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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 26 2014 04:33 Salient wrote: The popular Maru style doesn't even bother with Vikings or Ghosts. Just MMM spam all day long. Literally 3 units. Literally 3 units. Zealots, Stalkers, Colossi. Just ZSC spam all day long. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
On April 26 2014 04:28 Pursuit_ wrote: You had to scout to hold just about every all-in with 1 Rax FE in TvP and TvT, only in TvZ could you reliably hold most all-ins without scouting with the standard 1 Rax FE into Hellion Banshee. And every race has amazing hold games, we have Jaedong vs I think Mana? Where he held an unscouted proxy 2 gate with hatch first, Classic vs Parting on Habitation Station from GSL ect. Not true that you had to scout. I honestly think it was way more efficient to just do a "blind" build where you got fast blind bunkers and an ebays and instead save the mules/SCV's. Over time more and more pro's adapted that approach as well. 2 base all ins were easily defendable as well (without scanning) as long as you had spotters out on the map so you could react in time. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On April 26 2014 04:37 TheDwf wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwls_en3QJw Literally 3 units. Zealots, Stalkers, Colossi. Just ZSC spam all day long. No MSC or sentries or observers? In this one game? Most Toss get sentries, zealots, stalkers, colossi, HTs, Archons, MSC, observers, immortals, and maybe DTs in every PvT. Most zergs get muta/ling/bane/overseer/extra queens/a few infestors and finally ultras in ZvT. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 26 2014 04:43 Salient wrote: No MSC or sentries or observers? In this one game? Most Toss get sentries, zealots, stalkers, colossi, HTs, Archons, MSC, observers, immortals, and maybe DTs in every PvT. Most zergs get muta/ling/bane/overseer/extra queens/a few infestors and finally ultras in ZvT. And Maru had Mines and Vikings too, and he would have built Ghosts had he survived long enough for this, but naturally those petty details ruin your eloquent demonstration about "MMM spam," so you just cast them away. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On April 26 2014 04:43 Salient wrote: No MSC or sentries or observers? In this one game? Most Toss get sentries, zealots, stalkers, colossi, HTs, Archons, MSC, observers, immortals, and maybe DTs in every PvT. Most zergs get muta/ling/bane/overseer/extra queens/a few infestors and finally ultras in ZvT. Damn, you even make probes too ! | ||
Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
On April 26 2014 04:43 Salient wrote: No MSC or sentries or observers? In this one game? Most Toss get sentries, zealots, stalkers, colossi, HTs, Archons, MSC, observers, immortals, and maybe DTs in every PvT. Most zergs get muta/ling/bane/overseer/extra queens/a few infestors and finally ultras in ZvT. Did we decide that a race is more interesting the more different types of units you make in a typical game? | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On April 26 2014 05:00 Darkhorse wrote: Did we decide that a race is more interesting the more different types of units you make in a typical game? No, but we did apparently decide Terran players have no innovation because they only make 3 units and never try to do anything else. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On April 26 2014 05:00 Darkhorse wrote: Did we decide that a race is more interesting the more different types of units you make in a typical game? IMO, yes -- at least to some extent. It has always seemed crazy to me that half of the Terran units are only viable for cheese (e.g. Thor Drop) or in very specific and limited circumstances (e.g. a few Thors against mutas). The factory is relegated to being a flying scout in most Terran vs. X games ever played. That is a sad state of affairs, IMO. I would like to see tanks, Thor's, BCs, and Ravens have a place in standard Terran play. That would make the game more fun, IMO. | ||
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
On April 26 2014 05:07 Salient wrote: IMO, yes -- at least to some extent. It has always seemed crazy to me that half of the Terran units are only viable for cheese (e.g. Thor Drop) or in very specific and limited circumstances (e.g. a few Thors against mutas). The factory is relegated to being a flying scout in most Terran vs. X games ever played. That is a sad state of affairs, IMO. I would like to see tanks, Thor's, BCs, and Ravens have a place in standard Terran play. That would make the game more fun, IMO. The factory is only really ever a flying scout in TvP, and not really anymore with the mine buff. I don't see how going marine/marauder/medivac/mine/viking/ghost is any worse than zealot/stalker/sentry/colossus/templar in a standard TvP. You don't build carriers, we don't build BC's. It's about what's good in the matchup. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 26 2014 05:07 Salient wrote: IMO, yes -- at least to some extent. It has always seemed crazy to me that half of the Terran units are only viable for cheese (e.g. Thor Drop) or in very specific and limited circumstances (e.g. a few Thors against mutas). The factory is relegated to being a flying scout in most Terran vs. X games ever played. That is a sad state of affairs, IMO. I would like to see tanks, Thor's, BCs, and Ravens have a place in standard Terran play. That would make the game more fun, IMO. TvP was the only match-up in which the Factory was often used this way, and it's rarely the case nowadays because of Mine production. Terran would use other units in TvP if they had not been nerfed to uselessness (Hellbats) or didn't have hardcounters (Immortals, Tempests, Templars). | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On April 26 2014 05:12 TheDwf wrote: TvP was the only match-up in which the Factory was often used this way, and it's rarely the case nowadays because of Mine production. Terran would use other units in TvP if they had not been nerfed to uselessness (Hellbats) or didn't have hardcounters (Immortals, Tempests, Templars). The mine buff was a very good change, IMO. It increased variety and punishes a-moving masses of charge lots. It makes space control a bit more strategic. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On April 26 2014 05:12 TheDwf wrote: TvP was the only match-up in which the Factory was often used this way, and it's rarely the case nowadays because of Mine production. Terran would use other units in TvP if they had not been nerfed to uselessness (Hellbats) or didn't have hardcounters (Immortals, Tempests, Templars). I agree. There are way too many Protoss units that counter factory units to make the latter really viable. Immortals, Void Rays, chargelots, blink stalkers, archons,.. all of them eat mech for breakfast. Marines, marauders and medivacs, on the other hand, eat all aforementioned units for breakfast if they are not supported by either colossi or templar, which kind of forces a Terran's hand. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
I get the feeling that nobody here really has even played the race they are complaining about. On either side. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On April 26 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote: I think if all the Protoss in this thread stopped to play Terran for a month or two and all the Terrans switched to Protoss for the same amount of time, there would be a lot more common ground. I get the feeling that nobody here really has even played the race they are complaining about. On either side. What a delicious post to jump into the thread on. First, I have to say that I haven't noticed that much constructive discussion in the thread in the last few pages. That's not to disparage any single post, but rather the direction as a whole. I don't expect my current post to be very useful either, so I'll say first that in 5 days we'll have the next Aligulac report, but from the current numbers it will probably be 50/50 in TvP and ZvP and show a small ZvT imbalance in favour of Z. Yet, it will still show that the T population is way smaller, so the damage done in previous seasons is not being undone (which is also why the best terrans are still struggling to go deep in tournaments, and the rest are not present). Regarding DinoMight's question, I actually played T, Z and P (HotS beta only). I'm pretty terrible though. I main T, was most consistent with Z (Diamond) and got my highest MMR with P (cheesed into low Master in the beta). There's nothing in my experience playing Z that makes me dislike the race, but I still think Z was imba as fuck at the end of WOL and too forgiving currently in the TvZ MU. The reasons most people seem to have to call out imba (according to statistics gathered by Ghanburighan's ass), is a perception of pro games in tournaments like the GSL, proleague and major's such as DH. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 26 2014 06:02 Ghanburighan wrote: What a delicious post to jump into the thread on. First, I have to say that I haven't noticed that much constructive discussion in the thread in the last few pages. That's not to disparage any single post, but rather the direction as a whole. I don't expect my current post to be very useful either, so I'll say first that in 5 days we'll have the next Aligulac report, but from the current numbers it will probably be 50/50 in TvP and ZvP and show a small ZvT imbalance in favour of Z. Yet, it will still show that the T population is way smaller, so the damage done in previous seasons is not being undone (which is also why the best terrans are still struggling to go deep in tournaments, and the rest are not present). Regarding DinoMight's question, I actually played T, Z and P (HotS beta only). I'm pretty terrible though. I main T, was most consistent with Z (Diamond) and got my highest MMR with P (cheesed into low Master in the beta). There's nothing in my experience playing Z that makes me dislike the race, but I still think Z was imba as fuck at the end of WOL and too forgiving currently in the TvZ MU. The reasons most people seem to have to call out imba (according to statistics gathered by Ghanburighan's ass), is a perception of pro games in tournaments like the GSL, proleague and major's such as DH. I like that attitude. There is nothing as good as a self-gathered statistic. It's similar to that famous quote of Churchill: Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time. Same goes for pulling statistics out of your own ass. They are the worst arguments. Except for all the other arguments without any backup.  | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On April 26 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote: I think if all the Protoss in this thread stopped to play Terran for a month or two and all the Terrans switched to Protoss for the same amount of time, there would be a lot more common ground and a lot less arguing over pointless things like "how many units out of your tech tree do you use?" I get the feeling that nobody here really has even played the race they are complaining about. On either side. I've switched to Terran for this season. I am quite bad (even worse than my usual Protoss) but I am really enjoying playing the race. I'm also enjoying laddering more than I have for a long time. As much as I love Protoss, I was getting a little bored. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On April 26 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote: I think if all the Protoss in this thread stopped to play Terran for a month or two and all the Terrans switched to Protoss for the same amount of time, there would be a lot more common ground and a lot less arguing over pointless things like "how many units out of your tech tree do you use?" I get the feeling that nobody here really has even played the race they are complaining about. On either side. I find Protoss to be the most difficult race to play. Was a T player in WoL, am a Zerg player now. But push comes to shove T is still the race I will lean to the most if money was on the line. Protoss was just too hard for me to learn. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
I just find it really hard to take someone seriously about playing Protoss when they suggest things like "Charge should have to be assigned individually and not autocast." Like, bro... do you have any idea how much clicking that would actually entail? Same with people who say Terran imba because Marines etc. blah blah. There are so many things that you can just outright DIE to that keep you in check as Terran. I actually think it balances the game out. Yeah Marines with Stim and Medivacs are strong, but there are a lot of infrastructure requirements and it takes time to get to that point. I died so many time to like, a MsC, a Zealot and 2 Stalkers. So you need to be diligent about scouting and make bunkers/turrets as needed. If you could just make stim bio without having to worry about getting allined Terran would win like 70% of the time. People should really try the other races. Heck, I think everyone should just play random for a month. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
G1 Maru brilliantly executes a pressure build that like 5 other people in the world, period, are capable of pulling off, and what does he get for it? A pseudo-stabilized game where he has a lead that can be thrown away with one terrible engagement. G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly. Yeah yeah he was greedy, whatever. This is T vs. Z/P in a nutshell. The Terran has to be a thousand times better, and that doesn't guarantee him shit. The Protoss just walks in and says "sup I have stalkers and a MSC" and the game could end, or the Zerg with Roaches. What's the most standardly aggressive macro opening Terran has in TvZ, 6 hellion/2 reaper push? That's pretty fucking funny, isn't it, considering Queens and Roaches are basically immune to Hellions and Reapers, as are all structures, and the only way to find out if you'll win the Hellion positioning battle is to commit with them, ensuring that you lose the resources either way. Wouldn't it be funny if Roaches and Stalkers had -80% damage vs. buildings and Marauders and Stalkers had no blink? I think that'd be pretty funny. Maru outclassed soO so hard in unit control, if the world was fair, winning g1 would have given him the entire series right there on the spot. MMA gets beaten by MC in straight up macro games. Maru, the best Terran in the world with possibly the best TvP in the world, dies to San, who's like, what, top 15 Protoss? (Aligucal notwithstanding) This can only possibly mean that MC and San are really really good, and coincidentally are getting some of the best results of their careers right now! Just like many other Protoss! This couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that Terran is a fucking unplayable race. This is how it used to be in WOL and very early HOTS - Terran is the hardest race to play mechanically, but if you're good enough to do it, your reward is that sometimes you're a little bit OP. Your units can perform miracles. (other times there's still BL/infestor and Protoss mass Colossus late game) This is how it is now - Terran is the hardest race to play mechanically, but if you're the best in the fucking world at it, bar none, your reward is perennially getting into RO8s instead of not getting into the offline portion of the tournament, period. I'll look up the DH Bucharest results to have a giggle about Innovation dropping out in RO16, if he gets that far. | ||
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