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On April 25 2014 23:09 tskarzyn wrote:
The maps are too big, and there are very low micro requirements for zerg and toss. Force Zerg and Toss to actually have to babysit their army and give their units more micro potential to differentiate the boys from the men. Agree with maps being too big. Smaller maps would do a lot for balancing the game, since large maps hinder Terran aggression far more than that of the other two races.
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On April 25 2014 14:57 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:
Keep in mind though that afterburners on the Medivacs significantly increase the defensive requirements of the Protoss as he's trying to take a 3rd base, relative to WoL.
It used to be that you could have a few Stalkers to deter drops. So you only needed a couple as long as you knew the Medivac was coming. Now they can just boost in and drop anyway, so instead of a few Stalkers, you actually need to have a force that can fight 2 full Medivacs.
Basically they buffed Muta, then gave afterburners to Medivacs to help them escape Muta, then Medivacs became WAY too fast to the point of being broken (even MarineKing agrees) so they had to give Protoss something to help defend against it.
It's really stupid. But if you take away Warpgate and/or Photon Overcharge and don't remove the Afterburners, it's going to be really really ugly for Protoss. I try to post in this thread as little as possible although I skim it from time to time. But, what you've said here is factually incorrect. Photon Overcharge (previously Purifier Beam) was part of the MSC's abilities from almost the beginning of the HOTS beta. The current iteration of PO was more or less settled in the 5th Beta balance patch. Muta speed and Muta regen were in the 8th and 9th Beta balance patches. Emergency Thrusters (later called Ignite Afterburners) were also at around this time. So, you have the order backwards. However, we don't know the causal chain by which the design team made these decisions, so it's pointless to speculate that X led to Y and to Z and so on. It could quite easily be none of these. Personally, I think the MSC the best addition to Protoss in a long time. IMO a lot of the trouble is that people compare Protoss now with what they were for most of WOL, where our tech tree was largely unrealised or not fully developed, and make that the baseline. Protoss has changed in HOTS and some Terran struggle with the realisation and are slow to adapt. It's not like WOL where a missed FF on the ramp to a stim timing was usually gg or where it was mostly turtle to Colossus and wait for drops. The development and exploration of Protoss play in HOTS is good for Protoss and for SC2 as a whole. Are there problems? Heck yes. The constriction of Terran strategies as a payoff for the explosion of Protoss strategies has been excessive - at least thus far. PO should not be 60 seconds. IMO, this should be revisited in HOTS whatever the effect it may have on PvP. If not, it certainly must be looked at for LOTV. Time Warp should be an upgrade and not immediately accessible by the MSC straight off the bat. Otherwise, to be honest, I see little imbalanced with Protoss.
I still disagree with your assessment that PO duration is the problem; they could reduce it another 20 seconds and have little impact to the STOG. There is a problem when a race is completely safe to any open aggression by simply right clicking on a building. How, in any way, does that foster any skill or multitasking from the Protoss player? It certainly does not make for exciting games to watch. If I'm new to SC 2 and someone asks "what is that huge cannon thing coming out of the top of their structure?" The answer is essentially "Oh, the Protoss player right clicks on their building and they can defend anyting in the first 8-10 minutes of the game." As a new spectator, that would have to be the silliest thing to see after hearing Sc2 is a game that requires massive mulitasking, APM and strategy. I don't even need to play the game to figure out someone made a mistake in game design and put a huge bandaid over it.
Obviously we're beyond the point of no return with game design. So if PO is going to be kept in the game, then have it serve its main purpose - protect the mineral line. Your point (above) was about "one missed FF and GG", well not if PO only covered the minerals. A Protoss should be punished for missing a FF, just like a Terran is punished for missing a wall-off against Zerg. But, I agree, it should not end the game. Which is why the PO range should be drastically reduced to only cover the mineral line. I don't care about duration! But at least give Terran an opportunity to kill a pylon or tech inside the Protoss base as some level of punishment. As a mech player, the fact that PO can out range is a tank is just ridiculous! I have a unit that costs 300/225 minerals/gas with time investment that can be outranged a unit that cost less than 2/3 the price?! By the time a tank comes out there is NO reason a protoss should not have defense.
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20s on the PO would lead to sick timing almost unbeatable for the P I think.
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i like the bigger maps, for example in t v z you can actually reinforce units, if you are down in supply and still make it~
(soo vs maru), some kind of defender advantage is nice ...
toss doesnt really care, since warp in ... there is no downside not to use it
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On April 25 2014 23:09 tskarzyn wrote:
The maps are too big, and there are very low micro requirements for zerg and toss. Force Zerg and Toss to actually have to babysit their army and give their units more micro potential to differentiate the boys from the men.
The maps being too big actually makes life easier for a Terran, a Terran bio army with Medivacs has a ton more manoeuvrability compared to a Protoss ground army for example. You don't see an army at a Protoss base, drop it to death. You have stim, Stim is stupidly insane in terms of taking out a Protoss base, the Protoss recalls? Go drop another base.
I also don't get why army micro is still even an argument here, Terrans get the cheapest army in the whole game with Marines/Marauders/Medivacs and you're expecting to not have to control it more than a Protoss army which is a ton more expensive and can still be rolled over by a stimmed force if we screw up our storms and forcefields or position our Collosi incorrectly.
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On April 26 2014 00:09 KatatoniK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 23:09 tskarzyn wrote:
The maps are too big, and there are very low micro requirements for zerg and toss. Force Zerg and Toss to actually have to babysit their army and give their units more micro potential to differentiate the boys from the men. The maps being too big actually makes life easier for a Terran, a Terran bio army with Medivacs has a ton more manoeuvrability compared to a Protoss ground army for example. You don't see an army at a Protoss base, drop it to death. You have stim, Stim is stupidly insane in terms of taking out a Protoss base, the Protoss recalls? Go drop another base. I also don't get why army micro is still even an argument here, Terrans get the cheapest army in the whole game with Marines/Marauders/Medivacs and you're expecting to not have to control it more than a Protoss army which is a ton more expensive and can still be rolled over by a stimmed force if we screw up our storms and forcefields or position our Collosi incorrectly.
Give me a single game where Terran win against a P in crosspos on Alterazim please.
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On April 26 2014 00:03 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 14:57 aZealot wrote:On April 25 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:
Keep in mind though that afterburners on the Medivacs significantly increase the defensive requirements of the Protoss as he's trying to take a 3rd base, relative to WoL.
It used to be that you could have a few Stalkers to deter drops. So you only needed a couple as long as you knew the Medivac was coming. Now they can just boost in and drop anyway, so instead of a few Stalkers, you actually need to have a force that can fight 2 full Medivacs.
Basically they buffed Muta, then gave afterburners to Medivacs to help them escape Muta, then Medivacs became WAY too fast to the point of being broken (even MarineKing agrees) so they had to give Protoss something to help defend against it.
It's really stupid. But if you take away Warpgate and/or Photon Overcharge and don't remove the Afterburners, it's going to be really really ugly for Protoss. I try to post in this thread as little as possible although I skim it from time to time. But, what you've said here is factually incorrect. Photon Overcharge (previously Purifier Beam) was part of the MSC's abilities from almost the beginning of the HOTS beta. The current iteration of PO was more or less settled in the 5th Beta balance patch. Muta speed and Muta regen were in the 8th and 9th Beta balance patches. Emergency Thrusters (later called Ignite Afterburners) were also at around this time. So, you have the order backwards. However, we don't know the causal chain by which the design team made these decisions, so it's pointless to speculate that X led to Y and to Z and so on. It could quite easily be none of these. Personally, I think the MSC the best addition to Protoss in a long time. IMO a lot of the trouble is that people compare Protoss now with what they were for most of WOL, where our tech tree was largely unrealised or not fully developed, and make that the baseline. Protoss has changed in HOTS and some Terran struggle with the realisation and are slow to adapt. It's not like WOL where a missed FF on the ramp to a stim timing was usually gg or where it was mostly turtle to Colossus and wait for drops. The development and exploration of Protoss play in HOTS is good for Protoss and for SC2 as a whole. Are there problems? Heck yes. The constriction of Terran strategies as a payoff for the explosion of Protoss strategies has been excessive - at least thus far. PO should not be 60 seconds. IMO, this should be revisited in HOTS whatever the effect it may have on PvP. If not, it certainly must be looked at for LOTV. Time Warp should be an upgrade and not immediately accessible by the MSC straight off the bat. Otherwise, to be honest, I see little imbalanced with Protoss. I still disagree with your assessment that PO duration is the problem; they could reduce it another 20 seconds and have little impact to the STOG. There is a problem when a race is completely safe to any open aggression by simply right clicking on a building. How, in any way, does that foster any skill or multitasking from the Protoss player? It certainly does not make for exciting games to watch. If I'm new to SC 2 and ask some "what is that huge cannon thing coming out of the top of their structure?" The answer is essentially "Oh, the Protoss player right clicks on their building and they can defend anyting in the first 8-10 minutes of the game." As a new spectator, that would have to be the silliest thing to see after hearing Sc2 is a game that requires massive mulitasking, APM and strategy. I don't even need to play the game to figure out someone made a mistake in game design and put a huge bandaid over it. Obviously we're beyond the point of no return with game design. So if PO is going to be kept in the game, then have it serve its main purpose - protect the mineral line. Your point (above) was about "one missed FF and GG", well not if PO only covered the minerals. A Protoss should be punished for missing a FF, just like a Terran is punished for missing a wall-off against Zerg. But, I agree, it should not end the game. Which is why the PO range should be drastically reduced to only cover the mineral line. I don't care about duration! But at least give Terran an opportunity to kill a pylon or tech inside the Protoss base as some level of punishment. As a mech player, the fact that PO can out range is a tank is just ridiculous! I have a unit that costs 300/225 minerals/gas with time investment that can be outranged a unit that cost less than 2/3 the price?! By the time a tank comes out there is NO reason a protoss should not have defense.
Tanks cost 150/125, don't factor in the cost of the Factory which you are getting regardless. Especially when going Mech.
MSC would be a 500/100 unit excluding Nexus following that logic.
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I agree that Marines and in some way Marauders are pretty strong units and they synergize amazingly. I think it's also viable to say that having them with Medivacs, it's one of the most cost effective and flexible unit mixes to go for.
BUT it's really really hard to control these units, you always MUST babysit this units best, because in a second they can be all dead. But thats not the point becuase there are people who can contol them properly.
In my opinion the major point is that terrans have by far the most expensive production buildings considering all costs involved. A plain barracks is cheap, yes. but lets to some math:
But during a 3 base game, you may want to have maybe 8-11 production Facilities with addons, in case of reactors a Rax will sum up for 200M/50G per rax. In case of Tech-Labs its 200/25 per rax add 100G for either a Fax or a Starport. During the time of building the upgrades the facilities are occupied, what is a real pain, when going for reactors and not building units.
Considering the main building it's amazing how expensive they are CC 400, OC 550, PF 550/150. Nexus 400, Hatchery 300
Yes Terrans have Mules right, but they need them to compansate for that. Okay a CC adds 11 free supply. 3 supply more at a 3 Base play while having always SCV's occupied to build any building in the game but addons is not enough. Adding 3 rax occupies 3 SCV's for 65 seconds, and that makes the buildings even more expensive, due to the opportunity cost, I would roughly say it's 50 minerals / minute / SCV. You can add this to the cost of the buildings. A CC builds 100 seconds, huge costs of opportunity. Yes Terrans need the mules to compensate for that, considering that during the decision to scan or to calldown supply makes the scan even more expensive than the potenital 260 minerals of a superworker.
Comparig all that to the costs of the tech building of protoss or zerg its a costly disadvantage, that snowballs the longer the game goes and makes it super hard to keep up, once the hard counter units are out. And because the hard counter units to the bio to go mix are so strong terrans have strong hard counter units to them, which weaken the Bioball much, and there are no real support units.
In combination with useless lategame units (BC) and the slowest macro mechanic makes it obvious that cheap tier 1 units need to be super strong, but this all begins with a disparity in costs of production and investment which is not enough payed by 1 more supply in the cc and the mule.
That beeing said I would argue that a cost reduction of either the addons and/or the buildings or the building mechanic are a viable option to check without any compositional changes or micro issues.
The opportunity cost should be considered when calculating the costs of a building.
Rax/Fax/SP should cost 50 minerals less
refinery 25 minerals less
CC 100 minerals less
Each depot should add 9 supply or should cost 25 minerals less.
It should be possible to continue production during the construction of addons, especially reactors, and orbitals.
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On April 26 2014 00:09 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 00:09 KatatoniK wrote:On April 25 2014 23:09 tskarzyn wrote:
The maps are too big, and there are very low micro requirements for zerg and toss. Force Zerg and Toss to actually have to babysit their army and give their units more micro potential to differentiate the boys from the men. The maps being too big actually makes life easier for a Terran, a Terran bio army with Medivacs has a ton more manoeuvrability compared to a Protoss ground army for example. You don't see an army at a Protoss base, drop it to death. You have stim, Stim is stupidly insane in terms of taking out a Protoss base, the Protoss recalls? Go drop another base. I also don't get why army micro is still even an argument here, Terrans get the cheapest army in the whole game with Marines/Marauders/Medivacs and you're expecting to not have to control it more than a Protoss army which is a ton more expensive and can still be rolled over by a stimmed force if we screw up our storms and forcefields or position our Collosi incorrectly. Give me a single game where Terran win against a P in crosspos on Alterazim please.
Well, Alterzim is a problem for many reasons, not just size. Starting with the single ramp natural and the pocket third, all the bases are way too clustered. It greatly enforces deathballing.
Other bigger maps arent that stupidly antiattack.
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On April 26 2014 00:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 00:09 Faust852 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:09 KatatoniK wrote:On April 25 2014 23:09 tskarzyn wrote:
The maps are too big, and there are very low micro requirements for zerg and toss. Force Zerg and Toss to actually have to babysit their army and give their units more micro potential to differentiate the boys from the men. The maps being too big actually makes life easier for a Terran, a Terran bio army with Medivacs has a ton more manoeuvrability compared to a Protoss ground army for example. You don't see an army at a Protoss base, drop it to death. You have stim, Stim is stupidly insane in terms of taking out a Protoss base, the Protoss recalls? Go drop another base. I also don't get why army micro is still even an argument here, Terrans get the cheapest army in the whole game with Marines/Marauders/Medivacs and you're expecting to not have to control it more than a Protoss army which is a ton more expensive and can still be rolled over by a stimmed force if we screw up our storms and forcefields or position our Collosi incorrectly. Give me a single game where Terran win against a P in crosspos on Alterazim please. Well, Alterzim is a problem for many reasons, not just size. Starting with the single ramp natural and the pocket third, all the bases are way too clustered. It greatly enforces deathballing. Other bigger maps arent that stupidly antiattack.
The point was that large maps make for forced macro games and it's much harder to punish the Protoss. You can win fights near the Protoss's base, and unless you're killing pylons that power the gateways, you can't press your advantage. If you look at it the other way, Protoss can win fights near the Terran base and your units are just gonna get steamrolled cuz lol what's defender's advantage
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On April 26 2014 00:08 Faust852 wrote:
20s on the PO would lead to sick timing almost unbeatable for the P I think.
I said another 20 seconds (not 20). It is at 50 right now, which would make it 30 seconds long. Regarless, my point was not about duration, I could care less, it is the range which is absurd.
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On April 26 2014 00:10 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 00:03 SirPinky wrote:On April 25 2014 14:57 aZealot wrote:On April 25 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:
Keep in mind though that afterburners on the Medivacs significantly increase the defensive requirements of the Protoss as he's trying to take a 3rd base, relative to WoL.
It used to be that you could have a few Stalkers to deter drops. So you only needed a couple as long as you knew the Medivac was coming. Now they can just boost in and drop anyway, so instead of a few Stalkers, you actually need to have a force that can fight 2 full Medivacs.
Basically they buffed Muta, then gave afterburners to Medivacs to help them escape Muta, then Medivacs became WAY too fast to the point of being broken (even MarineKing agrees) so they had to give Protoss something to help defend against it.
It's really stupid. But if you take away Warpgate and/or Photon Overcharge and don't remove the Afterburners, it's going to be really really ugly for Protoss. I try to post in this thread as little as possible although I skim it from time to time. But, what you've said here is factually incorrect. Photon Overcharge (previously Purifier Beam) was part of the MSC's abilities from almost the beginning of the HOTS beta. The current iteration of PO was more or less settled in the 5th Beta balance patch. Muta speed and Muta regen were in the 8th and 9th Beta balance patches. Emergency Thrusters (later called Ignite Afterburners) were also at around this time. So, you have the order backwards. However, we don't know the causal chain by which the design team made these decisions, so it's pointless to speculate that X led to Y and to Z and so on. It could quite easily be none of these. Personally, I think the MSC the best addition to Protoss in a long time. IMO a lot of the trouble is that people compare Protoss now with what they were for most of WOL, where our tech tree was largely unrealised or not fully developed, and make that the baseline. Protoss has changed in HOTS and some Terran struggle with the realisation and are slow to adapt. It's not like WOL where a missed FF on the ramp to a stim timing was usually gg or where it was mostly turtle to Colossus and wait for drops. The development and exploration of Protoss play in HOTS is good for Protoss and for SC2 as a whole. Are there problems? Heck yes. The constriction of Terran strategies as a payoff for the explosion of Protoss strategies has been excessive - at least thus far. PO should not be 60 seconds. IMO, this should be revisited in HOTS whatever the effect it may have on PvP. If not, it certainly must be looked at for LOTV. Time Warp should be an upgrade and not immediately accessible by the MSC straight off the bat. Otherwise, to be honest, I see little imbalanced with Protoss. I still disagree with your assessment that PO duration is the problem; they could reduce it another 20 seconds and have little impact to the STOG. There is a problem when a race is completely safe to any open aggression by simply right clicking on a building. How, in any way, does that foster any skill or multitasking from the Protoss player? It certainly does not make for exciting games to watch. If I'm new to SC 2 and ask some "what is that huge cannon thing coming out of the top of their structure?" The answer is essentially "Oh, the Protoss player right clicks on their building and they can defend anyting in the first 8-10 minutes of the game." As a new spectator, that would have to be the silliest thing to see after hearing Sc2 is a game that requires massive mulitasking, APM and strategy. I don't even need to play the game to figure out someone made a mistake in game design and put a huge bandaid over it. Obviously we're beyond the point of no return with game design. So if PO is going to be kept in the game, then have it serve its main purpose - protect the mineral line. Your point (above) was about "one missed FF and GG", well not if PO only covered the minerals. A Protoss should be punished for missing a FF, just like a Terran is punished for missing a wall-off against Zerg. But, I agree, it should not end the game. Which is why the PO range should be drastically reduced to only cover the mineral line. I don't care about duration! But at least give Terran an opportunity to kill a pylon or tech inside the Protoss base as some level of punishment. As a mech player, the fact that PO can out range is a tank is just ridiculous! I have a unit that costs 300/225 minerals/gas with time investment that can be outranged a unit that cost less than 2/3 the price?! By the time a tank comes out there is NO reason a protoss should not have defense. Tanks cost 150/125, don't factor in the cost of the Factory which you are getting regardless. Especially when going Mech. MSC would be a 500/100 unit excluding Nexus following that logic.
Really? You are factoring the cost of a Nexus for the cost of the MSC? I can't help but laugh at that statement. Do you realize going fast factory into a tank push you can die to early blink timing, oracles or proxy dt (unless you have raven?). I'm sorry but that statement holds absolutely no merit when you are trying to defend early tech and investment to the cost of the MSC. Tanks are outranged by MSC and there is absolutely no investment on the Protoss side to do it.
Edit: And there is no initial cost of Nexus at spawn.
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On April 26 2014 00:20 Zulu23 wrote:
I agree that Marines and in some way Marauders are pretty strong units and they synergize amazingly. I think it's also viable to say that having them with Medivacs, it's one of the most cost effective and flexible unit mixes to go for.
BUT it's really really hard to control these units, you always MUST babysit this units best, because in a second they can be all dead. But thats not the point becuase there are people who can contol them properly.
In my opinion the major point is that terrans have by far the most expensive production buildings considering all costs involved. A plain barracks is cheap, yes. but lets to some math:
But during a 3 base game, you may want to have maybe 8-11 production Facilities with addons, in case of reactors a Rax will sum up for 200M/50G per rax. In case of Tech-Labs its 200/25 per rax add 100G for either a Fax or a Starport. During the time of building the upgrades the facilities are occupied, what is a real pain, when going for reactors and not building units.
Considering the main building it's amazing how expensive they are CC 400, OC 550, PF 550/150. Nexus 400, Hatchery 300
Yes Terrans have Mules right, but they need them to compansate for that. Okay a CC adds 11 free supply. 3 supply more at a 3 Base play while having always SCV's occupied to build any building in the game but addons is not enough. Adding 3 rax occupies 3 SCV's for 65 seconds, and that makes the buildings even more expensive, due to the opportunity cost, I would roughly say it's 50 minerals / minute / SCV. You can add this to the cost of the buildings. A CC builds 100 seconds, huge costs of opportunity. Yes Terrans need the mules to compensate for that, considering that during the decision to scan or to calldown supply makes the scan even more expensive than the potenital 260 minerals of a superworker.
Comparig all that to the costs of the tech building of protoss or zerg its a costly disadvantage, that snowballs the longer the game goes and makes it super hard to keep up, once the hard counter units are out. And because the hard counter units to the bio to go mix are so strong terrans have strong hard counter units to them, which weaken the Bioball much, and there are no real support units.
In combination with useless lategame units (BC) and the slowest macro mechanic makes it obvious that cheap tier 1 units need to be super strong, but this all begins with a disparity in costs of production and investment which is not enough payed by 1 more supply in the cc and the mule.
That beeing said I would argue that a cost reduction of either the addons and/or the buildings or the building mechanic are a viable option to check without any compositional changes or micro issues.
The opportunity cost should be considered when calculating the costs of a building.
Rax/Fax/SP should cost 50 minerals less
refinery 25 minerals less
CC 100 minerals less
Each depot should add 9 supply or should cost 25 minerals less.
It should be possible to continue production during the construction of addons, especially reactors, and orbitals.
I´ve allways said that one of the big difficulties in balancing out SC2 is the large difference in cost of infrastructure with Terran having the most expensive and zerg having the cheapest one. This leads to discrepancies, especially early in the game, where a major amount of the mined money is flowing into infrastructure (at least for terran), that you need to balance out in other areas. That´s why terran needs to have more cost efficiant units in the early midgame and needs to have a strong defence in the early game. But with the nerfs during HotS and the queen range buff in late WoL, terran lost most of the advantages, while the disadvantage of having an expensive infrastructure remained. And this is the core of all problems in matchups involving terran.
And I still say: the Hellbat, in it´s state of HotS release, was perfectly balanced to fill that role. It was hugely cost efficiant in the early midgame and fell off over time, as should the terran composition. Because in lategame infrastructure costs only make up a small amount of the expanses of a player. So Terran´s army cost efficiancy has to be higher in comparison to mainly zerg during the early midgame and then towards lategame, zerg has to catch up in that regard. And the Hellbat provided exactly this! They were strong, when they entered the field and were trash lategame, because they were slow and didn´t do much against the tech units of zerg and protoss.
But Blizzard brought in another panic nerf and now the game is shit. Yes, the game in its current state is just absolute shit. And I blame the balance department of blizzard for that.
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On April 26 2014 00:28 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 00:08 Faust852 wrote:
20s on the PO would lead to sick timing almost unbeatable for the P I think. I said another 20 seconds (not 20). It is at 50 right now, which would make it 30 seconds long. Regarless, my point was not about duration, I could care less, it is the range which is absurd.
I don't think I would lose a single game past 10min if you put the PO at 30s. Protoss would be forced to allin to win because only 1min to defend a double timing attack is too short, the protoss won't have enough defensive unit to hold a pressure this early.
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On April 26 2014 00:38 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 00:28 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 00:08 Faust852 wrote:
20s on the PO would lead to sick timing almost unbeatable for the P I think. I said another 20 seconds (not 20). It is at 50 right now, which would make it 30 seconds long. Regarless, my point was not about duration, I could care less, it is the range which is absurd. I don't think I would lose a single game past 10min if you put the PO at 30s. Protoss would be forced to allin to win because only 1min to defend a double timing attack is too short, the protoss won't have enough defensive unit to hold a pressure this early.
Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion). This is how reliant Protoss have become on this mindless unit: They build 1 stalker and a zealot for the first 10 minutes of the game and expect to get double forge and colossus for "free". It's called making units to actually compensate for this change. Or they can just decide to do one of their many all-ins and Terran is non the wiser.
In the last year of WoL 2012 we had 3 Zerg GSL winners; 1 Protoss; and 1 Terran. In fact 2012, season 3 we had a PvP final. I ask what has changed in HOTS? The MSC provides too much reward, with little risks, to tech too fast for Protoss.
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On April 26 2014 00:54 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 00:38 Faust852 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:28 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 00:08 Faust852 wrote:
20s on the PO would lead to sick timing almost unbeatable for the P I think. I said another 20 seconds (not 20). It is at 50 right now, which would make it 30 seconds long. Regarless, my point was not about duration, I could care less, it is the range which is absurd. I don't think I would lose a single game past 10min if you put the PO at 30s. Protoss would be forced to allin to win because only 1min to defend a double timing attack is too short, the protoss won't have enough defensive unit to hold a pressure this early. Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion). This is how reliant Protoss have become on this mindless unit: They build 1 stalker and a zealot for the first 10 minutes of the game and expect to get double forge and colossus for "free". It's called making units to actually compensate for this change. Or they can just decide to do one of their many all-ins and Terran is non the wiser. In the last year of WoL 2012 we had 3 Zerg GSL winners; 1 Protoss; and 1 Terran. In fact 2012, season 3 we had a PvP final. I ask what has changed in HOTS? The MSC provides too much reward, with little risks, to tech too fast for Protoss.
2 words :
Widow Mines.
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On April 26 2014 00:38 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 00:28 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 00:08 Faust852 wrote:
20s on the PO would lead to sick timing almost unbeatable for the P I think. I said another 20 seconds (not 20). It is at 50 right now, which would make it 30 seconds long. Regarless, my point was not about duration, I could care less, it is the range which is absurd. I don't think I would lose a single game past 10min if you put the PO at 30s. Protoss would be forced to allin to win because only 1min to defend a double timing attack is too short, the protoss won't have enough defensive unit to hold a pressure this early.
How did you defend in WoL?
Ok, mines are now better, but apart from that nothing changed, the bio+medivac timings come at the same time?
I am not saying we should remove MSC but you are blowing things way out of proportion.
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On April 26 2014 00:38 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 00:28 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 00:08 Faust852 wrote:
20s on the PO would lead to sick timing almost unbeatable for the P I think. I said another 20 seconds (not 20). It is at 50 right now, which would make it 30 seconds long. Regarless, my point was not about duration, I could care less, it is the range which is absurd. I don't think I would lose a single game past 10min if you put the PO at 30s. Protoss would be forced to allin to win because only 1min to defend a double timing attack is too short, the protoss won't have enough defensive unit to hold a pressure this early.
This is completely untrue since Protoss have been winning games since LONG before the MSC was implemented. They will not win as often, true, and they might go back to WoL levels of success (Which is really just MC/Parting levels of success) but to say that Protoss won't have enough defensive units to survive pressure would be absurd.
The Nexus cannon was implemented for one reason--Protoss died to timing attacks too often for Blizzard's/Community's taste. Many protoss players were able to consistently defend these timing attacks but it made all protoss builds bland since all their variations were either 100% defensive or an all-in. The Nexus Cannon provides enough defensive capabilities that Protoss is able to implement proactive non-all-in builds. Many people want to call these builds all-ins but they are wrong.
It doesn't have to be a nexus cannon, any defensive measure would do. Nexus cannon is the simplest and most direct way, albeit a boring way, to solve the Protoss early game problem. The range was specifically a response to 111 play and the ability to hit air was a specific response to heavy drop play. All in all, it resolved the issue. Any attempt to remove/debuff the Nexus Cannon requires a heavy buff on protoss defensive capabilities. The fear, of course, being that you can't just buff Photon Cannons the way you can just buff Spore Crawlers because cannon rushes are real.
In BW they had Shield Batteries available once you built a Gateway--the idea being that you had the choice of two defensive structures, the powerful cannon if you went forge or the weak Shield Battery if you went Gateway. The idea being that had a choice of Units + Heals or Cannons for defense. The current implementation in HotS is that you get cannons AND you get Nexus Cannon--which is why I said its a bit bland.
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On April 26 2014 00:59 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 00:54 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 00:38 Faust852 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:28 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 00:08 Faust852 wrote:
20s on the PO would lead to sick timing almost unbeatable for the P I think. I said another 20 seconds (not 20). It is at 50 right now, which would make it 30 seconds long. Regarless, my point was not about duration, I could care less, it is the range which is absurd. I don't think I would lose a single game past 10min if you put the PO at 30s. Protoss would be forced to allin to win because only 1min to defend a double timing attack is too short, the protoss won't have enough defensive unit to hold a pressure this early. Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion). This is how reliant Protoss have become on this mindless unit: They build 1 stalker and a zealot for the first 10 minutes of the game and expect to get double forge and colossus for "free". It's called making units to actually compensate for this change. Or they can just decide to do one of their many all-ins and Terran is non the wiser. In the last year of WoL 2012 we had 3 Zerg GSL winners; 1 Protoss; and 1 Terran. In fact 2012, season 3 we had a PvP final. I ask what has changed in HOTS? The MSC provides too much reward, with little risks, to tech too fast for Protoss. 2 words : Widow Mines.
And pre patch hellbats!
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On April 26 2014 01:05 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 00:59 Faust852 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:54 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 00:38 Faust852 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:28 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 00:08 Faust852 wrote:
20s on the PO would lead to sick timing almost unbeatable for the P I think. I said another 20 seconds (not 20). It is at 50 right now, which would make it 30 seconds long. Regarless, my point was not about duration, I could care less, it is the range which is absurd. I don't think I would lose a single game past 10min if you put the PO at 30s. Protoss would be forced to allin to win because only 1min to defend a double timing attack is too short, the protoss won't have enough defensive unit to hold a pressure this early. Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion). This is how reliant Protoss have become on this mindless unit: They build 1 stalker and a zealot for the first 10 minutes of the game and expect to get double forge and colossus for "free". It's called making units to actually compensate for this change. Or they can just decide to do one of their many all-ins and Terran is non the wiser. In the last year of WoL 2012 we had 3 Zerg GSL winners; 1 Protoss; and 1 Terran. In fact 2012, season 3 we had a PvP final. I ask what has changed in HOTS? The MSC provides too much reward, with little risks, to tech too fast for Protoss. 2 words : Widow Mines. And pre patch hellbats!
Pre-Patch hellbats is not the reason you have a cannon with the range of a siege tank.
Actually--would a shorter ranged cannon be up for discussion? Imagine if Nexus cannon only had say 8-9 range? Long enough for everything but allows Terran timing attacks with tanks in the early game?
It would allow the Nexus cannon to defend everything except siege weapons forcing increased unit production but only if the opponent went fast factory.
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EPT
