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On November 07 2011 08:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:23 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:17 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:10 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units. cant mass banshee and win? Howbout Nestea vs SC in GSL RO32 this season? nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that? Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them. So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what. Of course he didn't scout it. sC was turtling and fended off any possible overlord scout with marines all around his base's perimeter. I'm not talking about mutalisks.
lol then this has nothing to do with the muta,were talking about 30 mutas and how stupid it is trying to defend againts it while putting pressure on the expanding zerg, not some gimmicky 1 base all in.
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On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units.
Strictly speaking, you will never win massing mutas - you need lings mixed in, at least.
I'm sure that you can come up with a lot of two-unit compositions that are able to win you games through sheer mass (just thinking of ZvZ, roach+infestor). Hell, P can arguably go mono-stalker with blink.
Then... I don't know, I really didn't like the tone that was used while talking about Select, but as somebody who doesn't know his playstyle, I'm interested to know: is he really that reliant on early game aggression? Is his macro game lacking compared to other progamers? If so, it's admittedly not a good idea to use one of his macro games as a proof in balance discussions.
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On November 07 2011 08:27 headdshot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:23 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:17 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:10 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units. cant mass banshee and win? Howbout Nestea vs SC in GSL RO32 this season? nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that? Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them. So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what. Of course he didn't scout it. sC was turtling and fended off any possible overlord scout with marines all around his base's perimeter. I'm not talking about mutalisks. lol then this has nothing to do with the muta,were talking about 30 mutas and how stupid it is trying to defend againts it while putting pressure on the expanding zerg, not some gimmicky 1 base all in.
you said how "i cant just mass banshees and win so zerg shouldnt be able to mass mutas" at whcih point we proved you wrong by providing a game where mass banshees let a lower level player beat a higher level player (nestea), that is why it's relevent.
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On November 07 2011 07:48 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 05:49 headdshot wrote:
so your argumant is that mvp doesnt have a problem with them so its balanced? how bout select getting sht on by idra with mass muta like 2 days ago, or not sure who it was but zvp on talderim last night in gsl, guy gets 20 mutas and toss just has 0 chance of taking his ( supposed easy to take) 3rd,sacking roaches and lings into the tosses army to slow it down so he can do more damage in the main wth the muta . Muta is just to mobile bottom line. Select is a shit terran who doesn't know how to macro, referencing any of his games as a point of imbalance against Terran is a clear indicator you have no idea what you're talking about. He gets shit on in any game that lasts longer than his cheese or overaggressive play intended. No shit the guy who never prepares for the mid or late game gets his ass handed to him in a macro game. There are plenty of ways to deal with mutas as terran, most of them require that you get off your ass and put pressure on the zerg so that he can't keep harassing your bases while you do nothing. You have drops and timing attacks that can comfortably arrive before Mutalisks. Multiple drops prevent the zerg from using his Mutalisks for offensive without taking economic damage and even then two drops at the same time are almost always capable of keeping the pressure on the Zerg instead of the other way around. Expanding towards your opponent lets you keep your main army with marines defending your third, while a single thor and turrets plus a handful of marines can defend your main and natural. any bad engagement by the Zerg allows you to move out and start the base race, which you will win since Mutas will have to deal with turrets and depending on upgrades each marine you have will have more or equal dps compared to a Muta giving you double the dps for the supply.
What?? SeleCT is one of the best foreigners out there. Have you watched his games against Dimaga at Blizzcon? That was some incredible macro on his part (namely the game on Shakuras Plateau I believe). And why shouldn't he be aggressive? It's hard to quantify, but I'd say that outside of Koreans he has the best control in the world. I don't necessarily agree with the person you quoted, but saying that SeleCT is shit is pretty ridiculous. I think that those games of IdrA vs SeleCT do not really show an imbalance, they both played extremely well, but IdrA played better.
That being said, I think that in TvZ, giant Mutalisk balls are extremely hard to deal with, just because of how much of a snowball effect they have. I think that the real problem with them is that two of the three ways to deal with Mutalisks (Turrets and Thors) become almost completely ineffective when the Mutalisk count gets high enough. Regardless of Armor or Range upgrades, there is no way that I am going to stop 20-30 Mutalisks from destroying my main base and all my SCVs. So long as the Zerg magic boxes, Thors (unless significantly ahead in upgrades) lose to giant flocks of Mutalisks; plus, Thors are so slow that there is no way to respond to Mutalisk harassment with them once you're taking your third or fourth base.
The only way to deal with Mutalisks in TvZ seems to be Marines, which still need Medivacs and need to be upgraded, but also happen to be extremely fragile against Banelings and Infestors. Because of the way that units clump together, they become extremely fragile when dealing with Banelings. Two burrowed banelings can easily cause a Terran to instantly lose the game because they lose their only anti-air and a huge flock of Mutalisks fly in, sit over the production, and force the Terran out of the game.
I'm not sure that I'm comfortable saying that Mutalisks are overpowered. I have won games where the Zerg gets a big Mutalisk ball. I've also lost games that I probably should have won against a large Mutalisk ball, but at the same time there were probably a number of mistakes that lead to me losing that game. I don't think it's imbalanced, but it's very difficult to deal with and if Blizzard is trying to add a more stable way of dealing with them as a Terran (the Warhound I guess) then it sounds like a good idea to me.
As far as PvZ goes, and I'm not sure if this still holds true but I know that it was at a time, Stalkers would prioritize ground units before Mutalisks. Stalkers should prioritize Mutalisks before they prioritize Zerglings or Roaches. I remember back when Thors would target Medivacs, I would rage wicked hard because I'd tell my army to go attack, and my Thor would be uselessly shooting at a Medivac for the entire fight as his Marauders and Marines destroyed it. Then I'd target a Marine, it would die, and my Thor would go right on back to shooting at the Medivac. I don't really know how much that would help the match-up, but I remember reading that if you attack Stalkers with Zerglings and Mutalisks then they will target the Zerglings first, and force the Protoss to individually target fire the Mutalisks, causing some of them to uselessly try to get through the Zerglings blocking them from getting into range of the targeted Mutalisk.
Also, just a final thing don't bother posting if you're going to write things like "Select is a shit terran." You're wrong, you know nothing about the game, and frankly nobody wants to see it. It's especially rude because of how much he's practiced and improved recently. He used to be a decent foreigner, but he's really kicked it up a notch, and labeling him as anything less than great is unfair and makes you look like a prick.
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United States15275 Posts
On November 07 2011 08:27 headdshot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:23 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:17 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:10 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units. cant mass banshee and win? Howbout Nestea vs SC in GSL RO32 this season? nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that? Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them. So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what. Of course he didn't scout it. sC was turtling and fended off any possible overlord scout with marines all around his base's perimeter. I'm not talking about mutalisks. lol then this has nothing to do with the muta,were talking about 30 mutas and how stupid it is trying to defend againts it while putting pressure on the expanding zerg, not some gimmicky 1 base all in.
It's not a huge problem in TvZ since it's mostly an indication that you are not pressuring your opponent.
In PvZ it's a lot worse.
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On November 07 2011 08:26 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:23 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:17 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:10 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units. cant mass banshee and win? Howbout Nestea vs SC in GSL RO32 this season? nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that? Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them. So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what. he was denied overlord scouting because an overlod will never get past a marine when a T is all inning off 1 base. He saw banshees as soon as they left SCs base and started spores, he had a spire coming but the spire was a bit late (you cant go early lair while T is sitting on1 base) he made a bunch of extra queens and spores and still lost to 1 base mass banshees. Honestly I don't know how this thread is even open still, the discussion is just silly, the level of discussion in this thread from people like headdshot is on the same level as blizzards forums, I really expected better discussion from a thread on TL.
Your posts aren't much better. Suggesting sim city to someone pointing out that a super fast 3rd is beyond risky for a protoss and blaming everything on "P are used to 1-2 base all is so that's why they're losing" is pretty silly in my eyes.
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On November 07 2011 08:29 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:27 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:23 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:17 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:10 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units. cant mass banshee and win? Howbout Nestea vs SC in GSL RO32 this season? nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that? Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them. So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what. Of course he didn't scout it. sC was turtling and fended off any possible overlord scout with marines all around his base's perimeter. I'm not talking about mutalisks. lol then this has nothing to do with the muta,were talking about 30 mutas and how stupid it is trying to defend againts it while putting pressure on the expanding zerg, not some gimmicky 1 base all in. you said how "i cant just mass banshees and win so zerg shouldnt be able to mass mutas" at whcih point we proved you wrong by providing a game where mass banshees let a lower level player beat a higher level player (nestea), that is why it's relevent.
mass banshees is no where near as viable as mass muta, its gimmicky how many people you see doing it? nestea got cought with his pants down, how does a 1 base banshee all in even compare to mass muta.I
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On November 07 2011 08:33 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:26 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:23 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:17 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:10 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units. cant mass banshee and win? Howbout Nestea vs SC in GSL RO32 this season? nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that? Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them. So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what. he was denied overlord scouting because an overlod will never get past a marine when a T is all inning off 1 base. He saw banshees as soon as they left SCs base and started spores, he had a spire coming but the spire was a bit late (you cant go early lair while T is sitting on1 base) he made a bunch of extra queens and spores and still lost to 1 base mass banshees. Honestly I don't know how this thread is even open still, the discussion is just silly, the level of discussion in this thread from people like headdshot is on the same level as blizzards forums, I really expected better discussion from a thread on TL. Your posts aren't much better. Suggesting sim city to someone pointing out that a super fast 3rd is beyond risky for a protoss and blaming everything on "P are used to 1-2 base all is so that's why they're losing" is pretty silly in my eyes.
Well as far as Korea is concerned Protoss players are relying on 1-2 base all-ins. I think that that is part of the reason why they aren't doing well, and then when you look at players like MaNa or HasuObs who have a macro oriented style they are able to destroy their opponents. As far as PvT is concerned, Protoss players in Korea seem to be far too reliant upon timing attacks, and as they start to get figured out they become more and more ineffective. There's too little innovation from Protoss players, but then when you have players like Sage or Puzzle (who have a much more macro-focused style) they do extremely well. But if you really want to write something directly at a person like your post why not write it in a PM, so that it doesn't destroy the chain of thought that should be a thread.
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On November 07 2011 08:28 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units. Strictly speaking, you will never win massing mutas - you need lings mixed in, at least. I'm sure that you can come up with a lot of two-unit compositions that are able to win you games through sheer mass (just thinking of ZvZ, roach+infestor). Hell, P can arguably go mono-stalker with blink. Then... I don't know, I really didn't like the tone that was used while talking about Select, but as somebody who doesn't know his playstyle, I'm interested to know: is he really that reliant on early game aggression? Is his macro game lacking compared to other progamers? If so, it's admittedly not a good idea to use one of his macro games as a proof in balance discussions.
Regardless of who you talk to, SeleCT's micro is his strong point. That's not to say that his macro is bad (which it isn't), but because he such good micro, he often times chooses (or SeleCTs haha) aggressive builds that showcase his micro and force his opponents to try to keep up with him. That being said, I have seen him micro large Bio balls better than any other player as well, and his macro is extremely good. Don't listen to trolls that say he's bad, they're wrong, he's easily one of the best foreigners.
If you want to see an example try to find SeleCT vs HuK on Tal'Darim Altar at NA Blizzcon Invitational.
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On November 07 2011 08:26 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:23 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:17 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:10 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units. cant mass banshee and win? Howbout Nestea vs SC in GSL RO32 this season? nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that? Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them. So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what. he was denied overlord scouting because an overlod will never get past a marine when a T is all inning off 1 base. He saw banshees as soon as they left SCs base and started spores, he had a spire coming but the spire was a bit late (you cant go early lair while T is sitting on1 base) he made a bunch of extra queens and spores and still lost to 1 base mass banshees. Honestly I don't know how this thread is even open still, the discussion is just silly, the level of discussion in this thread from people like headdshot is on the same level as blizzards forums, I really expected better discussion from a thread on TL.
Yah the guy bringing in a 1 base banshee all in game and comparing it to late game mass muta problem is really increasing the level of the discussion.
PS DUELIST.
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On November 07 2011 08:36 headdshot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:29 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:27 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:23 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:17 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:10 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units. cant mass banshee and win? Howbout Nestea vs SC in GSL RO32 this season? nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that? Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them. So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what. Of course he didn't scout it. sC was turtling and fended off any possible overlord scout with marines all around his base's perimeter. I'm not talking about mutalisks. lol then this has nothing to do with the muta,were talking about 30 mutas and how stupid it is trying to defend againts it while putting pressure on the expanding zerg, not some gimmicky 1 base all in. you said how "i cant just mass banshees and win so zerg shouldnt be able to mass mutas" at whcih point we proved you wrong by providing a game where mass banshees let a lower level player beat a higher level player (nestea), that is why it's relevent. mass banshees is no where near as viable as mass muta, its gimmicky how many people you see doing it? nestea got cought with his pants down, how does a 1 base banshee all in even compare to mass muta.I
If you are letting Zerg get "mass mutas" to the point where you think it's OP. You haven't been pressuring him enough in the early game, hence already lost. It's not like Zerg can pop 3000 gas out of his ass at any given time.
Should I get started on how effective mass 3/3 marines are? Or mass 3/3 Chargelots are? People would call these OP as well, but they aren't. It's just the fact the game has dragged on for so long, you need to find a means of dealing with it (like every race can).
I still can't believe I'm backing Zerg here because I can't stand the race, lol.
As the game stands now, I believe the game is balanced amongst all three races.... However HoTS is just going to be mind = blown in regards to how OP Zerg will be. I believe the viper unit is really going to test out our best Terrans micro, not only do we have to split against pretty much everything against zerg, but we will now have to dodge that blinding cloud crap whilst trying to snipe the viper off. I don't want to see my tanks getting the death grip.... lol.
Having the Viper, baneling, infestor AND muta is just going to be too much to deal with for the other races. I guess this is maybe why they are giving Toss and Terrans utilities that can more easily handle mutas.
P.S - I don't know about you other Terrans out there, but I can't wait to throw down some shredders and pump out Warhounds and Battle-Hellions!
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On November 07 2011 08:46 headdshot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:26 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:23 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:17 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:10 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units. cant mass banshee and win? Howbout Nestea vs SC in GSL RO32 this season? nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that? Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them. So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what. he was denied overlord scouting because an overlod will never get past a marine when a T is all inning off 1 base. He saw banshees as soon as they left SCs base and started spores, he had a spire coming but the spire was a bit late (you cant go early lair while T is sitting on1 base) he made a bunch of extra queens and spores and still lost to 1 base mass banshees. Honestly I don't know how this thread is even open still, the discussion is just silly, the level of discussion in this thread from people like headdshot is on the same level as blizzards forums, I really expected better discussion from a thread on TL. Yah the guy bringing in a 1 base banshee all in game and comparing it to late game mass muta problem is really increasing the level of the discussion. PS DUELIST.
actually I got glad in wow before I quit, but I do see you're still in diamond and arguing about balance, and when losing the argument bringing up the results for an inferior game (wow) which you don't get right either.
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On November 07 2011 08:53 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:46 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:26 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:23 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:17 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:10 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units. cant mass banshee and win? Howbout Nestea vs SC in GSL RO32 this season? nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that? Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them. So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what. he was denied overlord scouting because an overlod will never get past a marine when a T is all inning off 1 base. He saw banshees as soon as they left SCs base and started spores, he had a spire coming but the spire was a bit late (you cant go early lair while T is sitting on1 base) he made a bunch of extra queens and spores and still lost to 1 base mass banshees. Honestly I don't know how this thread is even open still, the discussion is just silly, the level of discussion in this thread from people like headdshot is on the same level as blizzards forums, I really expected better discussion from a thread on TL. Yah the guy bringing in a 1 base banshee all in game and comparing it to late game mass muta problem is really increasing the level of the discussion. PS DUELIST. actually I got glad in wow before I quit, but I do see you're still in diamond and arguing about balance, and when losing the argument bringing up the results for an inferior game (wow) which you don't get right either.
LOL i guess your just talking out of your ass again because im masters.. i dont see where i lost an argumant, you brought up 1 base 2 port banshee vs late game mass muta, you must be retarded to think you won something there. Im done with this post.
edit. im glad i took you off my b.net list, those bnet brodcasts where pathetic , 'toss op' 'terren ez' " why zerg so hard"
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On November 07 2011 08:56 headdshot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:53 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:46 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:26 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:23 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:17 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:10 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units. cant mass banshee and win? Howbout Nestea vs SC in GSL RO32 this season? nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that? Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them. So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what. he was denied overlord scouting because an overlod will never get past a marine when a T is all inning off 1 base. He saw banshees as soon as they left SCs base and started spores, he had a spire coming but the spire was a bit late (you cant go early lair while T is sitting on1 base) he made a bunch of extra queens and spores and still lost to 1 base mass banshees. Honestly I don't know how this thread is even open still, the discussion is just silly, the level of discussion in this thread from people like headdshot is on the same level as blizzards forums, I really expected better discussion from a thread on TL. Yah the guy bringing in a 1 base banshee all in game and comparing it to late game mass muta problem is really increasing the level of the discussion. PS DUELIST. actually I got glad in wow before I quit, but I do see you're still in diamond and arguing about balance, and when losing the argument bringing up the results for an inferior game (wow) which you don't get right either. LOL i guess your just talking out of your ass again because im masters.. i dont see where i lost an argumant, you brought up 1 base 2 port banshee vs late game mass muta, you must be retarded to think you won something there. Im done with this post. edit. im glad i took you off my b.net list, those bnet brodcasts where pathetic , 'toss op' 'terren ez' " why zerg so hard"
having fun making up stuff? You should probably go back to playing wow, you complaiend slightly less
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On November 07 2011 08:46 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:36 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:29 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:27 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:23 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:17 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:10 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:00 headdshot wrote:
Select is a "pro" first of all( i believe he would shit on you with his eyes closed, and no not a select fanboy at all) ,second of all you shouldnt be able to mass muta and win, i cant mass banshee and win can I?(because theres actually a viable counter) third of all double drops when mutas are out? yah so i can be forced to land in to banelings because he spotted me with an over lord and now i just lost 16 marines 2 meds for nothing,im not saying you cant drop when mutas are out but its usually a suacide for those units. cant mass banshee and win? Howbout Nestea vs SC in GSL RO32 this season? nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that? Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them. So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what. Of course he didn't scout it. sC was turtling and fended off any possible overlord scout with marines all around his base's perimeter. I'm not talking about mutalisks. lol then this has nothing to do with the muta,were talking about 30 mutas and how stupid it is trying to defend againts it while putting pressure on the expanding zerg, not some gimmicky 1 base all in. you said how "i cant just mass banshees and win so zerg shouldnt be able to mass mutas" at whcih point we proved you wrong by providing a game where mass banshees let a lower level player beat a higher level player (nestea), that is why it's relevent. mass banshees is no where near as viable as mass muta, its gimmicky how many people you see doing it? nestea got cought with his pants down, how does a 1 base banshee all in even compare to mass muta.I If you are letting Zerg get "mass mutas" to the point where you think it's OP. You haven't been pressuring him enough in the early game, hence already lost. It's not like Zerg can pop 3000 gas out of his ass at any given time.
That is such BS, the only reason people say that nowadays is because people like yourself have spouted that nonsense
since the beta. I have witnessed hundreds of games where Zerg got 30+ mutas, his opponent pressuring him or not doesn't mean shit if Zerg just plays well and focuses on eventually making mutalisks.
On November 07 2011 06:30 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 06:20 K3Nyy wrote:On November 07 2011 04:26 Big J wrote:On November 07 2011 04:00 K3Nyy wrote:On November 07 2011 03:51 Big J wrote:On November 07 2011 03:37 Piledriver wrote:On November 07 2011 03:23 FakeDeath wrote:
Mutas are not OP in general.People just started to realize that mutas allow you to gain map control over toss and the basically taking the map with expansion and forcing toss to go mass stalkers or phoenixes.Mutas are also great at base trading scenarios since they have better mobility than the toss deathballs. People were already doing ling+muta from beta days. The only reason they stopped doing it is because they were doing 2 base muta every game and getting shut down hard by 6 gate timings. Now zergs have realized that instead of rushing to 2 base muta, they can open roach + ling to fend of possible 6 gates and then tech switch into 3-4 base mass muta. Larva is only a decision in the early/mid game. Once you reach 3-4 bases, you are no longer limited by larva as long as you are injecting well, you can do an easy transition to ling muta, and the toss cant do squat about it unless he was preparing for it right from the beginning with phoenixes (in which case you would be retarded to get mutas instead of infestors which shut down air play). I think an good fix would be to increase the gas cost of roach slightly so that there is a real decision that zerg has to make whether he wants to spend his gas on roaches or save for mutas. Right now, 25 gas is laughably low especially on 3 base, and for the cost of 4 stalkers and 1 zealot, you can have 8 roaches which just crush that force. For an equal amount of minerals + gas, you get nearly twice the amount of roaches which beat both stalkers and zealots straight up, especially with upgrades. yeah and people where going double stargate in the beta before 6gate was discovered and then when you went muta you were dead... I don't get why you can't add in some corrupters and then make a bunch of lings and kill his ridiculously small army. I don't think you can ever go stargate in response to mutas and come out ahead. because you were doing that 2base vs 2base, which means you're dead as zerg if you're army doesn't do damage. Phoenix prevented the damage, Protoss wins... Your best bet were infestors, to maybe catch the phoenix at some point, but was really luck dependend and I guess you can imagine how low the mutacount stays if you have to transition into infestors of 2base... game spoiler: + Show Spoiler +If you're interested in "how to defend a player that goes 3base and switches into mutas after playing safe", watch White-Ra vs Idra game1 from the Asus invitational today... Did exactly what I'm saying all the time:
step 1: get a fast 3rd base (8mins for white ra)
step 2: keep scouting (warp prism harass seeing the hatching mutas)
step 3: even if you're caught with double robo pumping immortal and twilight council researching charge, you can win by transitioning into blink stalkers, getting some archons, playing safe for a short time and then just winning.
I'm pretty sure that double or triple stargate might work as well of 3bases, as long as you're playing safe and adding archons or storm to make lings useless. Thing is, of 2base you will never have enough stuff (be it stalkers, phoenix or whatever) to combat 3base mutalisks. Once you start harassing with mutas, you can start expanding freely. I dunno any zerg that would actually STAY on 2 bases when they are harassing. A fast 3rd dies by 8 mins to a lot of stuff, mainly everything. Double SG with Archons? When can you ever get that? When can you have enough phoenixes to counter mutas and have templar tech? Mutas vs double Robo is basically a build order win. There's no way to actually save the 3rd base for Protoss if he expanded. Robo is pretty useless vs Mutas and getting Twilight after investing that much money into Robo doesn't help either. I don't say this is how one should do it. I say this is how WhiteRa DID IT. WhiteRa went 8min 3rd base. WhiteRa went double robo. WhiteRa held the mutaattack. WhiteRa transitioned into Archons. WhiteRa rolled through the spinecrawler zergling/roach muta defense of Idra. Also WhiteRa went on to go for a 4min 3rd against Idra in another game and a 5min 3rd against Dimaga. This is how you play macro. You take risks. Do you think 3base base zerg openings don't include risks? They do, but matter of fact is that if you hold the allins over 50% of time, this is a good strategy...
You play Protoss and try to ladder with your 5 minute third and see how well you do. On what maps is that even possible? Xel Naga? No. Tal'Darim? Hell no. Shakuras? I doubt it. Unless you are talking about hidden expos in another main or some random corner of the map, which you can do but if that is how you think Protoss should 'play macro' then you might want to check your head in case there is a spike embedded somewhere in your brain.
Anything earlier than a third at 10 minutes is risky no matter what else has happened so far in the game assuming the Zerg is not unconscious. You can get away with it at 9 minutes maybe 50% of the time but you can't scout well enough at that point in time well enough to be able to determine if you actually can without having to cancel it. To offer some comparison, 3 gate expand (A perfectly valid build on many maps) starts a second nexus around 6 minutes. A bit earlier if there's no zerglings, up to 6:30 if you need to wait for your first warp in.
On November 07 2011 08:30 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 07:48 Ziggitz wrote:On November 07 2011 05:49 headdshot wrote:
so your argumant is that mvp doesnt have a problem with them so its balanced? how bout select getting sht on by idra with mass muta like 2 days ago, or not sure who it was but zvp on talderim last night in gsl, guy gets 20 mutas and toss just has 0 chance of taking his ( supposed easy to take) 3rd,sacking roaches and lings into the tosses army to slow it down so he can do more damage in the main wth the muta . Muta is just to mobile bottom line. Select is a shit terran who doesn't know how to macro, referencing any of his games as a point of imbalance against Terran is a clear indicator you have no idea what you're talking about. He gets shit on in any game that lasts longer than his cheese or overaggressive play intended. No shit the guy who never prepares for the mid or late game gets his ass handed to him in a macro game. There are plenty of ways to deal with mutas as terran, most of them require that you get off your ass and put pressure on the zerg so that he can't keep harassing your bases while you do nothing. You have drops and timing attacks that can comfortably arrive before Mutalisks. Multiple drops prevent the zerg from using his Mutalisks for offensive without taking economic damage and even then two drops at the same time are almost always capable of keeping the pressure on the Zerg instead of the other way around. Expanding towards your opponent lets you keep your main army with marines defending your third, while a single thor and turrets plus a handful of marines can defend your main and natural. any bad engagement by the Zerg allows you to move out and start the base race, which you will win since Mutas will have to deal with turrets and depending on upgrades each marine you have will have more or equal dps compared to a Muta giving you double the dps for the supply. As far as PvZ goes, and I'm not sure if this still holds true but I know that it was at a time, Stalkers would prioritize ground units before Mutalisks. Stalkers should prioritize Mutalisks before they prioritize Zerglings or Roaches. I remember back when Thors would target Medivacs, I would rage wicked hard because I'd tell my army to go attack, and my Thor would be uselessly shooting at a Medivac for the entire fight as his Marauders and Marines destroyed it. Then I'd target a Marine, it would die, and my Thor would go right on back to shooting at the Medivac. I don't really know how much that would help the match-up, but I remember reading that if you attack Stalkers with Zerglings and Mutalisks then they will target the Zerglings first, and force the Protoss to individually target fire the Mutalisks, causing some of them to uselessly try to get through the Zerglings blocking them from getting into range of the targeted Mutalisk.
Everything this guy has said is pretty much true. Stalkers always target lings before mutas and it really hurts in big battles. It is manageable enough if Zerg only has ~12 mutas but if the battle gets much bigger than that then it really is not feasible to target micro.
edit: same thing occurs vs banshees in a 1/1/1 and it's just as bad, because you only have ~5 seconds to kill them before your 4 observers die
On November 07 2011 09:23 Oreo7 wrote:
I dunno how to deal with mutas if I open stargate, simply no idea.
You hope he sees the stargate and doesn't get a spire, or gets less than 10 mutas and sees a few pheonixes and doesn't decide to either make mass muta or corrupters.
Same thing really when you have like 4 cannons and he has 30 mutas, you just hope that it is the kind of Zerg that will run away ;;
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I dunno how to deal with mutas if I open stargate, simply no idea.
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I think there is a point when the muta numbers get high enough its impossible to lose if you have perfect micro. The difference between protoss and terran is as a terran you can assume he is going to make muta and you will be most likely right. The thor range + marines is much better defending a base from muta than anything protoss have. So the number of mutas needed to reach that point is actually a lot smaller for pvz than zvt. Combined with roach ling being decent vs protoss meaning protoss cant assume muta and still be safe vs other things. Leaves protoss players with very little room for error. Calling for muta to be nerfed is completely wrong protoss need a buff somewhere so the number of muta required to reach that critical point is higher.
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On November 07 2011 09:16 Geovu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:46 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 07 2011 08:36 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:29 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:27 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:23 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:17 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:10 hunts wrote:
[quote]
cant mass banshee and win? Howbout Nestea vs SC in GSL RO32 this season? nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that? Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them. So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what. Of course he didn't scout it. sC was turtling and fended off any possible overlord scout with marines all around his base's perimeter. I'm not talking about mutalisks. lol then this has nothing to do with the muta,were talking about 30 mutas and how stupid it is trying to defend againts it while putting pressure on the expanding zerg, not some gimmicky 1 base all in. you said how "i cant just mass banshees and win so zerg shouldnt be able to mass mutas" at whcih point we proved you wrong by providing a game where mass banshees let a lower level player beat a higher level player (nestea), that is why it's relevent. mass banshees is no where near as viable as mass muta, its gimmicky how many people you see doing it? nestea got cought with his pants down, how does a 1 base banshee all in even compare to mass muta.I If you are letting Zerg get "mass mutas" to the point where you think it's OP. You haven't been pressuring him enough in the early game, hence already lost. It's not like Zerg can pop 3000 gas out of his ass at any given time. That is such BS, the only reason people say that nowadays is because people like yourself have spouted that nonsense since the beta. I have witnessed hundreds of games where Zerg got 30+ mutas, his opponent pressuring him or not doesn't mean shit if Zerg just plays well and focuses on eventually making mutalisks.
Stop for a moment. Think logically. You're saying that if Z plays well enough, they can mass up 30 mutas despite pressure.
I'd like to point out that if Z plays well enough, they can do pretty much anything. This is obvious: if somebody (P, Z or T) plays well enough, they can win the game.
On November 07 2011 09:16 Geovu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:30 The Final Boss wrote:On November 07 2011 07:48 Ziggitz wrote:On November 07 2011 05:49 headdshot wrote:
so your argumant is that mvp doesnt have a problem with them so its balanced? how bout select getting sht on by idra with mass muta like 2 days ago, or not sure who it was but zvp on talderim last night in gsl, guy gets 20 mutas and toss just has 0 chance of taking his ( supposed easy to take) 3rd,sacking roaches and lings into the tosses army to slow it down so he can do more damage in the main wth the muta . Muta is just to mobile bottom line. Select is a shit terran who doesn't know how to macro, referencing any of his games as a point of imbalance against Terran is a clear indicator you have no idea what you're talking about. He gets shit on in any game that lasts longer than his cheese or overaggressive play intended. No shit the guy who never prepares for the mid or late game gets his ass handed to him in a macro game. There are plenty of ways to deal with mutas as terran, most of them require that you get off your ass and put pressure on the zerg so that he can't keep harassing your bases while you do nothing. You have drops and timing attacks that can comfortably arrive before Mutalisks. Multiple drops prevent the zerg from using his Mutalisks for offensive without taking economic damage and even then two drops at the same time are almost always capable of keeping the pressure on the Zerg instead of the other way around. Expanding towards your opponent lets you keep your main army with marines defending your third, while a single thor and turrets plus a handful of marines can defend your main and natural. any bad engagement by the Zerg allows you to move out and start the base race, which you will win since Mutas will have to deal with turrets and depending on upgrades each marine you have will have more or equal dps compared to a Muta giving you double the dps for the supply. As far as PvZ goes, and I'm not sure if this still holds true but I know that it was at a time, Stalkers would prioritize ground units before Mutalisks. Stalkers should prioritize Mutalisks before they prioritize Zerglings or Roaches. I remember back when Thors would target Medivacs, I would rage wicked hard because I'd tell my army to go attack, and my Thor would be uselessly shooting at a Medivac for the entire fight as his Marauders and Marines destroyed it. Then I'd target a Marine, it would die, and my Thor would go right on back to shooting at the Medivac. I don't really know how much that would help the match-up, but I remember reading that if you attack Stalkers with Zerglings and Mutalisks then they will target the Zerglings first, and force the Protoss to individually target fire the Mutalisks, causing some of them to uselessly try to get through the Zerglings blocking them from getting into range of the targeted Mutalisk. Everything this guy has said is pretty much true. Stalkers always target lings before mutas and it really hurts in big battles. It is manageable enough if Zerg only has ~12 mutas but if the battle gets much bigger than that then it really is not feasible to target micro.
As far as I know mutalisks, zerglings and roaches have the same attack priority for stalkers. Since the AI resolves ties in target priority by picking the closest one, it means that the AI will target zerglings before mutalisks. Roaches will not be targeted first, since they sit at a higher (4) range, unless Z micros them closer to the P ball... which is often done, since they're lower range than stalkers and you'd therefore risk them dancing uselessly behind the first line.
This should also be why zealot+stalker against ling+muta has a chance, unlike mono-stalker. Zealots block the advance of zerglings, while mutas fly towards the stalkers because their AI sees zealots as lower priority than stalkers (they can't shoot at mutas).
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On November 07 2011 09:31 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:16 Geovu wrote:On November 07 2011 08:46 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 07 2011 08:36 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:29 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:27 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:23 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:17 headdshot wrote:
[quote]
nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that? Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them. So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what. Of course he didn't scout it. sC was turtling and fended off any possible overlord scout with marines all around his base's perimeter. I'm not talking about mutalisks. lol then this has nothing to do with the muta,were talking about 30 mutas and how stupid it is trying to defend againts it while putting pressure on the expanding zerg, not some gimmicky 1 base all in. you said how "i cant just mass banshees and win so zerg shouldnt be able to mass mutas" at whcih point we proved you wrong by providing a game where mass banshees let a lower level player beat a higher level player (nestea), that is why it's relevent. mass banshees is no where near as viable as mass muta, its gimmicky how many people you see doing it? nestea got cought with his pants down, how does a 1 base banshee all in even compare to mass muta.I If you are letting Zerg get "mass mutas" to the point where you think it's OP. You haven't been pressuring him enough in the early game, hence already lost. It's not like Zerg can pop 3000 gas out of his ass at any given time. That is such BS, the only reason people say that nowadays is because people like yourself have spouted that nonsense since the beta. I have witnessed hundreds of games where Zerg got 30+ mutas, his opponent pressuring him or not doesn't mean shit if Zerg just plays well and focuses on eventually making mutalisks. Stop for a moment. Think logically. You're saying that if Z plays well enough, they can mass up 30 mutas despite pressure. I'd like to point out that if Z plays well enough, they can do pretty much anything. This is obvious: if somebody (P, Z or T) plays well enough, they can win the game. Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:16 Geovu wrote:On November 07 2011 08:30 The Final Boss wrote:On November 07 2011 07:48 Ziggitz wrote:On November 07 2011 05:49 headdshot wrote:
so your argumant is that mvp doesnt have a problem with them so its balanced? how bout select getting sht on by idra with mass muta like 2 days ago, or not sure who it was but zvp on talderim last night in gsl, guy gets 20 mutas and toss just has 0 chance of taking his ( supposed easy to take) 3rd,sacking roaches and lings into the tosses army to slow it down so he can do more damage in the main wth the muta . Muta is just to mobile bottom line. Select is a shit terran who doesn't know how to macro, referencing any of his games as a point of imbalance against Terran is a clear indicator you have no idea what you're talking about. He gets shit on in any game that lasts longer than his cheese or overaggressive play intended. No shit the guy who never prepares for the mid or late game gets his ass handed to him in a macro game. There are plenty of ways to deal with mutas as terran, most of them require that you get off your ass and put pressure on the zerg so that he can't keep harassing your bases while you do nothing. You have drops and timing attacks that can comfortably arrive before Mutalisks. Multiple drops prevent the zerg from using his Mutalisks for offensive without taking economic damage and even then two drops at the same time are almost always capable of keeping the pressure on the Zerg instead of the other way around. Expanding towards your opponent lets you keep your main army with marines defending your third, while a single thor and turrets plus a handful of marines can defend your main and natural. any bad engagement by the Zerg allows you to move out and start the base race, which you will win since Mutas will have to deal with turrets and depending on upgrades each marine you have will have more or equal dps compared to a Muta giving you double the dps for the supply. As far as PvZ goes, and I'm not sure if this still holds true but I know that it was at a time, Stalkers would prioritize ground units before Mutalisks. Stalkers should prioritize Mutalisks before they prioritize Zerglings or Roaches. I remember back when Thors would target Medivacs, I would rage wicked hard because I'd tell my army to go attack, and my Thor would be uselessly shooting at a Medivac for the entire fight as his Marauders and Marines destroyed it. Then I'd target a Marine, it would die, and my Thor would go right on back to shooting at the Medivac. I don't really know how much that would help the match-up, but I remember reading that if you attack Stalkers with Zerglings and Mutalisks then they will target the Zerglings first, and force the Protoss to individually target fire the Mutalisks, causing some of them to uselessly try to get through the Zerglings blocking them from getting into range of the targeted Mutalisk. Everything this guy has said is pretty much true. Stalkers always target lings before mutas and it really hurts in big battles. It is manageable enough if Zerg only has ~12 mutas but if the battle gets much bigger than that then it really is not feasible to target micro. As far as I know mutalisks, zerglings and roaches have the same attack priority for stalkers. Since the AI resolves ties in target priority by picking the closest one, it means that the AI will target zerglings before mutalisks. Roaches will not be targeted first, since they sit at a higher (4) range, unless Z micros them closer to the P ball... which is often done, since they're lower range than stalkers and you'd therefore risk them dancing uselessly behind the first line. This should also be why zealot+stalker against ling+muta has a chance, unlike mono-stalker. Zealots block the advance of zerglings, while mutas fly towards the stalkers because their AI sees zealots as lower priority than stalkers (they can't shoot at mutas).
Well if what you're saying is true, I think that Blizzard should experiment with the target priorities of the Stalker, to see if changing it would have any effect on Stalkers and in turn the effectiveness of Mutalisks.
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On November 07 2011 09:31 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:16 Geovu wrote:On November 07 2011 08:46 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 07 2011 08:36 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:29 hunts wrote:On November 07 2011 08:27 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:23 headdshot wrote:On November 07 2011 08:21 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 07 2011 08:17 headdshot wrote:
[quote]
nestea didnt get muta to hard counter the banshee i guess? was he super behind or something? you cant win with banshee because you cant shoot up not sure if you know that? Nestea prepared against every one-base all-in except 2 port banshee. He got down 5-6 spores but the banshees just outmaneuvered them. So he lost to an all in that he didnt scout and now you comparing banshees to mutas ? what. Of course he didn't scout it. sC was turtling and fended off any possible overlord scout with marines all around his base's perimeter. I'm not talking about mutalisks. lol then this has nothing to do with the muta,were talking about 30 mutas and how stupid it is trying to defend againts it while putting pressure on the expanding zerg, not some gimmicky 1 base all in. you said how "i cant just mass banshees and win so zerg shouldnt be able to mass mutas" at whcih point we proved you wrong by providing a game where mass banshees let a lower level player beat a higher level player (nestea), that is why it's relevent. mass banshees is no where near as viable as mass muta, its gimmicky how many people you see doing it? nestea got cought with his pants down, how does a 1 base banshee all in even compare to mass muta.I If you are letting Zerg get "mass mutas" to the point where you think it's OP. You haven't been pressuring him enough in the early game, hence already lost. It's not like Zerg can pop 3000 gas out of his ass at any given time. That is such BS, the only reason people say that nowadays is because people like yourself have spouted that nonsense since the beta. I have witnessed hundreds of games where Zerg got 30+ mutas, his opponent pressuring him or not doesn't mean shit if Zerg just plays well and focuses on eventually making mutalisks. Stop for a moment. Think logically. You're saying that if Z plays well enough, they can mass up 30 mutas despite pressure. I'd like to point out that if Z plays well enough, they can do pretty much anything. This is obvious: if somebody (P, Z or T) plays well enough, they can win the game.
That was the point I was trying to make, dunno why you appear to think I was saying something else.
I also wasn't trying to imply that after Zerg makes 30 mutalisks they autowin. That's obviously not true (Terrans don't win as soon as the tech lab on their starport finishes in TvP); I was simply trying to dispel the myth that "If you play properly (E.G. Pressure Zerg) you can prevent him from making mutalisks, period."
The "Well if you let him get 'X' you just lose" idea is simply not true, at least not in the manner most people use it. People used to say "If you let Protoss too many Void Rays AND Collosus, you just lose." That's obviously not true now and it wasn't true at any point in time, it's just at that certain point in the metagame (Whether due to patches or not I'm not going to argue, I don't really care) if Protoss DID happen to get to that point in the game, they usually had a very high likelyhood of winning. In my opinion PvZ is in a similar situation, except with mutalisks. Obviously it's a bit different, because you can base race and stuff, but from my experience unless Zerg is silly and A-moves into a full Toss army with storm and archons, Zerg has a very high likelyhood of winning.
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