good if a stargate is down. If tempests hard counter mutas and corruptors, then I'll get tempest and tech to colossi and go win the game.
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Why'd they get rid of the Corsair again? Amazing unit that solves the Muta problem elegantly in PvZ. You get great Scourge/Corsair/Muta micro air battles in BW and Blizzard thought, fuck that, that needs to go away.
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[B]On November 09 2011 05:20 Coffee Zombie wrote:
It's not that the unit is overpowered. Small Muta wolfpacks are excellent. But the bad design just ends up erasing the unit's core flaw in huge clouds. It's why you see big muta clouds, and not tons of Banshees or Phoenixes, even if they might be theoretically better. Their weaknesses are not solved by massing up. That fundamental design flaw forces ugly counterdesigns like Warhounds and the Tempest. You just can't put the fear in muta clouds without brutal, instant AoE.
Ugly as they are, I welcome the Tempest and Warhound. It hopefully means mutas will act like Banshees and Phoenix - either as small harassing forces and/or as a component of a normal army, not as marauding hypermobile deathballs.
This. The problem is not the unit itself, is the AWFUL design.
- Phoenix should counter mutas, but they do not, not even for the cost.
- The mobility of a muta cloud in the hands of a skilled player is too much eficiency for a pack of the same units, is much more efficient that, for example, in bw.
- Mutas should be a amazing harassing unit, like hellion, banshee or so, not a masseable hypermobile death cloud.
- The main issue is PvZ. T have marines that rapes mutas for the cost. P havo not an answer for the cost. The match ups is so flawed that even the top korean Z's are allowed to make 3 base, roach ling, or infestor ling, then make a killer muta switch with like +12 mutas (that mean an 1400min /1400gas) with the P not being able to punish that insane investment.
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Thor was a lame unit, but the new goliath needs both a biblical/ancient god name and it needs a new unit model... what the hell? warhound doesnt even sound terran....
tempest is not the answer... give phoenix overload again and we'd all be happy...
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On November 10 2011 05:45 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On November 09 2011 05:20 Coffee Zombie wrote:
It's not that the unit is overpowered. Small Muta wolfpacks are excellent. But the bad design just ends up erasing the unit's core flaw in huge clouds. It's why you see big muta clouds, and not tons of Banshees or Phoenixes, even if they might be theoretically better. Their weaknesses are not solved by massing up. That fundamental design flaw forces ugly counterdesigns like Warhounds and the Tempest. You just can't put the fear in muta clouds without brutal, instant AoE.
Ugly as they are, I welcome the Tempest and Warhound. It hopefully means mutas will act like Banshees and Phoenix - either as small harassing forces and/or as a component of a normal army, not as marauding hypermobile deathballs. This. The problem is not the unit itself, is the AWFUL design. - Phoenix should counter mutas, but they do not, not even for the cost. - The mobility of a muta cloud in the hands of a skilled player is too much eficiency for a pack of the same units, is much more efficient that, for example, in bw. - Mutas should be a amazing harassing unit, like hellion, banshee or so, not a masseable hypermobile death cloud. - The main issue is PvZ. T have marines that rapes mutas for the cost. P havo not an answer for the cost. The match ups is so flawed that even the top korean Z's are allowed to make 3 base, roach ling, or infestor ling, then make a killer muta switch with like +12 mutas (that mean an 1400min /1400gas) with the P not being able to punish that insane investment.
I don't really understand this way of thinking. First of all I highly disagree that Mutas should fill a role like Hellions or Banshees simply because Zerg work in swarming numbers, I'm perfectly ok with that. You can't wreck a mineral line with 2 Mutalisks the same way as you can with 2 Hellions or Banshees.
Secondly I don't really understand what the big deal is with PvZ dealing with Mutas. Sure if you don't scout and don't prepare they will absolutely pick you apart if you've gone the wrong tech path but again I see no problem with that. It's honestly not that difficult to deal with Mutalisks by utilizing Twilight tech...you know, Blink Stalkers, High Templar, Archons...all things that can dominate Mutas...
Protoss complaining about Mutalisk makes me sad, it's like the whole "Infestors OP!" argument all over again. Just because there has been a metagame shift and there is something "new" people are starting to use does not mean it's overpowered, try taking it upon yourself to adjust.
Mutas vs Protoss isn't really all that different from Mutas vs Terran either, in TvZ if you get hit with Mutas and you didn't scout and prepare accordingly you can easily take a massive hit to your economy and tech, sure it isn't quite as devastating to Terran as it is to Protoss because they can bounce back with Mules, but still, the same basic principle applies. I'm perfectly fine with Protoss being required to scout for a Spire instead of going whatever tech path they feel like all game.
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On November 10 2011 06:49 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:45 Belha wrote:[B]On November 09 2011 05:20 Coffee Zombie wrote:
It's not that the unit is overpowered. Small Muta wolfpacks are excellent. But the bad design just ends up erasing the unit's core flaw in huge clouds. It's why you see big muta clouds, and not tons of Banshees or Phoenixes, even if they might be theoretically better. Their weaknesses are not solved by massing up. That fundamental design flaw forces ugly counterdesigns like Warhounds and the Tempest. You just can't put the fear in muta clouds without brutal, instant AoE.
Ugly as they are, I welcome the Tempest and Warhound. It hopefully means mutas will act like Banshees and Phoenix - either as small harassing forces and/or as a component of a normal army, not as marauding hypermobile deathballs. This. The problem is not the unit itself, is the AWFUL design. - Phoenix should counter mutas, but they do not, not even for the cost. - The mobility of a muta cloud in the hands of a skilled player is too much eficiency for a pack of the same units, is much more efficient that, for example, in bw. - Mutas should be a amazing harassing unit, like hellion, banshee or so, not a masseable hypermobile death cloud. - The main issue is PvZ. T have marines that rapes mutas for the cost. P havo not an answer for the cost. The match ups is so flawed that even the top korean Z's are allowed to make 3 base, roach ling, or infestor ling, then make a killer muta switch with like +12 mutas (that mean an 1400min /1400gas) with the P not being able to punish that insane investment. I don't really understand this way of thinking. First of all I highly disagree that Mutas should fill a role like Hellions or Banshees simply because Zerg work in swarming numbers, I'm perfectly ok with that. You can't wreck a mineral line with 2 Mutalisks the same way as you can with 2 Hellions or Banshees. Secondly I don't really understand what the big deal is with PvZ dealing with Mutas. Sure if you don't scout and don't prepare they will absolutely pick you apart if you've gone the wrong tech path but again I see no problem with that. It's honestly not that difficult to deal with Mutalisks by utilizing Twilight tech...you know, Blink Stalkers, High Templar, Archons...all things that can dominate Mutas... Protoss complaining about Mutalisk makes me sad, it's like the whole "Infestors OP!" argument all over again. Just because there has been a metagame shift and there is something "new" people are starting to use does not mean it's overpowered, try taking it upon yourself to adjust. Mutas vs Protoss isn't really all that different from Mutas vs Terran either, in TvZ if you get hit with Mutas and you didn't scout and prepare accordingly you can easily take a massive hit to your economy and tech, sure it isn't quite as devastating to Terran as it is to Protoss because they can bounce back with Mules, but still, the same basic principle applies. I'm perfectly fine with Protoss being required to scout for a Spire instead of going whatever tech path they feel like all game.
Great post, I strongly agree with all of this. Conversely, there are some types of builds or openers which can put mutas down before they become an issue in PvZ. The best counter to this is to scout and see whether or not mutas are safe. Zerg needs to scout to see if they can go mutas, Protoss needs to scout to see if they're going to get destroyed by mutas. All's fair.
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For PvZ instead of introducing the Tempest why not just introduce an upgrade at the fleetbeacon that gives phoenix corsair splash? Muta problem solved, but mutas still viable. idk, just talking out of my ass really.
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EPT
