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On April 25 2014 22:26 Qwerty85 wrote:
After watching some recent games when terran just straight up loses to unspotted stuff I wonder if terran should get improved scouting for Lotv. For example, MMA not being able to scout DTs yesterday, Maru losing to 2 base 1-1 roach timing today are just most recent examples.
I mean, reapers are only good for very limited amount of time and are also very map dependent. Scan is basically luck based because all races can place buildings out of obvious scan locations and hide their tech very well.
I would love to see some kind of flying terran scout unit, something that can take over once reapers stop being effective...
What do you guys think?
Terran just needs the ability to build turrets without the engineering bay requirement. Spotted an oracle too late? build a turret straight away. No engineering bay and you see DTs? build turrets while minimizing the initial damage.
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On April 25 2014 22:30 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 22:26 Qwerty85 wrote:
After watching some recent games when terran just straight up loses to unspotted stuff I wonder if terran should get improved scouting for Lotv. For example, MMA not being able to scout DTs yesterday, Maru losing to 2 base 1-1 roach timing today are just most recent examples.
I mean, reapers are only good for very limited amount of time and are also very map dependent. Scan is basically luck based because all races can place buildings out of obvious scan locations and hide their tech very well.
I would love to see some kind of flying terran scout unit, something that can take over once reapers stop being effective...
What do you guys think? Terran just needs the ability to build turrets without the engineering bay requirement. Spotted an oracle too late? build a turret straight away. No engineering bay and you see DTs? build turrets while minimizing the initial damage.
I'd rather have flying ebays.
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On April 25 2014 22:26 Qwerty85 wrote:
After watching some recent games when terran just straight up loses to unspotted stuff I wonder if terran should get improved scouting for Lotv. For example, MMA not being able to scout DTs yesterday, Maru losing to 2 base 1-1 roach timing today are just most recent examples.
I mean, reapers are only good for very limited amount of time and are also very map dependent. Scan is basically luck based because all races can place buildings out of obvious scan locations and hide their tech very well.
I would love to see some kind of flying terran scout unit, something that can take over once reapers stop being effective...
What do you guys think?
Banshees can do the trick, at least in TvZ. I'd love it if in general it wouldn't be possible to hide anything tech/productionrelated.
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I think the current meta needs some seriously shakeups. Terran just does not win anymore unless your the ABSOLUTE best. The race itself isn't "perfectly" designed either nor is it complete contrary to popular belief if you actually think about it.
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Now even Maru struggles, the last hope 
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On April 25 2014 22:32 YyapSsap wrote:
I think the current meta needs some seriously shakeups. Terran just does not win anymore unless your the ABSOLUTE best. The race itself isn't "perfectly" designed either nor is it complete contrary to popular belief if you actually think about it.
Terran mostly lacks a lategame transition and aggressive tools in the early game, IMO.
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On April 25 2014 22:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 22:26 Qwerty85 wrote:
After watching some recent games when terran just straight up loses to unspotted stuff I wonder if terran should get improved scouting for Lotv. For example, MMA not being able to scout DTs yesterday, Maru losing to 2 base 1-1 roach timing today are just most recent examples.
I mean, reapers are only good for very limited amount of time and are also very map dependent. Scan is basically luck based because all races can place buildings out of obvious scan locations and hide their tech very well.
I would love to see some kind of flying terran scout unit, something that can take over once reapers stop being effective...
What do you guys think? Banshees can do the trick, at least in TvZ. But in general I'd love it if in general it wouldn't be possible to hide anything tech/productionrelated.
The issue isn't that you can hide stuff imo, rather that most of these allins are so hard to hold (too easy to execute?)
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Maybe separate energy for scans and mules at CC, whereas make scans cost more energy so T cannot use them too frequently. As it seems, sucrifising a Mule for a scan is too much right now.
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On April 25 2014 22:34 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 22:32 YyapSsap wrote:
I think the current meta needs some seriously shakeups. Terran just does not win anymore unless your the ABSOLUTE best. The race itself isn't "perfectly" designed either nor is it complete contrary to popular belief if you actually think about it. Terran mostly lacks a lategame transition and aggressive tools in the early game, IMO.
Well, they don't lack them as much as zerg and protoss have way too many ways to ward it off.
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On April 25 2014 22:37 TW wrote:
Maybe separate energy for scans and mules at CC, whereas make scans cost more energy so T cannot use them too frequently. As it seems, sucrifising a Mule for a scan is too much right now.
The trade off mechanic is the most interesting about the entire OC....
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On April 25 2014 22:45 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 22:34 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 25 2014 22:32 YyapSsap wrote:
I think the current meta needs some seriously shakeups. Terran just does not win anymore unless your the ABSOLUTE best. The race itself isn't "perfectly" designed either nor is it complete contrary to popular belief if you actually think about it. Terran mostly lacks a lategame transition and aggressive tools in the early game, IMO. Well, they don't lack them as much as zerg and protoss have way too many ways to ward it off.
Let me say I implied the word viable in that statement.
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On April 25 2014 22:47 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 22:45 maartendq wrote:On April 25 2014 22:34 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 25 2014 22:32 YyapSsap wrote:
I think the current meta needs some seriously shakeups. Terran just does not win anymore unless your the ABSOLUTE best. The race itself isn't "perfectly" designed either nor is it complete contrary to popular belief if you actually think about it. Terran mostly lacks a lategame transition and aggressive tools in the early game, IMO. Well, they don't lack them as much as zerg and protoss have way too many ways to ward it off. Let me say I implied the word viable in that statement.
And they're not viable precisely because of what he said.
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On April 25 2014 22:49 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 22:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 25 2014 22:45 maartendq wrote:On April 25 2014 22:34 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 25 2014 22:32 YyapSsap wrote:
I think the current meta needs some seriously shakeups. Terran just does not win anymore unless your the ABSOLUTE best. The race itself isn't "perfectly" designed either nor is it complete contrary to popular belief if you actually think about it. Terran mostly lacks a lategame transition and aggressive tools in the early game, IMO. Well, they don't lack them as much as zerg and protoss have way too many ways to ward it off. Let me say I implied the word viable in that statement. And they're not viable precisely because of what he said.
Thus Terran lacks a lategame transition and aggressive tools in the early game that are viable, as I said.
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On April 25 2014 22:34 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 22:32 YyapSsap wrote:
I think the current meta needs some seriously shakeups. Terran just does not win anymore unless your the ABSOLUTE best. The race itself isn't "perfectly" designed either nor is it complete contrary to popular belief if you actually think about it. Terran mostly lacks a lategame transition and aggressive tools in the early game, IMO.
Im going to expand my thoughts because your partly right.
Terran imo is flawed in terms of design. Why?
-Their main tools are TOO GOOD. Marines and marauders synergise way too well and have the ability to handle almost every unit in the game.
-99% of their supportive/other tools are not very good. The other 1% being the medivac.
You have three units, the marine/marauder/medivac that can handle almost all type of units whether flying or on ground extremely well. Its mobile, its dps is potentially one of the highest in the game, easily accessible and they also cost cheap. This is the root of all the problems if you ask me. These three units fulfil almost every role (at a satisfactory level) that is required throughout the game. Things have even gotten better in the mobility side of things thanks to the medivac speedboost.
This results in the other half or more of the terran arsenal (that requires gas) simply not required unless otherwise required for a VERY specific roles. e.g. vikings vs colossi, ghosts vs enemy casters. Sometimes these support units slow down the MMM's effectiveness because they need setup time, they are slow or even taking away the DPS because of the supply cost.
At the end of the day your left with a race that:
-Cannot make its composition stronger because it actually hurts the overall performance e.g. mobility and DPS (along with Terran gas units getting hard countered by numerous foes)
-Its core units are way too versatile/strong, making other units compensate and often rendered useless unless its a mirror match (and perhaps reason why we all think gateway units stink which infact they are not when its MMM vs gateway)
-A race that doesn't really need gas and too much emphasis on minerals.
-Nothing to transition to for the end game except the mirror matchup.
Not only this but they are hamstrung with the slowest macro production in the game i.e. if you lose your army, you've lost and that transition is almost impossible because of how Terran tech tree and production works. Hence the frustration of playing Terran and how punishing mistakes are.
It was frustrating to watch Maru constantly doing the same thing over and over again whereas for SoO, there are SO many options/tools to combat Maru better each and every time. Just thinking to myself, surely there must be something he can build to combat banelings better, or mutalisks better in the grand scheme of things so it doesn't break the flow of the game (which was simply on a knife's edge) but there simply was not. Nothing to add to the composition. Nothing to transition into. Same story with MMA vs Parting a few days ago on the same map. Sure you can keep adding orbitals and extra bases. But what else can he add to the end game composition? just keep massing ghosts?
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On April 25 2014 22:53 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 22:49 TheDwf wrote:On April 25 2014 22:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 25 2014 22:45 maartendq wrote:On April 25 2014 22:34 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 25 2014 22:32 YyapSsap wrote:
I think the current meta needs some seriously shakeups. Terran just does not win anymore unless your the ABSOLUTE best. The race itself isn't "perfectly" designed either nor is it complete contrary to popular belief if you actually think about it. Terran mostly lacks a lategame transition and aggressive tools in the early game, IMO. Well, they don't lack them as much as zerg and protoss have way too many ways to ward it off. Let me say I implied the word viable in that statement. And they're not viable precisely because of what he said. Thus Terran lacks a lategame transition and aggressive tools in the early game that are viable, as I said.
I think we Terrans don't lack early game aggressive tools really. I think the problem is they are just countered by the MSC. I mean, you can almost forget doing any damage vs Toss before your 2 medivacs arrive.
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On April 25 2014 22:59 Vallz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 22:53 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 25 2014 22:49 TheDwf wrote:On April 25 2014 22:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 25 2014 22:45 maartendq wrote:On April 25 2014 22:34 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 25 2014 22:32 YyapSsap wrote:
I think the current meta needs some seriously shakeups. Terran just does not win anymore unless your the ABSOLUTE best. The race itself isn't "perfectly" designed either nor is it complete contrary to popular belief if you actually think about it. Terran mostly lacks a lategame transition and aggressive tools in the early game, IMO. Well, they don't lack them as much as zerg and protoss have way too many ways to ward it off. Let me say I implied the word viable in that statement. And they're not viable precisely because of what he said. Thus Terran lacks a lategame transition and aggressive tools in the early game that are viable, as I said. I think we Terrans don't lack early game aggressive tools really. I think the problem is they are just countered by the MSC. I mean, you can almost forget doing any damage vs Toss before your 2 medivacs arrive.
What pushes like a zealot stalker MSC poke can Terran employ?
Reaper Hellion isn't that threatening, it's in a good place.
vs Toss, there's nothing.
I agree with the guy abve with the analysis on MMM too good, the rest fucking terrible!
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The maps are too big, and there are very low micro requirements for zerg and toss. Force Zerg and Toss to actually have to babysit their army and give their units more micro potential to differentiate the boys from the men.
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On April 25 2014 22:53 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 22:49 TheDwf wrote:On April 25 2014 22:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 25 2014 22:45 maartendq wrote:On April 25 2014 22:34 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 25 2014 22:32 YyapSsap wrote:
I think the current meta needs some seriously shakeups. Terran just does not win anymore unless your the ABSOLUTE best. The race itself isn't "perfectly" designed either nor is it complete contrary to popular belief if you actually think about it. Terran mostly lacks a lategame transition and aggressive tools in the early game, IMO. Well, they don't lack them as much as zerg and protoss have way too many ways to ward it off. Let me say I implied the word viable in that statement. And they're not viable precisely because of what he said. Thus Terran lacks a lategame transition and aggressive tools in the early game that are viable, as I said.
Then have fun buffing the "unviable early game Terran aggressive tools" so they can break through a 2000 hp Cannon and somehow not break TvT/TvZ.
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On April 25 2014 23:32 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 22:53 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 25 2014 22:49 TheDwf wrote:On April 25 2014 22:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 25 2014 22:45 maartendq wrote:On April 25 2014 22:34 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 25 2014 22:32 YyapSsap wrote:
I think the current meta needs some seriously shakeups. Terran just does not win anymore unless your the ABSOLUTE best. The race itself isn't "perfectly" designed either nor is it complete contrary to popular belief if you actually think about it. Terran mostly lacks a lategame transition and aggressive tools in the early game, IMO. Well, they don't lack them as much as zerg and protoss have way too many ways to ward it off. Let me say I implied the word viable in that statement. And they're not viable precisely because of what he said. Thus Terran lacks a lategame transition and aggressive tools in the early game that are viable, as I said. Then have fun buffing the "unviable early game Terran aggressive tools" so they can break through a 2000 hp Cannon and somehow not break TvT/TvZ.
What's up with the snarky remarks?
Anything involving +vs shields works, but I don't like that, personally.
Changing Overcharge to become a channeling spell (leaving the MSC open to being attacked) might be an excellent solution (vikings/marines can now 'kill' overcharge).
Maps with wider naturals (fucks with PvZ, sadly) and more open thirds.
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On April 25 2014 23:09 tskarzyn wrote:
The maps are too big, and there are very low micro requirements for zerg and toss. Force Zerg and Toss to actually have to babysit their army and give their units more micro potential to differentiate the boys from the men.
Ye there was such unit called widow mine that really made zergs micro their army but then this unit got obliterated.
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EPT
