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Russian Federation473 Posts
On September 16 2011 16:46 neoghaleon55 wrote:
I really don't understand why they're going with this change live without even testing it in PTR...
What's the point of the PTR then?!
It seems to me like they were going to do this 9-->7 range change anyway, but posted a more severe nerf on PTR to start an angry mob, which they can semi-appease now with the original intended change.
Stupid stupid stupid blizzard.
Frustrating fans every day.
i have the same feeling. mr. kim trolled us like a boss.
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This is more of a question than qq, but I don't really understand how this will promote better infestor positioning vs colossus. With the reduced range, no matter how well we position them, they'd get sniped wouldn't they? Now here's the qq: Why oh why couldn't they settle on just 8 range 
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I'm not sure whats worse, no massive or a measly 7 range...
Any idea when 1.4 will come live? Gotta ladder a lot before that day
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I feel like rather than nerfing the infestor to hell they need to buff the HT. Right now the infestor is actually making ZvT balanced, I am afraid that 7 range will severely hurt infestors against a mech terran. NP was never a problem in ZvP as I've said and will always say, it's fungal and infested terrans.
They should just increase feedback range of HT because ghosts are a problem in PvT as well and they have an AOE that can effect all HT where HT can only effect one unit at a time. This would help PvT as well as PvZ with infestors.
I think it's silly that blizzards thinking is "unit X is too powerful, we should weaken X" but I think instead they should be buffing other units to compensate because it's just not fun when everything is nerfed to hell. I mean, they seriously nerfed protoss with KA and warp gate research time, maybe they should just bring those things back.
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Although I believe this is a better change, I wish they gave players some time to test the change out. I don't expect this to break the Infestor, but if it does, player will have to wait for some time for Blizzard to believe Infestor must be changed again and roll out another update.
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this seems completely retarded when stalkers have 6 range and colossi now outrange them. this still makes neural parasite fuckin terrible, just in a different way. you have to have downs or have bad obs control or something to not be able to split your units enough so that you can't get a few stalkers in range of at least one of the infestors when they'll only be 1 range out of reach (even if fungal is 9 range, colossi won't be in front of stalkers, so the infestors will have to move up), and if you can unleash one of the NPed colossi it's a slippery slope from there.
GG non-PTR patch changes to pander to bads. it's funny because people will still cry since what people mainly cry about is fungal stunning and locking people out of any ability to respond. i don't understand what's so hard, as a zerg player, about making it slow to 0% speed for a second before letting it recover the speed as it wears off fungal or something of that nature, and since it's only slowed you can still use all your abilities and make a response of some degree. chain fungalling is what makes infestors stupid, not NP
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On September 16 2011 16:57 emc wrote:
I feel like rather than nerfing the infestor to hell they need to buff the HT. Right now the infestor is actually making ZvT balanced, I am afraid that 7 range will severely hurt infestors against a mech terran. NP was never a problem in ZvP as I've said and will always say, it's fungal and infested terrans.
They should just increase feedback range of HT because ghosts are a problem in PvT as well and they have an AOE that can effect all HT where HT can only effect one unit at a time. This would help PvT as well as PvZ with infestors.
I think it's silly that blizzards thinking is "unit X is too powerful, we should weaken X" but I think instead they should be buffing other units to compensate because it's just not fun when everything is nerfed to hell. I mean, they seriously nerfed protoss with KA and warp gate research time, maybe they should just bring those things back.
No, Blizzard is right in their thinking. It's better to change one unit to achieve a balance shift or change than to change several units as the latter could lead to more unforeseen consequences than the former. Furthermore, having to change more units would mean Blizzard would have to put more time in thinking and testing each changes out than just focusing on one.
One of Blizzard's employee that's responsible for World of Warcraft's class balance explained this well:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3435893/Dev_Watercooler_-_Rate_of_Change-9_8_2011#blog
Players would typically rather we buff everyone but their spec rather than nerf their spec, even if the outcome is the same...
Also keep in mind that when we make class adjustments via hotfix, we want to make the simplest fix possible that addresses the problem so we minimize the risk of us breaking something else and minimize how much testing we need to do before we can deploy the change. This is the main reason we are more likely to nerf via hotfix than to buff everyone else, because it’s just fewer changes. (Remember, that if we buffed everyone up to the DPS of the outlier, that we might very well have to buff creatures as well to keep you from trivializing content, which adds a lot more overhead to the change.)
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On September 16 2011 16:46 SirAnnihilate wrote:
This change is much better than the removal of massive neural. Thor all-in's would become too powerful and Protoss death balls would be... well, death balls again.
This should promote better unit positioning and control, it will of course make Collosus much more powerful in the PvZ matchup, but perhaps not uncontrollably so. This will make Infestor micro much more important in big engagements.
Not the perfect Infestor change by far, but Blizzard obviously feels the unit needs reworking and this is just one of many ways to do it. Sadly, making the change live before the PTR is unwise and my post may be invalidated once we see the change in action - this post is nothing but preliminary thoughts and theory-crafting because Blizzard has decided to make it impossible to evaluate anything else.
I had someone thor all in me earlier today. I dealt with it with about 80 burrowed lings and roaches and hydralisks, with 4 infestors to pick off the SCVs and hellions. No neural. destroyed all but 4 thors. spammed lings and won.
thors are a problem?
I've also had a game on the same map vs another terran (both of these are on ladder), where he thor rushed and used medivacs to drop them on my expos and main, and basically play whack a mole. he lost too.
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This infestor problem is talked way too much. Waaaaaay to much.
And people are making such a fuss about NP but at high level pros don't even depend on it at all.
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United Arab Emirates4 Posts
This is another disappointing patch, NP is going to work decently against chargelot archon. NP collosus get killed by other collosus target fire, NP thors get killd by other thor target fire/tank.
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On September 16 2011 17:06 BirdKiller wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 16:57 emc wrote:
I feel like rather than nerfing the infestor to hell they need to buff the HT. Right now the infestor is actually making ZvT balanced, I am afraid that 7 range will severely hurt infestors against a mech terran. NP was never a problem in ZvP as I've said and will always say, it's fungal and infested terrans.
They should just increase feedback range of HT because ghosts are a problem in PvT as well and they have an AOE that can effect all HT where HT can only effect one unit at a time. This would help PvT as well as PvZ with infestors.
I think it's silly that blizzards thinking is "unit X is too powerful, we should weaken X" but I think instead they should be buffing other units to compensate because it's just not fun when everything is nerfed to hell. I mean, they seriously nerfed protoss with KA and warp gate research time, maybe they should just bring those things back. No, Blizzard is right in their thinking. It's better to change one unit to achieve a balance shift or change than to change several units as the latter could lead to more unforeseen consequences than the former. Furthermore, having to change more units would mean Blizzard would have to put more time in thinking and testing each changes out than just focusing on one. One of Blizzard's employee that's responsible for World of Warcraft's class balance explained this well: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3435893/Dev_Watercooler_-_Rate_of_Change-9_8_2011#blogShow nested quote +Players would typically rather we buff everyone but their spec rather than nerf their spec, even if the outcome is the same...
Also keep in mind that when we make class adjustments via hotfix, we want to make the simplest fix possible that addresses the problem so we minimize the risk of us breaking something else and minimize how much testing we need to do before we can deploy the change. This is the main reason we are more likely to nerf via hotfix than to buff everyone else, because it’s just fewer changes. (Remember, that if we buffed everyone up to the DPS of the outlier, that we might very well have to buff creatures as well to keep you from trivializing content, which adds a lot more overhead to the change.)
yeah.. but I'm not suggesting they change 4 different things, I think they should keep the infestor the same and just buff the HT, that's all I'm saying. I was merely suggesting that the reason why protoss isn't doing so well is because of the KA nerf and the warp gate nerf have combined into a big protoss slump.
I don't think they should necessarily bring those things back, I think it would be better to leave the infestor alone because it's so essential in ZvT in it's current state that I think changing Fungal and changing NP in one patch is exactly what you said blizzard doesn't do. And it's not just that, they are changing a TON of things including rax build time, an immortal buff... How can you say all of those things are simple changes? Those are all major changes that probably will have unforeseen consequences. What if it turns out 6 pool is now too strong against terran? is that 5 extra seconds really going to matter? You said it yourself mate, unforeseen consequences.
And there is a lot more being changed than balance changes, there are bug fixes that will be changing the game as well. Some bug fixes include NP'd units now retain their upgrades, banelings being dropped has changed and even zealots with charge has changed. It's like you didn't even read the patch notes, look at them again and see for yourself how much is changing and whether you still believe in blizzards philosophy.
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Yeah I also like the thought of buffing other aspects than nerfing a unit unless it is fundamentally broken. I guess some people could argue that point, but buffing seems to give more options instead of limiting by nerfing certain aspects of a unit.
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I as a Zerg player actually like this change. Let's be honest, 9 range was very powerful with a decent force of roaches and lings pushing, even considering the low health of the infestor it wasn't that hard to NP a bunch of Collosi at least for a couple of valuable seconds, it almost seemed too simple to abuse the spell under the right circumstances.
The new change makes it a very tactical and situational ability, where you actually need to position your infestors perfectly to hit Collosi, which I think it's fair considering the power of NPing 3-4 units.
I'm glad to see it still works with Archons, they're a pain to deal with sometimes.
Seems a little arbitrary to go all the way to 7, but maybe it's not that bad, I wish people start experimenting with it instead of complaining, the infestor has great abilities to complement NP, not all of them need to be viable in every situation, it is a very powerful unit and I'm not against making it require more precise control in order to use it 100%.
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On September 16 2011 16:57 emc wrote:
They should just increase feedback range of HT because ghosts are a problem in PvT as well and they have an AOE that can effect all HT where HT can only effect one unit at a time. This would help PvT as well as PvZ with infestors..
This has to be the best post I've ever read anywhere. You make so much sense, good sir!
If infestor still has 9 range but HT has larger range, the importance of collosus micro is preserved. With 7 micro, not so much. This will also mean roach infestor is still viable, which is far less boring than roach (hydra) corruptor. Also HT micro becomes even more important, as it won't be impossible to FB festors behind 1a army. Then another element will come into play with infestors, draining energy such that you almost die but not quite when they feedback during NP, which is not really important atm.
And terrans have been rickrolling protoss (60% win in KR gm) and in korean and NA stats (look last 4 months tourney aggregates). So maybe HT should get a 1 range buff and infestors should be left at 9 range.. you can't overdo the HT buff though because pro-level TvP might break. But then again unequal range may increase the skill needed by terrans, zooming in and out and EMP->snipe observer in any tense army to army situation, as you may need cloak to emp b4 feedback if HT get a range buff.
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On September 16 2011 17:37 VictuM wrote:
This is another disappointing patch, NP is going to work decently against chargelot archon. NP collosus get killed by other collosus target fire, NP thors get killd by other thor target fire/tank.
This is another good post. Collosus play is by far the most boring but this patch increases its E(winrate) w.r.t. the archon/zealot counterpart.
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The problem is that infestor was only other unit except corruptor that you could use to fight colossus. Now it wont work against half decent player who don't mess up positioning horribly.
TL;DR: P makes colossus -> Z makes corruptors. end.
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On September 16 2011 17:53 Shousan wrote:
I as a Zerg player actually like this change. Let's be honest, 9 range was very powerful with a decent force of roaches and lings pushing, even considering the low health of the infestor it wasn't that hard to NP a bunch of Collosi at least for a couple of valuable seconds, it almost seemed too simple to abuse the spell under the right circumstances.
I always felt that even with range 9, infestors need to be microed to make an impact with NP. When P keeps his Collosi behind his Stalkers (as it should be) and you dont micro your Infestors around your roach army they won't get in range and bumble around stupidly until enough roaches die, the Infestor takes the spot in the front line, casts his NP and gets killed immediately by Stalker/Collosi fire.
Reducing the range to 7 will make an effective use of NP harder but it doesnt break the ability. If you position your Infestors properly it will still have devastating effects but it will be way easier for P to kill Infestors that NP.
I think the nerf is somewhat ok (as Zerg I'm not too excited ofc  ), reducing its effectiveness but keeping its potential (compared to what the no-massive-unit nerf wouldve done)
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Even if I do have major problems against NP as protoss, I do generally believe that it should have 9 range, however it should not be able to be used on motherships. With some good HT micro&position even at 9 range those infestors can be sniped relatively fast without NP dealing to much damage to the protoss army.
Also having 7 range the risk vs. the reward might be too risk dominated, putting your infestor in a frontal offensive position using most of it's energy to possibly be fast sniped by long ranged units and blink stalkers.
But it is still interesting and good that blizzard is trying out different approaches on how to balance the unit, and that they dare to go back on PTR changes.
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Might as well remove Infestors. Like you can ever NP any massive units at 7 range safely without getting sniped easily.
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If your parents don't want to buy you a cat, ask a tiger first, and you will get the cat...
Blizzard did the same. The NP nerf would have been so huge, that they can now easily nerf the range without beeing flamed to hard...
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EPT
