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Northern Ireland23696 Posts
There will be a good load done to the game with an expansion coming out, I'm sure Blizz have some tricks up their sleeves
As a Toss player I'm totally happy with this change. It'll be hard to NP my Collosus, but equally if I'm careless it's still doable. Coupled with the immortal range upgrade + overdue buff to the fragile warp prism I feel this will be a really interesting patch to play on when it goes live Do zergs players genuinely believe that the Infestor was fine as it was? Saying that we should learn to 'micro' to beat a unit that negates ALL micro when its spell hits. Yes you can position better before a battle, but once it hits and fungals land those considerations go out the window. NP with 9 range was just the icing on that particularly horrific cake
Sensible balance talk is fine, hell I was totally happy to wait for the metagame to show us the way to beat infestors as they are currently. However a ridiculous amount of people come on here, complain that Protoss is the A-move army every time they lose, while having a unit that in its current state Protoss REALLY struggled with. That is meant to be a support caster. Oh and can harass. Now it's a STRONG unit but not one that excels vs almost every late game Toss composition. What's wrong with that?
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well, this will only make NP viable against mass thors, if there is siege tank support at all then NP will be a big waste.
I think they should've kept NP the same as it is now and simply nerfed fungal and infested terrans. It's those two abilities that are really hurting ZvP. There isn't much protoss can do against mass infested terrans and mass zerglings, which is why they should either nerf the IT or increase the energy cost. Fungal should also be changed, but they should keep the 36(46) damage and simply remove the ensnare and put in a slow down effect instead.
Like I said, NP isn't a big problem in ZvP, it's mostly used in ZvT against thors and NP can be used in ZvP but often isn't needed because ling/infestor/corrupter works just fine and corrupters can't attack thors in ZvT.
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Is the NP change to retain the enemy upgrades still in effect as well?
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On September 16 2011 13:43 BOOSE.867 wrote:
Is the NP change to retain the enemy upgrades still in effect as well?
yes of course. That was a bug and it will be fixed with 1.4
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Honestly, this change is worst than removing NP on Massive units... why? Simple, think with me...
Colossus 9 range, tank 12 range, void stalkers marines immortals thors 6 range, how the fuck a zerg will be able to NP something? Protosses wont even bother to blink near the infestors since they will be close enough already... This change would make sense only if infestors had 200 HP so survive against 400000 shots...
And btw, Its obvious that zerg is the worst race in the game, look the win rate of the players... Look the top 200 gm korea ladder, there is 19 zergs... al of them with poor win rate, when there is protoss and terrans with 60~85% win rate, only blind people cant see that there is something REALLY WRONG here...
WHY THEY DIDNT BUFF Corruptors yet? or at least remove the necessity of the range upgrade for hydras...
They should pay attention on how broken ghost's are (TVP mostly), PF (should never exist), and how stupid dt's are, since even them can morph into archon... Can u guys explain me why i need to be behind against a fail dt rush since i have to spend at least 200 gas on overseers to protect myself, and then when u see, there is 2~3 archons comming to destroy u? There is a bunch of things that dont make sense... Forget the fucking infestors, they already got nerfed, my question is, where are u guys going to buff? cause i cant believe Blizzard wont buff zerg on something or nerf terran/protoss... This must be a joke, im not even joking.
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On September 16 2011 13:54 dshsdhk wrote:
And btw, Its obvious that zerg is the worst race in the game, look the win rate of the players... Look the top 200 gm korea ladder, there is 19 zergs... al of them with poor win rate, when there is protoss and terrans with 60~85% win rate, only blind people cant see that there is something REALLY WRONG here...
It's true that protoss is clearly doing better than zerg on ladder. But, it's also clear that in tournament protoss has recently been the worse race...
Anyway, I don't think it really makes sense to talk about balance and the NP nerf at the same time, and the reason is quite simple:
This is a huge patch, with lots of changes, nobody can tell what the balance will be after that.
Protoss is getting 4 units buffed, terran is getting 2 huge nerf, fungal is getting nerf, ultra are getting buff. Is the game going to be unbalanced without the NP change ?
Nobody can tell.
Protoss getting 4 buff, other races getting nerfed. I don't think it's necessary to nerf NP in a hurry.
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Yeah this is lame.. blizz mentality is what.. "We're being merciful now that we aren't doing the dumbest thing ever with NP, and because of that, we don't even need to test it out"
This is NOT the kind of patching that I know and appreciate Blizzard for. They usually have gentle nudges. Somebody came at this patch with an axe instead of a scalpel.
8 Would have been significantly better.. this doesn't just help colossi to outrange, but also for feedbacks to dominate even more, and for forcefield to become significantly better, and for my infestors to get psi-stormed whenever they do neural still. And Immortals are getting a range buff so they're even better against the roach alternative now, hahaha.
Oh and it's worthless vs tank play now, and Thors actually remain pretty beefy (despite everyone saying "this will still get thors" because nobody goes pure thor - they go mech and the outranging of tanks vs this now really makes it a joke of a would-be solution. And now Terran picks up a huge boost in even more viable playstyles, whoopee.
This looks like a mess of non-consideration and non-testing. You have a PTR and then you basically don't use it. Thumbs down Blizzard!
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Don't really understand this nerf. Lots of non zergs are acting as if Blizzard did Zergs a favor by nerfing NP range rather than making massive units uncontrollable. It is essentially the same nerf except now trying to NP other units besides the Collossus and Thor has now become just as difficult. Controlling siege tanks, immortals, and void rays is going to require Zergs to have near perfect Unit control.
I still see no reason to research neural parasite after this change. This whole patch in general has turned me off to Infestors and how poorly Blizzard has tried to deal with it. Protoss players with their 2-3 colossus push around the 13-14 minute mark is going to be terribly difficult to deal with again. How about showing some love to the corruptors? Build time buff or a small range increase maybe? I just don't see how I'm supposed to hit a quick hive without sacrificing Econ or upgrades before Protoss is able to amass their deathball...
I'm going to have to look up some Korean ZvP games to see how they deal with Protoss players without the use of infestors
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On September 16 2011 11:22 EliteReplay wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 11:21 coL.CatZ wrote:
this change is just as bad unfortunately. Its like saying, since most people can't micro or target fire, we'll make it easy for them and ridiculously easy for actual good players ok, what will be a good change for you? Can please elaborate something balanced?
Could remove the Energy upgrade for infestors, Fungal's already getting nerfed as well. Problem with infestors is everyone of their spells is really good, so it makes them an incredibly versatile unit, good at every point in the game, Infested Terrans could use a 1-2 damage nerf or an increase of energy cost to 35 or 40, NP doesn't need to be changed, people just need to learn how to deal with it, feedback, ghosts, phoenixes, blink forwards tank focus fire, send a few marines or a marauder forward vs fungal, etc. Truth is as there are many people who complain about the infestors, there are plenty of players who already have great responses and deal with them incredibly effective. with one, some or all of these techniques and more
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I honestly think Range is the Key, I'm glad I'm posting behind CatZ,
you don't need to eliminate NP, or fungal or whatever, just make it so I can counter it.
If I don't feedback or blink on them, its my problem....but at range 9, it's not my fault I didn't blink or feedback because I physically couldn't do it in time.
Range 7 keeps all the potential strength, but now I can stop them If i'm good. That's all we needed.
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On September 16 2011 12:37 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 11:21 coL.CatZ wrote:
this change is just as bad unfortunately. Its like saying, since most people can't micro or target fire, we'll make it easy for them and ridiculously easy for actual good players Blizzard has stated in the past that they do take into account non-professional players when balancing the game, but aren't you in favor of this policy? If not, what do you think about the players in Korea who smile sardonically at the difficulties a North American Grandmasters Zerg player has? Infestor heavy play is not in vogue in Korea. Perhaps Korean Protoss players are so skilled, they can perfectly target down the Infestor who is siphoning the Colossus, making the prospective neural parasite change moot. In Korea, Neural Parasite in Starcraft 2 could be the equivalent of Medic's Restore in Starcraft Broodwar. If this is the case, are you in favor of a spell being imbalanced when players can't exercise enough control, and unusable when they can? Or maybe you're just not skilled enough to comment on the balance of Starcraft 2, and thus don't understand why the change was necessary. Whenever North American players deride the balance opinions of less skilled players, I'm compelled to wonder how they ignore the cognitive dissonance which must occur when they consider where they rank on the Great Cross-Realm Starcraft 2 Ladder which exists only in our hopeful minds. I'm not saying you shouldn't discuss balance unless you're one of the top players in the world, or that you're one of the people I'm describing. In fact, I greatly enjoyed reading the quoted post by you, even thought it was rather short. But I do think you should be careful when you imply that Neural Parasite is perfectly balanced if Protoss players would simply learn how to control their units. Korean Zergs control their units more precisely and hit their queen injects more regularly than you. Maybe Zerg against Protoss would be a simple matchup for Zerg if you could simply do the same?
you argue that blizzard is balancing the game for lower skilled players, and then say that I can't talk about it cause im not as good as koreans mechanically, you're an incredibly funny person. I am known for strategy and I have more room to talk than most people who post on this thread when it comes to balance, especially when it comes to infestors, I've used infestors since the beta heavily and when they buffed Fungal Growth I told David Kim personally that it was a stupid change, that infestors were already good and people just don't use them because they're dumb. Fungal Growth buff was dumb, now infestors are getting increasingly popular because they're incredibly cost efficient units, just like sentrys, high templar, colossi, tanks, ghosts etc. there are plenty of ways to deal with heavy infestor play from both races, I say this because even though you may not consider me a top tier player, I play with a lot of people I consider to be top tier players on a regular basis and hold my own against anyone for the most part, and they all have good responses to any strategy. You can't balance a game for the lowest tier of players and expect for the game to be actually balanced at the top, reality is basic mechanics for zerg are a lot more complicated than they are for protoss, things of this nature will hurt the game if they try to balance from the bottom up, because if you want to improve zerg's win ratio at lower levels it'll make it too strong at the top for example. Reality here is you shouldn't be talking as if you knew anything or without any sort of argument other than 'koreans are better than you so shut up'... you are the reason most 'pro players' won't post on threads like this, not only is it not appreciated, there's always idiots like yourself trying to argue without any base, im done here, don't bother replying.
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Some times I wish teamliquid displays your 1v1 league next to your name.. there's so many posts to read but so many are ridiculous complaints you have to wonder if that guy is even serious or not =/
As for this newest NP change, I like it a lot more than not being able to neural massive units at all - I'm glad that Blizzard is taking its time testing out different things, it'll really help bring a better patch.
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The problem with infested terrans actually is that they benefit from upgrades, making them seem completely broken when going roach/infestors, but rather lackluster otherwise.
It also feels weird to just lump infested terrans around. I'd rather have spawn broodlings or something similar that scales badly when spammed.
As for the range nerf, it will make NP rather useless in ZvT and ZvZ, but it's still the only way to deal with lategame mass archons. If they give it such a short range though, they should allow the infestor to move afterwards, to promote good control. They might even go down to range 6 if they did that.
I still think they should get rid of NP and give infestors a spell to threaten other spellcasters instead. A mute spell could work.
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I have always thought that they should change the NP range for a little bit. Here it comes, only in another way.
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I've been extremely busy with work/family so i haven't played much sc2 lately, but NP was never a problem for me. I thought the fungal was pretty damn op though. It's like storm only infinitely better.
seems weird that fungal is a-ok but np isnt
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I think this will make the zvp matchup at its current state a bit more bearable. Much more micro and positioning knowledge is required, and the buffs to protoss means this will be an even match. Starcraft 2 is much more about the position of armies before the engagement, and this will further add to this aspect. Some may criticise a game like this, but i think positioning in RTS games is more important and interesting to watch than micro, which is still present in the form of EMP's and storms, (not so much fungals though, that may be their next change-to get rid of the ensnare!)
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On September 16 2011 12:52 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 12:37 -_- wrote:On September 16 2011 11:21 coL.CatZ wrote:
this change is just as bad unfortunately. Its like saying, since most people can't micro or target fire, we'll make it easy for them and ridiculously easy for actual good players Blizzard has stated in the past that they do take into account non-professional players when balancing the game, but aren't you in favor of this policy? If not, what do you think about the players in Korea who smile sardonically at the difficulties a North American Grandmasters Zerg player has? Infestor heavy play is not in vogue in Korea. Perhaps Korean Protoss players are so skilled, they can perfectly target down the Infestor who is siphoning the Colossus, making the prospective neural parasite change moot. In Korea, Neural Parasite in Starcraft 2 could be the equivalent of Medic's Restore in Starcraft Broodwar. If this is the case, are you in favor of a spell being imbalanced when players can't exercise enough control, and unusable when they can? Or maybe you're just not skilled enough to comment on the balance of Starcraft 2, and thus don't understand why the change was necessary. Whenever North American players deride the balance opinions of less skilled players, I'm compelled to wonder how they ignore the cognitive dissonance which must occur when they consider where they rank on the Great Cross-Realm Starcraft 2 Ladder which exists only in our hopeful minds. I'm not saying you shouldn't discuss balance unless you're one of the top players in the world, or that you're one of the people I'm describing. In fact, I greatly enjoyed reading the quoted post by you, even thought it was rather short. But I do think you should be careful when you imply that Neural Parasite is perfectly balanced if Protoss players would simply learn how to control their units. Korean Zergs control their units more precisely and hit their queen injects more regularly than you. Maybe Zerg against Protoss would be a simple matchup for Zerg if you could simply do the same? Ummm.... who are you? That's right, nobody. So why are you calling out Catz? NP IS perfectly balanced if Toss players would simply learn how to control their units (hence the less popularity of Infestor usage in Korea. They split against fungals, they have good cannon and obs placement for burrow harass, and they target NPing festors to make Infestors actually look like a BAD investment). Now NPs usage greatly decreases, it's probably not worth the use, might as well get the extra 2 fungals in. But hey, Toss players need the help, a-moving is hard.
who cares who he is? His post had way more value than catz. Catz sounds like a broken record of half the scrub zergs that came here to complain. I cant believe you're going to defend catz based on who he is (which is an above average SC2 player) when he made an awful and useless post like that.
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Blizzard are negotiating with us zergs, we can't back down now - Give us 8 range in exchange for no rage on the official forums, that's our final offer! Deal?
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On September 16 2011 14:42 coL.CatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 12:37 -_- wrote:On September 16 2011 11:21 coL.CatZ wrote:
this change is just as bad unfortunately. Its like saying, since most people can't micro or target fire, we'll make it easy for them and ridiculously easy for actual good players Blizzard has stated in the past that they do take into account non-professional players when balancing the game, but aren't you in favor of this policy? If not, what do you think about the players in Korea who smile sardonically at the difficulties a North American Grandmasters Zerg player has? Infestor heavy play is not in vogue in Korea. Perhaps Korean Protoss players are so skilled, they can perfectly target down the Infestor who is siphoning the Colossus, making the prospective neural parasite change moot. In Korea, Neural Parasite in Starcraft 2 could be the equivalent of Medic's Restore in Starcraft Broodwar. If this is the case, are you in favor of a spell being imbalanced when players can't exercise enough control, and unusable when they can? Or maybe you're just not skilled enough to comment on the balance of Starcraft 2, and thus don't understand why the change was necessary. Whenever North American players deride the balance opinions of less skilled players, I'm compelled to wonder how they ignore the cognitive dissonance which must occur when they consider where they rank on the Great Cross-Realm Starcraft 2 Ladder which exists only in our hopeful minds. I'm not saying you shouldn't discuss balance unless you're one of the top players in the world, or that you're one of the people I'm describing. In fact, I greatly enjoyed reading the quoted post by you, even thought it was rather short. But I do think you should be careful when you imply that Neural Parasite is perfectly balanced if Protoss players would simply learn how to control their units. Korean Zergs control their units more precisely and hit their queen injects more regularly than you. Maybe Zerg against Protoss would be a simple matchup for Zerg if you could simply do the same? you argue that blizzard is balancing the game for lower skilled players, and then say that I can't talk about it cause im not as good as koreans mechanically, you're an incredibly funny person. I am known for strategy and I have more room to talk than most people who post on this thread when it comes to balance, especially when it comes to infestors, I've used infestors since the beta heavily and when they buffed Fungal Growth I told David Kim personally that it was a stupid change, that infestors were already good and people just don't use them because they're dumb. Fungal Growth buff was dumb, now infestors are getting increasingly popular because they're incredibly cost efficient units, just like sentrys, high templar, colossi, tanks, ghosts etc. there are plenty of ways to deal with heavy infestor play from both races, I say this because even though you may not consider me a top tier player, I play with a lot of people I consider to be top tier players on a regular basis and hold my own against anyone for the most part, and they all have good responses to any strategy. You can't balance a game for the lowest tier of players and expect for the game to be actually balanced at the top, reality is basic mechanics for zerg are a lot more complicated than they are for protoss, things of this nature will hurt the game if they try to balance from the bottom up, because if you want to improve zerg's win ratio at lower levels it'll make it too strong at the top for example. Reality here is you shouldn't be talking as if you knew anything or without any sort of argument other than 'koreans are better than you so shut up'... you are the reason most 'pro players' won't post on threads like this, not only is it not appreciated, there's always idiots like yourself trying to argue without any base, im done here, don't bother replying.
More complicated? Get real. Zerg mechanics are automatic... they take muscle memory and general sense of when you had to larva inject last. There's not really any decision making involved, whereas protoss is deciding where to place CB's and building their structures in a way that makes sense. I'm not saying zerg mechanics are easy... or even easier for that matter... that wouldnt be true either... but dont assume that something is more complicated because you have to remember to inject AND spread creep... at least theres no decision-making involved.
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Well, this is better than no neural at all.
Should have made it 8 though, 2 range is a lot. Or they should give infestors a lower target priority.
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EPT
