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On April 26 2014 01:00 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 00:38 Faust852 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:28 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 00:08 Faust852 wrote:
20s on the PO would lead to sick timing almost unbeatable for the P I think. I said another 20 seconds (not 20). It is at 50 right now, which would make it 30 seconds long. Regarless, my point was not about duration, I could care less, it is the range which is absurd. I don't think I would lose a single game past 10min if you put the PO at 30s. Protoss would be forced to allin to win because only 1min to defend a double timing attack is too short, the protoss won't have enough defensive unit to hold a pressure this early. How did you defend in WoL? Ok, mines are now better, but apart from that nothing changed, the bio+medivac timings come at the same time? I am not saying we should remove MSC but you are blowing things way out of proportion.
I just say that reducing OC to 30s is really harsh and will allow much stronger timing attack in the midgame.
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On April 26 2014 01:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 01:05 YyapSsap wrote:On April 26 2014 00:59 Faust852 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:54 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 00:38 Faust852 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:28 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 00:08 Faust852 wrote:
20s on the PO would lead to sick timing almost unbeatable for the P I think. I said another 20 seconds (not 20). It is at 50 right now, which would make it 30 seconds long. Regarless, my point was not about duration, I could care less, it is the range which is absurd. I don't think I would lose a single game past 10min if you put the PO at 30s. Protoss would be forced to allin to win because only 1min to defend a double timing attack is too short, the protoss won't have enough defensive unit to hold a pressure this early. Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion). This is how reliant Protoss have become on this mindless unit: They build 1 stalker and a zealot for the first 10 minutes of the game and expect to get double forge and colossus for "free". It's called making units to actually compensate for this change. Or they can just decide to do one of their many all-ins and Terran is non the wiser. In the last year of WoL 2012 we had 3 Zerg GSL winners; 1 Protoss; and 1 Terran. In fact 2012, season 3 we had a PvP final. I ask what has changed in HOTS? The MSC provides too much reward, with little risks, to tech too fast for Protoss. 2 words : Widow Mines. And pre patch hellbats! Pre-Patch hellbats is not the reason you have a cannon with the range of a siege tank. Actually--would a shorter ranged cannon be up for discussion? Imagine if Nexus cannon only had say 8-9 range? Long enough for everything but allows Terran timing attacks with tanks in the early game? It would allow the Nexus cannon to defend everything except siege weapons forcing increased unit production but only if the opponent went fast factory.
Dont take it out of context. I was replying to the part where SirPinky said "Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion)" which is infact not true.
But yes you do have an interesting point. The nexus PO range is slightly reduced so that tank based aggression could be viable. But Im afraid this might make literally all terrans to do this if Protoss does the normal 1 gate expand or something along those lines.
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On April 26 2014 01:18 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 01:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:05 YyapSsap wrote:On April 26 2014 00:59 Faust852 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:54 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 00:38 Faust852 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:28 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 00:08 Faust852 wrote:
20s on the PO would lead to sick timing almost unbeatable for the P I think. I said another 20 seconds (not 20). It is at 50 right now, which would make it 30 seconds long. Regarless, my point was not about duration, I could care less, it is the range which is absurd. I don't think I would lose a single game past 10min if you put the PO at 30s. Protoss would be forced to allin to win because only 1min to defend a double timing attack is too short, the protoss won't have enough defensive unit to hold a pressure this early. Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion). This is how reliant Protoss have become on this mindless unit: They build 1 stalker and a zealot for the first 10 minutes of the game and expect to get double forge and colossus for "free". It's called making units to actually compensate for this change. Or they can just decide to do one of their many all-ins and Terran is non the wiser. In the last year of WoL 2012 we had 3 Zerg GSL winners; 1 Protoss; and 1 Terran. In fact 2012, season 3 we had a PvP final. I ask what has changed in HOTS? The MSC provides too much reward, with little risks, to tech too fast for Protoss. 2 words : Widow Mines. And pre patch hellbats! Pre-Patch hellbats is not the reason you have a cannon with the range of a siege tank. Actually--would a shorter ranged cannon be up for discussion? Imagine if Nexus cannon only had say 8-9 range? Long enough for everything but allows Terran timing attacks with tanks in the early game? It would allow the Nexus cannon to defend everything except siege weapons forcing increased unit production but only if the opponent went fast factory. Dont take it out of context. I was replying to the part where SirPinky said "Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion)" which is infact not true. But yes you do have an interesting point. The nexus PO range is slightly reduced so that tank based aggression could be viable. But Im afraid this might make literally all terrans to do this if Protoss does the normal 1 gate expand or something along those lines.
Technically that's good. Its important to have lines of play that can be transitioned into upon new scouting information. Bio play was non-existent in BW PvT, for example, in which case all terrans went fast Factory. Some of them defensively to protect a FE, others to hit siege timings. Giving Terrans an aggressive option from factory tech would give terrans the ability to threaten a huge push and "force units" out of Protoss even if they don't intend to do a timing attack. It would encourage early to midgame tank play, etc...
Hmm... I wonder....
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On April 26 2014 00:28 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 00:08 Faust852 wrote:
20s on the PO would lead to sick timing almost unbeatable for the P I think. I said another 20 seconds (not 20). It is at 50 right now, which would make it 30 seconds long. Regarless, my point was not about duration, I could care less, it is the range which is absurd.
It's still 60. The proposed nerf was not implemented.
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On April 26 2014 01:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 01:18 YyapSsap wrote:On April 26 2014 01:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:05 YyapSsap wrote:On April 26 2014 00:59 Faust852 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:54 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 00:38 Faust852 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:28 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 00:08 Faust852 wrote:
20s on the PO would lead to sick timing almost unbeatable for the P I think. I said another 20 seconds (not 20). It is at 50 right now, which would make it 30 seconds long. Regarless, my point was not about duration, I could care less, it is the range which is absurd. I don't think I would lose a single game past 10min if you put the PO at 30s. Protoss would be forced to allin to win because only 1min to defend a double timing attack is too short, the protoss won't have enough defensive unit to hold a pressure this early. Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion). This is how reliant Protoss have become on this mindless unit: They build 1 stalker and a zealot for the first 10 minutes of the game and expect to get double forge and colossus for "free". It's called making units to actually compensate for this change. Or they can just decide to do one of their many all-ins and Terran is non the wiser. In the last year of WoL 2012 we had 3 Zerg GSL winners; 1 Protoss; and 1 Terran. In fact 2012, season 3 we had a PvP final. I ask what has changed in HOTS? The MSC provides too much reward, with little risks, to tech too fast for Protoss. 2 words : Widow Mines. And pre patch hellbats! Pre-Patch hellbats is not the reason you have a cannon with the range of a siege tank. Actually--would a shorter ranged cannon be up for discussion? Imagine if Nexus cannon only had say 8-9 range? Long enough for everything but allows Terran timing attacks with tanks in the early game? It would allow the Nexus cannon to defend everything except siege weapons forcing increased unit production but only if the opponent went fast factory. Dont take it out of context. I was replying to the part where SirPinky said "Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion)" which is infact not true. But yes you do have an interesting point. The nexus PO range is slightly reduced so that tank based aggression could be viable. But Im afraid this might make literally all terrans to do this if Protoss does the normal 1 gate expand or something along those lines. Technically that's good. Its important to have lines of play that can be transitioned into upon new scouting information. Bio play was non-existent in BW PvT, for example, in which case all terrans went fast Factory. Some of them defensively to protect a FE, others to hit siege timings. Giving Terrans an aggressive option from factory tech would give terrans the ability to threaten a huge push and "force units" out of Protoss even if they don't intend to do a timing attack. It would encourage early to midgame tank play, etc... Hmm... I wonder....
You mean like the widow mine aggression that we see in half of the current TvP games?
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Assuming you didn't mean actual Photon Cannons, given what the sentence leads into...
On April 26 2014 01:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Actually--would a shorter ranged [photon] "cannon" overcharge be up for discussion? Imagine if Nexus cannon only had say 8-9 range? Long enough for everything but allows Terran timing attacks with tanks in the early game?
It would allow the Nexus cannon to defend everything except siege weapons forcing increased unit production but only if the opponent went fast factory.
SirPinky was just talking about a lower range version of Photon Overcharge just earlier on this page, talking about it only covering the mineral line, so at least one person wants to have that discussion, yes!
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On April 26 2014 01:26 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 01:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:18 YyapSsap wrote:On April 26 2014 01:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:05 YyapSsap wrote:On April 26 2014 00:59 Faust852 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:54 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 00:38 Faust852 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:28 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 00:08 Faust852 wrote:
20s on the PO would lead to sick timing almost unbeatable for the P I think. I said another 20 seconds (not 20). It is at 50 right now, which would make it 30 seconds long. Regarless, my point was not about duration, I could care less, it is the range which is absurd. I don't think I would lose a single game past 10min if you put the PO at 30s. Protoss would be forced to allin to win because only 1min to defend a double timing attack is too short, the protoss won't have enough defensive unit to hold a pressure this early. Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion). This is how reliant Protoss have become on this mindless unit: They build 1 stalker and a zealot for the first 10 minutes of the game and expect to get double forge and colossus for "free". It's called making units to actually compensate for this change. Or they can just decide to do one of their many all-ins and Terran is non the wiser. In the last year of WoL 2012 we had 3 Zerg GSL winners; 1 Protoss; and 1 Terran. In fact 2012, season 3 we had a PvP final. I ask what has changed in HOTS? The MSC provides too much reward, with little risks, to tech too fast for Protoss. 2 words : Widow Mines. And pre patch hellbats! Pre-Patch hellbats is not the reason you have a cannon with the range of a siege tank. Actually--would a shorter ranged cannon be up for discussion? Imagine if Nexus cannon only had say 8-9 range? Long enough for everything but allows Terran timing attacks with tanks in the early game? It would allow the Nexus cannon to defend everything except siege weapons forcing increased unit production but only if the opponent went fast factory. Dont take it out of context. I was replying to the part where SirPinky said "Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion)" which is infact not true. But yes you do have an interesting point. The nexus PO range is slightly reduced so that tank based aggression could be viable. But Im afraid this might make literally all terrans to do this if Protoss does the normal 1 gate expand or something along those lines. Technically that's good. Its important to have lines of play that can be transitioned into upon new scouting information. Bio play was non-existent in BW PvT, for example, in which case all terrans went fast Factory. Some of them defensively to protect a FE, others to hit siege timings. Giving Terrans an aggressive option from factory tech would give terrans the ability to threaten a huge push and "force units" out of Protoss even if they don't intend to do a timing attack. It would encourage early to midgame tank play, etc... Hmm... I wonder.... You mean like the widow mine aggression that we see in half of the current TvP games?
Widow Mine aggression is different than parking a siege tank at range and poking.
The terran army can't advance in fear of PO, and the Protoss Army does not push out until they get enough tech (usually immortals) to break the siege. The goal is to force Protoss to either suffer minor infrastructure damage or force Protoss to commit to units to defend their base.
That is very different from "Oh god oh god does he have an observer?"
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On April 26 2014 01:27 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:Assuming you didn't mean actual Photon Cannons, given what the sentence leads into... Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 01:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Actually--would a shorter ranged [photon] "cannon" overcharge be up for discussion? Imagine if Nexus cannon only had say 8-9 range? Long enough for everything but allows Terran timing attacks with tanks in the early game?
It would allow the Nexus cannon to defend everything except siege weapons forcing increased unit production but only if the opponent went fast factory. SirPinky was just talking about a lower range version of Photon Overcharge just earlier on this page, talking about it only covering the mineral line, so at least one person wants to have that discussion, yes!
I've always assumed that PO needed range to cover their wall in vs Zerg and to push away siege tank pressure. I've never thought about one that covers mineral lines. At such a short range you can even start giving it aoe/damage buff to compensate for lost range making it stronger against harass/mutas but weaker to early game timing attacks. (although not useless vs them since the army can pull back to the nexus as needed)
Very interesting idea.
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On April 26 2014 01:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 01:26 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 01:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:18 YyapSsap wrote:On April 26 2014 01:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:05 YyapSsap wrote:On April 26 2014 00:59 Faust852 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:54 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 00:38 Faust852 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:28 SirPinky wrote:
[quote]
I said another 20 seconds (not 20). It is at 50 right now, which would make it 30 seconds long. Regarless, my point was not about duration, I could care less, it is the range which is absurd. I don't think I would lose a single game past 10min if you put the PO at 30s. Protoss would be forced to allin to win because only 1min to defend a double timing attack is too short, the protoss won't have enough defensive unit to hold a pressure this early. Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion). This is how reliant Protoss have become on this mindless unit: They build 1 stalker and a zealot for the first 10 minutes of the game and expect to get double forge and colossus for "free". It's called making units to actually compensate for this change. Or they can just decide to do one of their many all-ins and Terran is non the wiser. In the last year of WoL 2012 we had 3 Zerg GSL winners; 1 Protoss; and 1 Terran. In fact 2012, season 3 we had a PvP final. I ask what has changed in HOTS? The MSC provides too much reward, with little risks, to tech too fast for Protoss. 2 words : Widow Mines. And pre patch hellbats! Pre-Patch hellbats is not the reason you have a cannon with the range of a siege tank. Actually--would a shorter ranged cannon be up for discussion? Imagine if Nexus cannon only had say 8-9 range? Long enough for everything but allows Terran timing attacks with tanks in the early game? It would allow the Nexus cannon to defend everything except siege weapons forcing increased unit production but only if the opponent went fast factory. Dont take it out of context. I was replying to the part where SirPinky said "Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion)" which is infact not true. But yes you do have an interesting point. The nexus PO range is slightly reduced so that tank based aggression could be viable. But Im afraid this might make literally all terrans to do this if Protoss does the normal 1 gate expand or something along those lines. Technically that's good. Its important to have lines of play that can be transitioned into upon new scouting information. Bio play was non-existent in BW PvT, for example, in which case all terrans went fast Factory. Some of them defensively to protect a FE, others to hit siege timings. Giving Terrans an aggressive option from factory tech would give terrans the ability to threaten a huge push and "force units" out of Protoss even if they don't intend to do a timing attack. It would encourage early to midgame tank play, etc... Hmm... I wonder.... You mean like the widow mine aggression that we see in half of the current TvP games? Widow Mine aggression is different than parking a siege tank at range and poking. The terran army can't advance in fear of PO, and the Protoss Army does not push out until they get enough tech (usually immortals) to break the siege. The goal is to force Protoss to either suffer minor infrastructure damage or force Protoss to commit to units to defend their base. That is very different from "Oh god oh god does he have an observer?"
You mean you want your own stupid brute force rush.
No thanks, not more blink and immortal bullshit than we already have.
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On April 26 2014 01:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 01:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:26 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 01:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:18 YyapSsap wrote:On April 26 2014 01:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:05 YyapSsap wrote:On April 26 2014 00:59 Faust852 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:54 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 00:38 Faust852 wrote:
[quote]
I don't think I would lose a single game past 10min if you put the PO at 30s. Protoss would be forced to allin to win because only 1min to defend a double timing attack is too short, the protoss won't have enough defensive unit to hold a pressure this early. Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion). This is how reliant Protoss have become on this mindless unit: They build 1 stalker and a zealot for the first 10 minutes of the game and expect to get double forge and colossus for "free". It's called making units to actually compensate for this change. Or they can just decide to do one of their many all-ins and Terran is non the wiser. In the last year of WoL 2012 we had 3 Zerg GSL winners; 1 Protoss; and 1 Terran. In fact 2012, season 3 we had a PvP final. I ask what has changed in HOTS? The MSC provides too much reward, with little risks, to tech too fast for Protoss. 2 words : Widow Mines. And pre patch hellbats! Pre-Patch hellbats is not the reason you have a cannon with the range of a siege tank. Actually--would a shorter ranged cannon be up for discussion? Imagine if Nexus cannon only had say 8-9 range? Long enough for everything but allows Terran timing attacks with tanks in the early game? It would allow the Nexus cannon to defend everything except siege weapons forcing increased unit production but only if the opponent went fast factory. Dont take it out of context. I was replying to the part where SirPinky said "Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion)" which is infact not true. But yes you do have an interesting point. The nexus PO range is slightly reduced so that tank based aggression could be viable. But Im afraid this might make literally all terrans to do this if Protoss does the normal 1 gate expand or something along those lines. Technically that's good. Its important to have lines of play that can be transitioned into upon new scouting information. Bio play was non-existent in BW PvT, for example, in which case all terrans went fast Factory. Some of them defensively to protect a FE, others to hit siege timings. Giving Terrans an aggressive option from factory tech would give terrans the ability to threaten a huge push and "force units" out of Protoss even if they don't intend to do a timing attack. It would encourage early to midgame tank play, etc... Hmm... I wonder.... You mean like the widow mine aggression that we see in half of the current TvP games? Widow Mine aggression is different than parking a siege tank at range and poking. The terran army can't advance in fear of PO, and the Protoss Army does not push out until they get enough tech (usually immortals) to break the siege. The goal is to force Protoss to either suffer minor infrastructure damage or force Protoss to commit to units to defend their base. That is very different from "Oh god oh god does he have an observer?" You mean you want your own stupid brute force rush. No thanks, not more blink and immortal bullshit than we already have.
What the hell are you talking about?
I'm asking for a push that is slow enough to be scouted, weak enough to be deflected, effective enough to force superficial damage, and strong enough that if ignored can kill the opponent.
I'm asking for a situation wherein it is possible to apply pressure with expensive enough units that it takes time to amass the numbers.
I want it to be defensible enough that they can't just march into your base and is forced to siege out of range of your defenses.
I want it to be able to apply pressure but at a slow enough rate that Protoss can amass enough troops to stop it.
And I want it strong enough to be able to kill them if ignored.
I want a proactive game where both players care about what the other does.
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On April 26 2014 02:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 01:47 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 01:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:26 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 01:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:18 YyapSsap wrote:On April 26 2014 01:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:05 YyapSsap wrote:On April 26 2014 00:59 Faust852 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:54 SirPinky wrote:
[quote]
Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion). This is how reliant Protoss have become on this mindless unit: They build 1 stalker and a zealot for the first 10 minutes of the game and expect to get double forge and colossus for "free". It's called making units to actually compensate for this change. Or they can just decide to do one of their many all-ins and Terran is non the wiser.
In the last year of WoL 2012 we had 3 Zerg GSL winners; 1 Protoss; and 1 Terran. In fact 2012, season 3 we had a PvP final. I ask what has changed in HOTS? The MSC provides too much reward, with little risks, to tech too fast for Protoss. 2 words : Widow Mines. And pre patch hellbats! Pre-Patch hellbats is not the reason you have a cannon with the range of a siege tank. Actually--would a shorter ranged cannon be up for discussion? Imagine if Nexus cannon only had say 8-9 range? Long enough for everything but allows Terran timing attacks with tanks in the early game? It would allow the Nexus cannon to defend everything except siege weapons forcing increased unit production but only if the opponent went fast factory. Dont take it out of context. I was replying to the part where SirPinky said "Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion)" which is infact not true. But yes you do have an interesting point. The nexus PO range is slightly reduced so that tank based aggression could be viable. But Im afraid this might make literally all terrans to do this if Protoss does the normal 1 gate expand or something along those lines. Technically that's good. Its important to have lines of play that can be transitioned into upon new scouting information. Bio play was non-existent in BW PvT, for example, in which case all terrans went fast Factory. Some of them defensively to protect a FE, others to hit siege timings. Giving Terrans an aggressive option from factory tech would give terrans the ability to threaten a huge push and "force units" out of Protoss even if they don't intend to do a timing attack. It would encourage early to midgame tank play, etc... Hmm... I wonder.... You mean like the widow mine aggression that we see in half of the current TvP games? Widow Mine aggression is different than parking a siege tank at range and poking. The terran army can't advance in fear of PO, and the Protoss Army does not push out until they get enough tech (usually immortals) to break the siege. The goal is to force Protoss to either suffer minor infrastructure damage or force Protoss to commit to units to defend their base. That is very different from "Oh god oh god does he have an observer?" You mean you want your own stupid brute force rush. No thanks, not more blink and immortal bullshit than we already have. What the hell are you talking about? I'm asking for a push that is slow enough to be scouted, weak enough to be deflected, effective enough to force superficial damage, and strong enough that if ignored can kill the opponent. I'm asking for a situation wherein it is possible to apply pressure with expensive enough units that it takes time to amass the numbers. I want it to be defensible enough that they can't just march into your base and is forced to siege out of range of your defenses. I want it to be able to apply pressure but at a slow enough rate that Protoss can amass enough troops to stop it. And I want it strong enough to be able to kill them if ignored. I want a proactive game where both players care about what the other does.
Exactly. This was my point in my post(s) the page before. This strategy can easily be seen by any observer and prepared against - but it requires units! In the current STOG, if I was Protoss (which I have made GM before, but only Masters Terran - go figure), I don't need to prepare at all. All I have to do is warp in a few zealots (if any) to target tank and the push is held. In fact, I wouldn't even prepare, instead i'd just tech up to colo or counter with a warp prism while my stupid Terran oppenent sits there getting hit by an over-ranged, mindless spell.
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On April 26 2014 02:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 01:47 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 01:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:26 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 01:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:18 YyapSsap wrote:On April 26 2014 01:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:05 YyapSsap wrote:On April 26 2014 00:59 Faust852 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:54 SirPinky wrote:
[quote]
Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion). This is how reliant Protoss have become on this mindless unit: They build 1 stalker and a zealot for the first 10 minutes of the game and expect to get double forge and colossus for "free". It's called making units to actually compensate for this change. Or they can just decide to do one of their many all-ins and Terran is non the wiser.
In the last year of WoL 2012 we had 3 Zerg GSL winners; 1 Protoss; and 1 Terran. In fact 2012, season 3 we had a PvP final. I ask what has changed in HOTS? The MSC provides too much reward, with little risks, to tech too fast for Protoss. 2 words : Widow Mines. And pre patch hellbats! Pre-Patch hellbats is not the reason you have a cannon with the range of a siege tank. Actually--would a shorter ranged cannon be up for discussion? Imagine if Nexus cannon only had say 8-9 range? Long enough for everything but allows Terran timing attacks with tanks in the early game? It would allow the Nexus cannon to defend everything except siege weapons forcing increased unit production but only if the opponent went fast factory. Dont take it out of context. I was replying to the part where SirPinky said "Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion)" which is infact not true. But yes you do have an interesting point. The nexus PO range is slightly reduced so that tank based aggression could be viable. But Im afraid this might make literally all terrans to do this if Protoss does the normal 1 gate expand or something along those lines. Technically that's good. Its important to have lines of play that can be transitioned into upon new scouting information. Bio play was non-existent in BW PvT, for example, in which case all terrans went fast Factory. Some of them defensively to protect a FE, others to hit siege timings. Giving Terrans an aggressive option from factory tech would give terrans the ability to threaten a huge push and "force units" out of Protoss even if they don't intend to do a timing attack. It would encourage early to midgame tank play, etc... Hmm... I wonder.... You mean like the widow mine aggression that we see in half of the current TvP games? Widow Mine aggression is different than parking a siege tank at range and poking. The terran army can't advance in fear of PO, and the Protoss Army does not push out until they get enough tech (usually immortals) to break the siege. The goal is to force Protoss to either suffer minor infrastructure damage or force Protoss to commit to units to defend their base. That is very different from "Oh god oh god does he have an observer?" You mean you want your own stupid brute force rush. No thanks, not more blink and immortal bullshit than we already have. What the hell are you talking about? I'm asking for a push that is slow enough to be scouted, weak enough to be deflected, effective enough to force superficial damage, and strong enough that if ignored can kill the opponent.I'm asking for a situation wherein it is possible to apply pressure with expensive enough units that it takes time to amass the numbers. I want it to be defensible enough that they can't just march into your base and is forced to siege out of range of your defenses. I want it to be able to apply pressure but at a slow enough rate that Protoss can amass enough troops to stop it. And I want it strong enough to be able to kill them if ignored. I want a proactive game where both players care about what the other does.
That's basically impossible in the early game with the build times we have in the game. Early game frontal pushes have to rely on scouting missinformation/speed.
If it is "slow enough to be scouted", it needs to be extremely powerful to not just get roflstomped by an opponent that thus had enough time to get prepared. Else it is exactly what Terran has right now. You can try to 1-1-1 or 2-3rax of 1base. It's easily identifiable and slow. And thus gets crushed very hard because the opponent will simply be prepared.
The only time when something like this exists in SC2 is when you play a mirror matchup and both sides invest into a similar push at similar times.
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On April 26 2014 02:29 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 02:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:47 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 01:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:26 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 01:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:18 YyapSsap wrote:On April 26 2014 01:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:05 YyapSsap wrote:On April 26 2014 00:59 Faust852 wrote:
[quote]
2 words :
Widow Mines. And pre patch hellbats! Pre-Patch hellbats is not the reason you have a cannon with the range of a siege tank. Actually--would a shorter ranged cannon be up for discussion? Imagine if Nexus cannon only had say 8-9 range? Long enough for everything but allows Terran timing attacks with tanks in the early game? It would allow the Nexus cannon to defend everything except siege weapons forcing increased unit production but only if the opponent went fast factory. Dont take it out of context. I was replying to the part where SirPinky said "Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion)" which is infact not true. But yes you do have an interesting point. The nexus PO range is slightly reduced so that tank based aggression could be viable. But Im afraid this might make literally all terrans to do this if Protoss does the normal 1 gate expand or something along those lines. Technically that's good. Its important to have lines of play that can be transitioned into upon new scouting information. Bio play was non-existent in BW PvT, for example, in which case all terrans went fast Factory. Some of them defensively to protect a FE, others to hit siege timings. Giving Terrans an aggressive option from factory tech would give terrans the ability to threaten a huge push and "force units" out of Protoss even if they don't intend to do a timing attack. It would encourage early to midgame tank play, etc... Hmm... I wonder.... You mean like the widow mine aggression that we see in half of the current TvP games? Widow Mine aggression is different than parking a siege tank at range and poking. The terran army can't advance in fear of PO, and the Protoss Army does not push out until they get enough tech (usually immortals) to break the siege. The goal is to force Protoss to either suffer minor infrastructure damage or force Protoss to commit to units to defend their base. That is very different from "Oh god oh god does he have an observer?" You mean you want your own stupid brute force rush. No thanks, not more blink and immortal bullshit than we already have. What the hell are you talking about? I'm asking for a push that is slow enough to be scouted, weak enough to be deflected, effective enough to force superficial damage, and strong enough that if ignored can kill the opponent.I'm asking for a situation wherein it is possible to apply pressure with expensive enough units that it takes time to amass the numbers. I want it to be defensible enough that they can't just march into your base and is forced to siege out of range of your defenses. I want it to be able to apply pressure but at a slow enough rate that Protoss can amass enough troops to stop it. And I want it strong enough to be able to kill them if ignored. I want a proactive game where both players care about what the other does. That's basically impossible in the early game with the build times we have in the game. Early game frontal pushes have to rely on scouting missinformation/speed. If it is "slow enough to be scouted", it needs to be extremely powerful to not just get roflstomped by an opponent that thus had enough time to get prepared. Else it is exactly what Terran has right now. You can try to 1-1-1 or 2-3rax of 1base. It's easily identifiable and slow. And thus gets crushed very hard because the opponent will simply be prepared. The only time when something like this exists in SC2 is when you play a mirror matchup and both sides invest into a similar push at similar times.
You say, "And thus gets crushed very hard because the opponent will simply be prepared." But that is exactly our point - Protoss DO NOT need to prepare for a tank push. They right click on the Nexus and it is held b/c of its absurd range. In WoL a tank push could be very strong against a greedy Protoss if they didn't scout or make at least 1 immortal. Now you don't even need a robotics bay to hold it.
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On April 26 2014 02:39 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 02:29 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 02:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:47 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 01:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:26 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 01:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:18 YyapSsap wrote:On April 26 2014 01:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:05 YyapSsap wrote:
[quote]
And pre patch hellbats! Pre-Patch hellbats is not the reason you have a cannon with the range of a siege tank. Actually--would a shorter ranged cannon be up for discussion? Imagine if Nexus cannon only had say 8-9 range? Long enough for everything but allows Terran timing attacks with tanks in the early game? It would allow the Nexus cannon to defend everything except siege weapons forcing increased unit production but only if the opponent went fast factory. Dont take it out of context. I was replying to the part where SirPinky said "Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion)" which is infact not true. But yes you do have an interesting point. The nexus PO range is slightly reduced so that tank based aggression could be viable. But Im afraid this might make literally all terrans to do this if Protoss does the normal 1 gate expand or something along those lines. Technically that's good. Its important to have lines of play that can be transitioned into upon new scouting information. Bio play was non-existent in BW PvT, for example, in which case all terrans went fast Factory. Some of them defensively to protect a FE, others to hit siege timings. Giving Terrans an aggressive option from factory tech would give terrans the ability to threaten a huge push and "force units" out of Protoss even if they don't intend to do a timing attack. It would encourage early to midgame tank play, etc... Hmm... I wonder.... You mean like the widow mine aggression that we see in half of the current TvP games? Widow Mine aggression is different than parking a siege tank at range and poking. The terran army can't advance in fear of PO, and the Protoss Army does not push out until they get enough tech (usually immortals) to break the siege. The goal is to force Protoss to either suffer minor infrastructure damage or force Protoss to commit to units to defend their base. That is very different from "Oh god oh god does he have an observer?" You mean you want your own stupid brute force rush. No thanks, not more blink and immortal bullshit than we already have. What the hell are you talking about? I'm asking for a push that is slow enough to be scouted, weak enough to be deflected, effective enough to force superficial damage, and strong enough that if ignored can kill the opponent.I'm asking for a situation wherein it is possible to apply pressure with expensive enough units that it takes time to amass the numbers. I want it to be defensible enough that they can't just march into your base and is forced to siege out of range of your defenses. I want it to be able to apply pressure but at a slow enough rate that Protoss can amass enough troops to stop it. And I want it strong enough to be able to kill them if ignored. I want a proactive game where both players care about what the other does. That's basically impossible in the early game with the build times we have in the game. Early game frontal pushes have to rely on scouting missinformation/speed. If it is "slow enough to be scouted", it needs to be extremely powerful to not just get roflstomped by an opponent that thus had enough time to get prepared. Else it is exactly what Terran has right now. You can try to 1-1-1 or 2-3rax of 1base. It's easily identifiable and slow. And thus gets crushed very hard because the opponent will simply be prepared. The only time when something like this exists in SC2 is when you play a mirror matchup and both sides invest into a similar push at similar times. You say, "And thus gets crushed very hard because the opponent will simply be prepared." But that is exactly our point - Protoss DO NOT need to prepare for a tank push. They right click on the Nexus and it is held b/c of its absurd range. In WoL a tank push could be very strong against a greedy Protoss if they didn't scout or make at least 1 immortal. Now you don't even need a robotics bay to hold it.
I've played against early Tank pushes that come with a Raven for PDD against the Photon Overcharge. They're quite hard to deal with, especially if you don't scout and prepare correctly.
EDIT - and I think Terrans need to be a bit more creative in how they approach the game. Smashing face first into Photon Overcharge and then complaining about it is silly. TY vs. CJherO on Outboxer was awesome.
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On April 26 2014 01:17 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 01:00 Qwerty85 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:38 Faust852 wrote:On April 26 2014 00:28 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 00:08 Faust852 wrote:
20s on the PO would lead to sick timing almost unbeatable for the P I think. I said another 20 seconds (not 20). It is at 50 right now, which would make it 30 seconds long. Regarless, my point was not about duration, I could care less, it is the range which is absurd. I don't think I would lose a single game past 10min if you put the PO at 30s. Protoss would be forced to allin to win because only 1min to defend a double timing attack is too short, the protoss won't have enough defensive unit to hold a pressure this early. How did you defend in WoL? Ok, mines are now better, but apart from that nothing changed, the bio+medivac timings come at the same time? I am not saying we should remove MSC but you are blowing things way out of proportion. I just say that reducing OC to 30s is really harsh and will allow much stronger timing attack in the midgame.
You mean that Protoss would no longer be able to do whatever ridiculous build they want to and might have to be on the lookout for potentially fatal aggression?
Sounds like a good thing to me.
To be honest, this whole debate reminds me about the BL/Infestor era. Zerg players were very convinced that everything was fine and that Terran and Protoss just had to be 'more creative'. The thing was that they had become so accustomed to being able to safely double FE every game that they thought that this was supposed to be the standard zerg play, in the same way that Protoss players now find it normal that they can pull of any sort of pressure without having to be afraid of repercussions.
The state Protoss is in now is not normal. Protoss players winning six of the past seven premier tournaments is not normal. The overrepresentation of Protoss in a ro16 is not normal. The fact that Terran is forced into doing the same opening time and again while Protoss can get away with every crazy build they can come up with is not normal. The early-game defensive capabilities and offensive Protoss has are ridiculous, especially since a Protoss army only gets stronger as the game goes on. The reason we see so many Swarmhosts PvZ games is because it is the only thing that can stall a Protoss player long enough for Zerg to build up a bank for a tech switch.
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On April 26 2014 03:19 DinoMight wrote:
EDIT - and I think Terrans need to be a bit more creative in how they approach the game. Smashing face first into Photon Overcharge and then complaining about it is silly. TY vs. CJherO on Outboxer was awesome.
Yeah, because CC rax gas on a 2p map into a Tank drop can completely be a standard way to play...
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On April 26 2014 03:19 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 02:39 SirPinky wrote:On April 26 2014 02:29 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 02:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:47 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 01:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:26 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 01:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 26 2014 01:18 YyapSsap wrote:On April 26 2014 01:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
Pre-Patch hellbats is not the reason you have a cannon with the range of a siege tank.
Actually--would a shorter ranged cannon be up for discussion? Imagine if Nexus cannon only had say 8-9 range? Long enough for everything but allows Terran timing attacks with tanks in the early game?
It would allow the Nexus cannon to defend everything except siege weapons forcing increased unit production but only if the opponent went fast factory. Dont take it out of context. I was replying to the part where SirPinky said "Did you play WoL? I only ask because Terran has absolutely no new units in HoTs to really change gameplay in the first 10 minutes (anything that had potential was nerfed into oblivion)" which is infact not true. But yes you do have an interesting point. The nexus PO range is slightly reduced so that tank based aggression could be viable. But Im afraid this might make literally all terrans to do this if Protoss does the normal 1 gate expand or something along those lines. Technically that's good. Its important to have lines of play that can be transitioned into upon new scouting information. Bio play was non-existent in BW PvT, for example, in which case all terrans went fast Factory. Some of them defensively to protect a FE, others to hit siege timings. Giving Terrans an aggressive option from factory tech would give terrans the ability to threaten a huge push and "force units" out of Protoss even if they don't intend to do a timing attack. It would encourage early to midgame tank play, etc... Hmm... I wonder.... You mean like the widow mine aggression that we see in half of the current TvP games? Widow Mine aggression is different than parking a siege tank at range and poking. The terran army can't advance in fear of PO, and the Protoss Army does not push out until they get enough tech (usually immortals) to break the siege. The goal is to force Protoss to either suffer minor infrastructure damage or force Protoss to commit to units to defend their base. That is very different from "Oh god oh god does he have an observer?" You mean you want your own stupid brute force rush. No thanks, not more blink and immortal bullshit than we already have. What the hell are you talking about? I'm asking for a push that is slow enough to be scouted, weak enough to be deflected, effective enough to force superficial damage, and strong enough that if ignored can kill the opponent.I'm asking for a situation wherein it is possible to apply pressure with expensive enough units that it takes time to amass the numbers. I want it to be defensible enough that they can't just march into your base and is forced to siege out of range of your defenses. I want it to be able to apply pressure but at a slow enough rate that Protoss can amass enough troops to stop it. And I want it strong enough to be able to kill them if ignored. I want a proactive game where both players care about what the other does. That's basically impossible in the early game with the build times we have in the game. Early game frontal pushes have to rely on scouting missinformation/speed. If it is "slow enough to be scouted", it needs to be extremely powerful to not just get roflstomped by an opponent that thus had enough time to get prepared. Else it is exactly what Terran has right now. You can try to 1-1-1 or 2-3rax of 1base. It's easily identifiable and slow. And thus gets crushed very hard because the opponent will simply be prepared. The only time when something like this exists in SC2 is when you play a mirror matchup and both sides invest into a similar push at similar times. You say, "And thus gets crushed very hard because the opponent will simply be prepared." But that is exactly our point - Protoss DO NOT need to prepare for a tank push. They right click on the Nexus and it is held b/c of its absurd range. In WoL a tank push could be very strong against a greedy Protoss if they didn't scout or make at least 1 immortal. Now you don't even need a robotics bay to hold it. I've played against early Tank pushes that come with a Raven for PDD against the Photon Overcharge. They're quite hard to deal with, especially if you don't scout and prepare correctly. EDIT - and I think Terrans need to be a bit more creative in how they approach the game. Smashing face first into Photon Overcharge and then complaining about it is silly. TY vs. CJherO on Outboxer was awesome.
Lets not beat around the bush. Tank push and PDD timing is a all-in build that requires an SCV pull and typically banshees are produced after the Raven. It has a very low success rate if scouted and that is why you do not see it in large tournaments - it is gimmicke at best. I also can't believe you pulled the "Terrans need to adapt card". It's been like this for over 7 months and even Protoss players are voicing a problem. That approach to the designated balance discussion is useless and outdated. Take a look at the Terran presence in trounaments and I'm sure it all comes down to what you said - I guess they're not thinking hard enough. Yes, the best Terran's in the world playing this game day-after-day were not creative enough - that's why 4 Terrans made it to the Ro32 GSL. I think I would take offense to that statement if I were stuck in Code A working my butt off...
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Terran isn't weak. It's just boring. MMM maybe plus VG since 2010. Zerg and Toss have many diverse and interesting builds. Terran really doesn't. Any Terran tech opening is almost considered cheese. IMO, the problem is not with Zerg or Toss. Those races are diverse and interesting. The problem is with Terran. MMM is so incredibly powerful and versatile that it becomes dangerous to buff other units that could synergize with the MMM. Example: pre-nerf Widow Mines and Hellbats. IMO, Terran is the worst-designed race in SC2. It is quite powerful, despite all the QQ. But it seems tedious and boring.
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On April 26 2014 03:34 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 03:19 DinoMight wrote:
EDIT - and I think Terrans need to be a bit more creative in how they approach the game. Smashing face first into Photon Overcharge and then complaining about it is silly. TY vs. CJherO on Outboxer was awesome. Yeah, because CC rax gas on a 2p map into a Tank drop can completely be a standard way to play...
The map also played a big part in that strategy (being able to hit the natural mineral line AND being out of PO range with tanks)
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On April 26 2014 03:50 Salient wrote:
Terran isn't weak. It's just boring. MMM maybe plus VG since 2010.
Indeed, it's not like WoL was Marines/Tanks in TvT (and some mech) and TvZ (and some mech). Marauders are not central at all in those match-ups, but whatever. Thanks for the umpteenth hollow "MMM spam since 2010!" comment.
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EPT
