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On April 25 2014 03:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 03:55 Faust852 wrote:
Anyway saying that Sentries are useless in fight as you said DinoMight is an evidence that you don't really understand the game. Guardian Shield + FF are some of the must useful skills to have in a fight. Just that the protoss army is so strong it doesn't even need it, but in addition, it makes the battle much more one sided, I garantee it. I have never known anyone attempt to argue that Stalker/Zealot without Sentries is able to beat much of anything outside of timing attacks (and even then those are all about early sentries saving up energy) I also see very very few protoss pross maintain high sentry counts once they get past gateway tech into colossus/void/immortal play. Those that do mainly have kept the same sentries alive all game and don't actually produce them anymore.
Chargelot / Blink Stalker trades pretty well with Marine / Maurader (with stim + conc shell + combat shields), but it's extremely rare to see pure marine / maurader without medivac support. There are actually a few gimmick protoss builds where you get a really fast (6:30-7:00) third and defend against the 10-12 minute bio push with overwhelming numbers of chargelot / blink stalker (usually with a couple sentries + MsC to support). Grubby likes to use this a lot.
edit: I think it was Startale that had a build similar to this too in WoL? A really gimmicky 1 gate into 3 nexus into mass gateway units build.
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On April 25 2014 04:26 Pursuit_ wrote:
edit: I think it was Startale that had a build similar to this too in WoL? A really gimmicky 1 gate into 3 nexus into mass gateway units build.
PartinG's quick third into 8g.
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On April 25 2014 04:26 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 03:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 25 2014 03:55 Faust852 wrote:
Anyway saying that Sentries are useless in fight as you said DinoMight is an evidence that you don't really understand the game. Guardian Shield + FF are some of the must useful skills to have in a fight. Just that the protoss army is so strong it doesn't even need it, but in addition, it makes the battle much more one sided, I garantee it. I have never known anyone attempt to argue that Stalker/Zealot without Sentries is able to beat much of anything outside of timing attacks (and even then those are all about early sentries saving up energy) I also see very very few protoss pross maintain high sentry counts once they get past gateway tech into colossus/void/immortal play. Those that do mainly have kept the same sentries alive all game and don't actually produce them anymore. Chargelot / Blink Stalker trades pretty well with Marine / Maurader (with stim + conc shell + combat shields), but it's extremely rare to see pure marine / maurader without medivac support. There are actually a few gimmick protoss builds where you get a really fast (6:30-7:00) third and defend against the 10-12 minute bio push with overwhelming numbers of chargelot / blink stalker (usually with a couple sentries + MsC to support). Grubby likes to use this a lot. edit: I think it was Startale that had a build similar to this too in WoL? A really gimmicky 1 gate into 3 nexus into mass gateway units build.
Yeah, Parting used to do it as well but then it got figured solved and the whole Startale Protoss line up went on a losing streak, it was very sad.
But yes, Chargelots + blink is able to kind of fight marine/marauder (no medivac) very well mostly because the terran trump of conc is countered by the "guaranteed hit" of the speedlot. Over time the terran line falls to the blades enough that blink stalkers can whittle whats left. Assuming of course no choke, even army, and even timing.
But like you said, expecting Terran to not have Medivacs when protoss has both Charge and Blink is very very unlikely.
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On April 25 2014 04:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 04:26 Pursuit_ wrote:On April 25 2014 03:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 25 2014 03:55 Faust852 wrote:
Anyway saying that Sentries are useless in fight as you said DinoMight is an evidence that you don't really understand the game. Guardian Shield + FF are some of the must useful skills to have in a fight. Just that the protoss army is so strong it doesn't even need it, but in addition, it makes the battle much more one sided, I garantee it. I have never known anyone attempt to argue that Stalker/Zealot without Sentries is able to beat much of anything outside of timing attacks (and even then those are all about early sentries saving up energy) I also see very very few protoss pross maintain high sentry counts once they get past gateway tech into colossus/void/immortal play. Those that do mainly have kept the same sentries alive all game and don't actually produce them anymore. Chargelot / Blink Stalker trades pretty well with Marine / Maurader (with stim + conc shell + combat shields), but it's extremely rare to see pure marine / maurader without medivac support. There are actually a few gimmick protoss builds where you get a really fast (6:30-7:00) third and defend against the 10-12 minute bio push with overwhelming numbers of chargelot / blink stalker (usually with a couple sentries + MsC to support). Grubby likes to use this a lot. edit: I think it was Startale that had a build similar to this too in WoL? A really gimmicky 1 gate into 3 nexus into mass gateway units build. Yeah, Parting used to do it as well but then it got figured solved and the whole Startale Protoss line up went on a losing streak, it was very sad. But yes, Chargelots + blink is able to kind of fight marine/marauder (no medivac) very well mostly because the terran trump of conc is countered by the "guaranteed hit" of the speedlot. Over time the terran line falls to the blades enough that blink stalkers can whittle whats left. Assuming of course no choke, even army, and even timing. But like you said, expecting Terran to not have Medivacs when protoss has both Charge and Blink is very very unlikely.
Yeah, I'm just using this as an example to point out that Gateway units aren't inherently bad or anything. It's a myth that's been around for a really long time but just isn't true. By the time Medivac's (Terran's expensive support unit) are out in a standard game, Protoss almost always has their first AoE tech to support their Gateway units.
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On April 25 2014 04:40 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 04:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 25 2014 04:26 Pursuit_ wrote:On April 25 2014 03:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 25 2014 03:55 Faust852 wrote:
Anyway saying that Sentries are useless in fight as you said DinoMight is an evidence that you don't really understand the game. Guardian Shield + FF are some of the must useful skills to have in a fight. Just that the protoss army is so strong it doesn't even need it, but in addition, it makes the battle much more one sided, I garantee it. I have never known anyone attempt to argue that Stalker/Zealot without Sentries is able to beat much of anything outside of timing attacks (and even then those are all about early sentries saving up energy) I also see very very few protoss pross maintain high sentry counts once they get past gateway tech into colossus/void/immortal play. Those that do mainly have kept the same sentries alive all game and don't actually produce them anymore. Chargelot / Blink Stalker trades pretty well with Marine / Maurader (with stim + conc shell + combat shields), but it's extremely rare to see pure marine / maurader without medivac support. There are actually a few gimmick protoss builds where you get a really fast (6:30-7:00) third and defend against the 10-12 minute bio push with overwhelming numbers of chargelot / blink stalker (usually with a couple sentries + MsC to support). Grubby likes to use this a lot. edit: I think it was Startale that had a build similar to this too in WoL? A really gimmicky 1 gate into 3 nexus into mass gateway units build. Yeah, Parting used to do it as well but then it got figured solved and the whole Startale Protoss line up went on a losing streak, it was very sad. But yes, Chargelots + blink is able to kind of fight marine/marauder (no medivac) very well mostly because the terran trump of conc is countered by the "guaranteed hit" of the speedlot. Over time the terran line falls to the blades enough that blink stalkers can whittle whats left. Assuming of course no choke, even army, and even timing. But like you said, expecting Terran to not have Medivacs when protoss has both Charge and Blink is very very unlikely. Yeah, I'm just using this as an example to point out that Gateway units aren't inherently bad or anything. It's a myth that's been around for a really long time but just isn't true. By the time Medivac's (Terran's expensive support unit) are out in a standard game, Protoss almost always has their first AoE tech to support their Gateway units.
This is completely contradictory to the entire WoL metagame where Protoss had to survive the terran push long enough for Storm/Colossus to come online. This was where a lot of MKP's "macro style" came from. The 2 medivac push of WoL as well as early drop play (mostly in WoL and sometimes in HotS) gets medivacs out ridiculously early with enough oompf to wreck a worker line--if there wasn't a pyramid sized turret defending the base.
To compensate for nexus cannon, Terrans have more macro oriented builds that delay medivac production in order to push for stronger econ. This makes them delay their tech to be about even with Protoss tech.
The timings have changed is all.
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On April 25 2014 04:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 04:40 Pursuit_ wrote:On April 25 2014 04:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 25 2014 04:26 Pursuit_ wrote:On April 25 2014 03:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 25 2014 03:55 Faust852 wrote:
Anyway saying that Sentries are useless in fight as you said DinoMight is an evidence that you don't really understand the game. Guardian Shield + FF are some of the must useful skills to have in a fight. Just that the protoss army is so strong it doesn't even need it, but in addition, it makes the battle much more one sided, I garantee it. I have never known anyone attempt to argue that Stalker/Zealot without Sentries is able to beat much of anything outside of timing attacks (and even then those are all about early sentries saving up energy) I also see very very few protoss pross maintain high sentry counts once they get past gateway tech into colossus/void/immortal play. Those that do mainly have kept the same sentries alive all game and don't actually produce them anymore. Chargelot / Blink Stalker trades pretty well with Marine / Maurader (with stim + conc shell + combat shields), but it's extremely rare to see pure marine / maurader without medivac support. There are actually a few gimmick protoss builds where you get a really fast (6:30-7:00) third and defend against the 10-12 minute bio push with overwhelming numbers of chargelot / blink stalker (usually with a couple sentries + MsC to support). Grubby likes to use this a lot. edit: I think it was Startale that had a build similar to this too in WoL? A really gimmicky 1 gate into 3 nexus into mass gateway units build. Yeah, Parting used to do it as well but then it got figured solved and the whole Startale Protoss line up went on a losing streak, it was very sad. But yes, Chargelots + blink is able to kind of fight marine/marauder (no medivac) very well mostly because the terran trump of conc is countered by the "guaranteed hit" of the speedlot. Over time the terran line falls to the blades enough that blink stalkers can whittle whats left. Assuming of course no choke, even army, and even timing. But like you said, expecting Terran to not have Medivacs when protoss has both Charge and Blink is very very unlikely. Yeah, I'm just using this as an example to point out that Gateway units aren't inherently bad or anything. It's a myth that's been around for a really long time but just isn't true. By the time Medivac's (Terran's expensive support unit) are out in a standard game, Protoss almost always has their first AoE tech to support their Gateway units. This is completely contradictory to the entire WoL metagame where Protoss had to survive the terran push long enough for Storm/Colossus to come online. This was where a lot of MKP's "macro style" came from. The 2 medivac push of WoL as well as early drop play (mostly in WoL and sometimes in HotS) gets medivacs out ridiculously early with enough oompf to wreck a worker line--if there wasn't a pyramid sized turret defending the base. To compensate for nexus cannon, Terrans have more macro oriented builds that delay medivac production in order to push for stronger econ. This makes them delay their tech to be about even with Protoss tech. The timings have changed is all.
What? Medivacs are coming out at the same time now in HotS as they were in WoL. The biggest difference is that Protoss used to have to make units before the 8:00 mark to defend potential Terran aggression, now they dont because of the MsC so Protoss AoE + upgrades comes out even faster. I dont remember any game in WoL where the 2 medivac push was coming out before Protoss had Collosi or Storm unless Protoss tried and All-In and failed.
Really, Terran played even greedier in WoL typically (1 rax into 3cc for example was really popular) than they can in HotS because of the variety of aggressive macro builds Protoss has that have the potential to win the game.
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Keep in mind though that afterburners on the Medivacs significantly increase the defensive requirements of the Protoss as he's trying to take a 3rd base, relative to WoL.
It used to be that you could have a few Stalkers to deter drops. So you only needed a couple as long as you knew the Medivac was coming. Now they can just boost in and drop anyway, so instead of a few Stalkers, you actually need to have a force that can fight 2 full Medivacs.
Basically they buffed Muta, then gave afterburners to Medivacs to help them escape Muta, then Medivacs became WAY too fast to the point of being broken (even MarineKing agrees) so they had to give Protoss something to help defend against it.
It's really stupid. But if you take away Warpgate and/or Photon Overcharge and don't remove the Afterburners, it's going to be really really ugly for Protoss.
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On April 25 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:
Keep in mind though that afterburners on the Medivacs significantly increase the defensive requirements of the Protoss as he's trying to take a 3rd base, relative to WoL.
It used to be that you could have a few Stalkers to deter drops. So you only needed a couple as long as you knew the Medivac was coming. Now they can just boost in and drop anyway, so instead of a few Stalkers, you actually need to have a force that can fight 2 full Medivacs.
Basically they buffed Muta, then gave afterburners to Medivacs to help them escape Muta, then Medivacs became WAY too fast to the point of being broken (even MarineKing agrees) so they had to give Protoss something to help defend against it.
It's really stupid. But if you take away Warpgate and/or Photon Overcharge and don't remove the Afterburners, it's going to be really really ugly for Protoss.
Terran and Zerg don't have Warp gates and PO and can defend these super fast medivacs just fine.
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On April 25 2014 13:43 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:
Keep in mind though that afterburners on the Medivacs significantly increase the defensive requirements of the Protoss as he's trying to take a 3rd base, relative to WoL.
It used to be that you could have a few Stalkers to deter drops. So you only needed a couple as long as you knew the Medivac was coming. Now they can just boost in and drop anyway, so instead of a few Stalkers, you actually need to have a force that can fight 2 full Medivacs.
Basically they buffed Muta, then gave afterburners to Medivacs to help them escape Muta, then Medivacs became WAY too fast to the point of being broken (even MarineKing agrees) so they had to give Protoss something to help defend against it.
It's really stupid. But if you take away Warpgate and/or Photon Overcharge and don't remove the Afterburners, it's going to be really really ugly for Protoss. Terran and Zerg don't have Warp gates and PO and can defend these super fast medivacs just fine.
Zerg has creep spread, overlord spotters, and the fastest units both on ground and air--I wonder why they don't have a problem.
Terran don't need PO because they produce siege tanks--which are cheap, mobile, AOE nexus cannons that can attack as much as defend. So much so that terran drops sometimes have to attack structures and depots because well placed tanks can prevent effective scv harass.
But sure, if you made zealots as fast as speedlings on creep or had cheap mobile nexus cannons, I can see how warp-ins are not needed to stop terran drop play.
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On April 25 2014 14:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 13:43 Chaggi wrote:On April 25 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:
Keep in mind though that afterburners on the Medivacs significantly increase the defensive requirements of the Protoss as he's trying to take a 3rd base, relative to WoL.
It used to be that you could have a few Stalkers to deter drops. So you only needed a couple as long as you knew the Medivac was coming. Now they can just boost in and drop anyway, so instead of a few Stalkers, you actually need to have a force that can fight 2 full Medivacs.
Basically they buffed Muta, then gave afterburners to Medivacs to help them escape Muta, then Medivacs became WAY too fast to the point of being broken (even MarineKing agrees) so they had to give Protoss something to help defend against it.
It's really stupid. But if you take away Warpgate and/or Photon Overcharge and don't remove the Afterburners, it's going to be really really ugly for Protoss. Terran and Zerg don't have Warp gates and PO and can defend these super fast medivacs just fine. Zerg has creep spread, overlord spotters, and the fastest units both on ground and air--I wonder why they don't have a problem. Terran don't need PO because they produce siege tanks--which are cheap, mobile, AOE nexus cannons that can attack as much as defend. So much so that terran drops sometimes have to attack structures and depots because well placed tanks can prevent effective scv harass. But sure, if you made zealots as fast as speedlings on creep or had cheap mobile nexus cannons, I can see how warp-ins are not needed to stop terran drop play.
Or if they had the best static defense in the game
No one is saying totally remove WG. It should be reworked so that there's a choice between gate way vs warp gate.
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On April 25 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:
Keep in mind though that afterburners on the Medivacs significantly increase the defensive requirements of the Protoss as he's trying to take a 3rd base, relative to WoL.
It used to be that you could have a few Stalkers to deter drops. So you only needed a couple as long as you knew the Medivac was coming. Now they can just boost in and drop anyway, so instead of a few Stalkers, you actually need to have a force that can fight 2 full Medivacs.
Basically they buffed Muta, then gave afterburners to Medivacs to help them escape Muta, then Medivacs became WAY too fast to the point of being broken (even MarineKing agrees) so they had to give Protoss something to help defend against it.
It's really stupid. But if you take away Warpgate and/or Photon Overcharge and don't remove the Afterburners, it's going to be really really ugly for Protoss.
I try to post in this thread as little as possible although I skim it from time to time. But, what you've said here is factually incorrect. Photon Overcharge (previously Purifier Beam) was part of the MSC's abilities from almost the beginning of the HOTS beta. The current iteration of PO was more or less settled in the 5th Beta balance patch. Muta speed and Muta regen were in the 8th and 9th Beta balance patches. Emergency Thrusters (later called Ignite Afterburners) were also at around this time. So, you have the order backwards. However, we don't know the causal chain by which the design team made these decisions, so it's pointless to speculate that X led to Y and to Z and so on. It could quite easily be none of these.
Personally, I think the MSC the best addition to Protoss in a long time. IMO a lot of the trouble is that people compare Protoss now with what they were for most of WOL, where our tech tree was largely unrealised or not fully developed, and make that the baseline. Protoss has changed in HOTS and some Terran struggle with the realisation and are slow to adapt. It's not like WOL where a missed FF on the ramp to a stim timing was usually gg or where it was mostly turtle to Colossus and wait for drops. The development and exploration of Protoss play in HOTS is good for Protoss and for SC2 as a whole.
Are there problems? Heck yes. The constriction of Terran strategies as a payoff for the explosion of Protoss strategies has been excessive - at least thus far. PO should not be 60 seconds. IMO, this should be revisited in HOTS whatever the effect it may have on PvP. If not, it certainly must be looked at for LOTV. Time Warp should be an upgrade and not immediately accessible by the MSC straight off the bat. Otherwise, to be honest, I see little imbalanced with Protoss.
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On April 25 2014 13:43 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:
Keep in mind though that afterburners on the Medivacs significantly increase the defensive requirements of the Protoss as he's trying to take a 3rd base, relative to WoL.
It used to be that you could have a few Stalkers to deter drops. So you only needed a couple as long as you knew the Medivac was coming. Now they can just boost in and drop anyway, so instead of a few Stalkers, you actually need to have a force that can fight 2 full Medivacs.
Basically they buffed Muta, then gave afterburners to Medivacs to help them escape Muta, then Medivacs became WAY too fast to the point of being broken (even MarineKing agrees) so they had to give Protoss something to help defend against it.
It's really stupid. But if you take away Warpgate and/or Photon Overcharge and don't remove the Afterburners, it's going to be really really ugly for Protoss. Terran and Zerg don't have Warp gates and PO and can defend these super fast medivacs just fine.
This might actually be the stupidest thing I've ever seen written in this forum.
User was warned for this post
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On April 25 2014 15:38 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 13:43 Chaggi wrote:On April 25 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:
Keep in mind though that afterburners on the Medivacs significantly increase the defensive requirements of the Protoss as he's trying to take a 3rd base, relative to WoL.
It used to be that you could have a few Stalkers to deter drops. So you only needed a couple as long as you knew the Medivac was coming. Now they can just boost in and drop anyway, so instead of a few Stalkers, you actually need to have a force that can fight 2 full Medivacs.
Basically they buffed Muta, then gave afterburners to Medivacs to help them escape Muta, then Medivacs became WAY too fast to the point of being broken (even MarineKing agrees) so they had to give Protoss something to help defend against it.
It's really stupid. But if you take away Warpgate and/or Photon Overcharge and don't remove the Afterburners, it's going to be really really ugly for Protoss. Terran and Zerg don't have Warp gates and PO and can defend these super fast medivacs just fine. This might actually be the stupidest thing I've ever seen written in this forum.
You don't read your posts before you post them? That explains a lot.
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On April 25 2014 15:38 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 13:43 Chaggi wrote:On April 25 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:
Keep in mind though that afterburners on the Medivacs significantly increase the defensive requirements of the Protoss as he's trying to take a 3rd base, relative to WoL.
It used to be that you could have a few Stalkers to deter drops. So you only needed a couple as long as you knew the Medivac was coming. Now they can just boost in and drop anyway, so instead of a few Stalkers, you actually need to have a force that can fight 2 full Medivacs.
Basically they buffed Muta, then gave afterburners to Medivacs to help them escape Muta, then Medivacs became WAY too fast to the point of being broken (even MarineKing agrees) so they had to give Protoss something to help defend against it.
It's really stupid. But if you take away Warpgate and/or Photon Overcharge and don't remove the Afterburners, it's going to be really really ugly for Protoss. Terran and Zerg don't have Warp gates and PO and can defend these super fast medivacs just fine. This might actually be the stupidest thing I've ever seen written in this forum.
That's saying something, because presumably you've read every single post you've written.
HOTS made HT openings viable, which means Feedback happens to Medivacs. Now imagine HT openings vs. Medivacs as they used to be. Suddenly a whole bunch of drops that barely work don't work anymore, because the Protoss has an extra 1-2 seconds to spot it on his minimap and react.
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On April 25 2014 14:56 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 14:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 25 2014 13:43 Chaggi wrote:On April 25 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:
Keep in mind though that afterburners on the Medivacs significantly increase the defensive requirements of the Protoss as he's trying to take a 3rd base, relative to WoL.
It used to be that you could have a few Stalkers to deter drops. So you only needed a couple as long as you knew the Medivac was coming. Now they can just boost in and drop anyway, so instead of a few Stalkers, you actually need to have a force that can fight 2 full Medivacs.
Basically they buffed Muta, then gave afterburners to Medivacs to help them escape Muta, then Medivacs became WAY too fast to the point of being broken (even MarineKing agrees) so they had to give Protoss something to help defend against it.
It's really stupid. But if you take away Warpgate and/or Photon Overcharge and don't remove the Afterburners, it's going to be really really ugly for Protoss. Terran and Zerg don't have Warp gates and PO and can defend these super fast medivacs just fine. Zerg has creep spread, overlord spotters, and the fastest units both on ground and air--I wonder why they don't have a problem. Terran don't need PO because they produce siege tanks--which are cheap, mobile, AOE nexus cannons that can attack as much as defend. So much so that terran drops sometimes have to attack structures and depots because well placed tanks can prevent effective scv harass. But sure, if you made zealots as fast as speedlings on creep or had cheap mobile nexus cannons, I can see how warp-ins are not needed to stop terran drop play. Or if they had the best static defense in the game No one is saying totally remove WG. It should be reworked so that there's a choice between gate way vs warp gate.
I don't disagree. I was merely pointing out the flaw of using T and Z as examples of not needing warp-in for defense. In truth, the smoothest way for "fixing" warp in problems is that you remove the "power field" requirement and instead require a different building/s that has a warp in point. Power field makes it so its only 100 mins to "transport" troops. Flavor would be cooler if you actually had to build gateway entry points or something more cooler sounding.
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You guys realize that the original suggestion that sparked all this discussion means to keep warp-in untouched defensively. The increase in cooldown based on the distance of warp-in from the nearest Warpgate (or Nexus) would mean that.
Ps. Nexus is my addition so that Protoss expansions still get the usual defensive capability of warp-ins.
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Everyone seems to agree that Planetary Overcharge is needed to help keep PvP less volatile, but shuts down early aggression from Terran and to an extent, Zerg. Wouldn't a rather simple solution to this problem be to make it so that the damage done is reduced but then do increased shield damage? This would mean that Protoss units would receive more or less the same damage as before whereas Protoss would still need units to help fend off early attacks from Terran/Zerg. What would be the downside to this idea?
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On April 25 2014 14:57 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:
Keep in mind though that afterburners on the Medivacs significantly increase the defensive requirements of the Protoss as he's trying to take a 3rd base, relative to WoL.
It used to be that you could have a few Stalkers to deter drops. So you only needed a couple as long as you knew the Medivac was coming. Now they can just boost in and drop anyway, so instead of a few Stalkers, you actually need to have a force that can fight 2 full Medivacs.
Basically they buffed Muta, then gave afterburners to Medivacs to help them escape Muta, then Medivacs became WAY too fast to the point of being broken (even MarineKing agrees) so they had to give Protoss something to help defend against it.
It's really stupid. But if you take away Warpgate and/or Photon Overcharge and don't remove the Afterburners, it's going to be really really ugly for Protoss. I try to post in this thread as little as possible although I skim it from time to time. But, what you've said here is factually incorrect. Photon Overcharge (previously Purifier Beam) was part of the MSC's abilities from almost the beginning of the HOTS beta. The current iteration of PO was more or less settled in the 5th Beta balance patch. Muta speed and Muta regen were in the 8th and 9th Beta balance patches. Emergency Thrusters (later called Ignite Afterburners) were also at around this time. So, you have the order backwards. However, we don't know the causal chain by which the design team made these decisions, so it's pointless to speculate that X led to Y and to Z and so on. It could quite easily be none of these. Personally, I think the MSC the best addition to Protoss in a long time. IMO a lot of the trouble is that people compare Protoss now with what they were for most of WOL, where our tech tree was largely unrealised or not fully developed, and make that the baseline. Protoss has changed in HOTS and some Terran struggle with the realisation and are slow to adapt. It's not like WOL where a missed FF on the ramp to a stim timing was usually gg or where it was mostly turtle to Colossus and wait for drops. The development and exploration of Protoss play in HOTS is good for Protoss and for SC2 as a whole. Are there problems? Heck yes. The constriction of Terran strategies as a payoff for the explosion of Protoss strategies has been excessive - at least thus far. PO should not be 60 seconds. IMO, this should be revisited in HOTS whatever the effect it may have on PvP. If not, it certainly must be looked at for LOTV. Time Warp should be an upgrade and not immediately accessible by the MSC straight off the bat. Otherwise, to be honest, I see little imbalanced with Protoss.
Yeh they also buffed Mutalisks due to Widow Mines.
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On April 25 2014 20:46 Goofinator wrote:
Everyone seems to agree that Planetary Overcharge is needed to help keep PvP less volatile, but shuts down early aggression from Terran and to an extent, Zerg. Wouldn't a rather simple solution to this problem be to make it so that the damage done is reduced but then do increased shield damage? This would mean that Protoss units would receive more or less the same damage as before whereas Protoss would still need units to help fend off early attacks from Terran/Zerg. What would be the downside to this idea?
PvP is still volatile as fuck. I'm lately not even sure if PO helps PvP, or rather forces players to make much more severe tech choices off of no units. The builds currently look to me like "nothing-->DT/blink/oracle" with the rare occurances of 3gates and robotics first. Expansion builds are still nonexistant. Logically, since the PO only helps once the expo is done and that is not going to happen to begin with.
But I don't think PO should be nerfed damagewise... It's at a pretty great spot in that regard imo, range, duration and energy cost could be considered, but I don't see why this should be done.
Protoss allins and extremely strong/frustrating lategame deathballs are the biggest concerns imo, and I don't see "simple" solutions to most of them. Apart from making blink research requiring a forge and cutting the ebay requirement for turrets, to at least deal with the strongest TvP rushes, without invalidating aggressive play.
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After watching some recent games when terran just straight up loses to unspotted stuff I wonder if terran should get improved scouting for Lotv. For example, MMA not being able to scout DTs yesterday, Maru losing to 2 base 1-1 roach timing today are just most recent examples.
I mean, reapers are only good for very limited amount of time and are also very map dependent. Scan is basically luck based because all races can place buildings out of obvious scan locations and hide their tech very well.
I would love to see some kind of flying terran scout unit, something that can take over once reapers stop being effective...
What do you guys think?
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EPT
