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Since a couple weeks, I played dozens of PvZs, and in the vast majority the Zerg went for mutas and won.
The problem I have with mutas is not the mutas themselves, there are counters to those. The problem is that it forces the Protoss to commit to the counter blindly, because the Zerg can switch tech at any moment without warnings. In some games, the Zerg will commit to 40 mutas with 2/2 upgrades, and if you don't have the tech counter at this moment ( mass blink stalkers, archons, templars ), you're in hell. However once you have your mass blink stalkers, archons and templars, in sufficient numbers to destroy 40 upgraded mutas.. the Zerg is on 5 bases and his T3 is ready. And suddenly you have no counter to BL/ultras, mass roaches, or whatever he reprods.
I've tried to base trade many times, unsuccessfully. Zerg's macro > Protoss macro, so he can easily hide expansions everywhere on the map with all the minerals he has accumulated ( usually thousands in the mid game ), while you're stuck with your immobile army, and he has lings and mutas running/flying everywhere. That, or you meet a wall of spines near his natural, and you lost a third of your army to kill them.
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Canada13389 Posts
On November 07 2011 22:50 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 20:11 Big J wrote:On November 07 2011 20:10 dapierow wrote:On November 07 2011 20:08 Exarian wrote:I should make a topic about are pheonix's are op? Destroying the shit out of hydras Phoenixes are fine (excluding their inability to deal with huge muta swarms) Hydras are UP, it is one of the most underused units in game. Doesnt matter, Hydras are supposed to counter pheonixs and they got demolished, and it was 6 hydras vs 5 pheonix's and 40 mutas cost a shit more than 30 stalkers, so it's OK that mutas are fine against them in those amounts... Thread solved!
And 50 marines cost a whole lot loss so it makes sense that they kill almost all of the 40 mutas !!! :D ...
Seriously, cost =/= the same as balance.
The fact mutas can be retained easier than stalkers is part of the problem. In the end Protoss needs to make many many more stalkers than the Zerg player mutas. Not only initially but in the long run by replacing dead stalkers which is part of the problem 
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And 50 marines cost a whole lot loss so it makes sense that they kill almost all of the 40 mutas !!! :D ...
Seriously, cost =/= the same as balance.
The fact mutas can be retained easier than stalkers is part of the problem. In the end Protoss needs to make many many more stalkers than the Zerg player mutas. Not only initially but in the long run by replacing dead stalkers which is part of the problem
Stalkers do not stack. If you have mutas, you can put 100 of them in 2.0 radius. It mean your 2.0 radius ball is doing 100x Muta DPS and has 100x muta health. If you are using stalkers, there is no way to pack so many of them on so small area. So unless Zerg player let Stalkers surround his mutas, there will be no way to keep all his stalkers firing at the same time. When numbers grow, situation is even more complicated.
Mutas are scaling FAR better then stalkers, thats why small number of mutas may be killed by small number of stalkers, while large number of mutas rotflstomp large number of stalkers.
Zerg superior economy and total map control is making toss life even harder.
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Why the solution everyone was using before this month of " kill him when he's building the spire / just after the first mutas " with an heavy gateway timing attack don't work anymore ?
I mean.. we use to say 6 gate timing attack kill 2 base muta like all the time so.. i wonder what happend
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I'm having a hard time with Mutas in ZvP. there isn't really a reliable counter to mutas flying into your base and killing 10 workers. Cannons get 1 shotted by a group of them. Storm misses a lot. Archons are the way to go, its hard for them to high five when they run so fast 
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On November 07 2011 23:31 Noocta wrote:
Why the solution everyone was using before this month of " kill him when he's building the spire / just after the first mutas " with an heavy gateway timing attack don't work anymore ?
I mean.. we use to say 6 gate timing attack kill 2 base muta like all the time so.. i wonder what happend
Can't speak for others, but for me a 6-7 gates timing push never works. It is always scouted, I find tons of spines at the natural, a good amount of lings and even if I can break the spines, mutas are around the corner to finish off my army.
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On November 07 2011 23:31 Noocta wrote:
Why the solution everyone was using before this month of " kill him when he's building the spire / just after the first mutas " with an heavy gateway timing attack don't work anymore ?
I mean.. we use to say 6 gate timing attack kill 2 base muta like all the time so.. i wonder what happend
Spine crawler walls, I guess
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Italy12246 Posts
On November 07 2011 23:31 Noocta wrote:
Why the solution everyone was using before this month of " kill him when he's building the spire / just after the first mutas " with an heavy gateway timing attack don't work anymore ?
I mean.. we use to say 6 gate timing attack kill 2 base muta like all the time so.. i wonder what happend
Because these days zergs go roach/ling to defend a third and have a good economy, rather than just straight up defend with pure lings while rushing for mutas on 2 bases.
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Canada13389 Posts
On November 07 2011 23:42 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 23:31 Noocta wrote:
Why the solution everyone was using before this month of " kill him when he's building the spire / just after the first mutas " with an heavy gateway timing attack don't work anymore ?
I mean.. we use to say 6 gate timing attack kill 2 base muta like all the time so.. i wonder what happend Because these days zergs go roach/ling to defend a third and have a good economy, rather than just straight up defend with pure lings while rushing for mutas on 2 bases.
Yup. This is the problem the Zergs have just gotten much much better at holding a 6/7 gate timing. I've seen low gas 8 gates kill them before but it hard to scout the spire in time to pull off that timing.
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I was just glancing over this thread again over lunch and it got me thinking so I came back on now quick to just post up a random idea:
Would increasing the range of blink help without being OP, perhaps?
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On November 07 2011 23:21 Exarian wrote:Show nested quote +And 50 marines cost a whole lot loss so it makes sense that they kill almost all of the 40 mutas !!! :D ...
Seriously, cost =/= the same as balance.
The fact mutas can be retained easier than stalkers is part of the problem. In the end Protoss needs to make many many more stalkers than the Zerg player mutas. Not only initially but in the long run by replacing dead stalkers which is part of the problem Stalkers do not stack. If you have mutas, you can put 100 of them in 2.0 radius. It mean your 2.0 radius ball is doing 100x Muta DPS and has 100x muta health. If you are using stalkers, there is no way to pack so many of them on so small area. So unless Zerg player let Stalkers surround his mutas, there will be no way to keep all his stalkers firing at the same time. When numbers grow, situation is even more complicated. Mutas are scaling FAR better then stalkers, thats why small number of mutas may be killed by small number of stalkers, while large number of mutas rotflstomp large number of stalkers.
That's just wrong and you know it and if not you can test it in any "Unit Test Map". Stalkers roflstomp mutas in even supply, not even talking about what they do in even costs, no matter how many of those units you compare...
Even your theorycraft is missing important facts: True mutas scale well due to their stacking, but stalkers scale also well due to their 6range. True that you can stack mutalisks on 2.0radius vs stalkers, but once archons or templar are out, you really must not do that anymore...
Yes you want to save your blink to chase mutalisks. But the moment he engages you with them, you can use it to safe dying stalkers and make your stalker army way more robust...
Yes it's true, playing aggressive is really easy in starcraft compared to playing defensive, because all the aggressive player is risking, is giving his opponent an advantage, while the defending player is always on the edge of losing. Welcome to the world of Zerg.
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Muta are too easy to control currently, making it so air units had a cap on amount you could select at once or have in a control group would probably work pretty well
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Imho a few perfectly placed storms and mutalisks are history.
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Hight templars are too slow, you can easily move your mutas out of the way before the high templar is even in range or you could just go kill the high templar trying to storm
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On November 07 2011 22:50 Nyast wrote:
Since a couple weeks, I played dozens of PvZs, and in the vast majority the Zerg went for mutas and won.
The problem I have with mutas is not the mutas themselves, there are counters to those. The problem is that it forces the Protoss to commit to the counter blindly, because the Zerg can switch tech at any moment without warnings. In some games, the Zerg will commit to 40 mutas with 2/2 upgrades, and if you don't have the tech counter at this moment ( mass blink stalkers, archons, templars ), you're in hell. However once you have your mass blink stalkers, archons and templars, in sufficient numbers to destroy 40 upgraded mutas.. the Zerg is on 5 bases and his T3 is ready. And suddenly you have no counter to BL/ultras, mass roaches, or whatever he reprods.
I've tried to base trade many times, unsuccessfully. Zerg's macro > Protoss macro, so he can easily hide expansions everywhere on the map with all the minerals he has accumulated ( usually thousands in the mid game ), while you're stuck with your immobile army, and he has lings and mutas running/flying everywhere. That, or you meet a wall of spines near his natural, and you lost a third of your army to kill them.
I see why you could end up having a problem if your Z enemies SUDDENLY techswitch to 40 2/2 Mutas and after that SUDDENLY have BL/Ultras.
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But these problems have not much to do with Mutas... It's probably that you let them Bank 10k Gas and never ever pressure them and all the while are getting outplayed like crazy...
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On November 08 2011 00:11 Vamp wrote:
Imho a few perfectly placed storms and mutalisks are history.
Play at my level and you will understand how wrong you are. First they won't engage you, they will just basetrade. Secondly, they dodge storms EZPZ. Storms suck vs muta, its just so painful.
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The problem with mutas is that they are highly mobile/flying XY axis attackers and can be controlled in mass. The combination of those attribute make them,... annoying to deal with. As you can't have 50 marines ready too fight off 40 mutas at every base. Missile Turrets while nice, as a deterent, isn't good enough to fight off a large muta flock
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On November 08 2011 00:43 AA.spoon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 00:11 Vamp wrote:
Imho a few perfectly placed storms and mutalisks are history. Play at my level and you will understand how wrong you are. First they won't engage you, they will just basetrade. Secondly, they dodge storms EZPZ. Storms suck vs muta, its just so painful.
Storms do not suck vs. muta. Even if zerg is dodging very well each storm gonna deal tons of damage. -20 damage on all mutas in 1 second or so are a lot. If toss has 5+ storms ready mutas are pretty much dead if they engage.
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Gotta agree with the people advocating storms.
It's true, not every storm is going to hit, and not every storm is going to last a full duration, but a couple storms lasting only seconds weakens mutas so badly that your stalkers or archons can spit on them and watch them die.
Whenever I go muta I find there's a huge lack of templar use by Protoss players. They go stalker archon but totally ignore storm - for the duration of the game even. You only need a couple temps hanging around to help do that damage - try it, it makes a huge difference.
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On November 08 2011 00:43 AA.spoon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 00:11 Vamp wrote:
Imho a few perfectly placed storms and mutalisks are history. Play at my level and you will understand how wrong you are. First they won't engage you, they will just basetrade. Secondly, they dodge storms EZPZ. Storms suck vs muta, its just so painful.
I play at High diamond MMR'd vs dia up to high masters, what do you play at? Gm ?
Imho storm is one of the best muta deterrants in the game aside from thor/fungal.
What you say is partly true if they see templars then they are less likely to engage them, but if you leave a few dotted around your main / expansions. Then you are free to attack with your main force knowing that you have atleast some chance of fending off the mass mutas at your base.
Aslong as you don't leave them blatently on view on the outer side of your mineral lines you have atleast some chance of getting off a few good unexpected storms. You can guarantee it will make the Z think twice before attacking your base again.
On the other side of things when zerg gets to that critical mass. If you have templars with your attacking army zerg has two choices, let you kill everything and never engage your army or fly over your army to prevent you from storming them.
You have a choice then to either storm yourself and move your army out of the storm or try to storm them as they are moving towards your army. Either way the storms are going to inflict enough damage to help your army finnish off the mutas.
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EPT
