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On April 25 2014 00:03 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 22:23 Salient wrote:On April 24 2014 04:13 Cloak wrote:
When these micro discussions and Protoss complaints crop up, it always just shows tremendous race bias. Why is Blink unfun, but stim Marines are? What exactly is fun about your opposing army being twice as fast as you and twice as much DPS? Where are these micro situations suddenly gained? Micro is made despite Marines, not because of them. Banelings force epic splitting, but there's nothing intrinsic about the Marine that makes their splitting more fun or anything, aside from the 0 damage point delay. It's why Hydras are garbage for micro because their damage point isn't unrealistically instant. The debate over whether or not Warpgate should be on equal terms with Gateway is another oft talked about red herring. At this point in the development it's not gonna happen. Why doesn't Inject Larva have cons? Why doesn't Medivac boost have cons? Why doesn't a Mule have cons? There's plenty of stuff in this game that doesn't force a sophie's choice. The Warpgate haters are really saying "I don't like Protoss aggression keeping me in check, I want my Stim timing to be stronger," or they don't like the idea that their easily acquired map control by virtue of their naturally stronger and faster basic units can be undermined intermittently. I agree 100%. Me too. The risk of an all-in coming their way is the only thing stopping Terran from ROFLstomping Protoss at the 10-12 minute mark. Econ needs to go into a Reaper, bunker(s), and potentially some turrets. In TvZ, the Zerg can econ up and then explode into unit production as the parade push begins because of the larva/hatchery mechanic. The only units Protoss can produce quickly are Gateway units and everything else takes forever in terms of build time and infrastructure. IMO stim DOES reduce microability. Protoss basically can't ever run from a fight (only Blink Stalkers can). I think people underestimate the strength, mobility, and space controlling potential of stim bio vs. gateway units. Having the ability to warp in anywhere on the map is effectively what keeps the Terran in check. Without defensive warpins to counter drops or offensive warpins to threaten the Terran with, the game would be very difficult for Protoss. If anyone has ever seen a game where Bomber is allowed to go CC first and not allined, you'll know what I'm talking about.
Both forcefields and blink allow protoss to get away... Oh I forgot. Protoss no longer have to make more than 2 sentries because they have MsC...
Although I agree that terrans would have an advantage at the 10-12 minutes mark if Protoss didn't have all-ins available. It is now tilted too far to the protoss side where if terrans can't drop protoss and pull them out of position, the terran is basically behind from the 10 minute on wards. It is telling that a lot of protoss take their thirds at the same time as the terrans now.
And protoss had all-ins in WoL. Except they were actually all-ins. Not builds that can kill as well as go into a macro game if you see the terran being well prepared.
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On April 25 2014 00:20 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 06:01 DinoMight wrote:
What's all the fuss about Warpgate/Gateways?
Protoss has been both very under and overpowered since the beta came out (results wise) and pretty much the only thing that HASN'T changed has been the Warpgate mechanic. Is it just an argument of change for change's sake?
Game looks fine to me at the moment. There's no glaring 1/1/1 or Blink Allin or Brood Lord Infestor issue present and at least since the last round of patches it seems like the better player is winning most of the time. Didn't you say the exact same thing pre MsC sight range nerf and WM buff vs protoss? Funny that you finally acknowledge Blink all-in was an issue when every time it was bought up previous, you always pointed out how all the pro terrans were defending wrong
So now you're going to criticize me for acknowledging that I was wrong?
Meanwhile every Terran in here has been whining about TvP being impossible since the dawn of time, regardless of win percentages.
From the most recent games (like I said, since the last round of patches and w/ new maps) you have to admit Terran is doing better. You'd be lying to yourself not to.
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On April 25 2014 00:03 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 22:23 Salient wrote:On April 24 2014 04:13 Cloak wrote:
When these micro discussions and Protoss complaints crop up, it always just shows tremendous race bias. Why is Blink unfun, but stim Marines are? What exactly is fun about your opposing army being twice as fast as you and twice as much DPS? Where are these micro situations suddenly gained? Micro is made despite Marines, not because of them. Banelings force epic splitting, but there's nothing intrinsic about the Marine that makes their splitting more fun or anything, aside from the 0 damage point delay. It's why Hydras are garbage for micro because their damage point isn't unrealistically instant. The debate over whether or not Warpgate should be on equal terms with Gateway is another oft talked about red herring. At this point in the development it's not gonna happen. Why doesn't Inject Larva have cons? Why doesn't Medivac boost have cons? Why doesn't a Mule have cons? There's plenty of stuff in this game that doesn't force a sophie's choice. The Warpgate haters are really saying "I don't like Protoss aggression keeping me in check, I want my Stim timing to be stronger," or they don't like the idea that their easily acquired map control by virtue of their naturally stronger and faster basic units can be undermined intermittently. I agree 100%. Me too. The risk of an all-in coming their way is the only thing stopping Terran from ROFLstomping Protoss at the 10-12 minute mark. Econ needs to go into a Reaper, bunker(s), and potentially some turrets. In TvZ, the Zerg can econ up and then explode into unit production as the parade push begins because of the larva/hatchery mechanic. The only units Protoss can produce quickly are Gateway units and everything else takes forever in terms of build time and infrastructure. IMO stim DOES reduce microability. Protoss basically can't ever run from a fight (only Blink Stalkers can). I think people underestimate the strength, mobility, and space controlling potential of stim bio vs. gateway units. Having the ability to warp in anywhere on the map is effectively what keeps the Terran in check. Without defensive warpins to counter drops or offensive warpins to threaten the Terran with, the game would be very difficult for Protoss. If anyone has ever seen a game where Bomber is allowed to go CC first and not allined, you'll know what I'm talking about.
First of all, running away is not really what I characterise of micro. Stuff like whether you decide to engage/attack or retreat are more related to decisionmaking. Micro is what happens during the battle.
Now, you have a point that toss generally has a difficult time retreating. But that's actually not that much related to Stim it self, but more to the general slowness of Robotics units + Concussive (which indeed also functions as a microkiller (and a retreatkiller too a large extent)- I personally find it completley unnecesary against ranged units, but a necceasry "evil" against Chargelots).
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On April 25 2014 00:36 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 00:03 DinoMight wrote:On April 24 2014 22:23 Salient wrote:On April 24 2014 04:13 Cloak wrote:
When these micro discussions and Protoss complaints crop up, it always just shows tremendous race bias. Why is Blink unfun, but stim Marines are? What exactly is fun about your opposing army being twice as fast as you and twice as much DPS? Where are these micro situations suddenly gained? Micro is made despite Marines, not because of them. Banelings force epic splitting, but there's nothing intrinsic about the Marine that makes their splitting more fun or anything, aside from the 0 damage point delay. It's why Hydras are garbage for micro because their damage point isn't unrealistically instant. The debate over whether or not Warpgate should be on equal terms with Gateway is another oft talked about red herring. At this point in the development it's not gonna happen. Why doesn't Inject Larva have cons? Why doesn't Medivac boost have cons? Why doesn't a Mule have cons? There's plenty of stuff in this game that doesn't force a sophie's choice. The Warpgate haters are really saying "I don't like Protoss aggression keeping me in check, I want my Stim timing to be stronger," or they don't like the idea that their easily acquired map control by virtue of their naturally stronger and faster basic units can be undermined intermittently. I agree 100%. Me too. The risk of an all-in coming their way is the only thing stopping Terran from ROFLstomping Protoss at the 10-12 minute mark. Econ needs to go into a Reaper, bunker(s), and potentially some turrets. In TvZ, the Zerg can econ up and then explode into unit production as the parade push begins because of the larva/hatchery mechanic. The only units Protoss can produce quickly are Gateway units and everything else takes forever in terms of build time and infrastructure. IMO stim DOES reduce microability. Protoss basically can't ever run from a fight (only Blink Stalkers can). I think people underestimate the strength, mobility, and space controlling potential of stim bio vs. gateway units. Having the ability to warp in anywhere on the map is effectively what keeps the Terran in check. Without defensive warpins to counter drops or offensive warpins to threaten the Terran with, the game would be very difficult for Protoss. If anyone has ever seen a game where Bomber is allowed to go CC first and not allined, you'll know what I'm talking about. First of all, running away is not really what I characterise of micro. Stuff like whether you decide to engage/attack or retreat are more related to decisionmaking. Micro is what happens during the battle. Now, you have a point that toss generally has a difficult time retreating. But that's actually not that much related to Stim it self, but more to the general slowness of Robotics units + Concussive (which indeed also functions as a microkiller (and a retreatkiller too a large extent)- I personally find it completley unnecesary against ranged units, but a necceasry "evil" against Chargelots).
I mean, just discussing micro and "anti-micro" alot of the Terrans in this thread bring up how you can't micro against Blink Stalkers and you can't micro against Time Warp. This is true. But you also can't micro against Stim/Concussive either.
I think what both sides need to do is realize that those abilities exist and position your units in a way that they're not compromised. For Protoss that means not putting yourself in a situation where you need to run away from Stim bio (get Forcefields, use Time Warp to escape, simply don't move out unless you are ready to fight, etc.) And for Terran, it means, spreading your units out so Time Warp doesn't catch all of them and trying to force a fight in a spot where the Stalkers have no easy place to Blink back into.
I don't think "micro" should be the answer to everything. Somtimes the best decision you can make in a match is not to take a fight.
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On April 25 2014 00:49 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 00:36 Hider wrote:On April 25 2014 00:03 DinoMight wrote:On April 24 2014 22:23 Salient wrote:On April 24 2014 04:13 Cloak wrote:
When these micro discussions and Protoss complaints crop up, it always just shows tremendous race bias. Why is Blink unfun, but stim Marines are? What exactly is fun about your opposing army being twice as fast as you and twice as much DPS? Where are these micro situations suddenly gained? Micro is made despite Marines, not because of them. Banelings force epic splitting, but there's nothing intrinsic about the Marine that makes their splitting more fun or anything, aside from the 0 damage point delay. It's why Hydras are garbage for micro because their damage point isn't unrealistically instant. The debate over whether or not Warpgate should be on equal terms with Gateway is another oft talked about red herring. At this point in the development it's not gonna happen. Why doesn't Inject Larva have cons? Why doesn't Medivac boost have cons? Why doesn't a Mule have cons? There's plenty of stuff in this game that doesn't force a sophie's choice. The Warpgate haters are really saying "I don't like Protoss aggression keeping me in check, I want my Stim timing to be stronger," or they don't like the idea that their easily acquired map control by virtue of their naturally stronger and faster basic units can be undermined intermittently. I agree 100%. Me too. The risk of an all-in coming their way is the only thing stopping Terran from ROFLstomping Protoss at the 10-12 minute mark. Econ needs to go into a Reaper, bunker(s), and potentially some turrets. In TvZ, the Zerg can econ up and then explode into unit production as the parade push begins because of the larva/hatchery mechanic. The only units Protoss can produce quickly are Gateway units and everything else takes forever in terms of build time and infrastructure. IMO stim DOES reduce microability. Protoss basically can't ever run from a fight (only Blink Stalkers can). I think people underestimate the strength, mobility, and space controlling potential of stim bio vs. gateway units. Having the ability to warp in anywhere on the map is effectively what keeps the Terran in check. Without defensive warpins to counter drops or offensive warpins to threaten the Terran with, the game would be very difficult for Protoss. If anyone has ever seen a game where Bomber is allowed to go CC first and not allined, you'll know what I'm talking about. First of all, running away is not really what I characterise of micro. Stuff like whether you decide to engage/attack or retreat are more related to decisionmaking. Micro is what happens during the battle. Now, you have a point that toss generally has a difficult time retreating. But that's actually not that much related to Stim it self, but more to the general slowness of Robotics units + Concussive (which indeed also functions as a microkiller (and a retreatkiller too a large extent)- I personally find it completley unnecesary against ranged units, but a necceasry "evil" against Chargelots). I mean, just discussing micro and "anti-micro" alot of the Terrans in this thread bring up how you can't micro against Blink Stalkers and you can't micro against Time Warp. This is true. But you also can't micro against Stim/Concussive either. I think what both sides need to do is realize that those abilities exist and position your units in a way that they're not compromised. For Protoss that means not putting yourself in a situation where you need to run away from Stim bio (get Forcefields, use Time Warp to escape, simply don't move out unless you are ready to fight, etc.) And for Terran, it means, spreading your units out so Time Warp doesn't catch all of them and trying to force a fight in a spot where the Stalkers have no easy place to Blink back into. I don't think "micro" should be the answer to everything. Somtimes the best decision you can make in a match is not to take a fight.
okay but blink comes at a time before stim
does stim ever come at a time where you don't have FF or TW? (the answer is no, it doesn't)
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On April 25 2014 00:55 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 00:49 DinoMight wrote:On April 25 2014 00:36 Hider wrote:On April 25 2014 00:03 DinoMight wrote:On April 24 2014 22:23 Salient wrote:On April 24 2014 04:13 Cloak wrote:
When these micro discussions and Protoss complaints crop up, it always just shows tremendous race bias. Why is Blink unfun, but stim Marines are? What exactly is fun about your opposing army being twice as fast as you and twice as much DPS? Where are these micro situations suddenly gained? Micro is made despite Marines, not because of them. Banelings force epic splitting, but there's nothing intrinsic about the Marine that makes their splitting more fun or anything, aside from the 0 damage point delay. It's why Hydras are garbage for micro because their damage point isn't unrealistically instant. The debate over whether or not Warpgate should be on equal terms with Gateway is another oft talked about red herring. At this point in the development it's not gonna happen. Why doesn't Inject Larva have cons? Why doesn't Medivac boost have cons? Why doesn't a Mule have cons? There's plenty of stuff in this game that doesn't force a sophie's choice. The Warpgate haters are really saying "I don't like Protoss aggression keeping me in check, I want my Stim timing to be stronger," or they don't like the idea that their easily acquired map control by virtue of their naturally stronger and faster basic units can be undermined intermittently. I agree 100%. Me too. The risk of an all-in coming their way is the only thing stopping Terran from ROFLstomping Protoss at the 10-12 minute mark. Econ needs to go into a Reaper, bunker(s), and potentially some turrets. In TvZ, the Zerg can econ up and then explode into unit production as the parade push begins because of the larva/hatchery mechanic. The only units Protoss can produce quickly are Gateway units and everything else takes forever in terms of build time and infrastructure. IMO stim DOES reduce microability. Protoss basically can't ever run from a fight (only Blink Stalkers can). I think people underestimate the strength, mobility, and space controlling potential of stim bio vs. gateway units. Having the ability to warp in anywhere on the map is effectively what keeps the Terran in check. Without defensive warpins to counter drops or offensive warpins to threaten the Terran with, the game would be very difficult for Protoss. If anyone has ever seen a game where Bomber is allowed to go CC first and not allined, you'll know what I'm talking about. First of all, running away is not really what I characterise of micro. Stuff like whether you decide to engage/attack or retreat are more related to decisionmaking. Micro is what happens during the battle. Now, you have a point that toss generally has a difficult time retreating. But that's actually not that much related to Stim it self, but more to the general slowness of Robotics units + Concussive (which indeed also functions as a microkiller (and a retreatkiller too a large extent)- I personally find it completley unnecesary against ranged units, but a necceasry "evil" against Chargelots). I mean, just discussing micro and "anti-micro" alot of the Terrans in this thread bring up how you can't micro against Blink Stalkers and you can't micro against Time Warp. This is true. But you also can't micro against Stim/Concussive either. I think what both sides need to do is realize that those abilities exist and position your units in a way that they're not compromised. For Protoss that means not putting yourself in a situation where you need to run away from Stim bio (get Forcefields, use Time Warp to escape, simply don't move out unless you are ready to fight, etc.) And for Terran, it means, spreading your units out so Time Warp doesn't catch all of them and trying to force a fight in a spot where the Stalkers have no easy place to Blink back into. I don't think "micro" should be the answer to everything. Somtimes the best decision you can make in a match is not to take a fight. okay but blink comes at a time before stim does stim ever come at a time where you don't have FF or TW? (the answer is no, it doesn't)
It's more complicated than that. FF and TW are finite. You can cast exactly 2 Time Warps ever. And forcefields are not exactly cheap.. they require sentries which you generally don't want to produce many of.
Stim on the other hand is basically free (provided you have Medivacs) and is on every single Terran bio unit. It doesn't really cost you anything additional, since you want to stim anyway for the damage output. As the army sizes get bigger that becomes more of a factor. Suddenly instead of 2-3 sentries, you need 10 sentries just to be able to FF the Terran army away and escape.
That stops working...
So.. the whole point of this was to discuss warpgate. I think the way that gateway units are currently designed, Warpgate is integral to the matchup. Terran mobility and ability to punish lack of Protoss mobility is very strong. It needs to be balanced out somehow, and the way this is done in SC2 is by having the warpgate mechanic.
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You won't have medivacs against blink tho, you you stim, lose health, stim, lose health, then die.
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On April 25 2014 01:32 Faust852 wrote:
You won't have medivacs against blink tho, you you stim, lose health, stim, lose health, then die.
It takes 300 gas to get a medivac. 425 to get Stim and Medivac
It takes 350 gas to get 1 blink stalker, 450 to get 3 blink stalkers.
2 stalkers costs 250/100
3 Marines and 1 medivac costs 250/100
Math sucks sometimes.
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On April 25 2014 01:48 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 01:32 Faust852 wrote:
You won't have medivacs against blink tho, you you stim, lose health, stim, lose health, then die. It takes 300 gas to get a medivac. 425 to get Stim and Medivac It takes 350 gas to get 1 blink stalker, 450 to get 3 blink stalkers. 2 stalkers costs 250/100 3 Marines and 1 medivac costs 250/100 Math sucks sometimes.
Those 2 Stalkers have 6.9x 2 = 13.8 DPS. minus 9 DPS (The medivac) and you're left with 4.8 DPS
The 3 marines after stim have 3x10.5 = 31.5 DPS
If you add another marine for 50 minerals (Protoss can make nothing for 50 minerals) it goes up to 42 DPS
Anyone who has played StarCraft knows how this scales, so I'm guessing the math is irrelevant.
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On April 25 2014 02:10 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 01:48 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 25 2014 01:32 Faust852 wrote:
You won't have medivacs against blink tho, you you stim, lose health, stim, lose health, then die. It takes 300 gas to get a medivac. 425 to get Stim and Medivac It takes 350 gas to get 1 blink stalker, 450 to get 3 blink stalkers. 2 stalkers costs 250/100 3 Marines and 1 medivac costs 250/100 Math sucks sometimes. Those 2 Stalkers have 6.9x 2 = 13.8 DPS. minus 9 DPS (The medivac) and you're left with 4.8 DPS The 3 marines after stim have 3x10.5 = 31.5 DPS If you add another marine for 50 minerals (Protoss can make nothing for 50 minerals) it goes up to 42 DPS Anyone who has played StarCraft knows how this scales, so I'm guessing the math is irrelevant.
I'm just suggesting that it should be impressive for a player to win using units with less DPS on the power of unit control alone.
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On April 25 2014 01:14 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 00:55 Chaggi wrote:On April 25 2014 00:49 DinoMight wrote:On April 25 2014 00:36 Hider wrote:On April 25 2014 00:03 DinoMight wrote:On April 24 2014 22:23 Salient wrote:On April 24 2014 04:13 Cloak wrote:
When these micro discussions and Protoss complaints crop up, it always just shows tremendous race bias. Why is Blink unfun, but stim Marines are? What exactly is fun about your opposing army being twice as fast as you and twice as much DPS? Where are these micro situations suddenly gained? Micro is made despite Marines, not because of them. Banelings force epic splitting, but there's nothing intrinsic about the Marine that makes their splitting more fun or anything, aside from the 0 damage point delay. It's why Hydras are garbage for micro because their damage point isn't unrealistically instant. The debate over whether or not Warpgate should be on equal terms with Gateway is another oft talked about red herring. At this point in the development it's not gonna happen. Why doesn't Inject Larva have cons? Why doesn't Medivac boost have cons? Why doesn't a Mule have cons? There's plenty of stuff in this game that doesn't force a sophie's choice. The Warpgate haters are really saying "I don't like Protoss aggression keeping me in check, I want my Stim timing to be stronger," or they don't like the idea that their easily acquired map control by virtue of their naturally stronger and faster basic units can be undermined intermittently. I agree 100%. Me too. The risk of an all-in coming their way is the only thing stopping Terran from ROFLstomping Protoss at the 10-12 minute mark. Econ needs to go into a Reaper, bunker(s), and potentially some turrets. In TvZ, the Zerg can econ up and then explode into unit production as the parade push begins because of the larva/hatchery mechanic. The only units Protoss can produce quickly are Gateway units and everything else takes forever in terms of build time and infrastructure. IMO stim DOES reduce microability. Protoss basically can't ever run from a fight (only Blink Stalkers can). I think people underestimate the strength, mobility, and space controlling potential of stim bio vs. gateway units. Having the ability to warp in anywhere on the map is effectively what keeps the Terran in check. Without defensive warpins to counter drops or offensive warpins to threaten the Terran with, the game would be very difficult for Protoss. If anyone has ever seen a game where Bomber is allowed to go CC first and not allined, you'll know what I'm talking about. First of all, running away is not really what I characterise of micro. Stuff like whether you decide to engage/attack or retreat are more related to decisionmaking. Micro is what happens during the battle. Now, you have a point that toss generally has a difficult time retreating. But that's actually not that much related to Stim it self, but more to the general slowness of Robotics units + Concussive (which indeed also functions as a microkiller (and a retreatkiller too a large extent)- I personally find it completley unnecesary against ranged units, but a necceasry "evil" against Chargelots). I mean, just discussing micro and "anti-micro" alot of the Terrans in this thread bring up how you can't micro against Blink Stalkers and you can't micro against Time Warp. This is true. But you also can't micro against Stim/Concussive either. I think what both sides need to do is realize that those abilities exist and position your units in a way that they're not compromised. For Protoss that means not putting yourself in a situation where you need to run away from Stim bio (get Forcefields, use Time Warp to escape, simply don't move out unless you are ready to fight, etc.) And for Terran, it means, spreading your units out so Time Warp doesn't catch all of them and trying to force a fight in a spot where the Stalkers have no easy place to Blink back into. I don't think "micro" should be the answer to everything. Somtimes the best decision you can make in a match is not to take a fight. okay but blink comes at a time before stim does stim ever come at a time where you don't have FF or TW? (the answer is no, it doesn't) It's more complicated than that. FF and TW are finite. You can cast exactly 2 Time Warps ever. And forcefields are not exactly cheap.. they require sentries which you generally don't want to produce many of. Stim on the other hand is basically free (provided you have Medivacs) and is on every single Terran bio unit. It doesn't really cost you anything additional, since you want to stim anyway for the damage output. As the army sizes get bigger that becomes more of a factor. Suddenly instead of 2-3 sentries, you need 10 sentries just to be able to FF the Terran army away and escape. That stops working... So.. the whole point of this was to discuss warpgate. I think the way that gateway units are currently designed, Warpgate is integral to the matchup. Terran mobility and ability to punish lack of Protoss mobility is very strong. It needs to be balanced out somehow, and the way this is done in SC2 is by having the warpgate mechanic.
What? You need 10 SENTRIES to escape.... 4 FFs is basically all you need to cut the bio force in half unless you get 180 surrounded.
Your arguement is really flawed. So stim is free because all it takes is Medivacs energy but forcefields isn't free because it takes sentry energy? WHAT?
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On April 25 2014 01:48 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 01:32 Faust852 wrote:
You won't have medivacs against blink tho, you you stim, lose health, stim, lose health, then die. It takes 300 gas to get a medivac. 425 to get Stim and Medivac It takes 350 gas to get 1 blink stalker, 450 to get 3 blink stalkers. 2 stalkers costs 250/100 3 Marines and 1 medivac costs 250/100 Math sucks sometimes.
Except that's not the point. Blink comes a lot earlier than Medivacs. You can't get fast medivacs and a decent army count up. It's one or the other.
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On April 25 2014 02:36 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 01:14 DinoMight wrote:On April 25 2014 00:55 Chaggi wrote:On April 25 2014 00:49 DinoMight wrote:On April 25 2014 00:36 Hider wrote:On April 25 2014 00:03 DinoMight wrote:On April 24 2014 22:23 Salient wrote:On April 24 2014 04:13 Cloak wrote:
When these micro discussions and Protoss complaints crop up, it always just shows tremendous race bias. Why is Blink unfun, but stim Marines are? What exactly is fun about your opposing army being twice as fast as you and twice as much DPS? Where are these micro situations suddenly gained? Micro is made despite Marines, not because of them. Banelings force epic splitting, but there's nothing intrinsic about the Marine that makes their splitting more fun or anything, aside from the 0 damage point delay. It's why Hydras are garbage for micro because their damage point isn't unrealistically instant. The debate over whether or not Warpgate should be on equal terms with Gateway is another oft talked about red herring. At this point in the development it's not gonna happen. Why doesn't Inject Larva have cons? Why doesn't Medivac boost have cons? Why doesn't a Mule have cons? There's plenty of stuff in this game that doesn't force a sophie's choice. The Warpgate haters are really saying "I don't like Protoss aggression keeping me in check, I want my Stim timing to be stronger," or they don't like the idea that their easily acquired map control by virtue of their naturally stronger and faster basic units can be undermined intermittently. I agree 100%. Me too. The risk of an all-in coming their way is the only thing stopping Terran from ROFLstomping Protoss at the 10-12 minute mark. Econ needs to go into a Reaper, bunker(s), and potentially some turrets. In TvZ, the Zerg can econ up and then explode into unit production as the parade push begins because of the larva/hatchery mechanic. The only units Protoss can produce quickly are Gateway units and everything else takes forever in terms of build time and infrastructure. IMO stim DOES reduce microability. Protoss basically can't ever run from a fight (only Blink Stalkers can). I think people underestimate the strength, mobility, and space controlling potential of stim bio vs. gateway units. Having the ability to warp in anywhere on the map is effectively what keeps the Terran in check. Without defensive warpins to counter drops or offensive warpins to threaten the Terran with, the game would be very difficult for Protoss. If anyone has ever seen a game where Bomber is allowed to go CC first and not allined, you'll know what I'm talking about. First of all, running away is not really what I characterise of micro. Stuff like whether you decide to engage/attack or retreat are more related to decisionmaking. Micro is what happens during the battle. Now, you have a point that toss generally has a difficult time retreating. But that's actually not that much related to Stim it self, but more to the general slowness of Robotics units + Concussive (which indeed also functions as a microkiller (and a retreatkiller too a large extent)- I personally find it completley unnecesary against ranged units, but a necceasry "evil" against Chargelots). I mean, just discussing micro and "anti-micro" alot of the Terrans in this thread bring up how you can't micro against Blink Stalkers and you can't micro against Time Warp. This is true. But you also can't micro against Stim/Concussive either. I think what both sides need to do is realize that those abilities exist and position your units in a way that they're not compromised. For Protoss that means not putting yourself in a situation where you need to run away from Stim bio (get Forcefields, use Time Warp to escape, simply don't move out unless you are ready to fight, etc.) And for Terran, it means, spreading your units out so Time Warp doesn't catch all of them and trying to force a fight in a spot where the Stalkers have no easy place to Blink back into. I don't think "micro" should be the answer to everything. Somtimes the best decision you can make in a match is not to take a fight. okay but blink comes at a time before stim does stim ever come at a time where you don't have FF or TW? (the answer is no, it doesn't) It's more complicated than that. FF and TW are finite. You can cast exactly 2 Time Warps ever. And forcefields are not exactly cheap.. they require sentries which you generally don't want to produce many of. Stim on the other hand is basically free (provided you have Medivacs) and is on every single Terran bio unit. It doesn't really cost you anything additional, since you want to stim anyway for the damage output. As the army sizes get bigger that becomes more of a factor. Suddenly instead of 2-3 sentries, you need 10 sentries just to be able to FF the Terran army away and escape. That stops working... So.. the whole point of this was to discuss warpgate. I think the way that gateway units are currently designed, Warpgate is integral to the matchup. Terran mobility and ability to punish lack of Protoss mobility is very strong. It needs to be balanced out somehow, and the way this is done in SC2 is by having the warpgate mechanic. What? You need 10 SENTRIES to escape.... 4 FFs is basically all you need to cut the bio force in half unless you get 180 surrounded. Your arguement is really flawed. So stim is free because all it takes is Medivacs energy but forcefields isn't free because it takes sentry energy? WHAT?
So admittedly 10 Sentries is an exaggeration. But don't try to simplify this into energy vs. energy.
Stim is "free" because it provides a DPS benefit at the cost of life, which is healed incredibly efficiently by medivacs for energy (which is free). Stim is also on bio units, which you are already making. When the fight is over (assuming you lost/are losing) you boost your Medivacs home and they live.
If Protoss wants forcefields, they must specifically build Sentries, which add very little to the actual fighting. In addition, each forcefield costs 50 energy and it takes a long time to regenerate that energy and use again. Add the fact that sentries can't really escape when you're losing a fight and they become a very expensive one-time use item.
Sure, you can "forcefield off the army" and escape as everyone keeps saying, but practically, that's not true. Maybe the 10 minute push can be FF out for 15-30 seconds and sentries can be used to cover small retreats, but in a macro game the action usually happens in the center of the map, away from choke points, and the area is often too wide for any number of forcefields to provide a valid escape route.
Just think of the last time you saw a Protoss forcefield a big Terran army away and retreat in a pro game....
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On April 25 2014 02:51 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 02:36 vthree wrote:On April 25 2014 01:14 DinoMight wrote:On April 25 2014 00:55 Chaggi wrote:On April 25 2014 00:49 DinoMight wrote:On April 25 2014 00:36 Hider wrote:On April 25 2014 00:03 DinoMight wrote:On April 24 2014 22:23 Salient wrote:On April 24 2014 04:13 Cloak wrote:
When these micro discussions and Protoss complaints crop up, it always just shows tremendous race bias. Why is Blink unfun, but stim Marines are? What exactly is fun about your opposing army being twice as fast as you and twice as much DPS? Where are these micro situations suddenly gained? Micro is made despite Marines, not because of them. Banelings force epic splitting, but there's nothing intrinsic about the Marine that makes their splitting more fun or anything, aside from the 0 damage point delay. It's why Hydras are garbage for micro because their damage point isn't unrealistically instant. The debate over whether or not Warpgate should be on equal terms with Gateway is another oft talked about red herring. At this point in the development it's not gonna happen. Why doesn't Inject Larva have cons? Why doesn't Medivac boost have cons? Why doesn't a Mule have cons? There's plenty of stuff in this game that doesn't force a sophie's choice. The Warpgate haters are really saying "I don't like Protoss aggression keeping me in check, I want my Stim timing to be stronger," or they don't like the idea that their easily acquired map control by virtue of their naturally stronger and faster basic units can be undermined intermittently. I agree 100%. Me too. The risk of an all-in coming their way is the only thing stopping Terran from ROFLstomping Protoss at the 10-12 minute mark. Econ needs to go into a Reaper, bunker(s), and potentially some turrets. In TvZ, the Zerg can econ up and then explode into unit production as the parade push begins because of the larva/hatchery mechanic. The only units Protoss can produce quickly are Gateway units and everything else takes forever in terms of build time and infrastructure. IMO stim DOES reduce microability. Protoss basically can't ever run from a fight (only Blink Stalkers can). I think people underestimate the strength, mobility, and space controlling potential of stim bio vs. gateway units. Having the ability to warp in anywhere on the map is effectively what keeps the Terran in check. Without defensive warpins to counter drops or offensive warpins to threaten the Terran with, the game would be very difficult for Protoss. If anyone has ever seen a game where Bomber is allowed to go CC first and not allined, you'll know what I'm talking about. First of all, running away is not really what I characterise of micro. Stuff like whether you decide to engage/attack or retreat are more related to decisionmaking. Micro is what happens during the battle. Now, you have a point that toss generally has a difficult time retreating. But that's actually not that much related to Stim it self, but more to the general slowness of Robotics units + Concussive (which indeed also functions as a microkiller (and a retreatkiller too a large extent)- I personally find it completley unnecesary against ranged units, but a necceasry "evil" against Chargelots). I mean, just discussing micro and "anti-micro" alot of the Terrans in this thread bring up how you can't micro against Blink Stalkers and you can't micro against Time Warp. This is true. But you also can't micro against Stim/Concussive either. I think what both sides need to do is realize that those abilities exist and position your units in a way that they're not compromised. For Protoss that means not putting yourself in a situation where you need to run away from Stim bio (get Forcefields, use Time Warp to escape, simply don't move out unless you are ready to fight, etc.) And for Terran, it means, spreading your units out so Time Warp doesn't catch all of them and trying to force a fight in a spot where the Stalkers have no easy place to Blink back into. I don't think "micro" should be the answer to everything. Somtimes the best decision you can make in a match is not to take a fight. okay but blink comes at a time before stim does stim ever come at a time where you don't have FF or TW? (the answer is no, it doesn't) It's more complicated than that. FF and TW are finite. You can cast exactly 2 Time Warps ever. And forcefields are not exactly cheap.. they require sentries which you generally don't want to produce many of. Stim on the other hand is basically free (provided you have Medivacs) and is on every single Terran bio unit. It doesn't really cost you anything additional, since you want to stim anyway for the damage output. As the army sizes get bigger that becomes more of a factor. Suddenly instead of 2-3 sentries, you need 10 sentries just to be able to FF the Terran army away and escape. That stops working... So.. the whole point of this was to discuss warpgate. I think the way that gateway units are currently designed, Warpgate is integral to the matchup. Terran mobility and ability to punish lack of Protoss mobility is very strong. It needs to be balanced out somehow, and the way this is done in SC2 is by having the warpgate mechanic. What? You need 10 SENTRIES to escape.... 4 FFs is basically all you need to cut the bio force in half unless you get 180 surrounded. Your arguement is really flawed. So stim is free because all it takes is Medivacs energy but forcefields isn't free because it takes sentry energy? WHAT? So admittedly 10 Sentries is an exaggeration. But don't try to simplify this into energy vs. energy. Stim is "free" because it provides a DPS benefit at the cost of life, which is healed incredibly efficiently by medivacs for energy (which is free). Stim is also on bio units, which you are already making. When the fight is over (assuming you lost/are losing) you boost your Medivacs home and they live. If Protoss wants forcefields, they must specifically build Sentries, which add very little to the actual fighting. In addition, each forcefield costs 50 energy and it takes a long time to regenerate that energy and use again. Add the fact that sentries can't really escape when you're losing a fight and they become a very expensive one-time use item. Sure, you can "forcefield off the army" and escape as everyone keeps saying, but practically, that's not true. Maybe the 10 minute push can be FF out for 15-30 seconds and sentries can be used to cover small retreats, but in a macro game the action usually happens in the center of the map, away from choke points, and the area is often too wide for any number of forcefields to provide a valid escape route. Just think of the last time you saw a Protoss forcefield a big Terran army away and retreat in a pro game....
You can FF a huge army and retreat
You can FF a huge army and make the fight a lot more efficient
You're also forgetting Guardian Shield makes shit a lot more cost effective
And the fact that a great way to scout is with those hallucinated pheonixs
Stim isn't free though. Not even close. You're actively losing energy and you don't get a chance to replenish it especially if you're being aggressive. And that's what you have to be against Protoss. If a Terran and sits back against any race, they're gonna get shit on.
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On April 25 2014 02:55 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 02:51 DinoMight wrote:On April 25 2014 02:36 vthree wrote:On April 25 2014 01:14 DinoMight wrote:On April 25 2014 00:55 Chaggi wrote:On April 25 2014 00:49 DinoMight wrote:On April 25 2014 00:36 Hider wrote:On April 25 2014 00:03 DinoMight wrote:On April 24 2014 22:23 Salient wrote:On April 24 2014 04:13 Cloak wrote:
When these micro discussions and Protoss complaints crop up, it always just shows tremendous race bias. Why is Blink unfun, but stim Marines are? What exactly is fun about your opposing army being twice as fast as you and twice as much DPS? Where are these micro situations suddenly gained? Micro is made despite Marines, not because of them. Banelings force epic splitting, but there's nothing intrinsic about the Marine that makes their splitting more fun or anything, aside from the 0 damage point delay. It's why Hydras are garbage for micro because their damage point isn't unrealistically instant. The debate over whether or not Warpgate should be on equal terms with Gateway is another oft talked about red herring. At this point in the development it's not gonna happen. Why doesn't Inject Larva have cons? Why doesn't Medivac boost have cons? Why doesn't a Mule have cons? There's plenty of stuff in this game that doesn't force a sophie's choice. The Warpgate haters are really saying "I don't like Protoss aggression keeping me in check, I want my Stim timing to be stronger," or they don't like the idea that their easily acquired map control by virtue of their naturally stronger and faster basic units can be undermined intermittently. I agree 100%. Me too. The risk of an all-in coming their way is the only thing stopping Terran from ROFLstomping Protoss at the 10-12 minute mark. Econ needs to go into a Reaper, bunker(s), and potentially some turrets. In TvZ, the Zerg can econ up and then explode into unit production as the parade push begins because of the larva/hatchery mechanic. The only units Protoss can produce quickly are Gateway units and everything else takes forever in terms of build time and infrastructure. IMO stim DOES reduce microability. Protoss basically can't ever run from a fight (only Blink Stalkers can). I think people underestimate the strength, mobility, and space controlling potential of stim bio vs. gateway units. Having the ability to warp in anywhere on the map is effectively what keeps the Terran in check. Without defensive warpins to counter drops or offensive warpins to threaten the Terran with, the game would be very difficult for Protoss. If anyone has ever seen a game where Bomber is allowed to go CC first and not allined, you'll know what I'm talking about. First of all, running away is not really what I characterise of micro. Stuff like whether you decide to engage/attack or retreat are more related to decisionmaking. Micro is what happens during the battle. Now, you have a point that toss generally has a difficult time retreating. But that's actually not that much related to Stim it self, but more to the general slowness of Robotics units + Concussive (which indeed also functions as a microkiller (and a retreatkiller too a large extent)- I personally find it completley unnecesary against ranged units, but a necceasry "evil" against Chargelots). I mean, just discussing micro and "anti-micro" alot of the Terrans in this thread bring up how you can't micro against Blink Stalkers and you can't micro against Time Warp. This is true. But you also can't micro against Stim/Concussive either. I think what both sides need to do is realize that those abilities exist and position your units in a way that they're not compromised. For Protoss that means not putting yourself in a situation where you need to run away from Stim bio (get Forcefields, use Time Warp to escape, simply don't move out unless you are ready to fight, etc.) And for Terran, it means, spreading your units out so Time Warp doesn't catch all of them and trying to force a fight in a spot where the Stalkers have no easy place to Blink back into. I don't think "micro" should be the answer to everything. Somtimes the best decision you can make in a match is not to take a fight. okay but blink comes at a time before stim does stim ever come at a time where you don't have FF or TW? (the answer is no, it doesn't) It's more complicated than that. FF and TW are finite. You can cast exactly 2 Time Warps ever. And forcefields are not exactly cheap.. they require sentries which you generally don't want to produce many of. Stim on the other hand is basically free (provided you have Medivacs) and is on every single Terran bio unit. It doesn't really cost you anything additional, since you want to stim anyway for the damage output. As the army sizes get bigger that becomes more of a factor. Suddenly instead of 2-3 sentries, you need 10 sentries just to be able to FF the Terran army away and escape. That stops working... So.. the whole point of this was to discuss warpgate. I think the way that gateway units are currently designed, Warpgate is integral to the matchup. Terran mobility and ability to punish lack of Protoss mobility is very strong. It needs to be balanced out somehow, and the way this is done in SC2 is by having the warpgate mechanic. What? You need 10 SENTRIES to escape.... 4 FFs is basically all you need to cut the bio force in half unless you get 180 surrounded. Your arguement is really flawed. So stim is free because all it takes is Medivacs energy but forcefields isn't free because it takes sentry energy? WHAT? So admittedly 10 Sentries is an exaggeration. But don't try to simplify this into energy vs. energy. Stim is "free" because it provides a DPS benefit at the cost of life, which is healed incredibly efficiently by medivacs for energy (which is free). Stim is also on bio units, which you are already making. When the fight is over (assuming you lost/are losing) you boost your Medivacs home and they live. If Protoss wants forcefields, they must specifically build Sentries, which add very little to the actual fighting. In addition, each forcefield costs 50 energy and it takes a long time to regenerate that energy and use again. Add the fact that sentries can't really escape when you're losing a fight and they become a very expensive one-time use item. Sure, you can "forcefield off the army" and escape as everyone keeps saying, but practically, that's not true. Maybe the 10 minute push can be FF out for 15-30 seconds and sentries can be used to cover small retreats, but in a macro game the action usually happens in the center of the map, away from choke points, and the area is often too wide for any number of forcefields to provide a valid escape route. Just think of the last time you saw a Protoss forcefield a big Terran army away and retreat in a pro game.... You can FF a huge army and retreat You can FF a huge army and make the fight a lot more efficient You're also forgetting Guardian Shield makes shit a lot more cost effective And the fact that a great way to scout is with those hallucinated pheonixs Stim isn't free though. Not even close. You're actively losing energy and you don't get a chance to replenish it especially if you're being aggressive. And that's what you have to be against Protoss. If a Terran and sits back against any race, they're gonna get shit on.
You are all saying facts that are correct. However, they're not practically applicable in a real game.
Like I said: show me pro game examples of when FF has been used effectively in combat outside the first 10-12 minutes of a game. You just don't really see sentries as part of the Protoss army once the game gets to 3 bases. They cost 100 gas each and Forcefields don't scale as well. But MMM continues to scale very well.
If your Ghost control is good, Terran is just fine macroing up to a late game army comp. Watch Taeja/Bunny/Happy play.
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Stim + Medivac > Gateway army
Stim + Medivac + terrain < Gateway (sentry heavy) army
Stim + Medivac + surround/no terrain > Gateway army (heavy or light sentry)
Stim/Heal is not free, Sentry's are not cheap, neither is better than the other or even easier than the other
Stim is a spell that with one button you can activate it across any number of units, heal is autocast. This doesn't make Stim easier to use nor harder--its just the reality of the spell. Forcefields requires fast hands and precise placement, this doesn't make it easier to use nor harder--its just the reality of the spell.
Trying to argue about which spell is more or less free is a very tired and pointless argument since by nature it is not only subjective, but there are examples of both spells being both more impressive and less impressive than the other depending on which games you use as a case study.
The flavor of protoss is shields, teleportation, and lasers. So they were given shields/forcefields, teleportation/warp-in/blink, and lasers. Forcefields as a spell simply generates terrain. It can be very powerful at times, and other times its next to useless.
Stim is a very powerful effect and has been broken since Warcraft 1 and 2. But its still more damage efficient for terrans to grab Combat Shield instead of Stim for early timing attacks since the extra hitpoints allows them to win early fights much better than stim which needs both critical mass and heals to truly be broken.
Can we please stop this back and forth about which is more OP stim/conc/heals or charge/FF/aoe because its not actually talking about balance but is instead simply whining about core aspects of the game.
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On April 25 2014 03:17 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Stim + Medivac > Gateway army
Stim + Medivac + terrain < Gateway (sentry heavy) army
Stim + Medivac + surround/no terrain > Gateway army (heavy or light sentry)
Stim/Heal is not free, Sentry's are not cheap, neither is better than the other or even easier than the other
Stim is a spell that with one button you can activate it across any number of units, heal is autocast. This doesn't make Stim easier to use nor harder--its just the reality of the spell. Forcefields requires fast hands and precise placement, this doesn't make it easier to use nor harder--its just the reality of the spell.
Trying to argue about which spell is more or less free is a very tired and pointless argument since by nature it is not only subjective, but there are examples of both spells being both more impressive and less impressive than the other depending on which games you use as a case study.
The flavor of protoss is shields, teleportation, and lasers. So they were given shields/forcefields, teleportation/warp-in/blink, and lasers. Forcefields as a spell simply generates terrain. It can be very powerful at times, and other times its next to useless.
Stim is a very powerful effect and has been broken since Warcraft 1 and 2. But its still more damage efficient for terrans to grab Combat Shield instead of Stim for early timing attacks since the extra hitpoints allows them to win early fights much better than stim which needs both critical mass and heals to truly be broken.
Can we please stop this back and forth about which is more OP stim/conc/heals or charge/FF/aoe because its not actually talking about balance but is instead simply whining about core aspects of the game.
I'm okay with this. I'm actually arguing FOR balance.
The one thing I disagree with though is: "Forcefields requires fast hands and precise placement, this doesn't make it easier to use nor harder--its just the reality of the spell." What makes a skill hard to use then?
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On April 25 2014 03:28 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 03:17 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Stim + Medivac > Gateway army
Stim + Medivac + terrain < Gateway (sentry heavy) army
Stim + Medivac + surround/no terrain > Gateway army (heavy or light sentry)
Stim/Heal is not free, Sentry's are not cheap, neither is better than the other or even easier than the other
Stim is a spell that with one button you can activate it across any number of units, heal is autocast. This doesn't make Stim easier to use nor harder--its just the reality of the spell. Forcefields requires fast hands and precise placement, this doesn't make it easier to use nor harder--its just the reality of the spell.
Trying to argue about which spell is more or less free is a very tired and pointless argument since by nature it is not only subjective, but there are examples of both spells being both more impressive and less impressive than the other depending on which games you use as a case study.
The flavor of protoss is shields, teleportation, and lasers. So they were given shields/forcefields, teleportation/warp-in/blink, and lasers. Forcefields as a spell simply generates terrain. It can be very powerful at times, and other times its next to useless.
Stim is a very powerful effect and has been broken since Warcraft 1 and 2. But its still more damage efficient for terrans to grab Combat Shield instead of Stim for early timing attacks since the extra hitpoints allows them to win early fights much better than stim which needs both critical mass and heals to truly be broken.
Can we please stop this back and forth about which is more OP stim/conc/heals or charge/FF/aoe because its not actually talking about balance but is instead simply whining about core aspects of the game. I'm okay with this. I'm actually arguing FOR balance. The one thing I disagree with though is: "Forcefields requires fast hands and precise placement, this doesn't make it easier to use nor harder--its just the reality of the spell." What makes a skill hard to use then?
Easier or harder in comparison to effectively using stim.
When people say "stim" what they actually mean is kiting/splitting. The spell itself is the easiest spell to use in the game. Zergs would be happy if pressing one hotkey did ALL their injects for them for example.
Contrarily, when people complain about FF, they are complaining about the result of the FF and not the execution. Good FF are HARD to do. Heck, MC's dominance (and Huk's rise to fame) came on the back of their FF control in relation to everyone else.
Personally I find both skill sets entertaining to watch since I know it takes skill to land FF properly. The fight might "look" boring, but perfectly landed FF is like perfectly landed storms--it ends with lots of dead units. The problem people have with perfectly landed FF as opposed to storms is that Terran/Zerg players (like myself) still *feel* like we should be able to pull out our units while not giving the same courtesy to units mowed down by stim fire/surround surround.
Non-protoss players don't know the pain of losing game after game because you only perfectly landed 4 of the 5 forcefields you needed to land--and suddenly your army is surrounded by lings. They don't know the pain of losing ANOTHER game to a ling runby that should have been stopped by the one sentry you specifically left behind to stop backstabs just because you clicked a pixel or two too much to the left or right. They don't know how much of a champ you feel when you finally feel that rhythm to be able to actually seal off a flank, how to properly push enemy units towards you or away from you, the comfort and map awareness to be able to leave back 3 supply worth of sentry to defend counterattacks like it was a fucking BW siege tank.
All non-protoss see is forcefields dealing zero damage but killing units anyway. People grok stim and marine splits, they grok fast kiting (no one is excited by stalker/viking/marauder kiting), they grok marine drops because they can imagine how impressive infatry drops are in real life. They don't grok FF.
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Anyway saying that Sentries are useless in fight as you said DinoMight is an evidence that you don't really understand the game. Guardian Shield + FF are some of the must useful skills to have in a fight. Just that the protoss army is so strong it doesn't even need it, but in addition, it makes the battle much more one sided, I garantee it.
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On April 25 2014 03:55 Faust852 wrote:
Anyway saying that Sentries are useless in fight as you said DinoMight is an evidence that you don't really understand the game. Guardian Shield + FF are some of the must useful skills to have in a fight. Just that the protoss army is so strong it doesn't even need it, but in addition, it makes the battle much more one sided, I garantee it.
I have never known anyone attempt to argue that Stalker/Zealot without Sentries is able to beat much of anything outside of timing attacks (and even then those are all about early sentries saving up energy)
I also see very very few protoss pross maintain high sentry counts once they get past gateway tech into colossus/void/immortal play. Those that do mainly have kept the same sentries alive all game and don't actually produce them anymore.
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EPT
