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On September 21 2011 01:18 schaf wrote:
why is everybody complaining about this?
this whole *player changes team* thing is growing into the soap opera of SC2... -.-
My main concern is that for esports to be taken seriously by serious people, contracts have to be honored. Millennium and Stephano haven't, which is why most people are complaining about it.
I'm personally not upset that Stephano is staying with Millennium, but rather that Millennium has taken the standpoint that the contract that Stephano signed isn't worth the paper it's printed on. It's bad business practice and, if they get away with it, encourages other teams to employ similar tactics to try to void contracts. It has the potential to balloon to the point where contracts are meaningless in SC2, and if that occurs, then any dream of SC2 becoming more popular and more mainstream goes out the window.
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I think that some non-french people need some information about laws and contract in France.
The CDI is describer by french law as the common work contract in France. An employer has to preferentially choose this kind of contract. You can translate CDI by indefinite-time contract, it means that the contract does not mention any sort of time notion.
Now you are wondering how a CDI can end. Because there is no mention of time in the contract, one of the two sides of the contract (employer/employee) must show his willingness to end the contract. Then you have many cases and many formalities, I dont think that it is important to mention them here.
There is also the case of force majeure that can be called.
In col/stephano/millenium case, it is weird to read in the first news of Millenium a notion of time (they said that stephano will stay for the next 12 months in M) and a CDI. There is no point to talk about time when you want a CDI.
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I am completely confused. fact is: i will never make buiseness with Millenium :<
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On September 21 2011 01:27 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 01:21 Chargelot wrote:
It's naive to believe the guys who are scared of the public are scared because they're totally and completely in the right. Do I want information? Of course. But what I don't want is over-hyped nationalist or worthless (the two ideas aren't necessarily mutually exclusive) bullshit, which is all we have gotten from Mil. You don't dodge questions because they reveal you're the good guy.
But the Z's are cute, it really shows how mature you are. Did I say that I support Millennium and they're completely right? I don't know. I don't KNOW. So I'm not going to call them out saying "WAAAA. YOU RELEASED A BS STATEMENT THEREFORE YOU MUST BE WRONG!" I don't like their statements either pal! But you can't just condemn them over that! for me at least: innocent until proven guilty!
I'll see you in a week when we either don't have any information still, or Mil. has shown why they're scared of being transparent.
Til then, stay in school kiddo.
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What I found most offensive in this whole situation was Llewellys' little show on millenium.tv.
I saw none of the "professionalism and respectful practices in the growing scene of eSport" mentioned in the OP, just some guy ridiculing Complexity, the community and taking all of us for idiots.
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Well thats one way of making a statement, without actually stating any issues at hand.
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This kind of sounds like Mill had a CDI(?) contract with Stephano and believed him to be theirs. And Stephano decided to entertain coL offer, since he can end (if Piotr is correct) a CDI at will.
Then things went haywire. =)
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On September 21 2011 01:31 Chargelot wrote:
I'll see you in a week when we either don't have any information still, or Mil. has shown why they're scared of being transparent.
Til then, stay in school kiddo.
Sorry that I'm refraining from jumping to a drastic conclusion.
There's no need to insult me or condescend, and that's just really rude to be honest.
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On September 20 2011 22:34 aristarchus wrote:
You are claiming that the contract he signed has no weight (either legally or as a matter of respect). I believe you said at some point that there were "problems" with the contract. You gave no details.
You do know what kind of shitstorm would happen if M would release the contract that coL offered to Stephano?
That would be the first progamer contract ever made public. Without the team which wrote the contact agreeing to the release.
On September 21 2011 01:21 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 01:14 Gamegene wrote:On September 21 2011 01:05 Chargelot wrote:On September 21 2011 00:24 Gamegene wrote:On September 20 2011 23:57 jib117 wrote:
The fact that you are still saying absolutely nothing about what actually happened shows how in the wrong you are. Nope. We don't know anything, so they could be right for all we know. Which is why we want more information. Can't jump to conclusions yet~ Your statement borders on naivety. The guy hiding in the shadows is doing so for a reason. zzzz. If it's naive to want to hear accountable information from BOTH sides before condemning them then yes I am very naive! It's naive to believe the guys who are scared of the public are scared because they're totally and completely in the right. Do I want information? Of course. But what I don't want is over-hyped nationalist or worthless (the two ideas aren't necessarily mutually exclusive) bullshit, which is all we have gotten from Mil. You don't dodge questions because they reveal you're the good guy. But the Z's are cute, it really shows how mature you are.
Well some people mentioned cases where coL was looking shady as well (vVvTitan).
Just a short mindgame:
coL said they talked to Stephano for 18 days prior to the signing. It could be very well possible that they said "Ok, enough talk. This is our last offer, if you dont sign this night we will retract everything and look for someone else. You know, Naniwa i.e. is leaving dignitas. He might be happy with our offer".
Nothing in coLs statement would contradict my story. But also nothing in it supports it. We cannot know if that or something similiar is the case.
I personally would very much like it to go before a court. Just to know if the whole programer contracting stuff is legal / fair. Make contracts public. Let them be checked by lawyers (who dont only check from one point of view). (i.e. contracter vs employee contracts)
But overall I like the Milennium approach more. Dont spread this legal kindgarten stuff to the public. Either you're right; then sue them. Maybe approach the other team & the player and give them time to respond (at least 24hours) before releasing so many statements (same concerns the M guy who talked about it on stream).
Also overall - it's Stephanos fault. He signed the contract prematurely. And he then broke it. If anyone should be sued it's him. Not M. (He then could sue them for giving bad legal advice^^)
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On September 21 2011 01:25 Ylrahc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 01:13 AzurewinD wrote:On September 21 2011 01:04 SwEEt[TearS] wrote:quite the blanket statement you made there. In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation. good one, especially when Stephano and the team manager were both streaming on the day the entire thing unwrapped. "can't read my emails, im streaming" yeah right  Exactly. That had me baffled more than anything else about Millenium's actions. Damn, what baffled me more was the fact that coL didn't even contact M (no, they didn't, reread statements carefully, they contacted Stephano only) before signing Stephano even if Stephano was playing with M and had an agreement about a future contract with them. I guess taking some time to cool his head before answering coL and / or making a (second) flaming statement was a really bad idea, huh ! (yeah, I wasn't a big fan of M first statement either) As a matter of fact, the stream was about an important cup and it was impossible to delay it. The SC2 manager said on this stream he didn't have the time to answer to coL yet (work + stream) and that it'll have to wait to the day after (tuesday = today).
they negotiated for like 18 days. why would coL contact [M]? at the time no contract was binding Stephano to [M], so some random promise to keep playing with the team doesn't hold. you don't contact a team about a non-existing contract, the only reason they'd ever contact the team would be to buy out the contract or ask for a transfer or whatever. so making him sign at 5am means absolutely nothing, hey if coL was still making offers at that time, [M] management should've still been around to counter-offer or Stephano should've woken them up to ask for a counter-offer or fucking wait until management got up to hear from them? You do realize that the decision was up to Stephano ultimately since there was absolutely nothing keeping him from staying in [M]? if there was coL would've contacted [M] about buying him out.
I understand the entire "yeah we had an event planned". How about making a release before? or after? well it eventually came and said absolutely nothing so it's not like we missed out.
generally when you're not guilty you'll go out of your way to prove it. so many things Lwl has said makes so little sense I'm just starting to wonder if [M] ever had a course in PR.
source: http://www.complexitygaming.com/news/3129/
1) We first contacted Stephano on September 1st, 2011. We stated our interest in retaining his services and he stated that he was in no way contracted to Millenium and was interested in joining compLexity.
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On September 21 2011 01:27 daviday wrote:
The situation is pretty simple.
Lwl said that everything was done overnight. Basicly there was talk between stephano and complexity for quite some time and counteroffers by millenium.
This is proven by statement of Jason from Complexity quoting stephano " i changed my mind ".
So basicly , making an offer at 5PM and making him sign right away is just nor really professional from Complexity. As the Last offer was made overnight , its clear that millenium had no idea about it. Why ? ( When you try to recrut a player from ANOTHER team and ANOTHER country and dont want to have this kind of thing hapen you just dont make them sign overnight and annouce it right away that just common sens... )
Its simple and i Dont understand how people can really think that IF millenium was really knowing the last offer they would have WAITED for complexity to annouce stephano to make a counter offer ? For what ? Free drama ? That just plain dumb. That prove that they didnt knew shit about that last offer.
Second point :
Why would stephano leave a team such as Millenium with tons of great players , for One like Complexity with only low-pro... only for money ? Probably... Or to be the star of a team where he have 10 times the level of his teamate ? I dont think that ideal for complexity.
Last thing , as for complexity having more money that millenium or making stephano travel alot... we'll see about that when ATLEAST one of their player come to play a tourney in europe..
Also stephano explicitly said that he DOES NOT WANT to go to korea on long term. ( unlike ToD )
.. i cant see stephano loosing to mutch here..
He will be going back so his team , with former team mate , with people whom he trust and when his 1 year contract will be over.. he will have NO PROBLEM finding another team if he wants too. Cause no team would pass on stephano he is to good , even after this drama. But anyway in 1 year everyone will have forget about that.
Last but not least , great move from millenium witch are sure to keep him 1 whole years .GG
I would actually say Complexity is pretty comparable to Millenium player-wise once you take Stephano out of the equation.
As for the actual dealings. Complexity claims to have been in talks with Stephano and in the process of making offers for 18 days, the actual signing was done late and night but that honestly doesn't mean much if you consider the 18 days prior to consider, additionally, most gamers have little issue with being up at odd hours, not sure if Stephano is one such player but the whole "They strong armed him in the middle of the night" thing is really fucking stupid.
Your massive hyperbole in general makes it really hard to take you seriously but at this point I'm not sure who is trolling and who is simply an imbecile.
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Unless you can specify what "disorienting tactics" Complexity used to "influence Stephano into making a bad decision" I think Complexity deserves an apology.
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My Guess is they met with stephano recently and made him physically sigh the contract. and now they're interested in having a discussion to resolve it.
My only quaffle is that Now stephano doesn't have his own stream anymore
They made him delete his JTV stream and now uses Dailymotion "Millenium TV" stream..
shady as fuck
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What's not so sad about this, is that when you contrast this with what HuK did, it just makes Liquid look that much better. TL gave him the opportunity to make it big, nurtured him and watched him grow into one of the best protoss players in the world. When a life-changing financial offer came his way to take him to the next step in his career, Liquid said "hey man, go for it, no hard feelings, you deserve it".
Just to brighten the mood 
<3 TL
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Some organizations don't want to take their confidential legal issues to the battleground of the Internet. Stop blaming Millenium for being coy on the matter when in fact it is probably better that this thing is sorted out by the two teams and their mutual position finalized before a clear statement is released. Not everyone is impressed by EG or iNcontroL style "announcements" which later turn out to be half truths swallowed by bullshit and hype.
I don't think SC2 esports needs more drama about unprofessionalism, so I think we should congratulate Millenium for keeping the gossip to the trash mags and the other parts of the internet. I'm sure a real statement will be forthcoming once everything or initial negotiations have been resolved.
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On September 21 2011 01:37 Gooey wrote:What's not so sad about this, is that when you contrast this with what HuK did, it just makes Liquid look that much better. TL gave him the opportunity to make it big, nurtured him and watched him grow into one of the best protoss players in the world. When a life-changing financial offer came his way to take him to the next step in his career, Liquid said "hey man, go for it, no hard feelings, you deserve it". Just to brighten the mood <3 TL
I'm pretty sure TL did everything they could to try and keep HuK, they just don't compare financially to EG. I doubt it was like "yeah you should go HuK!"
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To me it feels like with this story Millenium has gotten a really bad reputation more than they already had (Adelscott in EG master cup) and now with this "statement" they are trying to regain good reputation. This is JUST my opinion.
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On September 21 2011 01:38 tyCe wrote:
Some organizations don't want to take their confidential legal issues to the battleground of the Internet. Stop blaming Millenium for being coy on the matter when in fact it is probably better that this thing is sorted out by the two teams and their mutual position finalized before a clear statement is released. Not everyone is impressed by EG or iNcontroL style "announcements" which later turn out to be half truths swallowed by bullshit and hype.
I don't think SC2 esports needs more drama about unprofessionalism, so I think we should congratulate Millenium for keeping the gossip to the trash mags and the other parts of the internet. I'm sure a real statement will be forthcoming once everything or initial negotiations have been resolved.
They weren't coy at all when they went on stream yesterday and dragged Col's name through the mud.
I don't know why you even brought EG into this discussion either. Millenium deserves no congratulations for anything they have done wtf.
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On September 21 2011 01:38 tyCe wrote:
Some organizations don't want to take their confidential legal issues to the battleground of the Internet. Stop blaming Millenium for being coy on the matter when in fact it is probably better that this thing is sorted out by the two teams and their mutual position finalized before a clear statement is released. Not everyone is impressed by EG or iNcontroL style "announcements" which later turn out to be half truths swallowed by bullshit and hype.
I don't think SC2 esports needs more drama about unprofessionalism, so I think we should congratulate Millenium for keeping the gossip to the trash mags and the other parts of the internet. I'm sure a real statement will be forthcoming once everything or initial negotiations have been resolved.
You can be transparent and still be classy, which is more or less what Complexity has been doing so far. I don't you can really commend Millenium for not being transparent to avoid drama considering the mud slinging that went on yesterday from their end accusing Complexity of using "disorienting techniques" to sign Stephano. That's not keeping it professional, that's not keeping confidential issues off the internet, that's slinging mud and then not following up with an explanation on what the fuck they mean.
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On September 21 2011 01:38 tyCe wrote:
Some organizations don't want to take their confidential legal issues to the battleground of the Internet. Stop blaming Millenium for being coy on the matter when in fact it is probably better that this thing is sorted out by the two teams and their mutual position finalized before a clear statement is released. Not everyone is impressed by EG or iNcontroL style "announcements" which later turn out to be half truths swallowed by bullshit and hype.
I don't think SC2 esports needs more drama about unprofessionalism, so I think we should congratulate Millenium for keeping the gossip to the trash mags and the other parts of the internet. I'm sure a real statement will be forthcoming once everything or initial negotiations have been resolved.
I agree, I would love if it was kept professional and the gossip was kept off of the internet by both parties..
But that's the point... they brought the battleground to the stream. They slandered coL and mocked the situation live to their viewers.
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EPT
