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Simply look at ASUS ROG Final, Idra mass mutas and just won, no matters what Select could do.
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On November 06 2011 00:51 BlitzerSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 00:48 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 00:46 K3Nyy wrote:On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already. No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about. Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread. White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem. Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret.
Even KiwiKaKi did a really early third in both his games vs Morrow in NASL and eventually died to mutas in the second game and to broodlord ling infestor in the first game. I'm just learning to ignore Big J these days. He just parrots his own viewpoints in every single PvZ thread without actually looking at the outcome of the games in which the toss tried to expand before 10 minutes. Can toss expand before 10 mintues? Sure. Does it give him any advantage? 9/10 times it doesnt because he cant pressure the zerg and the zerg take 2-3 extra bases because of passive toss and either outmacro him or just harass the f!@# out of him with mutas because he's too spread out on three bases.
Funny enough I think mutas are such a problem in PvZ because we dont have a 100 mineral AA like the turret which is effective in killing mutas. Cannons are pretty bad because of their low firing speed, which lets a flock of mutas quickly wipe it without taking more than 2 hits.
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On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched.
-) Mutalisk give map control a toss taking a third difficult because if you split your army the zerg masses everything into one base and just wrecks your split army.
-) I can guarantee that in the early-mid game a toss will keep up with Zerg in worker production until mutalisk pop after 10 mutalisk Zerg drones up hard takes a 3rd/4th and the toss cant move off of 2 bases for fear of a base race they wont win.
No i will whine about units because im not a fucking pro or high level i dont spend my days browsing TL trying to be the next HuK, i dont ever plan on playing SC competitively i plan on playing a casual amount trying to be high diamond hell even masters if i could. Using the excuse "you can't play macro games watch high level replays", DONT WORK, i dont have the mechanics of the pro. The problem Toss has with Muta-ling is that once a zerg has at least 10 mutalisk it becomes a much easier game for the Zerg and suddenly the Toss is in a shit storm.
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Canada13389 Posts
On November 06 2011 00:55 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 00:51 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 06 2011 00:48 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 00:46 K3Nyy wrote:On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already. No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about. Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread. White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem. Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret. Idra lost to hallucinated void rays, still I'm not whining about hallucinated void rays. what do you want to tell me with that? That Mutalisks are imba because they're available?
No people are trying to say that protoss doesnt have as good an answer to the mutalisk as Terran does (excluding the mirror matchup btw).
Protoss can't quite move out very effectively against mutalisks. Stalkers are bad against lings and trade somewhat evenly against mutalisks. Cannons aren't an adequate answer to base defense since they cost more than turrets and cannot be repaired. I have seen mutas deflected while terran pushes forward thanks to repairs on turrets many times in the past.
Protoss can't expand effectively against mutas since small numbers of stalkers are terrible against them and they cost enough that having large numbers of stalkers at every base isn't necessarily feasible. Pushing against a large muta ball usually results in a base trade that protoss can never really win.
Nothing forces Zerg to spend gas on anything but mutalisks so they can spend every ounce of gas they get in mutalisks which not only get stronger as they gain in numbers but are increasingly difficult to kill as they frow in numbers because protoss doesn't have any adequate anti air splash units at all. The range of 3 on archons means they don't zone out air space like thors do and the fact stalkers do less dps to mutas than marines also doesn't help.
Pheonixes have one extra range and are faster but 4 range isn't helpful in microing against mutas which can snap turn and then kill the pheonixes which can't be massed as easily as mutas and dont have an AtG attack. Tech switches to any sort of ground unit makes the pheonix useless.
Storm isn't really all that effective unless the muta player sits in the storm.
I would also like to see how mutas interact with workers since probes have less health than the other workers. SCVs have 45 hp so they take one extra glaive wurm to kill (2nd bounce and 3rd). Similarly drones always recover hp so by the time they get attacked a 2nd time they also take an extra glaive wurm bounce to kill (they go from 40 to 35 to 36).
There's also a reason why Blizzard wants to introduce an AtA splash unit in HotS. They outright said that muta balls of 30-50 are almost impossible for protoss to deal with based on how the race is currently designed.
Im not saying they are imba outright, im sure theres something that we can do or a small tweak to protoss units that can help against mutas but you seem to be writing everyone off in this thread aggresively. Your points can be summed up as follows:
Mutas aren't imba you just dont deal with it right. Expand to 3 base before 10 minutes as protoss or go for a 7 gate timing attack before the spire is done. No substance on how to really deal with them not suggestions on being able to expand once mutas are out either. Terran can expo once mutas are on the field so why does protoss seem to have an issue with it?
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On November 06 2011 01:06 DreamChaser wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. -) Mutalisk give map control a toss taking a third difficult because if you split your army the zerg masses everything into one base and just wrecks your split army. -) I can guarantee that in the early-mid game a toss will keep up with Zerg in worker production until mutalisk pop after 10 mutalisk Zerg drones up hard takes a 3rd/4th and the toss cant move off of 2 bases for fear of a base race they wont win. No i will whine about units because im not a fucking pro or high level i dont spend my days browsing TL trying to be the next HuK, i dont ever plan on playing SC competitively i plan on playing a casual amount trying to be high diamond hell even masters if i could. Using the excuse "you can't play macro games watch high level replays", DONT WORK, i dont have the mechanics of the pro. The problem Toss has with Muta-ling is that once a zerg has at least 10 mutalisk it becomes a much easier game for the Zerg and suddenly the Toss is in a shit storm.
Your post makes little to no sense, you argue that muta-ling is so strong on your level, despite the fact that yourself claim youre nowhere near high level or pro. Common sense would tell me that the problem is your game play style/and level of play, not the unit imbalance. That being said, Idra, MC, or 9/10 other pros, could beat 99.99999% of people without their "power" units. It's because they're better, not the units. I.E. get better don't blame the game.
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On November 06 2011 01:08 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 00:55 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 00:51 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 06 2011 00:48 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 00:46 K3Nyy wrote:On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already. No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about. Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread. White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem. Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret. Idra lost to hallucinated void rays, still I'm not whining about hallucinated void rays. what do you want to tell me with that? That Mutalisks are imba because they're available? Pheonixes have one extra range and are faster but 4 range isn't helpful in microing against mutas which can snap turn and then kill the pheonixes which can't be massed as easily as mutas and dont have an AtG attack. Tech switches to any sort of ground unit makes the pheonix useless.
Sooo, give phoenix +1 range? 
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On November 06 2011 01:03 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 00:51 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 06 2011 00:48 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 00:46 K3Nyy wrote:On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already. No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about. Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread. White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem. Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret. Even KiwiKaKi did a really early third in both his games vs Morrow in NASL and eventually died to mutas in the second game and to broodlord ling infestor in the first game. I'm just learning to ignore Big J these days. He just parrots his own viewpoints in every single PvZ thread without actually looking at the outcome of the games in which the toss tried to expand before 10 minutes. Can toss expand before 10 mintues? Sure. Does it give him any advantage? 9/10 times it doesnt because he cant pressure the zerg and the zerg take 2-3 extra bases because of passive toss and either outmacro him or just harass the f!@# out of him with mutas because he's too spread out on three bases. Funny enough I think mutas are such a problem in PvZ because we dont have a 100 mineral AA like the turret which is effective in killing mutas. Cannons are pretty bad because of their low firing speed, which lets a flock of mutas quickly wipe it without taking more than 2 hits.
Here is thread in which you will find people talking about fast 3rd bases and you will find a lot of examples of games in which a Protoss won a game through that against Zerg. The opening post even mentions explicitly how White-Ra is able to take some damage from a Zerg that goes Mutalisks without getting behind, through the big economical advantages this has over Protoss builds that take their thirds later.
[D] PvZ quick 3rd on gateway tech
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280293
There are 3blue (Protoss) posters in there, who all agree that taking a fast third of relative low tech is quite strong.
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people should really stop talking about "just do 2 base allin blablabla...". zerg dont go for 2 base muta/ling anymore. they take a quick third into roach/ling to defend 2 base allins and then transition into mutalisk.
for me as a protoss player(top ~300 eu) pvz has evolved to my worst matchup since most of the zerg go for mutalisk nearly every game. not saying it´s imba or anything, but i just feel so lost in this mu at the moment.
as soon as mutalisk are out i simply can never put any pressure on my opponent which leads to a basically free map for the zerg and from there on i dont see a way to win the game. most of the time it´s just a desperate 200/200 push out of 3 bases and zerg either has made a transition into broodlord/infestor or he just basetrades with mass muta/ling and i lose anyway.
really hope some of the top protoss players show how to play vs mutalisk succesfully or blizzard does something(before hots).
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On November 04 2011 14:35 Welmu wrote:
I honestly think that it was necessary to get more muta counters in HOTS. They are used at the moment over than 1/3 games of PvZ and if Zerg manages to start producing mutas, before you scout Spire you are already hugely behind (if you are not going something like mass blink or 2 stargate phoenix blindly).
The most problematic thing isn't straight Mutas, but people starting to realize that you don't have to go muta straight away. They just do some roach/ling action first and then suddenly there pops out 10 mutas. Only good response imo against mutas atm is 2 stargate phoenix since blink stalkers damage output is reallyyy bad and even though you would manage to hit mutas with storm they could go back to regnerate their hp. Wise zergs wouldnt never straight engage many templars. Also one more problem with mutas is that if you want to manage to handle them you have to commit a lot money to anti-air + cannons and zergs can easily switch out to roach/hydra ling/infestor/ling whatever army and not to just keep massing mutas all game long (even tho its very strong too)
You obviously know PvZ a lot better than I do, but don't a lot of Protoss players go Blink blindly anyways. i remember reading about the Chinese players like  Hotmail or LoveTT dominating players using pure Blink Stalkers and really good micro. Also, if you don't scout the Zerg going Spire, you should end up being hugely behind. Isn't it the exact same way with builds like 2 Stargate? If the Zerg doesn't scout Double Stargate, it can absolutely destroy their economy, and similarly if the Protoss doesn't scout Spire then Mutalisks will ruin their economy. Also, as far as High Templar not being good, if you stop the Zerg from straight engaging your Templar, doesn't that mean that you've deflected the harassment and you can move out, expand, and attack the Zerg? Plus, if they fall back to regenerate health, you have time to get more energy, or if you really find yourself desperate, make a few archons. Supported with Cannons I feel that that would be a good way to hold off Mutalisk harassment.
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Canada13389 Posts
On November 06 2011 01:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 01:03 Piledriver wrote:On November 06 2011 00:51 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 06 2011 00:48 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 00:46 K3Nyy wrote:On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already. No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about. Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread. White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem. Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret. Even KiwiKaKi did a really early third in both his games vs Morrow in NASL and eventually died to mutas in the second game and to broodlord ling infestor in the first game. I'm just learning to ignore Big J these days. He just parrots his own viewpoints in every single PvZ thread without actually looking at the outcome of the games in which the toss tried to expand before 10 minutes. Can toss expand before 10 mintues? Sure. Does it give him any advantage? 9/10 times it doesnt because he cant pressure the zerg and the zerg take 2-3 extra bases because of passive toss and either outmacro him or just harass the f!@# out of him with mutas because he's too spread out on three bases. Funny enough I think mutas are such a problem in PvZ because we dont have a 100 mineral AA like the turret which is effective in killing mutas. Cannons are pretty bad because of their low firing speed, which lets a flock of mutas quickly wipe it without taking more than 2 hits. Here is thread in which you will find people talking about fast 3rd bases and you will find a lot of examples of games in which a Protoss won a game through that against Zerg. The opening post even mentions explicitly how White-Ra is able to take some damage from a Zerg that goes Mutalisks without getting behind, through the big economical advantages this has over Protoss builds that take their thirds later. [D] PvZ quick 3rd on gateway techhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280293There are 3blue (Protoss) posters in there, who all agree that taking a fast third of relative low tech is quite strong.
but you seem to be equating fast protoss third with defends and kills mutalisk based builds. this simply is not necessarily the case. Having 3 bases is nice but large muta balls are still highly problematic. This seems to ignore the core problems in engaging or defending mutalisks as a protoss player.
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On November 06 2011 01:33 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 01:15 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 01:03 Piledriver wrote:On November 06 2011 00:51 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 06 2011 00:48 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 00:46 K3Nyy wrote:On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already. No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about. Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread. White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem. Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret. Even KiwiKaKi did a really early third in both his games vs Morrow in NASL and eventually died to mutas in the second game and to broodlord ling infestor in the first game. I'm just learning to ignore Big J these days. He just parrots his own viewpoints in every single PvZ thread without actually looking at the outcome of the games in which the toss tried to expand before 10 minutes. Can toss expand before 10 mintues? Sure. Does it give him any advantage? 9/10 times it doesnt because he cant pressure the zerg and the zerg take 2-3 extra bases because of passive toss and either outmacro him or just harass the f!@# out of him with mutas because he's too spread out on three bases. Funny enough I think mutas are such a problem in PvZ because we dont have a 100 mineral AA like the turret which is effective in killing mutas. Cannons are pretty bad because of their low firing speed, which lets a flock of mutas quickly wipe it without taking more than 2 hits. Here is thread in which you will find people talking about fast 3rd bases and you will find a lot of examples of games in which a Protoss won a game through that against Zerg. The opening post even mentions explicitly how White-Ra is able to take some damage from a Zerg that goes Mutalisks without getting behind, through the big economical advantages this has over Protoss builds that take their thirds later. [D] PvZ quick 3rd on gateway techhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280293There are 3blue (Protoss) posters in there, who all agree that taking a fast third of relative low tech is quite strong. but you seem to be equating fast protoss third with defends and kills mutalisk based builds. this simply is not necessarily the case. Having 3 bases is nice but large muta balls are still highly problematic. This seems to ignore the core problems in engaging or defending mutalisks as a protoss player.
Large muta balls are "highly problematic"?
So you're saying allowing a Zerg player to get 3000 gas worth of units isn't going to be problematic?
If you open up FFE --> 5-6 gate robo (robo first for obs), you should scout the spire with plenty of time to respond. Minigun recommends doing a 6 gate attack while taking a third and immediately teching to templar. You don't have to kill the Zerg, just kill his third.
But most protosses don't care about this and try to kill the zerg, lose all their units, then say it's OP.
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Canada13389 Posts
On November 06 2011 01:39 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 01:33 ZeromuS wrote:On November 06 2011 01:15 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 01:03 Piledriver wrote:On November 06 2011 00:51 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 06 2011 00:48 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 00:46 K3Nyy wrote:On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:
[quote]
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is:
-) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes
-) 3-4base vs 2base
-) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers
stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already. No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about. Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread. White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem. Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret. Even KiwiKaKi did a really early third in both his games vs Morrow in NASL and eventually died to mutas in the second game and to broodlord ling infestor in the first game. I'm just learning to ignore Big J these days. He just parrots his own viewpoints in every single PvZ thread without actually looking at the outcome of the games in which the toss tried to expand before 10 minutes. Can toss expand before 10 mintues? Sure. Does it give him any advantage? 9/10 times it doesnt because he cant pressure the zerg and the zerg take 2-3 extra bases because of passive toss and either outmacro him or just harass the f!@# out of him with mutas because he's too spread out on three bases. Funny enough I think mutas are such a problem in PvZ because we dont have a 100 mineral AA like the turret which is effective in killing mutas. Cannons are pretty bad because of their low firing speed, which lets a flock of mutas quickly wipe it without taking more than 2 hits. Here is thread in which you will find people talking about fast 3rd bases and you will find a lot of examples of games in which a Protoss won a game through that against Zerg. The opening post even mentions explicitly how White-Ra is able to take some damage from a Zerg that goes Mutalisks without getting behind, through the big economical advantages this has over Protoss builds that take their thirds later. [D] PvZ quick 3rd on gateway techhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280293There are 3blue (Protoss) posters in there, who all agree that taking a fast third of relative low tech is quite strong. but you seem to be equating fast protoss third with defends and kills mutalisk based builds. this simply is not necessarily the case. Having 3 bases is nice but large muta balls are still highly problematic. This seems to ignore the core problems in engaging or defending mutalisks as a protoss player. Large muta balls are "highly problematic"? So you're saying allowing a Zerg player to get 3000 gas worth of units isn't going to be problematic? If you open up FFE --> 5-6 gate robo (robo first for obs), you should scout the spire with plenty of time to respond. Minigun recommends doing a 6 gate attack while taking a third and immediately teching to templar. You don't have to kill the Zerg, just kill his third. But most protosses don't care about this and try to kill the zerg, lose all their units, then say it's OP.
I know to attack but like Welmu posted earlier im not necessarily referring to a go straight to 30 muta muta ball. but instead a harass with ground army and perhaps a switch to many mutas later on.
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On November 06 2011 01:13 Mr.Pyro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 01:08 ZeromuS wrote:
Pheonixes have one extra range and are faster but 4 range isn't helpful in microing against mutas which can snap turn and then kill the pheonixes which can't be massed as easily as mutas and dont have an AtG attack. Tech switches to any sort of ground unit makes the pheonix useless.
Sooo, give phoenix +1 range?
No, just give us corsairs and aoe attack that they have and it will be ok. Not that crappy phoenixes with single target attack. Protoss in Sc2 has only blink stalkers vs muta, in bw there was dragoons, corsairs, archons and templars. All 4 units are changed so bad in sc2 that mutas are just OP.
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On November 06 2011 01:41 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 01:39 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 06 2011 01:33 ZeromuS wrote:On November 06 2011 01:15 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 01:03 Piledriver wrote:On November 06 2011 00:51 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 06 2011 00:48 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 00:46 K3Nyy wrote:On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:
[quote]
More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game.
edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already. No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about. Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread. White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem. Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret. Even KiwiKaKi did a really early third in both his games vs Morrow in NASL and eventually died to mutas in the second game and to broodlord ling infestor in the first game. I'm just learning to ignore Big J these days. He just parrots his own viewpoints in every single PvZ thread without actually looking at the outcome of the games in which the toss tried to expand before 10 minutes. Can toss expand before 10 mintues? Sure. Does it give him any advantage? 9/10 times it doesnt because he cant pressure the zerg and the zerg take 2-3 extra bases because of passive toss and either outmacro him or just harass the f!@# out of him with mutas because he's too spread out on three bases. Funny enough I think mutas are such a problem in PvZ because we dont have a 100 mineral AA like the turret which is effective in killing mutas. Cannons are pretty bad because of their low firing speed, which lets a flock of mutas quickly wipe it without taking more than 2 hits. Here is thread in which you will find people talking about fast 3rd bases and you will find a lot of examples of games in which a Protoss won a game through that against Zerg. The opening post even mentions explicitly how White-Ra is able to take some damage from a Zerg that goes Mutalisks without getting behind, through the big economical advantages this has over Protoss builds that take their thirds later. [D] PvZ quick 3rd on gateway techhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280293There are 3blue (Protoss) posters in there, who all agree that taking a fast third of relative low tech is quite strong. but you seem to be equating fast protoss third with defends and kills mutalisk based builds. this simply is not necessarily the case. Having 3 bases is nice but large muta balls are still highly problematic. This seems to ignore the core problems in engaging or defending mutalisks as a protoss player. Large muta balls are "highly problematic"? So you're saying allowing a Zerg player to get 3000 gas worth of units isn't going to be problematic? If you open up FFE --> 5-6 gate robo (robo first for obs), you should scout the spire with plenty of time to respond. Minigun recommends doing a 6 gate attack while taking a third and immediately teching to templar. You don't have to kill the Zerg, just kill his third. But most protosses don't care about this and try to kill the zerg, lose all their units, then say it's OP. I know to attack but like Welmu posted earlier im not necessarily referring to a go straight to 30 muta muta ball. but instead a harass with ground army and perhaps a switch to many mutas later on.
How are you going to switch to a large muta flock without being open to a HUGE timing window?
/shrug
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On November 06 2011 01:33 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 01:15 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 01:03 Piledriver wrote:On November 06 2011 00:51 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 06 2011 00:48 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 00:46 K3Nyy wrote:On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 22:58 Flyingdutchman wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. More often than not the reason a toss is only on two base while the zerg takes the rest of the map is because of the mutalisk keeping them in their initial two bases. That is the issue protoss players are talking about, not because they don't want to take a third or don't want to put pressure on a zerg preventing him from expanding everywhere. So it is not a whine about the unit but how the unit shapes the game. edit: Also, wouldn't magic boxing muta also work wonders vs the AoE of the tempest mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already. No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about. Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread. White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem. Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret. Even KiwiKaKi did a really early third in both his games vs Morrow in NASL and eventually died to mutas in the second game and to broodlord ling infestor in the first game. I'm just learning to ignore Big J these days. He just parrots his own viewpoints in every single PvZ thread without actually looking at the outcome of the games in which the toss tried to expand before 10 minutes. Can toss expand before 10 mintues? Sure. Does it give him any advantage? 9/10 times it doesnt because he cant pressure the zerg and the zerg take 2-3 extra bases because of passive toss and either outmacro him or just harass the f!@# out of him with mutas because he's too spread out on three bases. Funny enough I think mutas are such a problem in PvZ because we dont have a 100 mineral AA like the turret which is effective in killing mutas. Cannons are pretty bad because of their low firing speed, which lets a flock of mutas quickly wipe it without taking more than 2 hits. Here is thread in which you will find people talking about fast 3rd bases and you will find a lot of examples of games in which a Protoss won a game through that against Zerg. The opening post even mentions explicitly how White-Ra is able to take some damage from a Zerg that goes Mutalisks without getting behind, through the big economical advantages this has over Protoss builds that take their thirds later. [D] PvZ quick 3rd on gateway techhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280293There are 3blue (Protoss) posters in there, who all agree that taking a fast third of relative low tech is quite strong. but you seem to be equating fast protoss third with defends and kills mutalisk based builds. this simply is not necessarily the case. Having 3 bases is nice but large muta balls are still highly problematic. This seems to ignore the core problems in engaging or defending mutalisks as a protoss player.
No, but I'm arguing that the coreproblem of Protoss vs Mutalisks is, that they never have enough stuff. Stalkers are pretty good vs mutalisks cost for cost. Canons as well. Phoenix are just amazing mutakillers, if you get them out in good numbers. Archons, Templar and even sentries help when fighting mutalisks. So imo the corefocus of a Protoss that wants to beat Mutalisks has to be, to get these things in good amounts. Just having a certain tech is not enough is starcraft. You need enough of that and therefore you need a good enough economy to afford them.
In current Protoss styles, I don't see that. Go in any random PvZ need help thread and everyone (even a lot of masters players) will always tell those people to "punish the zerg for eco". But that always means that if you can't straight up kill a base and everything that base has produced so far (usually around 20 drones), you are simply far behind in economy and then I don't care anymore what happens in that game, because it has nothing to do with balance.
I'm really NOT denying that mutalisks are a good unit vs protoss (they are a good units vs terrans and zergs as well). I'm saying that at the time mutalisks are being built, the game has already been decided and mutalisks are just one of the best units in the game, when it comes to finishing a game after getting an advantage. (like blink stalkers, like marines, like tanks, like broodlords, like colossus)
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On November 06 2011 01:23 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 14:35 Welmu wrote:
I honestly think that it was necessary to get more muta counters in HOTS. They are used at the moment over than 1/3 games of PvZ and if Zerg manages to start producing mutas, before you scout Spire you are already hugely behind (if you are not going something like mass blink or 2 stargate phoenix blindly).
The most problematic thing isn't straight Mutas, but people starting to realize that you don't have to go muta straight away. They just do some roach/ling action first and then suddenly there pops out 10 mutas. Only good response imo against mutas atm is 2 stargate phoenix since blink stalkers damage output is reallyyy bad and even though you would manage to hit mutas with storm they could go back to regnerate their hp. Wise zergs wouldnt never straight engage many templars. Also one more problem with mutas is that if you want to manage to handle them you have to commit a lot money to anti-air + cannons and zergs can easily switch out to roach/hydra ling/infestor/ling whatever army and not to just keep massing mutas all game long (even tho its very strong too) You obviously know PvZ a lot better than I do, but don't a lot of Protoss players go Blink blindly anyways. i remember reading about the Chinese players like Hotmail or LoveTT dominating players using pure Blink Stalkers and really good micro. Also, if you don't scout the Zerg going Spire, you should end up being hugely behind. Isn't it the exact same way with builds like 2 Stargate? If the Zerg doesn't scout Double Stargate, it can absolutely destroy their economy, and similarly if the Protoss doesn't scout Spire then Mutalisks will ruin their economy. Also, as far as High Templar not being good, if you stop the Zerg from straight engaging your Templar, doesn't that mean that you've deflected the harassment and you can move out, expand, and attack the Zerg? Plus, if they fall back to regenerate health, you have time to get more energy, or if you really find yourself desperate, make a few archons. Supported with Cannons I feel that that would be a good way to hold off Mutalisk harassment.
Blink is NOT a topical add on to Stalkers... It's more of a question of WHEN do you get blink. It's like trying to play Terran bio without stim... The thing is... massed Protoss Air can be killed VERY cost efficiently via infestor tech and just about any Zerg anti-air. The big difference between Zerg air and Protoss Air is that there is almost NEVER a fear of Protoss air "counter attacking"... because Voidrays are slow and able to be killed by equal numbers of queens... and Phoenixes can't kill ground efficiently... I remember a game with naniwa where he made like 3 voids and a half dozen phoenixes... he killed a hatch, 35 drones, six queens, and was teching quickly to a stronger army... the moment he pushed you could see that the zerg STILL had a 20 drone advantage and simply washed Naniwa away... When Zerg scouts double stargate all they need to do is deal with voids and pump drones EVEN harder... because a Phoenix costs the same as a banshee... a banshee needs to have 6 kills to be considered "worth the cost".... A phoenix getting 6 drone kills is a pipedream.
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On November 04 2011 14:35 Welmu wrote:
I honestly think that it was necessary to get more muta counters in HOTS. They are used at the moment over than 1/3 games of PvZ and if Zerg manages to start producing mutas, before you scout Spire you are already hugely behind (if you are not going something like mass blink or 2 stargate phoenix blindly).
The most problematic thing isn't straight Mutas, but people starting to realize that you don't have to go muta straight away. They just do some roach/ling action first and then suddenly there pops out 10 mutas. Only good response imo against mutas atm is 2 stargate phoenix since blink stalkers damage output is reallyyy bad and even though you would manage to hit mutas with storm they could go back to regnerate their hp. Wise zergs wouldnt never straight engage many templars. Also one more problem with mutas is that if you want to manage to handle them you have to commit a lot money to anti-air + cannons and zergs can easily switch out to roach/hydra ling/infestor/ling whatever army and not to just keep massing mutas all game long (even tho its very strong too)
I must agree with Welmu on this. Since a month or so the zergs started to use a ton of mutas in pvz at our level. Like 1/3 goes 2 base muta, 1/3 goes fast three bases with a couple of roaches into muta, and the last 1/3 plays old school roach/hydra/infestor/corruptor. From what I have seen, koreans even started doing this about 2 months ago, but I haven't seen alot of korean pvz tbh.
There are a couple of problems that I have come up with:
1) Stalkers suck vs mutas. Once they have a sufficient large number mutas will defeat stalkers because of their splash and because they stack up (and therefore spread the damage). We dont have any cheap and very effective antiair like the basic marine.
2) Zerg can expand everywhere: throw down three spines and a spore and mine gas. This gives them a huge gasincome. I have gotten really good at scouting these expoes, but find myself unable to punish them. This huge gas income sets for a nice tier 3 lategame for zerg.
3)Spines: Zerg builds a ton of them. Against 10-15 spines you really need robotech (immos and colossi), but those suck vs mutaling. So spines have a really good synergy with mutas (also cost wise obv).
4) Basetrade: It is so strong The moment you move out you have lost your base. Zergs never really needs to engage your army. Cannons are worthless vs 15+ mutas. I used to place ht in my mineral lines. But tbh, zergs at my level dodge storms and I never killed a single muta with ht left in my base. Zerglings are pretty good at basetrading too.
5) reactive phoenix don't work. You need to throw down your stargates before the spire is halfway done! Otherwise zergs can easily outproduce you. They can also add in 1-2 infestors or 3-6 corruptors and they will be fine vs phoenix. I really wished there was some kinda upgrade to make phoenix splash to make them more viable.
6) Zerg can throw down a roach warren and 30 sec later they will have completely transitioned out of mutas (altough most players just go muta->moremuta->moremuta->hahamuta).
I have myself changed my style a lot to react vs this new 'mode': e.g. 2stargating blindly. I am still searching for replays of koreans in which the protoss playes safe and consistent and still defeats a muta player. I haven't found one yet
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On November 06 2011 01:10 Ace.Xile wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 01:06 DreamChaser wrote:On November 05 2011 21:58 Big J wrote:On November 05 2011 21:03 Thunderfist wrote:
ITs funny how everyone say that mutas are so easy to counter like Zerg would do nothing beside spamming mutas whole game non stop from beginning.
Muta + Zerglings = Fok yo Stalkorz, fok yo shit up fast, archon dies in a second especially with magic box after Zerg hits like 20 mutas or so.
it's funny how every protoss keeps saying, that mutalisks are imbalanced and then you look at any game stats of those players and it is: -) 70-80drones vs 50-60probes -) 3-4base vs 2base -) 6-8geysers vs 4geysers stop whining about units, when you can't play macro games. Watch the high level play. Mutalisks are not so common there, because they are not so efficient when players are evenly matched. -) Mutalisk give map control a toss taking a third difficult because if you split your army the zerg masses everything into one base and just wrecks your split army. -) I can guarantee that in the early-mid game a toss will keep up with Zerg in worker production until mutalisk pop after 10 mutalisk Zerg drones up hard takes a 3rd/4th and the toss cant move off of 2 bases for fear of a base race they wont win. No i will whine about units because im not a fucking pro or high level i dont spend my days browsing TL trying to be the next HuK, i dont ever plan on playing SC competitively i plan on playing a casual amount trying to be high diamond hell even masters if i could. Using the excuse "you can't play macro games watch high level replays", DONT WORK, i dont have the mechanics of the pro. The problem Toss has with Muta-ling is that once a zerg has at least 10 mutalisk it becomes a much easier game for the Zerg and suddenly the Toss is in a shit storm. Your post makes little to no sense, you argue that muta-ling is so strong on your level, despite the fact that yourself claim youre nowhere near high level or pro. Common sense would tell me that the problem is your game play style/and level of play, not the unit imbalance. That being said, Idra, MC, or 9/10 other pros, could beat 99.99999% of people without their "power" units. It's because they're better, not the units. I.E. get better don't blame the game.
the point of my post was to point out the flaws of Mutalisk in lower level games, i don't even know what the "right" style of play is ti beat mutalisk thats the problem.
In PvZ toss can
-FFE
-Nexus first
-3 gate sentry
The problem? All those openings delay any type of pressure the toss can apply. Sure i could do the double gateway +1 forge attack but that seems gimmicky to me i open FFE in Every single PvZ and i wont change unless something better comes around or someone throws concrete facts at me saying "Look this data shows that opening X is better than FFE"
Instead of ridiculing my post why dont you tell me the "correct" play style. Pros are pros, trying to compare my skills to a pro is completely irrelevant theres just to many factors to change. I might use pros as my model and try to play like them but i know in my life i never want to be that good.
Theres at least 20 threads of people going PvZ help mutas, and people have tried again and again to solve this problem. To be honest i have stopped looking everyone says you have to take a third and go archons/templars. Yet that has proven itself to me to work
Everyone always use's pros as the benchmark which is a skewed reasoning you can say well look at these tournament results see HuK beat zerg 3x. Like i said HuK practices at least 6 hours a day me? if i can get on for an hour a day i'm lucky.
You said not to blame the game, its impossible not to do you see all the new units Blizzard is implementing? the Tempest?? its obvious i'm not just a whiny protoss bitch.
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On November 06 2011 01:52 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 01:41 ZeromuS wrote:On November 06 2011 01:39 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 06 2011 01:33 ZeromuS wrote:On November 06 2011 01:15 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 01:03 Piledriver wrote:On November 06 2011 00:51 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 06 2011 00:48 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 00:46 K3Nyy wrote:On November 06 2011 00:17 Big J wrote:
[quote]
mutalisks aren't out before 13-14mins. Every other kind of mutaplay gets owned by a push. If a Protoss can't go 3base in that time, he is simply bad or he allinned badly before and therefore has lost already. No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about. Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread. White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem. Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret. Even KiwiKaKi did a really early third in both his games vs Morrow in NASL and eventually died to mutas in the second game and to broodlord ling infestor in the first game. I'm just learning to ignore Big J these days. He just parrots his own viewpoints in every single PvZ thread without actually looking at the outcome of the games in which the toss tried to expand before 10 minutes. Can toss expand before 10 mintues? Sure. Does it give him any advantage? 9/10 times it doesnt because he cant pressure the zerg and the zerg take 2-3 extra bases because of passive toss and either outmacro him or just harass the f!@# out of him with mutas because he's too spread out on three bases. Funny enough I think mutas are such a problem in PvZ because we dont have a 100 mineral AA like the turret which is effective in killing mutas. Cannons are pretty bad because of their low firing speed, which lets a flock of mutas quickly wipe it without taking more than 2 hits. Here is thread in which you will find people talking about fast 3rd bases and you will find a lot of examples of games in which a Protoss won a game through that against Zerg. The opening post even mentions explicitly how White-Ra is able to take some damage from a Zerg that goes Mutalisks without getting behind, through the big economical advantages this has over Protoss builds that take their thirds later. [D] PvZ quick 3rd on gateway techhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280293There are 3blue (Protoss) posters in there, who all agree that taking a fast third of relative low tech is quite strong. but you seem to be equating fast protoss third with defends and kills mutalisk based builds. this simply is not necessarily the case. Having 3 bases is nice but large muta balls are still highly problematic. This seems to ignore the core problems in engaging or defending mutalisks as a protoss player. Large muta balls are "highly problematic"? So you're saying allowing a Zerg player to get 3000 gas worth of units isn't going to be problematic? If you open up FFE --> 5-6 gate robo (robo first for obs), you should scout the spire with plenty of time to respond. Minigun recommends doing a 6 gate attack while taking a third and immediately teching to templar. You don't have to kill the Zerg, just kill his third. But most protosses don't care about this and try to kill the zerg, lose all their units, then say it's OP. I know to attack but like Welmu posted earlier im not necessarily referring to a go straight to 30 muta muta ball. but instead a harass with ground army and perhaps a switch to many mutas later on. How are you going to switch to a large muta flock without being open to a HUGE timing window? /shrug
You harass with your mutas and when the stalkers arrives you just run back and then come back with a couple of more mutas.
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On November 06 2011 02:06 BlitzerSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 01:52 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 06 2011 01:41 ZeromuS wrote:On November 06 2011 01:39 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 06 2011 01:33 ZeromuS wrote:On November 06 2011 01:15 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 01:03 Piledriver wrote:On November 06 2011 00:51 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 06 2011 00:48 Big J wrote:On November 06 2011 00:46 K3Nyy wrote:
[quote]
No. I seriously don't think you know what you're talking about.
Mutas are strong because they can deny the 3rd base for so long. If Protoss can get that 3rd base up at 11mins, there wouldn't be half as much as crying in this thread. White-Ra expands before 10mins all the time, HuK expands around 10mins of 5-6gateways... I don't see the problem. Yesterday White-Ra died TWICE against mass muta in ASUS ROG Stars Invitational against Ret. Even KiwiKaKi did a really early third in both his games vs Morrow in NASL and eventually died to mutas in the second game and to broodlord ling infestor in the first game. I'm just learning to ignore Big J these days. He just parrots his own viewpoints in every single PvZ thread without actually looking at the outcome of the games in which the toss tried to expand before 10 minutes. Can toss expand before 10 mintues? Sure. Does it give him any advantage? 9/10 times it doesnt because he cant pressure the zerg and the zerg take 2-3 extra bases because of passive toss and either outmacro him or just harass the f!@# out of him with mutas because he's too spread out on three bases. Funny enough I think mutas are such a problem in PvZ because we dont have a 100 mineral AA like the turret which is effective in killing mutas. Cannons are pretty bad because of their low firing speed, which lets a flock of mutas quickly wipe it without taking more than 2 hits. Here is thread in which you will find people talking about fast 3rd bases and you will find a lot of examples of games in which a Protoss won a game through that against Zerg. The opening post even mentions explicitly how White-Ra is able to take some damage from a Zerg that goes Mutalisks without getting behind, through the big economical advantages this has over Protoss builds that take their thirds later. [D] PvZ quick 3rd on gateway techhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280293There are 3blue (Protoss) posters in there, who all agree that taking a fast third of relative low tech is quite strong. but you seem to be equating fast protoss third with defends and kills mutalisk based builds. this simply is not necessarily the case. Having 3 bases is nice but large muta balls are still highly problematic. This seems to ignore the core problems in engaging or defending mutalisks as a protoss player. Large muta balls are "highly problematic"? So you're saying allowing a Zerg player to get 3000 gas worth of units isn't going to be problematic? If you open up FFE --> 5-6 gate robo (robo first for obs), you should scout the spire with plenty of time to respond. Minigun recommends doing a 6 gate attack while taking a third and immediately teching to templar. You don't have to kill the Zerg, just kill his third. But most protosses don't care about this and try to kill the zerg, lose all their units, then say it's OP. I know to attack but like Welmu posted earlier im not necessarily referring to a go straight to 30 muta muta ball. but instead a harass with ground army and perhaps a switch to many mutas later on. How are you going to switch to a large muta flock without being open to a HUGE timing window? /shrug You harass with your mutas and when the stalkers arrives you just run back and then come back with a couple of more mutas.
And when I come back with more mutas a good protoss has warped in more stalkers, or maybe archons.
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EPT
